Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but
> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're
> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel,
> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to
> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of
> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense.
>
> = MOTIVATION =
> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the
> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is
> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they
> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page
> structure.
>
> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource
> information, with all details and moving informations that require
> updates.
>
>
> = PROBLEMS =
> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it too
> much.
>
> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections.
>
> == ABOUT ==
> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only
> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many
> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details.
> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be
> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later).
>
> == DOWNLOAD ==
> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page
> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely,
> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The
> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should
> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is
> really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure.
>
> I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a
> while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try
> to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really
> complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that
> and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my
> temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means to
> get it running as it was not helpful for Fedora, just for
> Debian/Ubuntu and there we should have packages!
>
> == SUPPORT ==
> all fine, I'm listing it here so people don't think I forgot about it.
>
> == CONTRIBUTE ==
> Could someone ever read it all? I tried hard, but it took me a couple
> of attempts to really do it. Boring, too much, not objective at all,
> full of distractions.
>
> Source: not something for brochure as it is. Too much, it should be a
> wiki, and maybe more than one page. It replicates some information
> from DOWNLOAD. At most we can explain some umbrella folders like
> THEMES, MISC...
>
> Building: not something for brochure. Replicates what's in DOWNLOAD
> and svn.enlightenment.org.
>
> Conventions: need to be more objective, straight to the point. The
> lead text should be one short paragraph.
> - Languages: need to be more objective. No point in phrases like "For
> better or worse it is the one language most of us know better than any
> other"
> - Coding Style: need to be objective. Just say one should respect
> existing style in that file otherwise patches will be rejected. Link
> to trac with actual definition of coding style and examples,
> explaining of uncrustify and configuration for various editors --
> again, in TRAC.
> - Source Trees: need to be more objective, with the non obvious
> things. It's fine to briefly explain our usage of src/{lib,bin}, data
> and such, but we need to be concise and right to the point.
> - Licenses & Copyright: really need to be more objective. Say we have
> code in BSD and LGPL and patches to each project should respect the
> project license. These days worth noting that we require no copyright
> assignment and copyright holders are stored in AUTHORS and not in each
> file header.
>
> Join Us: really need to keep it straight to the point. Things like
> id_rsa and info.txt are stuff that should be documented elsewhere. I'd
> say something longer than 3 paragraphs is no go, we need to keep it
> short to be accessible. 1 paragraph would be amazing, but we can have
> 2 extra with more details, like pointer to wiki pages describing "easy
> hacks", "debugging techniques" and so on. Commit access is something
> we'll evaluate and even propose given contributions, so nothing we
> should put on our brochure.
>
> == CONTACT ==
> Pointless as is. Replicates most of SUPPORT in a worse shape (yeah, I
> know it was there before). I know we all like the dev map and the
> people list, but it should not be there. Let's instead add a box in
> SUPPORT with a link, something like "We have contributors around the
> world, you can check who are them and
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you get those error messages until raster manually recreates your account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
one additional thing that needs some major love is exchange. It needs to be rewritten and worked into the main site.. it looks like shit and the maintainer left the project. Also it was built off of some random framework. The new solution should not be framework based because that just makes things more and more difficult for us. IF anyone is willing to help feel free to jump in! also the donate page needs some love, I would love to start back up bounties as well as be able to cover various other different things for the project! thanks again it's been long over due! Ian "Inc" C. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:51 PM, David Seikel wrote: > All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally > I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no > one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is > error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one > BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the > focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to > actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. > I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you > get those error messages until raster manually recreates your > account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from > raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug > tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. > > So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. > > > -- > The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper > David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a > Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your > business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev > ___ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:51 PM, David Seikel wrote: > All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally > I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no > one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is > error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one > BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the > focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to > actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. > I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you > get those error messages until raster manually recreates your > account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from > raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug > tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. > > So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. Yes, trac is another issue. Let's keep this thread about the contents of the brochure. Look & Feel, Trac and packages are another thread. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: barbi...@gmail.com Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Monday 08 November 2010 19:02:27 Ian Caldwell wrote: > one additional thing that needs some major love is exchange. It needs to be > rewritten and worked into the main site.. it looks like shit and the > maintainer left the project. Also it was built off of some random > framework. The new solution should not be framework based because that > just makes things more and more difficult for us. IF anyone is willing to > help feel free to jump in! also the donate page needs some love, I would > love to start back up bounties as well as be able to cover various other > different things for the project! > thanks again it's been long over due! How about trying to make it part of the openDesktop.org stuff, like gtk- apps.org or kde-apps.org? -- Raphael Kubo da Costa ProFUSION embedded systems http://profusion.mobi -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Raphael Kubo da Costa wrote: > On Monday 08 November 2010 19:02:27 Ian Caldwell wrote: >> one additional thing that needs some major love is exchange. It needs to be >> rewritten and worked into the main site.. it looks like shit and the >> maintainer left the project. Also it was built off of some random >> framework. The new solution should not be framework based because that >> just makes things more and more difficult for us. IF anyone is willing to >> help feel free to jump in! also the donate page needs some love, I would >> love to start back up bounties as well as be able to cover various other >> different things for the project! >> thanks again it's been long over due! > > How about trying to make it part of the openDesktop.org stuff, like gtk- > apps.org or kde-apps.org? Well, OT for this thread. (there were reasons around exchange, we can list it in another thread) -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: barbi...@gmail.com Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:02:27 -0800 Ian Caldwell said: while i agree - this is another topic imho entirely :) > one additional thing that needs some major love is exchange. It needs to be > rewritten and worked into the main site.. it looks like shit and the > maintainer left the project. Also it was built off of some random framework. > The new solution should not be framework based because that just makes > things more and more difficult for us. IF anyone is willing to help feel > free to jump in! also the donate page needs some love, I would love to start > back up bounties as well as be able to cover various other different things > for the project! > thanks again it's been long over due! > Ian "Inc" C. donate page - agreed too. should be brought up to snuff and made part of the main brochure site. a donate page along WITH information on what we are doing with the funds (eg we are collecting donations 1. to keep our servers alive (keep a rainy day fund for when they break), 2. to fund bounties for students and such, and then a list of planned projects+bounties etc.) > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:51 PM, David Seikel wrote: > > > All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally > > I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no > > one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is > > error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one > > BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the > > focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to > > actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. > > I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you > > get those error messages until raster manually recreates your > > account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from > > raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug > > tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. > > > > So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. > > > > > > -- > > The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper > > David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a > > Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your > > business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev > > ___ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > -- > The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper > David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a > Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your > business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev > ___ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri said: > Hi all, > > Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but > looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're > not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, > graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to > highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of > finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. > > = MOTIVATION = > Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the > essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is > important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they > don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page > structure. > > Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource > information, with all details and moving informations that require > updates. > > > = PROBLEMS = > Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it too > much. > > Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. > > == ABOUT == > Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only > place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many > references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. > That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be > offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to shuffle here for the sake of shuffling. > == DOWNLOAD == > Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page > that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, > being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The > current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should > go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is > really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure. > > I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a > while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try > to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really > complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that > and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my > temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means to > get it running as it was not helpful for Fedora, just for > Debian/Ubuntu and there we should have packages! this is where i totally disagree. someone heard of e and was told it was good - or efl etc. and the internet has an attention span of about 2 seconds... they want to find where to get it right away with minimum of fuss. fact is any NEW release we do will take days, weeks or months to make it into any distro. ubuntu has 6 months release cycles. debian takes years between releases so current stable debian wont get a new version, if that's what you are on. fedora - same. 6 months or so, etc. do we just point to "hey you need to wait 3 months to get packages". or we do the usual and make tarballs available. in fact making the tarballs available of our releases *IS OUR PRIMARY TASK* i'ts even MORE important than the rest of the website. it *IS* our whole store and its merchandise. the brochure is begin handed out to people on the street they need to come into thew store and instantly see what they can get and where. the only thing i'd agree with is download maybe moving to the main index page! they are the #1 priority. we provide tarballs. getting them into distros is another matter. once there listing how to get efl/e per distro is a good thing "apt-get install X, emerge Y, pacman Z, yum ZZ" etc. yes - it may be a bit of a moving target, but brochures do change and get updated ad products, availability and distributors do. > == SUPPORT == > all fine, I'm listing it here so people don't think I forgot about it. > > == CONTRIBUTE == > Could someone ever read it all? I tried hard, but it took me a couple > of attempts to really do it. Boring, too much, not objective at all, > full of distractions. every page inst meant to be read from beginning to end - it has sections to find what you are after. it indeed may be a bit full of content, but at least it's up to date and accurate. > Source: not something for brochure as it is. Too much, it should be a > wiki, and maybe more than one page. It replicates some information > from DOWNLOAD. At most we can explain some umbrella folders like > THEMES, MISC... well put it there. > Building: not something for brochure. Replicates what's in DOWNLOAD > and svn.enlightenment.org. i'm going to kill svn.enlightenment.org content. thats why it moved there. and it only covers a bit of whats on download. > Conventions: need to be more objective, straight to the point. The > lead text should be one short paragraph. > - Languages: need to be more objective. No point in
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Tue, 9 Nov 2010 06:51:38 +1000 David Seikel said: > All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally > I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no > one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is > error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one > BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the > focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to > actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. > I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you > get those error messages until raster manually recreates your > account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from > raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug > tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. > > So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. indeed. as such i CANT re-create your account. i can only delete it. YOU have to re-create. i did this once for 1 person and their account then worked. i don't know what/why. but i can't just "fix it". someone who knows what the issue is needs to do so, but i dont have the time or patience to go digging through trac to figure it out. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
i promised some images/icons/logos/etc will talk to raster as soon as you guys figure out what you want/need and I have some time. On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2010 06:51:38 +1000 David Seikel said: > > > All well and good, but can someone with a clue fix up TRAC? Personally > > I have no clue about TRAC. If my recent experience is any guide, no > > one can just create an account and start using it, all they get is > > error messages, no ability to comment on or create stuff. That's one > > BIG turn off right there. I was trying to do the right thing about the > > focus bugs, but failed completely to be able to figure out how to > > actually enter any useful text, and I'm a very experienced developer. > > I even asked on the mailing list with no reply other than "yeah, you > > get those error messages until raster manually recreates your > > account". Not even a "i've fix0red your account dave" message from > > raster. Certainly no "the button to make comments or create new bug > > tickets is in THIS bleeding obvious place you blind moron" reply. > > > > So linking things to TRAC is kinda pointless, until it works right. > > indeed. as such i CANT re-create your account. i can only delete it. YOU > have > to re-create. i did this once for 1 person and their account then worked. i > don't know what/why. but i can't just "fix it". someone who knows what the > issue is needs to do so, but i dont have the time or patience to go digging > through trac to figure it out. > > -- > - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com > > > > -- > The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper > David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a > Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your > business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev > ___ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- Luchezar P. Petkov http://luchko.net -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their feelings. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > said: > >> Hi all, >> >> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but >> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're >> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, >> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to >> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of >> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. >> >> = MOTIVATION = >> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the >> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is >> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they >> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page >> structure. >> >> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource >> information, with all details and moving informations that require >> updates. >> >> >> = PROBLEMS = >> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it too >> much. >> >> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. >> >> == ABOUT == >> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only >> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many >> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. >> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be >> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). > > well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to shuffle here > for the sake of shuffling. The problem is that we have too much technologies. There we list just 2 graphics (evas/edje) and it's too much already. IMO about page should be simpler, to let users grok what's E/EFL and then lead to more specific bits. The current content is terrifying, do some experiment: ask some random USER (as it's not specifically a developer page) to read it and look at their face while they do it. >> == DOWNLOAD == >> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page >> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, >> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The >> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should >> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is >> really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure. >> >> I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a >> while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try >> to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really >> complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that >> and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my >> temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means to >> get it running as it was not helpful for Fedora, just for >> Debian/Ubuntu and there we should have packages! > > this is where i totally disagree. someone heard of e and was told it was good > - > or efl etc. and the internet has an attention span of about 2 seconds... they > want to find where to get it right away with minimum of fuss. fact is any NEW > release we do will take days, weeks or months to make it into any distro. > ubuntu has 6 months release cycles. debian takes years between releases so > current stable debian wont get a new version, if that's what you are on. > fedora > - same. 6 months or so, etc. do we just point to "hey you need to wait 3 > months > to get packages". or we do the usual and make tarballs available. in fact > making the tarballs available of our releases *IS OUR PRIMARY TASK* i'ts even > MORE important than the rest of the website. it *IS* our whole store and its > merchandise. the brochure is begin handed out to people on the street they > need to come into thew store and instantly see what they can get and where. > the > only thing i'd agree with is download maybe moving to the main index page! > they > are the #1 priority. we provide tarballs. getting them into distros is another > matter. once there listing how to get efl/e per distro is a good thing > "apt-get > install X, emerge Y, pacman Z, yum ZZ" etc. yes - it may be a bit of a moving > target, but brochures do change and get updated ad products, availability and > distributors do. I totally disagree with you here, and I do have how to prove you wrong. :-) You just need to try to understand it in an unbiased form. First of all, the information is important. For PACKAGERS. We must keep it, for them. Secondly. Are we being effective with such page? - Try to find a single user that ever managed to install E/EFL from that page, or similar pages. I doubt you'
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
Hello, I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, perl, sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, and with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles helping out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used up over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, that fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, whats needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also not a professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I pretty much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. Thanks, Jess On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > feelings. > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler > wrote: >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri >> said: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're >>> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, >>> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to >>> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of >>> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. >>> >>> = MOTIVATION = >>> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the >>> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is >>> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they >>> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page >>> structure. >>> >>> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource >>> information, with all details and moving informations that require >>> updates. >>> >>> >>> = PROBLEMS = >>> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it too >>> much. >>> >>> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. >>> >>> == ABOUT == >>> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only >>> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many >>> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. >>> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be >>> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). >> >> well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to shuffle here >> for the sake of shuffling. > > The problem is that we have too much technologies. There we list just > 2 graphics (evas/edje) and it's too much already. > > IMO about page should be simpler, to let users grok what's E/EFL and > then lead to more specific bits. The current content is terrifying, do > some experiment: ask some random USER (as it's not specifically a > developer page) to read it and look at their face while they do it. > > >>> == DOWNLOAD == >>> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page >>> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, >>> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The >>> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should >>> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is >>> really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure. >>> >>> I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a >>> while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try >>> to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really >>> complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that >>> and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my >>> temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means to >>> get it running as it was not helpful for Fedora, just for >>> Debian/Ubuntu and there we should have packages! >> >> this is where i totally disagree. someone heard of e and was told it was >> good - >> or efl etc. and the internet has an attention span of about 2 seconds... they >> want to find where to get it right away with minimum of fuss. fact is any NEW >> release we do will take days, weeks or months to make it into any distro. >> ubuntu has 6 months release cycles. debian takes years between releases so >> current stable debian wont get a new version, if that's what you are on. >> fedora >> - same. 6 months or so, etc. do we just point to "hey you need to wait 3 >> months >> to get packages". or we do the usual and make tarballs available. in fact >> making th
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 21:36:27 -0500 Jesse Charbneau said: website doesnt need any amazing web skills. it just needs content shuffling. there's. so you don't really need those. the site is in svn - the rest is on the wiki (trac). again - wiki markup. :) if you can figure out why trac does the crazy shit it does though (like lose attachment db entries or simply have new accounts not work etc.)... that would be awesome though - your skills may be useful there.. but trac is python + mysql. so it depends if that's your thing or not. > Hello, > I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, perl, > sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, and > with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles helping > out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used up > over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, that > fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). > > Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, whats > needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with > whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also not a > professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if > proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as > well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I pretty > much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. that's always good. > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: for some reason your reply has been lost in my mailbox. damn! so i'll reply to the reply... :) > > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > > feelings. > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler > > wrote: > >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > >> said: > >> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but > >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're > >>> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, > >>> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to > >>> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of > >>> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. > >>> > >>> = MOTIVATION = > >>> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the > >>> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is > >>> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they > >>> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page > >>> structure. > >>> > >>> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource > >>> information, with all details and moving informations that require > >>> updates. > >>> > >>> > >>> = PROBLEMS = > >>> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it too > >>> much. > >>> > >>> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. > >>> > >>> == ABOUT == > >>> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only > >>> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many > >>> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. > >>> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be > >>> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). > >> > >> well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to shuffle > >> here for the sake of shuffling. > > > > The problem is that we have too much technologies. There we list just > > 2 graphics (evas/edje) and it's too much already. > > > > IMO about page should be simpler, to let users grok what's E/EFL and > > then lead to more specific bits. The current content is terrifying, do > > some experiment: ask some random USER (as it's not specifically a > > developer page) to read it and look at their face while they do it. > > > > > >>> == DOWNLOAD == > >>> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page > >>> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, > >>> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The > >>> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should > >>> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is > >>> really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure. > >>> > >>> I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a > >>> while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try > >>> to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really > >>> complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that > >>> and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my > >>> temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means t
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
here's what we in all honesty Have to do. We need to ignore all the current date, better yet move to e.org/old and we need to recreate a completely BRAND new website, don't use any existing contest, just adapt and design with a whole new approach in mind. Also there needs to be a team of approximately 5-7 people (max) involved. We also need to be the understanding that NOT everyone is going to be happy with the end result. It needs to be a modern design with modern technologies similar to how drupal did their major redesign. Also all code needs to be recreated none of the old stuff used, and the new code needs to well commented and easy for joe blow two years down the line to understand it. I'm willing to head up the project. I have an idea and with a few select members working on a better end result it will be better in the end. If we have any major questions of course it'll be put to the group... The first step is all of the web designers interested in helping I think it would be extremely helpful if you made mockups of what you'd like the home page of E to look like, from there we can all take a vote and make modifications as need be... If someone disagrees feel free to speak it, but this is the best plan of action in my opinion. Also I know people dislike the idea of this, but for the fact of extensibility, I think it would be best to use a framework such as drupal for the fact that #1 it comes with multilanguage, support and various other features that we really don't need to recreate if need be. Also it comes with roles so we can have designated people to post news, designated people to maintain the main site etc. Lets face it... Gone are the days of updating news via SVN posts... that's a bit archaic. I'm sorry. Feel free to flame me if ya like. Ian "Inc" C On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Jesse Charbneau wrote: > Hello, > I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, perl, > sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, and > with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles helping > out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used up > over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, that > fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). > > > Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, whats > needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with > whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also not > a professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if > proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as > well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I pretty > much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. > > > Thanks, > Jess > > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > > feelings. > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler > wrote: > >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > >> said: > >> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but > >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're > >>> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, > >>> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to > >>> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of > >>> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. > >>> > >>> = MOTIVATION = > >>> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the > >>> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is > >>> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they > >>> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page > >>> structure. > >>> > >>> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource > >>> information, with all details and moving informations that require > >>> updates. > >>> > >>> > >>> = PROBLEMS = > >>> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted it > too > >>> much. > >>> > >>> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. > >>> > >>> == ABOUT == > >>> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only > >>> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many > >>> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. > >>> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be > >>> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). > >> > >> well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to shuffle > here > >> for the sake of shuffling. > > > > The problem is that we have too much technologies. There we list just > > 2 graphics (evas/edje) and it's too much already. > > > >
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
our site does not need reshuffling that's what we seem to do all the time, we "reshuffle" the site and it turns out worse and worse and worse. It needs to be demolished and recreated from the ground up. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 21:36:27 -0500 Jesse Charbneau > said: > > website doesnt need any amazing web skills. it just needs content > shuffling. > there's. so you don't really need those. the site is in svn - the rest is > on > the wiki (trac). again - wiki markup. :) if you can figure out why trac > does > the crazy shit it does though (like lose attachment db entries or simply > have > new accounts not work etc.)... that would be awesome though - your skills > may > be useful there.. but trac is python + mysql. so it depends if that's your > thing or not. > > > Hello, > > I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, > perl, > > sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, > and > > with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles > helping > > out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used > up > > over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, > that > > fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). > > > > Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, > whats > > needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with > > whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also > not a > > professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if > > proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as > > well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I > pretty > > much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. > > that's always good. > > > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > for some reason your reply has been lost in my mailbox. damn! so i'll reply > to > the reply... :) > > > > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > > > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > > > feelings. > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler < > ras...@rasterman.com> > > > wrote: > > >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > >> said: > > >> > > >>> Hi all, > > >>> > > >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, > but > > >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're > > >>> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, > > >>> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to > > >>> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of > > >>> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. > > >>> > > >>> = MOTIVATION = > > >>> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the > > >>> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is > > >>> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they > > >>> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page > > >>> structure. > > >>> > > >>> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource > > >>> information, with all details and moving informations that require > > >>> updates. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> = PROBLEMS = > > >>> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted > it too > > >>> much. > > >>> > > >>> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. > > >>> > > >>> == ABOUT == > > >>> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only > > >>> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many > > >>> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. > > >>> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be > > >>> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). > > >> > > >> well about is this technologies page... effectively. no need to > shuffle > > >> here for the sake of shuffling. > > > > > > The problem is that we have too much technologies. There we list just > > > 2 graphics (evas/edje) and it's too much already. > > > > > > IMO about page should be simpler, to let users grok what's E/EFL and > > > then lead to more specific bits. The current content is terrifying, do > > > some experiment: ask some random USER (as it's not specifically a > > > developer page) to read it and look at their face while they do it. > > > > > > > > >>> == DOWNLOAD == > > >>> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a > page > > >>> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, > > >>> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The > > >>> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should > > >>> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is > > >>> really a moving target and no
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:10:51 -0800 Ian Caldwell said: create the site first... THEN we'll consider if it can be used or not. we are NOt tearing down e.org right when we are releasing EFL. hell no. not happening. it stays and gets content and reshuffling. if in parallel you want to create a next-gen site.. then do that - but its a parallel project. as such dresb did this for the current ste, and before that i did it, and before that someone else did it and before that.. and so on back in history. i'd be more than happy not to have to spend my time on the website. i have enough to do. don't get me wrong. but i want it to be quality. in design. in look. in feel as well as content and layout. frankly the "code" used to run the site - i couldn't care less (as long as if it needs to be changed, it can be, easily). every scms that has been tried always has gotchas - can't format pages in a certain way, can't do something else, is slow, creates lag for website update.. or something. that's why in the end i wrote the php setup we have. it's simple and works. it's really just helper funcs. no major infra. tried drupal. tried joomla. tried mambo. have trac (bugs with things and slow), tried others too. i am no fan of going into scms's again. nb - we have multi-lang support on e.org - i wrote that. thats why the pages are en-* (english) and u can add de-* zh-* ko-* etc. (1 per lang). but fact is.. you don't see that done. too much content to go translate and keep up to date. > here's what we in all honesty Have to do. We need to ignore all the current > date, better yet move to e.org/old and we need to recreate a completely > BRAND new website, don't use any existing contest, just adapt and design > with a whole new approach in mind. Also there needs to be a team of > approximately 5-7 people (max) involved. We also need to be the > understanding that NOT everyone is going to be happy with the end result. It > needs to be a modern design with modern technologies similar to how drupal > did their major redesign. Also all code needs to be recreated none of the > old stuff used, and the new code needs to well commented and easy for joe > blow two years down the line to understand it. I'm willing to head up the > project. I have an idea and with a few select members working on a better > end result it will be better in the end. If we have any major questions of > course it'll be put to the group... The first step is all of the web > designers interested in helping I think it would be extremely helpful if you > made mockups of what you'd like the home page of E to look like, from there > we can all take a vote and make modifications as need be... > If someone disagrees feel free to speak it, but this is the best plan of > action in my opinion. Also I know people dislike the idea of this, but for > the fact of extensibility, I think it would be best to use a framework such > as drupal for the fact that #1 it comes with multilanguage, support and > various other features that we really don't need to recreate if need be. > Also it comes with roles so we can have designated people to post news, > designated people to maintain the main site etc. Lets face it... Gone are > the days of updating news via SVN posts... that's a bit archaic. I'm sorry. > Feel free to flame me if ya like. > Ian "Inc" C > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Jesse Charbneau wrote: > > > Hello, > > I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, perl, > > sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, and > > with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles helping > > out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used up > > over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, that > > fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). > > > > > > Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, whats > > needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with > > whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also not > > a professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if > > proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as > > well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I pretty > > much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Jess > > > > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > > > > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > > > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > > > feelings. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler > > wrote: > > >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > >> said: > > >> > > >>> Hi all, > > >>> > > >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, but > > >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we'r
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:12:27 -0800 Ian Caldwell said: > our site does not need reshuffling that's what we seem to do all the time, > we "reshuffle" the site and it turns out worse and worse and worse. It needs > to be demolished and recreated from the ground up. we've done that enough with no positive results either. the problem is you have too many cooks. too many people with different opinions and we have no single webmaster who takes on job of being king of the website and making it clean and neat and filled with content that's useful etc. - no one does it. people have volunteered before... but no one has come through (for long enough). all they need is svn access and they can modify the site. we've tried scms's and that hasnt turned out really that great either. wiki doesnt get attention either even though "anyone can modify it". nothing works. no one does it. so until such a time as we have that person who stick around AND is reliable AND does the work... it will people butting heads on what they think is important or should be the case. > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 21:36:27 -0500 Jesse Charbneau > > said: > > > > website doesnt need any amazing web skills. it just needs content > > shuffling. > > there's. so you don't really need those. the site is in svn - the rest is > > on > > the wiki (trac). again - wiki markup. :) if you can figure out why trac > > does > > the crazy shit it does though (like lose attachment db entries or simply > > have > > new accounts not work etc.)... that would be awesome though - your skills > > may > > be useful there.. but trac is python + mysql. so it depends if that's your > > thing or not. > > > > > Hello, > > > I spend most of my days in web land supporting/debugging java, php, > > perl, > > > sh (mainly tomcat, apache, mysql, etc). I’m wrapping up a side project, > > and > > > with the holiday season coming up I’m sure I could spend some cycles > > helping > > > out (least I could do considering the kickin’ libs and support I’ve used > > up > > > over the years - literally Ecore_Threads is saving my arse right now, > > that > > > fork pipe thing I had rolled up blew) ;-). > > > > > > Email me directly once things have been settled regarding priorities, > > whats > > > needs updating, etc and I can setup something on my server or work with > > > whomever controls that to dummy up the pages somewhere. While I’m also > > not a > > > professional writer/copy person, I can do a fair enough job, so if > > > proofreading / layout work is needed, I could probably help with that as > > > well. Should also mention that English is my primary language and I > > pretty > > > much suck at all others (minus programming) :-P. > > > > that's always good. > > > > > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > > > for some reason your reply has been lost in my mailbox. damn! so i'll reply > > to > > the reply... :) > > > > > > Well, I'll reply this mail with quite a bit of sadness... likely we'll > > > > go nowhere from what you wrote. Maybe others can also reply with their > > > > feelings. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Carsten Haitzler < > > ras...@rasterman.com> > > > > wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:32:54 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > > >> said: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi all, > > > >>> > > > >>> Raster is trying to solve our website problems by doing some work, > > but > > > >>> looking at it from an outsider point of view (I've asked some) we're > > > >>> not getting much better. I'm not even referring to look and feel, > > > >>> graphics or similar inconsistencies, but contents. I'd like to > > > >>> highlight the problems and propose a solution, that I'd take care of > > > >>> finding someone to implement soon on ProFUSION's expense. > > > >>> > > > >>> = MOTIVATION = > > > >>> Raster correctly want to keep website as a brochure, with the > > > >>> essential and move more detailed stuff to trac. This is wise, and is > > > >>> important to outsiders when they want to know what is E, EFL and they > > > >>> don't have much time or patient to figure out using deep nested page > > > >>> structure. > > > >>> > > > >>> Trac's wiki, on the other hand, would serve as full fledge resource > > > >>> information, with all details and moving informations that require > > > >>> updates. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> = PROBLEMS = > > > >>> Summary: Due legacy, pride or other unsolved problems we've crufted > > it too > > > >>> much. > > > >>> > > > >>> Each page problem is listed below in separate sections. > > > >>> > > > >>> == ABOUT == > > > >>> Cruft came due it being the first of new page sets. It was the only > > > >>> place to talk about and we did it all in once. Check how many > > > >>> references to our libraries we have there, and the level of details. > > > >>> That is too much for an "about" page. Much of the details should be > > > >>> offloaded to a "TECHNOLOGIES" pag
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
Sorry Gustavo I know this is offtopic, I'll try to be brief. On Martes 09 Noviembre 2010 01:10:51 Ian Caldwell escribió: > here's what we in all honesty Have to do. We need to ignore all the current > date, better yet move to e.org/old and we need to recreate a completely > BRAND new website, don't use any existing contest, just adapt and design > with a whole new approach in mind. I tried to do that with the e.org/dev/ folder. Programming-wise is completely different, I wouldn't use everything. There is quite a few useful and isolated code. It was richer in earlier revisions design and content wise than the latest. But website development, design, content writing and editing (along with wiki and forum content writing and administration) is a never-ending, annoying, thankless, glory-less job at an open source project, which is why... > Also there needs to be a team of > approximately 5-7 people (max) involved. Is an excellent idea. I would love to participate in such team provided that the workload consists of small, specific tasks. I already burnt myself with my long term planning. I don't think using a large framework/CMS for the brochure pages is necessary or a good idea. The brochures were meant to be small static pages with little dynamic content which is simply aggregated from services like exchange, planet- e or trac. The defunct dev folder has some useful code for that which can be reused. Some of it is already in the current site. The real problem is time, the final release is right around the corner and I think polishing the current website (content, html, css) will get us much further. The current site was never what I had in mind as the end product, specially aesthetically. But to be honest I think the wiki (organization and content) is much more important, even the old wiki is better organized and looking than the current one. I don't non-admins can even create pages currently. -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Raphael Kubo da Costa wrote: > On Monday 08 November 2010 19:02:27 Ian Caldwell wrote: >> one additional thing that needs some major love is exchange. It needs to be >> rewritten and worked into the main site.. it looks like shit and the >> maintainer left the project. Also it was built off of some random >> framework. The new solution should not be framework based because that >> just makes things more and more difficult for us. IF anyone is willing to >> help feel free to jump in! also the donate page needs some love, I would >> love to start back up bounties as well as be able to cover various other >> different things for the project! >> thanks again it's been long over due! > > How about trying to make it part of the openDesktop.org stuff, like gtk- > apps.org or kde-apps.org? +1 Vincent -- The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] web site contents
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 1:59 AM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 21:36:27 -0500 Jesse Charbneau > said: >> On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > for some reason your reply has been lost in my mailbox. damn! so i'll reply to > the reply... :) > [...] >> >>> == DOWNLOAD == >> >>> Ouch, we're trying to solve one problem (lack of packages) with a page >> >>> that is not that helpful at all. This page should go, completely, >> >>> being replaced with a "TECHNOLOGIES" page (more about it later). The >> >>> current contents, such as Debian dependencies, and build order should >> >>> go to Trac to help with future packagers (Arch? BSD?), but this is >> >>> really a moving target and not something we should have in a brochure. >> >>> >> >>> I know at least Raster will be against that. But please stop for a >> >>> while and think why we need that. We should fix that problem and try >> >>> to get packages on distros. The current documentation is really >> >>> complex, it's hard if not impossible to expect users will read that >> >>> and get it right. For instance I just followed that to get it on my >> >>> temporary Fedora box and it was a no go, I resorted to other means to >> >>> get it running as it was not helpful for Fedora, just for >> >>> Debian/Ubuntu and there we should have packages! >> >> >> >> this is where i totally disagree. someone heard of e and was told it was >> >> good - or efl etc. and the internet has an attention span of about 2 >> >> seconds... they want to find where to get it right away with minimum of >> >> fuss. fact is any NEW release we do will take days, weeks or months to >> >> make it into any distro. ubuntu has 6 months release cycles. debian takes >> >> years between releases so current stable debian wont get a new version, if >> >> that's what you are on. fedora >> >> - same. 6 months or so, etc. do we just point to "hey you need to wait 3 >> >> months to get packages". or we do the usual and make tarballs available. >> >> in fact making the tarballs available of our releases *IS OUR PRIMARY >> >> TASK* i'ts even MORE important than the rest of the website. it *IS* our >> >> whole store and its merchandise. the brochure is begin handed out to >> >> people on the street they need to come into thew store and instantly see >> >> what they can get and where. the only thing i'd agree with is download >> >> maybe moving to the main index page! they are the #1 priority. we provide >> >> tarballs. getting them into distros is another matter. once there listing >> >> how to get efl/e per distro is a good thing "apt-get install X, emerge Y, >> >> pacman Z, yum ZZ" etc. yes - it may be a bit of a moving target, but >> >> brochures do change and get updated ad products, availability and >> >> distributors do. >> > >> > I totally disagree with you here, and I do have how to prove you >> > wrong. :-) You just need to try to understand it in an unbiased form. >> > >> > First of all, the information is important. For PACKAGERS. We must >> > keep it, for them. > > we need it for much more than packagers. if i don't find a place i can > download > the software from in about 10 seconds. i give up. i don't bother. it's too > hard. this is normally after trying apt-get install . so > packaging info is already going to be tried. but the information is HELLISHLY > IMPORTANT for everyone. packagers will always be behind our releases. fact is > you have companies like samsung and others whose FIRST port of call isnt > looking for distro packages - it's looking for tarballs of source. once our > stuff is packaged - our download page is not even useful anymore as people > already get it direct from their distro, but until that point, it's the only > reliable place to get our releases. > > need i say more: http://www.kernel.org/ > > thats what people CARE ABOUT. do most users go to kernel.org to get their > linux > kernel? no - its packaged and build by a distro, but that is the primary > purpose of the kernel developer team - to produce the source tarballs. that is > our primary purpose as well. thus it is a major thing that has to be in big > bold links on our site and dead-easy to find/get to. Well, you nailed it... but you consider it to the wrong point. We'll keep our tarballs, always. They will be in the downloads.enlightenment.org, that we can link from our site. But all you wrote there, as you wrote, is just useless and brings nothing good. All the information about Debian dependencies and instructions on how to build? Check the gtk or kernel pages, all they mention is stable/dev version and download link. That's it. I'm ALL FINE with it. If it is simple enough we can even have that link only from the start page. Like "Stable release" that links to http://downloads.enlightenment.org. If we keep a directory /releases/STABLE with links to the latest stable tarballs that becomes very simple for users and us (so they're not hammered with thousand packages)
