subject:"\[e\-users\] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful"

On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 02:19:06 +0200 Albi  said:

i don't remember it - what did it do?

> There was a color class named "focus" that is also present on the color
> dialog and on e19 is not present anymore.
> 
> On 12 giugno 2014 00:44:20 CEST, Carsten Haitzler 
> wrote:
> >On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja
> > said:
> >
> >> Hi to all,
> >> I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of
> >view
> >> at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
> >> I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of
> >the
> >> mail to a short version of my point of view :D
> >> 
> >> Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons
> >and
> >> battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of
> >default E
> >> theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look
> >at
> >> that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than
> >the
> >> flame topic on reddit :)
> >> 
> >> Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
> >> FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
> >> When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications.
> >So I
> >> have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
> >> On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant
> >and
> >> A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't
> >create
> >> a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
> >> So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to
> >create E17
> >> themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
> >> GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the
> >theme,
> >> so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available
> >for
> >> GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep
> >updated:
> >> Adwaita (you don't say?) and "Light Themes" Radiance and Ambiance
> >theme,
> >> from Ubuntu.
> >> I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so
> >I've
> >> create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
> >> Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity,
> >but I
> >> want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK
> >themes
> >> on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like
> >more:
> >> Radiance.
> >> 
> >> SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
> >> As on "Black and White and a Lot of Colors
> >>
> >"
> >> , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings ->
> >Looks ->
> >> Colors.
> >> I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features
> >and it
> >> is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
> >> I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from
> >EDJE.
> >> SO
> >> On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
> >> Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
> >> So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey
> >or
> >> reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
> >> Easly, with a GUI.
> >> Unfortunately E-devs have removed "Focus" options from Color Settings
> >GUI
> >> (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected
> >items is
> >> changeable only decompiling the theme
> >> BUT
> >> I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
> >> change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
> >> selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
> >> If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
> >> change the theme.
> >> No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all
> >binded
> >> to a color class.
> >> So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for
> >a
> >> while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
> >> http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best
> >fit
> >> your tasties.
> >> 
> >> For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and
> >GTK
> >> theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from
> >the
> >> color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
> >> psychology, fashion, "de gustibus" I remand directly to Jeff and/or
> >Joris
> >> about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I
> >happily
> >> change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
> >> If you don't like rounded borders, the "murrina" shines that Radiance
> >and
> >> Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
> >> If you want square and flat just because now it's "modern" or "fancy
> >> fashion" it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to
> >create
> >> something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2
> >and
> >> the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and "you
> >all
> >> can keep the change" http://www.youtube.com/watch

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Steven@e

happy user here :)

On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Carsten Haitzler  wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja  said:
>
>> Hi to all,
>> I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
>> at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
>> I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
>> mail to a short version of my point of view :D
>>
>> Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
>> battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
>> theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
>> that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
>> flame topic on reddit :)
>>
>> Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
>> FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
>> When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
>> have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
>> On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
>> A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
>> a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
>> So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
>> themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
>> GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
>> so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
>> GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
>> Adwaita (you don't say?) and "Light Themes" Radiance and Ambiance theme,
>> from Ubuntu.
>> I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
>> create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
>> Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
>> want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
>> on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
>> Radiance.
>>
>> SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
>> As on "Black and White and a Lot of Colors
>> "
>> , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings -> Looks ->
>> Colors.
>> I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
>> is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
>> I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
>> SO
>> On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
>> Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
>> So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
>> reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
>> Easly, with a GUI.
>> Unfortunately E-devs have removed "Focus" options from Color Settings GUI
>> (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
>> changeable only decompiling the theme
>> BUT
>> I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
>> change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
>> selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
>> If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
>> change the theme.
>> No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
>> to a color class.
>> So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
>> while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
>> http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
>> your tasties.
>>
>> For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
>> theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
>> color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
>> psychology, fashion, "de gustibus" I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
>> about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
>> change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
>> If you don't like rounded borders, the "murrina" shines that Radiance and
>> Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
>> If you want square and flat just because now it's "modern" or "fancy
>> fashion" it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
>> something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
>> the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and "you all
>> can keep the change" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
>> the flame :) - )
>> BUT
>> If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
>> spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
>> tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
>> a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
>> At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
>> blue, like Elementary OS,

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja  said:

> Hi to all,
> I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
> at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
> I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
> mail to a short version of my point of view :D
> 
> Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
> battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
> theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
> that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
> flame topic on reddit :)
> 
> Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
> FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
> When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
> have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
> On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
> A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
> a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
> So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
> themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
> GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
> so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
> GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
> Adwaita (you don't say?) and "Light Themes" Radiance and Ambiance theme,
> from Ubuntu.
> I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
> create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
> Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
> want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
> on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
> Radiance.
> 
> SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
> As on "Black and White and a Lot of Colors
> "
> , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings -> Looks ->
> Colors.
> I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
> is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
> I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
> SO
> On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
> Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
> So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
> reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
> Easly, with a GUI.
> Unfortunately E-devs have removed "Focus" options from Color Settings GUI
> (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
> changeable only decompiling the theme
> BUT
> I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
> change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
> selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
> If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
> change the theme.
> No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
> to a color class.
> So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
> while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
> http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
> your tasties.
> 
> For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
> theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
> color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
> psychology, fashion, "de gustibus" I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
> about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
> change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
> If you don't like rounded borders, the "murrina" shines that Radiance and
> Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
> If you want square and flat just because now it's "modern" or "fancy
> fashion" it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
> something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
> the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and "you all
> can keep the change" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
> the flame :) - )
> BUT
> If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
> spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
> tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
> a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
> At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
> blue, like Elementary OS, but, for ezample, IT IS POSSIBLE.
> 
> So please change the theme to best fit your color. It's all explained on my
> deviantArt page here
>

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Pierre Couderc

Maybe.
But the idea of default style seems to me sobriety...
It comes without wallpaper.


On 06/11/2014 03:07 PM, Boris Faure wrote:
> On 14-06-11 14:06, Pierre Couderc wrote:
>> On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc  said:
>>>
 On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> said:
>
>
> now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast 
> and
> difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
> NOT an accident:
>
>
 Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
 Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some 
 environment.
 In this case, the black neutral background is "cooled" by the blue,
 giving a fairly "cool" environment.
 That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more "warm" yellow, to
 warm the whole.
 Another solution could be to keep the blue but to "warm" the black
 background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
 warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
 This is what I would like to try some day...
>>> i like the cool look. it's calm and "slick". like wearing a nice dark
>>> grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)
>>>
>>> http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>> Oh, I like your image.
>> But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
>> The background of this image is not a neutral black!
>> It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown =
>> orange+black).
>> The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
>> And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly
>> warm atmosphere.
>> The whole image is "gemütlich", "attractive"' and "séduisante".
>> Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...
> Shouldn't a warm wallpaper do it?
>
>
>
> --
> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
> Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
>
>
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Boris Faure

On 14-06-11 14:06, Pierre Couderc wrote:
> 
> On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc  said:
> >
> >> On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> >>> said:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast 
> >>> and
> >>> difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
> >>> NOT an accident:
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
> >> Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some 
> >> environment.
> >> In this case, the black neutral background is "cooled" by the blue,
> >> giving a fairly "cool" environment.
> >> That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more "warm" yellow, to
> >> warm the whole.
> >> Another solution could be to keep the blue but to "warm" the black
> >> background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
> >> warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
> >> This is what I would like to try some day...
> > i like the cool look. it's calm and "slick". like wearing a nice dark
> > grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)
> >
> > http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg
> >
> > :)
> >
> Oh, I like your image.
> But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
> The background of this image is not a neutral black!
> It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown = 
> orange+black).
> The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
> And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly 
> warm atmosphere.
> The whole image is "gemütlich", "attractive"' and "séduisante".
> Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...

Shouldn't a warm wallpaper do it?

-- 
Boris Faure
Pointer Arithmetician
--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems___
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Pierre Couderc


On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc  said:
>
>> On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
>>> said:
>>>
>>>
>>> now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
>>> difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
>>> NOT an accident:
>>>
>>>
>> Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
>> Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
>> In this case, the black neutral background is "cooled" by the blue,
>> giving a fairly "cool" environment.
>> That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more "warm" yellow, to
>> warm the whole.
>> Another solution could be to keep the blue but to "warm" the black
>> background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
>> warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
>> This is what I would like to try some day...
> i like the cool look. it's calm and "slick". like wearing a nice dark
> grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)
>
> http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg
>
> :)
>
Oh, I like your image.
But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
The background of this image is not a neutral black!
It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown = 
orange+black).
The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly 
warm atmosphere.
The whole image is "gemütlich", "attractive"' and "séduisante".
Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...



--
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Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Alberto Verdoja

Hi to all,
I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
mail to a short version of my point of view :D

Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
flame topic on reddit :)

Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
Adwaita (you don't say?) and "Light Themes" Radiance and Ambiance theme,
from Ubuntu.
I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
Radiance.

SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
As on "Black and White and a Lot of Colors
"
, I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings -> Looks ->
Colors.
I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
SO
On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
Easly, with a GUI.
Unfortunately E-devs have removed "Focus" options from Color Settings GUI
(please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
changeable only decompiling the theme
BUT
I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
change the theme.
No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
to a color class.
So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
your tasties.

For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
psychology, fashion, "de gustibus" I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.



If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
If you don't like rounded borders, the "murrina" shines that Radiance and
Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
If you want square and flat just because now it's "modern" or "fancy
fashion" it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and "you all
can keep the change" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
the flame :) - )
BUT
If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
blue, like Elementary OS, but, for ezample, IT IS POSSIBLE.

So please change the theme to best fit your color. It's all explained on my
deviantArt page here

or on e17-stuff

and spread the screenshot with the theme with different colors to sho

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:22:00 +0200 Martin Koelewijn 
said:

> @raster: I'm curious about the gtkrc you made. The attachment, as usual,
> failed to arrive at the mailing list. Could you paste it somewhere and
> share the link? Thanks.

https://phab.enlightenment.org/file/info/PHID-FILE-dpri745rnyuhghdlljdn/

> M
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Carsten Haitzler 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> > said:
> >
> > > They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E
> > in
> > > general.
> >
> > i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:
> >
> > "Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking
> > screenshots.
> > Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
> > helpful."
> >
> > and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot.
> > the
> > original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
> > clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
> > screenshot thread:
> >
> > "Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
> > consistency."
> >
> > "Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large,
> > and the
> > icons are awful."
> >
> > "The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is
> > off.
> > The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and
> > badly
> > drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also
> > a bit
> > off."
> >
> > in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
> > bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.
> >
> > the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize
> > OTHER
> > than "it's dark and i don't like dark" (which was basically one guy) and
> > "it
> > doesn't look flat and modern" were about poor mismatching in the ui - the
> > red
> > glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm
> > thanks
> > to the different theme.
> >
> > i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread.
> > there
> > is a pattern:
> >
> > 1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
> > 2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or
> > then it
> > sucks
> > 3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff
> >
> > there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in
> > those
> > threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
> > some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.
> >
> >
> >
> > > That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a
> > "default"
> > > Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes
> > your
> > > dark default theme.
> > >
> > > What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
> > > 3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
> > > saying "green is bad" is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks
> > fairly
> > > similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how
> > E
> > > looks/functions are happy with.
> >
> > didn't i repeat it often enough below?
> >
> > PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.
> >
> > they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post
> > and
> > then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that
> > response
> > is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the
> > set of
> > screenshots in the article above.
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler  > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
> > 
> > > > said:
> > > >
> > > > i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
> > > > far.
> > > > before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are
> > not
> > > > subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of
> > the
> > > > audience.
> > > >
> > > > now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
> > > > linux
> > > > theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
> > > > selection
> > > > for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
> > > > isn't an
> > > > accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
> > > > it's
> > > > glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they
> > like
> > > > dark
> > > > themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends
> > in
> > > > and is
> > > > just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
> > > > much
> > > > less to offer.
> > > >
> > > > now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some
> > contrast and
> > > > difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue
> > is
> > > > NOT
> > > > an accident:
> > > >

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc  said:

> 
> On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> > said:
> >
> >
> > now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
> > difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
> > NOT an accident:
> >
> >
> Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
> Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
> In this case, the black neutral background is "cooled" by the blue, 
> giving a fairly "cool" environment.
> That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more "warm" yellow, to 
> warm the whole.
> Another solution could be to keep the blue but to "warm" the black 
> background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a 
> warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
> This is what I would like to try some day...

i like the cool look. it's calm and "slick". like wearing a nice dark
grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)

http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg

:)

> --
> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
> Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


--
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Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Pierre Couderc


On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland  
> said:
>
>
> now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
> difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is NOT
> an accident:
>
>
Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
In this case, the black neutral background is "cooled" by the blue, 
giving a fairly "cool" environment.
That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more "warm" yellow, to 
warm the whole.
Another solution could be to keep the blue but to "warm" the black 
background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a 
warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
This is what I would like to try some day...

--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-11 Thread Martin Koelewijn

@raster: I'm curious about the gtkrc you made. The attachment, as usual,
failed to arrive at the mailing list. Could you paste it somewhere and
share the link? Thanks.

M


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Carsten Haitzler 
wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> said:
>
> > They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E
> in
> > general.
>
> i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:
>
> "Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking
> screenshots.
> Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
> helpful."
>
> and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot.
> the
> original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
> clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
> screenshot thread:
>
> "Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
> consistency."
>
> "Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large,
> and the
> icons are awful."
>
> "The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is
> off.
> The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and
> badly
> drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also
> a bit
> off."
>
> in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
> bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.
>
> the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize
> OTHER
> than "it's dark and i don't like dark" (which was basically one guy) and
> "it
> doesn't look flat and modern" were about poor mismatching in the ui - the
> red
> glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm
> thanks
> to the different theme.
>
> i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread.
> there
> is a pattern:
>
> 1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
> 2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or
> then it
> sucks
> 3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff
>
> there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in
> those
> threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
> some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.
>
>
>
> > That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a
> "default"
> > Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes
> your
> > dark default theme.
> >
> > What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
> > 3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
> > saying "green is bad" is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks
> fairly
> > similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how
> E
> > looks/functions are happy with.
>
> didn't i repeat it often enough below?
>
> PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.
>
> they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post
> and
> then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that
> response
> is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the
> set of
> screenshots in the article above.
>
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
> 
> > > said:
> > >
> > > i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
> > > far.
> > > before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are
> not
> > > subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of
> the
> > > audience.
> > >
> > > now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
> > > linux
> > > theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
> > > selection
> > > for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
> > > isn't an
> > > accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
> > > it's
> > > glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they
> like
> > > dark
> > > themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends
> in
> > > and is
> > > just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
> > > much
> > > less to offer.
> > >
> > > now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some
> contrast and
> > > difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue
> is
> > > NOT
> > > an accident:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
> > > http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
> > >
> > >
> http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
> > > http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
> > >
> > >
> http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
> >

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread The Rasterman

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland  said:

> They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E in
> general.

i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:

"Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking screenshots.
Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
helpful."

and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot. the
original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
screenshot thread:

"Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
consistency."

"Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large, and the
icons are awful."

"The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is off.
The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and badly
drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also a bit
off."

in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.

the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize OTHER
than "it's dark and i don't like dark" (which was basically one guy) and "it
doesn't look flat and modern" were about poor mismatching in the ui - the red
glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm thanks
to the different theme.

i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread. there
is a pattern:

1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or then it
sucks
3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff

there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in those
threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.

> That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a "default"
> Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes your
> dark default theme.
> 
> What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
> 3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
> saying "green is bad" is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks fairly
> similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how E
> looks/functions are happy with.

didn't i repeat it often enough below?

PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.

they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post and
then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that response
is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the set of
screenshots in the article above.

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> > said:
> >
> > i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
> > far.
> > before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
> > subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
> > audience.
> >
> > now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
> > linux
> > theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
> > selection
> > for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
> > isn't an
> > accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
> > it's
> > glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like
> > dark
> > themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in
> > and is
> > just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
> > much
> > less to offer.
> >
> > now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
> > difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
> > NOT
> > an accident:
> >
> >
> > http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
> > http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
> >
> > http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
> > http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
> >
> > http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
> > http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
> > http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
> > http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/
> >
> > (i can continue finding references).
> >
> > notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in
> > preferences
> > of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
> > authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and
> > tranquility
> > and

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E in
general.

That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a "default"
Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes your
dark default theme.

What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
saying "green is bad" is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks fairly
similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how E
looks/functions are happy with.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler 
wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland 
> said:
>
> i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
> far.
> before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
> subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
> audience.
>
> now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
> linux
> theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
> selection
> for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
> isn't an
> accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
> it's
> glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like
> dark
> themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in
> and is
> just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
> much
> less to offer.
>
> now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
> difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
> NOT
> an accident:
>
>
> http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
> http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
>
> http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
> http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
>
> http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
> http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
> http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
> http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/
>
> (i can continue finding references).
>
> notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in
> preferences
> of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
> authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and
> tranquility
> and can improve productivity.
>
> these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less
> power
> on oled panels. :)
>
> now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked
> the
> same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch.
> "you're
> just the same!". they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use
> and
> get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.
>
> so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and
> is
> "acceptable" for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't
> really
> like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY
> like a
> green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go "ewww. uglier ubuntu.". it
> has no
> character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
> existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific
> feedback,
> and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and
> popularity
> and then make a good choice. :)
>
> the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend
> well
> with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
> character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.
>
> for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept -
> squareness. i
> made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't
> stand out
> glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can
> match.
> back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some gradients.
> yes
> it's "old fashioned". the bitchers you see want something that looks just
> like
> the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they
> want it
> because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change
> again.
> i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and buys
> a new
> pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's "the in thing this season", but
> reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults down
> on you
> unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is
> "cool"
> today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui
> precedent
> that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON to be
> CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread The Rasterman

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland said:

i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so far.
before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
audience.

now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi linux
theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color selection
for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme isn't an
accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly it's
glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like dark
themes. also it's "different" and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in and is
just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have much
less to offer.

now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is NOT
an accident:

http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/

(i can continue finding references).

notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in preferences
of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and tranquility
and can improve productivity.

these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less power
on oled panels. :)

now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked the
same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch. "you're
just the same!". they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use and
get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.

so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and is
"acceptable" for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't really
like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY like a
green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go "ewww. uglier ubuntu.". it has no
character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific feedback,
and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and popularity
and then make a good choice. :)

the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend well
with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.

for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept - squareness. i
made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't stand out
glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can match.
back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some gradients. yes
it's "old fashioned". the bitchers you see want something that looks just like
the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they want it
because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change again.
i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and buys a new
pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's "the in thing this season", but
reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults down on you
unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is "cool"
today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui precedent
that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON to be
CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text in it. people
have no idea that they can CLICK that. to them it is a passive label. i stopped
listening to fashion followers long ago, because all you end up with is a
continual chasing of the latest trend. reality is that everyone has different
tastes and THAT is what themes are for. we don't really have the manpower to do
more than a single well polished theme. we just don't have artists. even the
default theme is lacking. it lacks many icons it should have. the icons should
be consistent and match the theme, but there just hasn't been time to work on
it all. likely there never will be.

yes - the icons in the default theme need work. now for the bodhi theme. take a
look at the icons in your screenshot, the "i" icon in the about windows has a
pure green that kind of clashes with the green int he background. some icons -
like the about the

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

> the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
> window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
> or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
> without loss of data or productivity.
This is the sort of entrenched Open Source cultural bias that, until 
recently, has held Linux back. Just because you find distro hopping a 
beautiful thing, does not mean the majority of modern "regular users" 
do. Just because you come from a culture where you can break out the 
source code, make changes and recompile "at no cost, without loss of 
data or productivity." does not mean that "regular users" have the time 
to put up with that, the skills to do it, or even have the ability to 
develop the skills to do it. Saying that you need to learn to code to 
use Linux is one of the oldest and most damaging clichés surrounding 
Linux. In the world of modern Linux, we have a massive influx of users 
from Windows and OS X who just want something that works and is 
painfully simple to use with a redundant interface. Have you ever 
noticed that themes for the likes of Mint and elementary OS don't 
actually change much of anything but a few colors and icon sets?

> but do lusers know?
Seriously? is this 1996?

> it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of Choice.
I hate to break it to you, but it is the other way around. Linux needs 
to adapt to users, not the other way around. The new, and most important 
in the history of Linux, population of Linux users want mono-design. 
They do not want or will they be hackers.

On 06/10/2014 04:46 PM, meine wrote:
>> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
>> this?
> lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
> Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/ for the rest of your life if you don't 
> want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!
>
> the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
> window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
> or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
> without loss of data or productivity.
>
> but people are just complaining and walking away from their own 
> responsibility to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and 
> get something better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the 
> window controls placed counter intuitively.
>
> IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
> Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but 
> do lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
> Choice.
>
> in the end they will catch it ;-)
>


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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

While I admit that I never installed any, all of the e17 themes strike 
me as highly individualistic, rather than something I would associate 
with mass appeal.

> It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
> abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
> for things that are suppose to "look modern" and "mesh well".
>
> I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
> feedback that isn't "this sucks" to pass onto the folks working hard on
> themes.
>
> A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
> everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
> E/devote time to themeing.
That's just it though, you are dealing with something that is abstract, 
and I think this feedback has been reasonable. If there is someone out 
there that can give you precise color codes and tell you just how to 
apply them, they should probably be designing the theme in the first 
place. I really hate to suggest this, but if the people designing themes 
can't pull this off, maybe the wrong people are designing themes - 
obviously the other DEs are pulling it off or we would not be having 
this conversation. Although I do not know how to go about recruiting new 
talent.

Perhaps you will consider the following more constructive: the way other 
DE's seem to do this is by developing, posting, and getting feedback on 
mock ups before committing to a design. This happens in a 
wash-rinse-repeat fashion. They also work within more restrictive and 
well established design parameters. Perhaps the theme API is too 
flexible for its own good.

On 06/10/2014 04:15 PM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> Chris,
>
> These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
> themes out there.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry <
> christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
>> Itten, like 'elements of color'.
>> On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, "mk"  wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
>>> suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
>>> Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
>>>
>>> Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
>>> illiterate.
>>>
>>> Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
>>> yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
>>> colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
>>>
>>> Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi 
>>> wrote:
>>> I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
>>> point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
>>>
>>> I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
>>>
>>> 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
>>> -*Yomi*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
>>>
 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
>> tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
>> the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
>> settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
>> Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
>> is
 approached at once through the setti

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread meine

> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> this?

lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/ for the rest of your life if you don't 
want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!

the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme or 
get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, without 
loss of data or productivity.

but people are just complaining and walking away from their own responsibility 
to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and get something 
better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the window controls 
placed counter intuitively.

IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but do 
lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
Choice.

in the end they will catch it ;-)

-- 
//meine

--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

2014-06-10 18:33 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland :

> It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
> abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
> for things that are suppose to "look modern" and "mesh well".
>

What about using Tango[1]-themed icons?

And the Solarized[2] colorscheme is getting popular among developers.


[1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/
[2] http://ethanschoonover.com/solarized


-- 
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
for things that are suppose to "look modern" and "mesh well".

I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
feedback that isn't "this sucks" to pass onto the folks working hard on
themes.

A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
E/devote time to themeing.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:27 PM, William  wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> mk is actually on to something. I grew up with a dad who was a research
> and development chemist. He specialized in... color. As a conseqence I
> heard a lot about it and got roped into doing a couple science fairs
> relating to the subject of color. As ironic as it is, I am an unusual
> individual as I quite literally do not understand the concept of
> "favorite color" I have no preference for any one over the other, which
> is why (as I stated earlier) really don't care about aesthetics at all.
> Apparently this is uncommon and puts me in a small statistical minority.
> Google "psychology of color" or "color psychology" to get an idea of how
> color usage affects people. From what the world has to say about it,
> it's important enough to make a difference. Although from what I
> understand there is a difference in the way colors are used in an
> interactive, changing interface as opposed to a static wall or business
> card or some such thing.
>
>
> On 06/10/2014 02:31 PM, mk wrote:
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
> suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
> Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
> >
> > Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
> illiterate.
> >
> > Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
> yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
> colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
> >
> > Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
> >
> >
> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi 
> wrote:
> > I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
> > point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
> >
> > I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
> >
> > 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
> > -*Yomi*
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
> >
> >> First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> >> workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> >> have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> >> would not want to use another system.
> >>
> >> The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> >> ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> >> is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> >> guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> >> after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
> >> to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> >> universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
> >>
> >> What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
> >> aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> >> - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> >> most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> >> ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> >> the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> >> course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> >> exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
> >> to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
> >> that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> >> anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> >> entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> >> browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
> >> approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> >> trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> >> best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> >> explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> >> they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> >> and long time users.
> >>
> >> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> >> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
>

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

Jeff,

mk is actually on to something. I grew up with a dad who was a research 
and development chemist. He specialized in... color. As a conseqence I 
heard a lot about it and got roped into doing a couple science fairs 
relating to the subject of color. As ironic as it is, I am an unusual 
individual as I quite literally do not understand the concept of 
"favorite color" I have no preference for any one over the other, which 
is why (as I stated earlier) really don't care about aesthetics at all. 
Apparently this is uncommon and puts me in a small statistical minority. 
Google "psychology of color" or "color psychology" to get an idea of how 
color usage affects people. From what the world has to say about it, 
it's important enough to make a difference. Although from what I 
understand there is a difference in the way colors are used in an 
interactive, changing interface as opposed to a static wall or business 
card or some such thing.


On 06/10/2014 02:31 PM, mk wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I suspect 
> you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that Bodhi is an 
> ubuntu derivative.
>
> Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic illiterate.
>
> Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow 
> added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors are 
> extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
>
> Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
>
> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi  wrote:
> I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
> point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
>
> I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
>
> 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
> -*Yomi*
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
>
>> First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
>> workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
>> have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
>> would not want to use another system.
>>
>> The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
>> ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
>> is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
>> guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
>> after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
>> to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
>> universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
>>
>> What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
>> aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
>> - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
>> most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
>> ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
>> the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
>> course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
>> exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
>> to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
>> that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
>> anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
>> entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
>> browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
>> approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
>> trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
>> best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
>> explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
>> they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
>> and long time users.
>>
>> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
>> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
>> Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
>> refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
>> utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
>> version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
>> not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
>> double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
>> super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
>> to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
>> the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
>> of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

Chris,

These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
themes out there.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry <
christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
> Itten, like 'elements of color'.
> On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, "mk"  wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
> > suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
> > Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
> >
> > Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
> > illiterate.
> >
> > Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
> > yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
> > colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
> >
> > Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi 
> > wrote:
> > I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
> > point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
> >
> > I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
> >
> > 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
> > -*Yomi*
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
> >
> > > First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> > > workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> > > have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> > > would not want to use another system.
> > >
> > > The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> > > ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> > > is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> > > guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> > > after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
> tendency
> > > to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> > > universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
> > >
> > > What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
> the
> > > aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> > > - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> > > most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> > > ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> > > the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> > > course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> > > exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
> settings
> > > to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
> Enlightenment
> > > that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> > > anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> > > entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> > > browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
> is
> > > approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> > > trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> > > best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> > > explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> > > they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> > > and long time users.
> > >
> > > I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> > > secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
> > > Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
> > > refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
> > > utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
> > > version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I
> do
> > > not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
> > > double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY*
> ugly,
> > > super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
> > > to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
> > > the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar
> opposite
> > > of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
> > > distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the
> upcoming
> > > tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
> > > Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
> > > descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and
> I
> > > think is most poignant:
> > >
> > >
> > > "This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about ae

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Christopher Barry

Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
Itten, like 'elements of color'.
On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, "mk"  wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
> suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
> Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
>
> Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
> illiterate.
>
> Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
> yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
> colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
>
> Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
>
>
> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi 
> wrote:
> I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
> point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
>
> I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
>
> 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
> -*Yomi*
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
>
> > First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> > workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> > have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> > would not want to use another system.
> >
> > The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> > ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> > is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> > guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> > after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
> > to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> > universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
> >
> > What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
> > aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> > - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> > most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> > ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> > the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> > course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> > exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
> > to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
> > that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> > anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> > entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> > browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
> > approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> > trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> > best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> > explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> > they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> > and long time users.
> >
> > I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> > secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
> > Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
> > refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
> > utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
> > version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
> > not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
> > double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
> > super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
> > to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
> > the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
> > of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
> > distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
> > tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
> > Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
> > descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
> > think is most poignant:
> >
> >
> > "This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
> > was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
> > case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
> > with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
> > was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
> > it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
> > it,

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Fan Cris

people complain anyway. if is new then the old was better if keep the way
is not modern/ugly/...
look at firefox/opera/kde/gnome/...
full with heaters :)
i dont like your theme but im sure others will like it, keep your way :)



On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:31 PM, mk  wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
> suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
> Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
>
> Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
> illiterate.
>
> Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
> yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
> colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
>
> Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
>
>
> http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi 
> wrote:
> I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
> point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
>
> I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
>
> 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
> -*Yomi*
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:
>
> > First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> > workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> > have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> > would not want to use another system.
> >
> > The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> > ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> > is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> > guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> > after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
> > to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> > universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
> >
> > What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
> > aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> > - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> > most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> > ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> > the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> > course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> > exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
> > to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
> > that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> > anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> > entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> > browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
> > approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> > trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> > best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> > explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> > they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> > and long time users.
> >
> > I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> > secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
> > Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
> > refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
> > utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
> > version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
> > not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
> > double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
> > super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
> > to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
> > the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
> > of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
> > distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
> > tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
> > Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
> > descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
> > think is most poignant:
> >
> >
> > "This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
> > was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
> > case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
> > with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
> > was extremely ugly but o

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread mk

Jeff,

Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I suspect 
you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that Bodhi is an 
ubuntu derivative. 

Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic illiterate.

Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow 
added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors are 
extremely disturbing psychologically speaking. 

Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.

http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi  wrote:
I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:

> First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> would not want to use another system.
>
> The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
> to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
>
> What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
> aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
> to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
> that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
> approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> and long time users.
>
> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
> Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
> refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
> utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
> version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
> not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
> double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
> super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
> to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
> the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
> of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
> distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
> tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
> Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
> descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
> think is most poignant:
>
>
> "This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
> was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
> case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
> with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
> was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
> it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
> it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
> Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
> to anyone under any circumstances."
>
> You asked,
>
> William
>
> On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> > Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users mos

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Yomi Ogunwumi

I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William  wrote:

> First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
> workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
> have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
> would not want to use another system.
>
> The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
> ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
> is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
> guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
> after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
> to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
> universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
>
> What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
> aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
> - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
> most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
> ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
> the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
> course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
> exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
> to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
> that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
> anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
> entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
> browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
> approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
> trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
> best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
> explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
> they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
> and long time users.
>
> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
> Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
> refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
> utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
> version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
> not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
> double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
> super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
> to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
> the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
> of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
> distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
> tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
> Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
> descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
> think is most poignant:
>
>
> "This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
> was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
> case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
> with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
> was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
> it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
> it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
> Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
> to anyone under any circumstances."
>
> You asked,
>
> William
>
> On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> > Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> > this?
> >
> > Recent example ->
> >
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
> >
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri

everybody know it is ugly :-D what's the news?

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland  wrote:
> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> this?
>
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
>
> --
> ~Jeff Hoogland 
> Thoughts on Technology , Tech Blog
> Bodhi Linux , Enlightenment for your Desktop
> --
> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users



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--
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Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

On 06/10/2014 11:58 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
>> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
>> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
>> Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
>> refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
>> utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
>> version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
>> not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.
>
> It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
> possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
> and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
> default KDE.
>
> It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
> .e/e/ config files
>
> With a "basic stupid" version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
> still there, just not exposed
>
I Don't disagree. Jeff has done a lot to simplify much about 
Enlightenment. In fact, I was just about to write about that. I 
especially like how easy breezy keeping the system up to date is. I also 
think it's great how I just type "sudo apt-get install bodhi-desktop" on 
a number of distros and bam! there it is as a DE choice at logon. That 
alone offers more incentive to give it a try since people can install in 
their favorite Ubuntu derivative rather than multi-boot just to try it.

And so I was about to write:

Jeff,

I will say that your work has gone a long way towards easing the 
situation across the board. So I pose the question to you: You being the 
one that brought this problem up, what more do you think you can do to 
make things better? Personally I think pushing forward with aesthetics 
is the way to go. Equally important, the settings panel needs two modes 
of operation that can be toggled between: basic and advanced. Advanced 
would be what the default as it is now, basic would limit presented 
options and would be the new default view. Picking and choosing what 
goes in what category could be tricky to a point. For example, a lot of 
stuff under "Windows" could be hidden by default, with defaults already 
chosen that mirror behaviors found in more popular distros. Also, I 
don't know if the person working on the Radiance theme is an official 
team member, but they were doing a fantastic job until 2 updates ago 
when it suddenly turned ugly. Perhaps you need to expand your core dev 
team to focus on the very artistic problems you mentioned?

--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Alan McKinnon

On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
> I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a 
> secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular 
> Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly 
> refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to 
> utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid 
> version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do 
> not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.


It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
default KDE.

It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
.e/e/ config files

With a "basic stupid" version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
still there, just not exposed

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com


--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

2014-06-10 11:38 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland :

> Thoughts on
> this?
>

It's a matter of taste.

Maybe if developers followed this user's advices, we'd have even more
hateful comments on this same thread.

My preferred E theme was the grunge theme, but E breaks compat with themes
too often and I think this is the reason why people are discouraged to
create E themes.


-- 
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Martin Koelewijn

Ugly: matter of taste. I've always liked the default themes a lot, and
some others in the old pre-E17 days. The color variations on the old
b&w theme not so much. Inconsistency with gtk themes is the problem for
me. It's very hard to find a good dark gtk theme, that doesn't mess up
web browsing in firefox for example or libre-office. Though probably
both programs are to blame as well.

Awful: well, maybe. I understand the 'gui principle': customize
everything with gui. But it's not always obvious. I don't understand
how the composite settings work. I only partly understand how the
evrything module settings work. I don't understand how the display
settings work (using extra monitors and stuff; on my pc I let the
nvidia drivers care, but on my laptop with intel drivers it's not
working well). Config files sometimes are easier. I have absolutely no
idea how phab(ricator) works. There is no users forum (besides nowadays
the bodhi forums) and I am banned from #e (probably with good reason,
but I have no idea why, maybe my irc client went berserk when I was
afk). Anyway: support isn't always easy to get.

All in all, I'm fixed on e because performance is good and I like most
of the underlying principles. It has no weird daemons, no bloat. There
are creative people behind it who add new stuff to the window
managers / desktop environments scene (think default themes, everything
module, terminology). I know my around it now and it's just more than
fine for me.

M

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500
Jeff Hoogland  wrote:

> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
> on this?
> 
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
> 

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Ondřej Svoboda

Jeff,

you are right that those guys do not really say anything helpful. I am 
using the default theme and I find it both beautiful and usable, as well 
as Enlightenment as a whole. It is very carefully engineered and not 
getting in the way.

To me, the theme is "classic", yet very polished, reminding me of 90's, 
in a good way. Not needlessly big, as elsewhere. I am not a designer but 
I do not see a reason for everything becoming flat or bright; the look 
is pretty this way, balanced.

I might point out though some little flaws that I did not have time to 
report yet:

- The battery meter is not very readable to me (with 1.0 scaling). On 
hover, the displayed numbers are WHITE, too small and positioned very 
close to the "reflection" on the battery. I cannot deduce if the second 
line is an estimation of time remaining. A little pop-up (after a click, 
like with a calendar?) would do a better job, optionally. (Some 
minimalist guys might want to stick to the two lines being displayed 
over the battery icon.)

- Additionally, I believe it should distinguish the two states of 
running on A/C vs. running on battery more sharply, even when the 
battery is fully charged. The + sign when charging is too little. A 
charging connector or another indication should be displayed when fully 
charged and running on A/C.

- Third, I get the "battery too low" message too soon (at about 50% when 
there is plenty of energy left)

I will post these as bugs as soon as I have time to do so.

Thank you and the team for the lot of work you have put into Enlightenment!
Ondra Svoboda

On 10.6.2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> this?
>
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
>

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
would not want to use another system.

The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
- how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
and long time users.

I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for "regular
Linux users". This would have to have a default interface with highly
refined aesthetics and functional defaults. It would also have to
utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
think is most poignant:

"This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
to anyone under any circumstances."

You asked,

William

On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> this?
>
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
>

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Alan McKinnon

On 10/06/2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
> this?
> 
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
> 

Jeff,

I feel the same way as those posters, just without the violence, insults
and lets-rip-Jeff-a-new-one-coz-we-can attitude :-)

Truth be told, most enlightenment themes out there are butt-ugly and
amateurish. But enlightenment is a tool, it paints on the canvas, and
it's very good at doing that. It can also only paint what the theme
tells it to paint.

Icons are the thing that does stand out the most - enlightenment's
internal built-in icons are nice, but they are also very different from
all the other application icons the user will have, it leads to an
inconsistent look. I've learned to live with it, but really slick icons
would be nice.

GUI design is hard, really hard, and takes a fanatical attention to
detail. I watch the web designers at work, sometimes they obsess about
an element's position to *one* pixel! It does show in the results though.

I think your main problem is that like a code lead, you can only work
with the submissions you get and what you write yourself. You only get
to work with themes that people submit (that one fellow's comment that
you are the team lead and therefore is about as unhelpful as it
gets), and good themes take a good artist. I'm no artist :-)

I think if you want to address the uglyness of some themes, you'd need
to get decent feedback from real artists who can point out aesthetic
flaws in a constructive way. Random arb users on reddit is not where you
will get that.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread David Seikel

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
 wrote:

> Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
> on this?
> 
> Recent example ->
> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Tell the people that think it looks "old" that they are fashion nazis,
and should create their own theme.  Black is finally the new black.  B-)

-- 
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coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.

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[e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful