Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED], commenting on my comments wrote: > A vasculoid system is apparently a concept for the creation of billions of > nanosized platelets, to cover the internal surfaces of every blood vessel in > the human body, and increase the efficiency of blood, by replacing it with > nanomachine transfer devices. Essentially correct. In practice about a dozen different kinds of nanorobots are required to accomplish everything the current circulatory system does. > Number one problem: it doesn't exist yet. The paper itself states that it > is an entirely theoretical system -- NOT a working design. Problem number > two: there is no one that I know who wants to be the first test subject. Agreed (that it doesn't exist). It is a scaling study -- presumably of the same kind that NASA carried out in the late '50's and early '60's with respect to "how big a rocket do we really need to send men too the moon?". I believe that there were rockets on the drawing boards that were significantly larger than the Saturn V because they didn't know precisely what strategy would be used to deliver and return people from the lunar surface. With respect to "being the first test subject" -- as one grows older the risk of stroke increases significantly. I, and I suspect others, would be happy to sign up for vasculoid replacement trials as our stroke risks approached being the primary cause of death (individuals with vasculoid systems installed cannot die from strokes, heart attacks, cancer and a number of other currently fatal conditions). > In the end, you're going to have to have a real person test this thing, > to give a true idea of whether it really improves on what we've already > evolved over 300 billion years of evolution. Due to the declining force of natural selection during the average individuals lifetime the net result of 300 billion years of evolution is -- *you are a dead person*. The closer you get to hitting the wall, the more sense it makes to take what might be considered extreme risks to avoid the wall. > Problem number three: presuming that a vasculoid system was created, [snip] > You STILL have the 'unforeseen circumstances' issue. Yes. And Robert Freitas is generally quite conservative with respect to anticipating such circumstances and proposing solutions. > That is, for all we know,the vasculoids could detach themselves from > the walls of blood vessels, and form clots in the brain, or human tissues Nanomedicine Volume IIA has hundred of pages devoted to the problem of biocompatibility of nanorobots. Nanorobots do not form clots and should be able to suppress clot forming tendencies of natural blood-borne proteins where necessary. The vasculoid system is much more precise than our natural clot forming system since it is capable of transporting clot-forming cells and proteins to only those locations where it is reasonable that clots should be formed (e.g. surface blood vessels -- not the heart or the brain). > might develop an adverse reaction to sapphire, or an outside electrical > charge could find that sapphire vasculoids make a surprisingly good > conductor, or, or, or... Sapphire (or diamondoid) is likely to be very biocompatible -- or can be engineered to be so. See Nanomedicine VIIA when it is published. Sapphire (and most forms of diamondoid) are non-conductors. > I don't see the pressure factor as a true problem. For one thing, we have no > presence on Europa at all, so planning for diving expeditions there seems a > moot point. I was responding to misconceptions with respect to (a) we will never get to Europa in our "lifetime" and (b) it might be difficult to SCUBA on Europa. > In a best case scenario, we may have a tinker-toy robot on > Europa by 2020 or so. You're planning for the year 2200, Robert, not 2003 or > 2010. We need to go through the necessary middle steps, before we can start > planning on how we're going to go on SCUBA dives there. I beg to differ. Departmental class computers reach human computational capacity circa 2010. After that all bets are off because you have no way of knowing the extent to which "AI" will be applied to the evolution of "AI"s. You might be right. But I've worked through the wet path to robust molecular nanotechnology -- and if we can get that path hooked to Moore's Law (this requires semi-automated enzyme design) then by 2020 we will see many of the things one might now only expect by 2200. > Why is it that so many scientists and theoreticians demand that the > government support their activities, when it seems that > 1) we already have off-the-shelf technology that can be assembled to get the > job done, eg, Clement's plan to use small commercial rockets to drop a probe > on Toutatis, etc, and I don't demand that the government support my activities. I've spent the last year trying to interest private investors in them. It is a *very* tough row to hoe when private investors cannot grasp the
Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
In a message dated 9/28/2002 5:06:05 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Robert, your enthusiasm is astounding. Where are the off-the-shelf > microplate sapphire suits? Sorry, not here yet. We can't even assemble sapphire at the molecular level yet. But we do have a design for an internalized sapphire wet-suit: "Vasculoid: A Personal Nanomedical Appliance to Replace Human Blood" http://www.jetpress.org/volume11/vasculoid.html I looked up the website. First, to counter those who might suggest that a vasculoid, or any other of Robert Bradbury's concepts, do not apply to a discussion of Europa, I must say: 1) this website draws its strength from breadth of ideas, not constriction, and 2) if a vasculoid COULD be developed, it would certainly find high utility in space applications. A vasculoid system is apparently a concept for the creation of billions of nanosized platelets, to cover the internal surfaces of every blood vessel in the human body, and increase the efficiency of blood, by replacing it with nanomachine transfer devices. Number one problem: it doesn't exist yet. The paper itself states that it is an entirely theoretical system -- NOT a working design. Problem number two: there is no one that I know who wants to be the first test subject. Animals might be 'recruited' to test it out, but that would require years and years of testing. In the end, you're going to have to have a real person test this thing, to give a true idea of whether it really improves on what we've already evolved over 300 billion years of evolution. Problem number three: presuming that a vasculoid system was created, and that you were able to successfully transfer it to a person... presuming it works entirely as designed... You STILL have the 'unforeseen circumstances' issue. That is, for all we know,the vasculoids could detach themselves from the walls of blood vessels, and form clots in the brain, or human tissues might develop an adverse reaction to sapphire, or an outside electrical charge could find that sapphire vasculoids make a surprisingly good conductor, or, or, or... I consider an externalized version of that to be a relatively minor derivative. A combination of these may also be necessary to solve the pressure problems one finds at great depths in Europa's oceans (I haven't seen any figures on this -- it would be interesting to compare them with diving in Earth's oceans). We discussed pressures at some length in prior rounds. Some feel that the pressure would be significantly higher than Earthside pressures, or no greater than one might find in the Marianna Trench, for instance. Others feel that the very light Europan gravity might play a factor in decreasing pressures. I don't see the pressure factor as a true problem. For one thing, we have no presence on Europa at all, so planning for diving expeditions there seems a moot point. In a best case scenario, we may have a tinker-toy robot on Europa by 2020 or so. You're planning for the year 2200, Robert, not 2003 or 2010. We need to go through the necessary middle steps, before we can start planning on how we're going to go on SCUBA dives there. > Where can I pick up a six-pack of nanotech machines? Can't yet, unless you want to find a health food store that sells unpasturized yoghurt. But people are working on it. The U.S. political establishment is very aware that they are being outspent in this area around the world (Europe, the Asian tigers, China, etc.) so it seems unlikely that support for research in these areas will decrease in the future. Why is it that so many scientists and theoreticians demand that the government support their activities, when it seems that 1) we already have off-the-shelf technology that can be assembled to get the job done, eg, Clement's plan to use small commercial rockets to drop a probe on Toutatis, etc, and 2) private industry can provide plenty of support for research, IF there's money in it (and if there is not a profit in it, ie, incentive, then why would you want to develop it in the first place? The 'wonders of science' routine will only take you so far). Personally, I'm not that concerned that Singapore is going to get to Mars first. Nor am I really all that concerned about China, yet. Much of China is still working with water buffaloes in agriculture. As soon as they finish the Yangtze Dam, they may find that it is like the Aswan Dam: a great idea, at least for the first 20 years. After that, acccumulated deficits to the project may cause some to question the original project, by which time it will be too late. China is going to spend the next 30 years playing catch-up with the West. They're still working out the messy details of providing consumer goods to 1.5 billion people, at an equitable enough distribution rate to keep the lid on. Meanwhile, of course, they'll have to figure out what to do with the pollution produced by a billion cars, a billion refridger
Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Robert, your enthusiasm is astounding. Where are the off-the-shelf > microplate sapphire suits? Sorry, not here yet. We can't even assemble sapphire at the molecular level yet. But we do have a design for an internalized sapphire wet-suit: "Vasculoid: A Personal Nanomedical Appliance to Replace Human Blood" http://www.jetpress.org/volume11/vasculoid.html I consider an externalized version of that to be a relatively minor derivative. A combination of these may also be necessary to solve the pressure problems one finds at great depths in Europa's oceans (I haven't seen any figures on this -- it would be interesting to compare them with diving in Earth's oceans). > Where can I pick up a six-pack of nanotech machines? Can't yet, unless you want to find a health food store that sells unpasturized yoghurt. But people are working on it. The U.S. political establishment is very aware that they are being outspent in this area around the world (Europe, the Asian tigers, China, etc.) so it seems unlikely that support for research in these areas will decrease in the future. > Has AIEVEOS produced any marketable stocks of nanotech machinery? That isn't the raison d'etre for Aeiveos. However a partially owned subsidiary, Robiobotics, is attempting to enable the path to "biobots" since that development path is much clearer. Once one has biobots, then there will be a huge amount of pressure to develop the paths to real nanobots. (The only difference between biobots and nanobots is the stiffness of the structural components they contain based on the number of covalent bonds per unit volume. Once you have "real" nanobots, a exo-sapphire-dry-suit is a small exercise for a graduate student. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
In a message dated 9/27/2002 5:03:05 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No problemo. At the rate we are going, Chris will be able to visit Europa about the same time we can give him a nanotech microplate sapphire dry-suit that is perfectly happy in sulfuric acid oceans. Robert, your enthusiasm is astounding. Where are the off-the-shelf microplate sapphire suits? Where can I pick up a six-pack of nanotech machines? Has AIEVEOS produced any marketable stocks of nanotech machinery?
Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Bruce Moomaw wrote: > Chris Cantrell wrote: > > But part of me wishes that I couldn't remember the Apollo days ... I > > wish I had been born generations later when it would be possible to take > > my passion for SCUBA to the ocean of Europa. > > Of course, given the increasing odds that Europa's ocean is a strong > sulfuric acid solution, if you did you might dissolve... No problemo. At the rate we are going, Chris will be able to visit Europa about the same time we can give him a nanotech microplate sapphire dry-suit that is perfectly happy in sulfuric acid oceans. Oh, and Chris -- re: "being born generations later"... Take a couple of days and attend this conference: http://www.alcor.org/conferences/2002/ Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
- Original Message - From: CHRIS CANTRELL To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 2:11 PM Subject: RE: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS I remember walking out in the yard as a kid in the Apollo days and someone pointing up to the moon and saying "There are men walking around up there right now." It wasn't about any cold-war for me. As individuals and as a race, we need pursuits that are adventerous if not always practical. But part of me wishes that I couldn't remember the Apollo days ... I wish I had been born generations later when it would be possible to take my passion for SCUBA to the ocean of Europa. _ Of course, given the increasing odds that Europa's ocean is a strong sulfuric acid solution, if you did you might dissolve...
RE: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
I remember walking out in the yard as a kid in the Apollo days and someone pointing up to the moon and saying "There are men walking around up there right now." It wasn't about any cold-war for me. As individuals and as a race, we need pursuits that are adventerous if not always practical. But part of me wishes that I couldn't remember the Apollo days ... I wish I had been born generations later when it would be possible to take my passion for SCUBA to the ocean of Europa. -Original Message-From: LARRY KLAES [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:39 PMTo: europaCc: BioAstroSubject: NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDSFrom Space.com, 26 September 2002 http://space.com/news/beyond_iss_020926-1.htmlNASA Reveals New Plan for the Moon, Mars & OutwardBy Leonard DavidTo boldly go, the timeless and optimistic Space Age theme, looks to havebeen reclaimed from a NASA lost-and-found drawer as long-range plannersprepare to reveal next month a new roadmap for robotic and human missions todeep space, SPACE.com has learned.The 21st Century, science-driven agenda is designed to propel explorationbeyond the International Space Station and involves a new habitation complexthat would be built between Earth and the Moon, serving as a portal to Marsand other solar system targets. Somewhat secretive, this behind-the-scenes stratagem has been years in themaking.A NASA Exploration Team (NExT) is prepared to showcase their springboardvision for returning to the Moon, visiting asteroids, and trekking on toMars and beyond. At the upcoming World Space Congress to be held Oct. 10-19,an expected throng of some 13,000 officials from various nations willdescend on Houston, Texas. This once-a-decade gathering provides a statusreport on global space prowess. Part of NASA's message at the meeting will be portraying "what next" forexploration beyond low Earth orbit. In exclusive interviews with SPACE.com,key members of NExT detailed the plan.Step 1: New space hotel"We've been putting together a multi-disciplinary, long-term strategy ... aroad map, along with defining the necessary strategic investments in keytechnologies," said Gary Martin, leader of NExT and assistant associateadministrator for the Office of Space Flight at NASA Headquarters. "We'relooking at a stair-step of capability. Our first stair step is Earth'sneighborhood."This approach will be discovery-driven and technology-enabled, withexploration involving the staging of future missions at the Earth-MoonLagrange point, L1 -- a literal Gateway to the future of space exploration.A Lagrangian point -- also called a libration point in space -- is a spot atwhich a small body, under the gravitational influence of two large bodies,will remain somewhat at rest relative to them. In each system of two heavybodies -- say the Sun and Jupiter, or Earth and the Moon -- there exist fivetheoretical Lagrangian points. The Earth-Moon L1 Lagrange point is at a distance of some 200,000 miles(323,110 kilometers) from the Earth, or 84 percent of the way to the Moon.NASA's Martin said the L1 Gateway, replete with a habitat for crewoccupancy, is a good spot to support a locus of activity. Both humans andtheir robotic partners can transform this zone into a bustling hub fortesting hardware, supporting science operations, and as astronaut trainingground to prep crews for long-haul sojourns into deep space. Beyond L1Sites on the Moon, for instance, can be easily accessed from an L1 Gateway.The same goes with travel to Mars or asteroid targets. Also, assembly,repair, and maintenance of a "telescope farm" of orbiting instruments can bedone on site, then nudged over to the Earth-Sun L2 location."The L-points have become unique locations where you can do a lot ofthings," Martin said. "We found the more we look at them, the more nicethings we find."Harley Thronson, director of technology and senior science lead for NExT,said the semi-stable L1 Gateway offers a number of attractive capabilities.For one, returning back to Earth in a hurry due to an emergency is possible.But it can also be the first step on the way to putting people elsewhere andsending them to even more distant places, he said. Many tasks would be automated."Science facilities could be deployed, rescued, upgraded and checked outthere by humans and telerobotic systems...or sent into deep space to otherlibration points throughout the solar system," Thronson said.Thronson stressed that NExT is not solely dedicated to dispatching humancrews outward. Their work is geared to improve robotic capabilities, as wellas
NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDS
NASA MOVES FORWARD ON HUMAN MISSIONS TO MOON, MARS AND ASTEROIDSFrom Space.com, 26 September 2002 http://space.com/news/beyond_iss_020926-1.htmlNASA Reveals New Plan for the Moon, Mars & OutwardBy Leonard DavidTo boldly go, the timeless and optimistic Space Age theme, looks to havebeen reclaimed from a NASA lost-and-found drawer as long-range plannersprepare to reveal next month a new roadmap for robotic and human missions todeep space, SPACE.com has learned.The 21st Century, science-driven agenda is designed to propel explorationbeyond the International Space Station and involves a new habitation complexthat would be built between Earth and the Moon, serving as a portal to Marsand other solar system targets. Somewhat secretive, this behind-the-scenes stratagem has been years in themaking.A NASA Exploration Team (NExT) is prepared to showcase their springboardvision for returning to the Moon, visiting asteroids, and trekking on toMars and beyond. At the upcoming World Space Congress to be held Oct. 10-19,an expected throng of some 13,000 officials from various nations willdescend on Houston, Texas. This once-a-decade gathering provides a statusreport on global space prowess. Part of NASA's message at the meeting will be portraying "what next" forexploration beyond low Earth orbit. In exclusive interviews with SPACE.com,key members of NExT detailed the plan.Step 1: New space hotel"We've been putting together a multi-disciplinary, long-term strategy ... aroad map, along with defining the necessary strategic investments in keytechnologies," said Gary Martin, leader of NExT and assistant associateadministrator for the Office of Space Flight at NASA Headquarters. "We'relooking at a stair-step of capability. Our first stair step is Earth'sneighborhood."This approach will be discovery-driven and technology-enabled, withexploration involving the staging of future missions at the Earth-MoonLagrange point, L1 -- a literal Gateway to the future of space exploration.A Lagrangian point -- also called a libration point in space -- is a spot atwhich a small body, under the gravitational influence of two large bodies,will remain somewhat at rest relative to them. In each system of two heavybodies -- say the Sun and Jupiter, or Earth and the Moon -- there exist fivetheoretical Lagrangian points. The Earth-Moon L1 Lagrange point is at a distance of some 200,000 miles(323,110 kilometers) from the Earth, or 84 percent of the way to the Moon.NASA's Martin said the L1 Gateway, replete with a habitat for crewoccupancy, is a good spot to support a locus of activity. Both humans andtheir robotic partners can transform this zone into a bustling hub fortesting hardware, supporting science operations, and as astronaut trainingground to prep crews for long-haul sojourns into deep space. Beyond L1Sites on the Moon, for instance, can be easily accessed from an L1 Gateway.The same goes with travel to Mars or asteroid targets. Also, assembly,repair, and maintenance of a "telescope farm" of orbiting instruments can bedone on site, then nudged over to the Earth-Sun L2 location."The L-points have become unique locations where you can do a lot ofthings," Martin said. "We found the more we look at them, the more nicethings we find."Harley Thronson, director of technology and senior science lead for NExT,said the semi-stable L1 Gateway offers a number of attractive capabilities.For one, returning back to Earth in a hurry due to an emergency is possible.But it can also be the first step on the way to putting people elsewhere andsending them to even more distant places, he said. Many tasks would be automated."Science facilities could be deployed, rescued, upgraded and checked outthere by humans and telerobotic systems...or sent into deep space to otherlibration points throughout the solar system," Thronson said.Thronson stressed that NExT is not solely dedicated to dispatching humancrews outward. Their work is geared to improve robotic capabilities, as wellas enhance human attributes, particularly through improved space suits.Studies are also underway to investigate ways to bring human and machinestrengths together.Sights on MarsNExT has a strong track record for steering NASA to embrace several newinitiatives. An in-space propulsion program is underway. A nuclear systemsinitiative is being pursued. Starting next year, a radiation program isscheduled to begin, said Lisa Guerra, Special Assistant to the AssociateAdministrator in the Office of Biological and Physical Research. Some of this work is essential in preparing for crewed missions to Mars."It would be a combination of looking at radiation health issues with thecrew and a program tied to the space station," Guerra said. "Ground researchwill also assess potential alternatives to active or passive shielding forfuture missions." Shoving off to places like Mars in speedier fashion -- through nuclearpropulsion, as example -- can cut down crew exposure time to radiation. Inaddition, taking a fas
