RE: No power sources available
This is what I was talking about: Thermate grenades: these special-purpose grenades are (obviously) filled with a substance called thermate. Thermate is a powdered mixture of 1 part barium nitrate, 2 parts aluminum, and 3 parts iron oxide (rust). The aluminum and iron oxide particles are known as thermite, and when ignited by a very hot-burning fuse substance such as magnesium, the resulting incendiary reaction can easily melt steel. The burning liquid metal produced by the reaction has an accelerated heating/corrosion effect, and an M14 thermate grenade is said to be capable of burning a hole through a 1/2-inch thick steel plate. The addition of barium nitrate distinguishes thermate from thermite, and it allows the mixture to burn even when submerged underwater. Unlike the anti-personnel WP grenades, thermate grenades can be used to damage vehicles, small buildings, stored munitions, etc. The burning metal welds parts together, burns holes through plate, and distorts structural components. However, the area of destruction is quite small, so these grenades are not very widely used. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert Crawley Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available These grenades don't so much as create a blast, as just sit there and generate a lot of heat. A lot like a flare. You can set one of these things on the hood of a truck and it will quickly find its way to the ground. About the only way to put it out, is to either let itself burn out or apply copper oxide. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Robert Crawley wrote: Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Rob, I'll be happy to pat you on the back as you begin to trek up the mountian with the sled with thousands of said grenaides on it. Actually you have the problem that in a glacier, you will generate a slight pocket in the ice, maybe some water, which will quickly refreeze as the ice around it absorbs the heat of the explosion. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
John, Ok, I'll bring it back to earth. I think we are both thinking along the same line. Maybe we can narrow this down even more and even simpler. Just to prove the concept, could we concentrate on simply getting a reasonably sized vehicle to move straight down through 5 to 10 feet of ice? No navigation controls, no special electronics. Just a missile shaped structure that will melt its way through the ice without the input of a human. It would be made of whatever we could find at the surplus store or junk yard. For starters,how do you think a small oxyacetylene set up would work as a fuel? We may need to get something even hotter. Would need a way to regulate the gas and direct the heat to the front of the vehicle. In about another 2 months I'll have plenty of frozen lakes to test it. Actually, if it works all of the ice fisherman are going to want one! Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:JHByrne;aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: No power sources available In a message dated 10/28/2002 2:03:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course the fuel does not have to be White Phosphorus. Maybe hypergolic fuels would be better suited. It would be safer to store for such a long trip. I just thought WP would be a good example because it will burn anywhere, even in water. Scott, I think you're planning for an actual probe. That's not what this is about. This is for a terrestial bound model. We do not have the capacity to put up a Europa bound probe, so we have to think locally, and cheap. Robert Bradbury suggests that there's not enough heat capacity to get through 500 feet of ice. I don't buy it. I came up with thermite, you suggested white phosphorous. We all know that warm water WILL cut through ice. We are not moving the ark through ice, just a 3' metal tube, sprayed with teflon, and enveloped in a pocket of water that is slightly warmer than the surrounding ice. It does not have to be a jet. It simply has to slowly move, without reference to an extension cord out the back. I still think we can come up with a means of internally heating meltwater, and use that meltwater to provide most of the motive force, or at least most of the drilling. If the powersource is batteries, fine. 1) How much power can 4 motorcycle batteries, linked to an electrical coil surrounding an insulated reservoir produce? Is it enough to heat up enough water to cut a hole in ice? If batteries can heat up a pot of coffee, why can't more and bigger batteries heat up a gallon of warm water? 2) If gasoline / propane requires air to do the same trick, then why not simply put in a scuba tank filled with compressed air, to provide that boost? We don't care if we run out of air... we only have to go 500'. We don't care that this is not a direct correlation with a NASA project, or that such a project will use radioisotopes rather than a gasoline motor and a scuba tank. That project will likely have other bells and whistles that will take up just as much proportionate mass as our make-do heating device will, on the model. 3) If gasoline/propane won't work, then a device that slowly feeds out a chemical mixture of thermite or white phosphorous might -- either to directly heat the ice, or to indirectly heat water for a water drill. We can adjust the effficiency of the burn, to make it cool enough to work with -- that is, instead of an optimum mix of aluminum and iron oxide, the model's mix has a more neutral reactant, to slow the burn time down. Fireworks specialists have all sorts of knowledge on how to make chemicals burn more or less slowly. We can also contain a chemical burner in a ceramic vessel. Excess heat would simply provide additional impetus to the model. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: No power sources available
It is worth noting that according to: http://helios.jpl.nasa.gov/%7Ebehar/AntWebSite/MainPage/documents/JPLAntIceProbe.pdf Slide #26 of 48, that the Hot-water jet drilling required 480kw of power. That is *not* a small amount of power (its approximately equal to 24 homes drawing their full power potential from the electrical grid [assuming 200 amp service]). You will need a *lot* of power to melt the ice. You have a choice of going quickly (and needing to provide such power) or going slowly and *still* needing to provide the power. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
Using a chemical reaction to melt through miles of ice won't work. The chemical reaction to melt or dissociate water to clear a path to open water will require thousands of tons or reactants, even lithium! Maybe we should be thinking of a way to use Jupiter's magnetic field to generate electricity in situ. Is there any way to use tether technology to generate electricity while orbiting Europa? Or better yet, while stationary on the surface? An orbiting space craft could detect a recent crack in the ice and land a probe where ice has either, not yet formed or is still very thin. It appears ice fractures could be easily and rapidly detected by looking for hydrogen in orbit around Europa. If a satellite were in polar orbit it ought to be able to get to the fracture site fairly quickly and deploy the ice penetrator. Mickey Schmidt == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
What about some kind of kinetic energy system ... shooting a stream of small rocky objects at the target site before breaking into orbit. No matter what we do, we are going to have to transfer a lot of energy to the ice; kinetic energy is the one thing we have an abundance of (maybe too much of). -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
I would expect that to be like pecking at the surface, and the more efficient the projectile, the heavier it would have to be. Then it has to get out of the way. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of CHRIS CANTRELL Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:13 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available What about some kind of kinetic energy system ... shooting a stream of small rocky objects at the target site before breaking into orbit. No matter what we do, we are going to have to transfer a lot of energy to the ice; kinetic energy is the one thing we have an abundance of (maybe too much of). -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
LOL - We're brainstorming right? That's not exactly what I was thinking. This would not be a grenade simply exploding in all directions, but a sustained white phosphorus charge. The charge would be contained and directed to the sides of the vehicle, super heating the head of the vehicle and pushing it downward. As for maneuvering the vehicle, I worked on a missile once that used helium to cool specific points on the engines exhaust nozzle which in turn allowed the missile to change direction, maybe we could apply the same principle in this case. I'm not a chemist, but I think WP would burn even on Europa. Is the ice really 10 miles thick? -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
Again ... I am no rocket scientist! ;-) -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available I would expect that to be like pecking at the surface, and the more efficient the projectile, the heavier it would have to be. Then it has to get out of the way. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of CHRIS CANTRELL Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:13 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available What about some kind of kinetic energy system ... shooting a stream of small rocky objects at the target site before breaking into orbit. No matter what we do, we are going to have to transfer a lot of energy to the ice; kinetic energy is the one thing we have an abundance of (maybe too much of). -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un
RE: No power sources available
Of course the fuel does not have to be White Phosphorus. Maybe hypergolic fuels would be better suited. It would be safer to store for such a long trip. I just thought WP would be a good example because it will burn anywhere, even in water. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Christlieb, Scott F. wrote: One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. The problem is that cabinets don't contain a lot of material and the air around them isn't a very good heat conductor. So you get a lot of bang for your buck so to speak. As I mentioned in an offlist message its a mass-mass problem. For a chemical melting you probably have to throw as much mass at the ice as the mass you intend to melt. The Probe used in Antarctica was 12 cm in diameter. The depths drilled to were 1000-1200m. That isn't a small amount of mass. URL: http://helios.jpl.nasa.gov/%7Ebehar/AntWebSite/MainPage/documents/JPLAntIceProbe.pdf (its a couple of megabytes, so it may take a while to load on a slow connection). I don't see what the point is of the IcePIC group attempting to drop a probe 500' when NASA has already gone much further (though they drilled the holes with non-probe machinery). Also, if you want a probe design the simplest way to get one is to file an FOI request with NASA to cough up the complete details, blueprints, specs, etc. for their probe. If you ask nicely, Dr. Behar might just turn them over without the legal overhead. If you ask very nicely Dr. Behar might even let you use their probe! Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Robert Crawley wrote: Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Rob, I'll be happy to pat you on the back as you begin to trek up the mountian with the sled with thousands of said grenaides on it. Actually you have the problem that in a glacier, you will generate a slight pocket in the ice, maybe some water, which will quickly refreeze as the ice around it absorbs the heat of the explosion. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: No power sources available
10 miles is an estimate. Some say more, others say less. But considering the radius of heat, and rate at which the ice gets sublimated into steam, it should make a nice clean hole pretty damn fast. One of those, hey, ya'll watch this kind of deals. And about those brakes, I wonder if there's enough of an atmosphere to make a parachute of any use. Well, there probably would be after the first couple grenades. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:41 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available LOL - We're brainstorming right? That's not exactly what I was thinking. This would not be a grenade simply exploding in all directions, but a sustained white phosphorus charge. The charge would be contained and directed to the sides of the vehicle, super heating the head of the vehicle and pushing it downward. As for maneuvering the vehicle, I worked on a missile once that used helium to cool specific points on the engines exhaust nozzle which in turn allowed the missile to change direction, maybe we could apply the same principle in this case. I'm not a chemist, but I think WP would burn even on Europa. Is the ice really 10 miles thick? -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Christlieb, Scott F. Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: No power sources available Since we're brain storming... When I was in the military we used white phosphorus grenades to melt down large metal filing cabinets. One grenade would go through the whole cabinet in a few moments. On a larger scale, could we control and direct this type of energy to quickly clear a path for Icepick? It would be a fast way to the bottom of the ice. Scott. -Original Message- From: Robert Crawley [mailto:programming-epfi;txucom.net] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: No power sources available I was trying to come up with a self-renewable chemical energy source. But I'm a tad bit of my league on that one. I was even thinking along the lines of using microbes to help the process. But littering Europa with dead microbes probably isn't acceptable. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available Robert, If I understand this correctly, lithium makes lithium hydroxide and hydrogen after being exposed to water. Could there be a chemical way to revitalize this process without adding tons of materials? Is anyone on this list a chemical engineer? Generally speaking in chemistry you are going to require quantities of materials approx. equivalent in mass to whatever you are reacting with. Since we are probably talking about tons of ice, we are also talking about tons of reactants. There is the additional problem of getting the reactants to where you want them to react. That's pretty difficult with solid alkali metals with melting points of hundreds of degrees C. You have to consider that liquid sodium/potassium has commonly been considered as a coolant for nuclear reactors. The engineering to keep it under control *isn't* trivial. In fact there is some evidence that one of the nuclear reactors the Russians put up has leaked its coolant into its orbit and there are now solid drops of sodium/potassium orbiting the planet. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You
RE: No power sources available
These grenades don't so much as create a blast, as just sit there and generate a lot of heat. A lot like a flare. You can set one of these things on the hood of a truck and it will quickly find its way to the ground. About the only way to put it out, is to either let itself burn out or apply copper oxide. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bradbury Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: No power sources available On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Robert Crawley wrote: Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Rob, I'll be happy to pat you on the back as you begin to trek up the mountian with the sled with thousands of said grenaides on it. Actually you have the problem that in a glacier, you will generate a slight pocket in the ice, maybe some water, which will quickly refreeze as the ice around it absorbs the heat of the explosion. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: No power sources available
In a message dated 10/28/2002 12:59:45 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, that should work nicely. Let's see... drop grenade on ice. Wait 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #2 down the hole. Wait a few minutes before it gets to the bottom. Wait another 30-45 minutes. Drop grenade #3... this might take a little while. Now we need to figure out how to get down the 10-mile shaft. Ah, deposit copper oxide down shaft just in case. Then figure out how to get down. Ice skates with brakes. I think we have a plan. Good idea. Wish I'd thought of it. We are not going 10 miles, or 1 mile, or 1 kilometer. Just 500'. That's all. If thermite, or phosphorous, or some other chemical combination does the trick, so be it. I see no reason why we can't use a chemical reactant to heat a little water, and use that water to provide the drill. Respooling along a wire won't work. For one thing, we don't need a video transmission. We're not out to take pictures of the bottom of an ice field. Refocus. We're just trying to demonstrate that 1) a small torpedo shaped model can slowly navigate through an ice field (with incrementally small changes in heading). It is not going to be fast, or filled with bells and whistles. It is simply a prototype, semi-autonomous ice submersible, radio controlled. 2) the only payload on this will be 3-5 transponders. These may be simple, off-the-shelf animal transponders, such as are attached to wildlife, or if these won't work, then something that will generate a low frequency noise, to take advantage of the sonic transmission capacities of solid ice. Once again, it doesn't matter if they're not Europa proof. They simply have to transpond a readable signal through a few hundred feet of terrestial ice. The signal need be nothing more than sufficient to get a rough fix on where the transponder is located. That's all. NASA, or the Russians, or ESA, can certainly provide a corvette to trump our model-T. That's not the point. Of course, NASA gets to use radioisotopes, and has million dollar transponders. We don't. We have off-the-shelf parts. Let's keep this project within the realm of the possible, and payable. If something like what we are proposing actually gets done, it can be upgraded by more financed groups later. The point is to actually do something now. Think 'X-Prize' on a glacier. -- John Harlow Byrne
Re: No power sources available
In a message dated 10/28/2002 2:03:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course the fuel does not have to be White Phosphorus. Maybe hypergolic fuels would be better suited. It would be safer to store for such a long trip. I just thought WP would be a good example because it will burn anywhere, even in water. Scott, I think you're planning for an actual probe. That's not what this is about. This is for a terrestial bound model. We do not have the capacity to put up a Europa bound probe, so we have to think locally, and cheap. Robert Bradbury suggests that there's not enough heat capacity to get through 500 feet of ice. I don't buy it. I came up with thermite, you suggested white phosphorous. We all know that warm water WILL cut through ice. We are not moving the ark through ice, just a 3' metal tube, sprayed with teflon, and enveloped in a pocket of water that is slightly warmer than the surrounding ice. It does not have to be a jet. It simply has to slowly move, without reference to an extension cord out the back. I still think we can come up with a means of internally heating meltwater, and use that meltwater to provide most of the motive force, or at least most of the drilling. If the powersource is batteries, fine. 1) How much power can 4 motorcycle batteries, linked to an electrical coil surrounding an insulated reservoir produce? Is it enough to heat up enough water to cut a hole in ice? If batteries can heat up a pot of coffee, why can't more and bigger batteries heat up a gallon of warm water? 2) If gasoline / propane requires air to do the same trick, then why not simply put in a scuba tank filled with compressed air, to provide that boost? We don't care if we run out of air... we only have to go 500'. We don't care that this is not a direct correlation with a NASA project, or that such a project will use radioisotopes rather than a gasoline motor and a scuba tank. That project will likely have other bells and whistles that will take up just as much proportionate mass as our make-do heating device will, on the model. 3) If gasoline/propane won't work, then a device that slowly feeds out a chemical mixture of thermite or white phosphorous might -- either to directly heat the ice, or to indirectly heat water for a water drill. We can adjust the effficiency of the burn, to make it cool enough to work with -- that is, instead of an optimum mix of aluminum and iron oxide, the model's mix has a more neutral reactant, to slow the burn time down. Fireworks specialists have all sorts of knowledge on how to make chemicals burn more or less slowly. We can also contain a chemical burner in a ceramic vessel. Excess heat would simply provide additional impetus to the model. -- John Harlow Byrne
Re: No power sources available
In a message dated 10/28/2002 2:22:52 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't see what the point is of the IcePIC group attempting to drop a probe 500' when NASA has already gone much further (though they drilled the holes with non-probe machinery). The point is to do it, without putting a hand out for NASA's crib notes. Here, we're talking about a semi-autonomous ice submersible, without an extension cord out the back. NASA's probe was really just a drill with a camera attached to the front of it. This is more akin to a submarine. Also, if you want a probe design the simplest way to get one is to file an FOI request with NASA to cough up the complete details, blueprints, specs, etc. for their probe. If you ask nicely, Dr. Behar might just turn them over without the legal overhead. If you ask very nicely Dr. Behar might even let you use their probe! What's the point of that? At the very least, we are trying to motivate people HERE to participate in the space program, to provide what they themselves can provide. Sure, we'd like to hear about ice melting parameters of the Behar probe. But, we're simply trying to cut 500' through ice, not 1200 meters. We're not going straight down. We're going at an angle. We'd like to be able to slightly turn the heading of the model, by sending it a radio command. Another point to going through 500'? It hasn't been done before. This isn't because it is impossible. It simply hasn't been attempted yet. -- John Robert
