Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
On 29 Sep 2015 at 14:46, Ben Goren via EV wrote: > Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an > electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the > premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those > who'd buy it. I think this is spot on. My evidence is anecdotal, but I've seen interest in the Model S from people for whom EVs had never previously registered. When the S came out, one self-identified "car guy" I worked with switched his computer screen saver from some other expensive sports car I didn't recognize to the Tesla. The fact that it was an EV meant nothing to him, he just thought it was an exciting, exotic, prestigious car. This, BTW, is how we got antilock brakes and HID headlamps and, in earlier eras, power steering/brakes/windows/locks/etc, aircon, and automatic transmissions. All these expensive changes were applied first to luxury cars, and later worked their way down to economy cars. Thirty years ago, no low-end car had those features; today few customers would buy a car in any price range without them. It'll be interesting to see whether EPTO (electric power train option) works out the same way. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
On 29 Sep 2015 at 15:32, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > The VLC may get 100 miles on 10kw of batteries but Stella gets 375 > miles on 16kw. I read 268, not 375. Still quite literally incredible. > I think the difference is the motor and the tires as the CD is the > same. Most likely it's just careful, spare-no-expense attention to detail - drivetrain, tires, wheels, alignment, brakes, lubricants, bearings, and so on. That's how Solectria got their early Forces down from over 200 Wh/mi to 150-160 Wh/mi. It's also how they managed to triple the price of the base ICE Geo Metro they were building on, which limited their sales to institutions with deep pockets. Some of the difference could indeed be the motor and inverter/controller, but my impression is that the state of the art in electronically commutated motors is so high that once you're past the mass market rubbish the efficiency difference is seldom more than a percentage point or two. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:20 PM, rayfellow via EV wrote: > A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively > high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie. > Tesla Model S or X. This is another very important point. We're at the cusp of moving into a new era, but, up until now, any electric vehicle is going to be expensive, at least compared with something similar in all aspects other than the drivetrain. Nobody whose budget is constrained is going to pay a premium for anything. Nobody whose budget _isn't_ constrained is going to be interested in something that cuts corners. Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those who'd buy it. When the electric drivetrain is only somewhat more expensive, move it into the midrange market where people will consider stretching the budget by 10% - 20% if the upsell is compelling enough (as it certainly is for EVs). Only when there's no price difference do you put it into mass-market non-niche cheap vehicles...and, if the stars are suitably aligned, it won't be long before the electric has an even cheaper sticker price -- at which point it sweeps the market and nobody sells anything else. b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/231cdc4e/attachment.pgp> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
I kept up with Oliver Kuttner after he pitched his VLC here in California. The cars efficency and cost inputs were much lower than conventional cars. He was hoping for a third world market. Dang, the VLC weighed 1,000 pounds and would carry just about its weight in passengers and baggage. A couple of the comments were right on in that it was a one-of-a kind car. He didn't want to stress it with rapid acceleration or very high speeds. The VLC was NOT finished ie. No air con, radio, cup holders, sound proofing and an unfinished interior. Mr. Kuttner was looking for an auto company to take the VLC to market. Obviously Tesla had that all that covered. A lot of his presentation was stressing the VLC's safety - having outboard wheels and crumple zones around the car... but it was light and low. It actually was fairly easy to get in and out of the car. We had guys at 6'3" trying it out. Still the perception of small and light made it a hard sell. A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie. Tesla Model S or X. As the battery costs come down, then the Tesla Model 3. I think the VLC was ahead of its time. Small, light, low cost vehicles are all over the Philippines (where I spend ½ my time). It's a third world kind of thing. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677830.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
eighed > > > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was > > > impressed > > > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. > > > > > > > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and > heavy. > > I > > > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I > > wrong! > > > No > > > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the > 300wh > > > for > > > > the Tesla. > > > > > > > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits > > > waiting > > > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only > > > answer > > > > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap > > > compared > > > > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV > > vs a > > > > heavy user is still not all that much. > > > > > > > > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but > > seriously, > > > > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. > > and > > > yet > > > > no one wants them. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > View this message in context: > > > > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html > > > > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive > at > > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: < > > > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/ba73cc88/attachment.htm > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/074181b4/attachment.htm > > > > > ___ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -- > Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org > '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 > "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller > "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/5eb724fa/attachment.htm > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/476abb47/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
I'm trying to imagine the survivability rate of an F-350 Dually in a head on collision with a semi. A lot of selling a vehicle to customers is perception, not what they might experience in the real world. Most of what is needed is the perception of fun, and while other car buyers have different priorities, this is the one that will win out, heavy, light, armored or exposed. If it seems not-fun; it won't sell. Fortunately most EV sales are targeted well at this market :) On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jukka Järvinen wrote: > I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just > has to be taken with extreme measures. > > If one could build that economic bullet-shaped > Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on > head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts off > from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be > good. > > But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the Dumb > and dumber movie No sale. > > -Jukka > p.s.- don't shoot the messenger... > > http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about > > 2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV : > > > I think that's part of the reason. > > > > EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. > Part > > of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, > part > > of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very > > small cars. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV > wrote: > > > > > > Easy, > > > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most > > people are afraid of them. > > > > > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, > > and green people, those are the customer base. > > > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions > > and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of > other > > expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only > > choice is a Prius. > > > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the > best > > EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market > and > > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well. > > > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes > > them so naturally they inferior. > > > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have > > never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini. > > > Paul > > > From: rayfellow via EV > > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > > > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM > > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big > Battery > > Pack? > > > > > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. > > It > > > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 > - > > > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was > > electric. > > > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It > > weighed > > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was > > impressed > > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. > > > > > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. > I > > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I > wrong! > > No > > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh > > for > > > the Tesla. > > > > > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits > > waiting > > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only > > answer > > > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap > > compared > > > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV > vs a > > > heavy user is still not all that much. > > > > > > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but > seriously, > > > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. > and > > yet > > > no one wants them. > > > > > > -- > > > View this message in context: > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just has to be taken with extreme measures. If one could build that economic bullet-shaped Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts off from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be good. But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the Dumb and dumber movie No sale. -Jukka p.s.- don't shoot the messenger... http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about 2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV : > I think that's part of the reason. > > EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part > of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part > of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very > small cars. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > > > > Easy, > > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most > people are afraid of them. > > > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, > and green people, those are the customer base. > > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions > and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other > expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only > choice is a Prius. > > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best > EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well. > > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes > them so naturally they inferior. > > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have > never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini. > > Paul > > From: rayfellow via EV > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery > Pack? > > > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. > It > > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 - > > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was > electric. > > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It > weighed > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was > impressed > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. > > > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! > No > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh > for > > the Tesla. > > > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits > waiting > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only > answer > > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap > compared > > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a > > heavy user is still not all that much. > > > > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously, > > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and > yet > > no one wants them. > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html > > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > > ___ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/ba73cc88/attachment.htm > > > > ___ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NE
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
"The car he had in California was electric. It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. " Maybe it's the tires but the VLC gets nowhere near the efficiency of the 4 passenger solar vehicles competing in the World Solar Challenge. The VLC may get 100 miles on 10kw of batteries but Stella gets 375 miles on 16kw. I think the difference is the motor and the tires as the CD is the same. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/2c84279f/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
I think that's part of the reason. EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very small cars. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > > Easy, > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people > are afraid of them. > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, and > green people, those are the customer base. > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions and see > a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other expensive > car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only choice is a > Prius. > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best EV > and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well. > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes them > so naturally they inferior. > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have never > sold well unless they were cool like the Mini. > Paul > From: rayfellow via EV > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack? > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 - > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric. > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! No > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh for > the Tesla. > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only answer > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap compared > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a > heavy user is still not all that much. > > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously, > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and yet > no one wants them. > > -- > View this message in context: > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/ba73cc88/attachment.htm> > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
Easy, The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people are afraid of them. People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, and green people, those are the customer base. Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only choice is a Prius. So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well. The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes them so naturally they inferior. As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini. Paul From: rayfellow via EV To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack? In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 - getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric. It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! No one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh for the Tesla. I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only answer I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap compared to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a heavy user is still not all that much. I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously, none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and yet no one wants them. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/ba73cc88/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVangel Asher's Leaf-EVing on his "Plug'n All Around AZ" tour
'ElectraGirl: Our National Drive Electric Week Roundup' http://www.eacourier.com/copper_era/news/ev-jerry-plugs-on-through-greenlee-graham/article_24bc9aae-6228-11e5-8da8-c72e667152f4.html EV Jerry plugs on through Greenlee, Graham September 25, 2015 By Jon Johnson [images http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/eacourier.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/b0/7b039660-6228-11e5-9337-370c983e31f5/5602fc562518a.image.jpg?resize=620%2C349 Charging at Tyler's http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/eacourier.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/a6/aa6633f4-6228-11e5-97d2-7fed4965b308/5602fc93d5f29.image.jpg?resize=620%2C468 In Greenlee County ] The Johnny Appleseed of electric vehicles, Jerry “EV Jerry” Asher recently made his fourth annual pilgrimage through Graham and Greenlee counties during his Plug'n All Around AZ tour, spreading the word about electric vehicles and mapping charging stations. Asher's tour takes him to each county's government seat as he tries to meet with the mayors in each city. One of his goals is to convince businesses to open their doors to car charging to promote electric vehicle owners to use their vehicles to visit the areas. He said for a minimal amount of electricity, businesses can benefit from EV drivers utilizing their services as their vehicles charge. Asher's vehicle, a Nissan Leaf, has roughly an 84-mile range and takes about four hours to fully charge at 220 volts, according to Nissan's Web site. Those who agree to allow charging are added to the map at www.plugshare.com so users can see where they can stop and charge during their travels. “Why not put Safford more on this map?” Asher said. The current map lists three public charging points in the Safford area: Roper Lake State Park, Lexington Pines Resort-Senior Community Park and Johnson Motors. In Greenlee County, two charging stations are listed as the Rode Inn Motel and Tyler's Taste of Texas BBQ, both located in Clifton. Johnson Motors Business Manager Harold Colvin said while he views the Nissan Leaf as a great in-town car, it's not quite reasonable for most people to take on a road trip to Phoenix or Tucson due to its limited range. “The vehicle itself makes a great deal more sense in an urban setting,” Colvin said. “It just doesn't make a great deal of sense in a rural community at this time. Now when they start getting the battery charged a little longer, then it's going to make a lot of sense.” Currently, vehicles with an extended range of more than 200 miles per charge, such as the Tesla Model S, cost significantly more than a conventional vehicle and run between $85,000 to $100,000-plus. However, Tesla has announced its Model 3, which will reportedly have a 200-plus mile range and cost roughly $40,000. Tesla also has built a nationwide network of superchargers where its vehicles can be charged up to 80 percent in as little as 20 minutes. There are 11 such stations in Arizona, mostly following interstates 8, 17 and 40. The superchargers offer free electricity for Tesla owners but are not compatible with other EV makers. In addition to Tesla, Chevrolet, which currently sells the gas/electric hybrid Volt and all-electric Spark (which has a range roughly the same as the Leaf) has announced its commitment to build its concept car, the Bolt, which will have a 200-plus mile range and cost around $38,000. And, according to Car and Driver, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn said the next Leaf will have a range of 249 miles on a single charge. All three of the lower-priced, long-range electric vehicles are expected to be available in 2017. Asher said EVs and charging stations are kind of like a chicken and the egg scenario on what came first but said, ultimately, both are necessary for each other to work. “The vehicles sort of came first, but to get the vehicles to the public we need to have charging stations out there,” he said. “Not many people are doing what I'm doing because I'm pushing the envelope on electrics by going all around the state.” Colvin said Asher has been the only customer to utilize its station to charge up a vehicle. Asher's interest in electric vehicles began in the early 1990s, when he worked at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. After hearing reports about the effects of pollution on the atmosphere and realizing that a finite amount of fossil fuel existed, Asher decided to begin doing his part to help the nation free itself from the financial grasp of costly, emission-laden gasoline. And with the use of solar power, the carbon footprint for an electric car is significantly lowered. “Electrics are coming,” Asher said. “We have all this solar that is just pouring into the gutter. We're a little solar mecca.” A battery problem delayed Asher's trip this year, but it was replaced on warranty through Nissan. He plans on finishing this trip at the end of September and starting his fifth annual trip in January. [© 2015 Eastern Arizona Courier] ... https://www.google.com/search?q
[EVDL] EVLN: £12k Citroen C-Zero & Peugeot iON EV price drop> batteries included
http://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/citroen-c-zero-and-peugeot-ion-prices-drop-to-11995-0924996852
Citroen C-Zero and Peugeot iON prices drop to £11,995
September 24, 2015 Gavin Braithwaite-Smith
[images
http://i0.wp.com/www.motoringresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Citroen-C-Zero-%C2%A311995.jpg?resize=1800%2C1200
Citroen C-Zero £11,995
http://i0.wp.com/www.motoringresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Peugeot-iON-%C2%A311995.jpg?resize=1800%2C1200
Peugeot iON £11,995
]
Good news! You can now buy a zero-emissions Citroen C-Zero or Peugeot iON
for as little as £11,995.
The Citroen C-Zero, Peugeot iON and Mitsubishi i-MiEV are the forgotten cars
of the electric vehicle (EV) sector. Back in 2009, when trials of the i-MiEV
commenced in the UK, EV technology was still in its infancy and few people
fancied taking the plunge. Fast forward six years and the likes of the
Nissan Leaf, BMW i3 and Tesla Model S have revolutionised the sector.
The quirky i-MiEV and its French siblings suffered from being too quick to
market – and a hefty price tag. A wildly optimistic pre-Plug-in Car Grant
(PICG) price tag of £38,699 was initially slapped on the electric
Mitsubishi, before it was dropped to a more respectable £28,990. Better, but
still too expensive.
Sadly for Citroen, Peugeot and Mitsubishi, as EV technology moved on, the
C-Zero/iON/i-MiEV simply became outmoded and overpriced. The French pair
were slightly cheaper at a little over £26,000, but even with the £5,000
saving, it was simply too much money.
But rather than let the electric cars gather dust, Citroen and Peugeot have
had the sense to drop the price tag to a more acceptable £16,995. Deduct the
PICG and that’s a suddenly-quite-appealing £11,995. Crucially, that price
includes the batteries.
So what does £11,995 buy in the electric car world?
Well a range of 93 miles is possible, but you’ll need to go easy on the
silent pedal to get that far. The 65hp electric motor will also propel the
C-Zero/iON to an unlikely top speed of 80mph. There’s enough room for four
tall adults and a respectable 166-litre boot. So what’s the catch?
Peugeot is only offering the iON through 22 specialist Peugeot iON dealers,
so you’ll need to make sure there’s one near you. You unlikely to find it a
particularly enjoyable car to drive and the real-world range is likely to be
closer to 60 miles. And it’s hardly the newest electric car on the market.
But at £11,995 you can almost forgive it all its sins. Unless of course you
paid £26,000 for one and are left with a used car headache. Glass’s recently
reported that electric cars are among the worst first-year depreciators,
with the Citroen C-Zero retaining just 32.07% after 12 months. Ouch.
[© motoringresearch.com]
http://www.thesundaily.my/node/330898
Fluence retread as Renault.fr,Dongfeng.cn 1st EV for China
28 September 2015
http://www.thesundaily.my/sites/default/files/imagecache/article/thesun/field/fluence%20ze_0.jpg
...
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/dongfeng-renault-announces-production-of-their-first-electric-vehicle/49138515
Dongfeng-Renault announces production of their first electric vehicle
For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-12k-Citroen-C-Zero-Peugeot-iON-EV-price-drop-batteries-included-tp4677819.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: OReGO> EV-road-taxation w/ GPS-representation, other states next?
% Writer concerned WI will have a WIeGO %
http://www.southmilwaukeenow.com/blogs/communityblogs/328664861.html
Oregon Wants to Install a GPS "Mileage Tracking Device" in Cars to Tax Per
Mile, Wisconsin Could Be Next
by Kristan Harris Sept. 22, 2015
[image
http://therundownlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mQHXNwi.jpg
(OReGO flyer)
video
https://youtu.be/yeINSddK3YY
What is OReGO?
OregonDOT Jun 17, 2015
OReGO is a new way to take care of our roads and bridges from the Oregon
Department of Transportation. OReGO charges drivers per mile instead of per
gallon at the pump. Learn how this innovative test-drive can help our state
and make driving more fun!
]
Device “Logs Your Trips” While Allowing You to Compete With Other Drivers
For Efficiency and Introduces a Tax on Green Vehicles.
The state of Oregon has launched a new program called OReGO, which requires
participants to install a GPS unit in their vehicle that charges them per
mile instead of per gallon at the pump.
OReGO implies that cars have become more efficient and as a result, less tax
money has come in to repair roads and bridges in their video titled “What is
OReGO”.
The volunteer program is very unlikely to entice electric car owners.
Electric vehicles obviously pay no fuel tax because they do not operate
using a taxed fuel. So programs like OReGO want to tax them and generate
revenue for the state.
The video claims “we pay for our roads whenever we fill up at the pump, it’s
called the gas tax. But as cars and trucks get better gas mileage, they use
less gas and pay less money for road and bridge maintenance. And some cars
don’t use any gas at all. What to do? Introducing OReGO. A new way to take
care of our transportation system. With OReGO you put a simple device in
your car and drive. Instead of paying per gallon at the pump, you pay 1.5
cents for every mile you drive. ”
The OReGO program also “logs your trips” and allows you to “compete with”
other drivers to “see who the more efficient driver is.” This gives the
state of Oregon access to sensitive information about your trends, locations
you like to hang out, interests and acquaintances.
Other issues include the devices incapability to tax appropriately due to
the monitoring devices inability to differentiate between public and
non-public roads. In their FAQ section OReGO claims that “the devices are
still in development, and later on some devices will be able to
differentiate between non-public and public road usage.”
The OReGO website gives more details about their volunteer program:
- OReGO volunteers will pay a road usage charge for the amount of miles
they drive, instead of the fuel tax.
- The OReGO road usage charge is set at 1.5 cents per mile.
- Volunteers will get a credit on their bill to offset the fuel tax they
pay at the pump.
- Volunteers will have their choice of secure mileage reporting options
offered by OReGO’s private-sector partners.
- Volunteers’ personal information will be kept secure and private.
- The first phase of OReGO is limited to 5,000 cars and light-duty
commercial vehicles.
OReGO published that other states are interested in creating tax per mile
programs including California, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois,
Maine, Delaware and Florida.
Future plans may include increased taxes for driving during rush hour or
trend targeted advertisements.
Will you be signing up for OReGO?
[© 2015 www.southmilwaukeenow.com]
For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-OReGO-EV-road-taxation-w-GPS-representation-other-states-next-tp4677818.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: $12k Pavez.cl Soki 2seat 3whl EV r:60km> removable 4.2kWh pack
http://www.vidalatinasd.com/news/2015/sep/23/chiles-first-electric-car-goes-on-sale-at-12000/ Chile's first electric car goes on sale at $12,000 Sept. 23, 2015 [image http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/img/photos/2015/09/23/11121361w_r900x493.jpg?122770e84b36f1c039d5c4c2ca15c2d8bc4ecd52 Soki, Chile's first electric car, with room for two people and a 60-kilometer (37-mile) range between charges, will sell for $12,000. EFE ] Santiago, Sep 23 (EFE). — Soki, Chile's first electric car, with room for two people and a 60kilometer (37mile) range between charges, will be introduced with a $12,000 price tag, one of the vehicle's creators said. "This electric car has room for a passenger along with the driver, and it is an update of vehicles we designed previously," Daniel Pavez, one of Soki's designers, told EFE. "It is improved in terms of energy efficiency, safety and engineering, and despite being bigger, it weighs 20 percent less." Soki, a word that means "two" in an [native-Chilean/indian] language from Chilean Patagonia, was developed in about eight months by VoZe EV, a company founded by Pavez. The environmentally friendly vehicle has a 10horsepower electric engine, steering wheel, ignition key and a 4.2kilowatt battery that recharges in just three hours. "In addition, this vehicle was designed for the city and can be charged with any common electric outlet, since we designed a battery that you can remove and carry anywhere," Pavez said. Soki combines the advantages of three means of transportation: a bicycle's economy and sustainability; a motorcycle's agility; and a car's comfort, the vehicle's designers said. The electric car's development was supported by the Production Promotion Corporation through its Business Program for Technological Innovation, which helps fund projects for the development or improvement of new products and market innovations. At Soki's unveiling, the designers said they were still improving some features and delivery of the first limited production run of 10 units was scheduled for March 2016. In coming weeks, Pavez and his team plan to visit 11 cities across Chile to promote the car and show Chilean innovators that they can make their ideas a reality by developing advanced technology. [© vidalatinasd.com] ... http://www.laprensasa.com/309_america-in-english/3356496_chile-s-first-electric-car-goes-on-sale-at-12-000.html Chile's first electric car goes on sale at $12,000 CHILE AUTOMOBILES | 23 de Septiembre de 2015 http://www.latercera.com/noticia/tendencias/2015/09/659-648299-9-asi-es-soki-el-primer-primer-automovil-electrico-chileno.shtml Así es "Sôki", el primer automóvil eléctrico chileno [es>translate.google>en] This is "Soki", the first Chilean electric car It will be sold massively at a cost of $ 12,000, has an electric motor with a power equivalent to 10 horsepower, battery that is charged in just 3 hours and range of 60 kilometers. EFE September 22, 2015 [image http://static.latercera.com/20150922/2186725.jpg (concept model) ] "Soki" is the name of the first Chilean electric car that will be marketed massively, for an estimated price of $ 12,000, and that stands between ecological for autonomy of about 60 kilometers, stability and two-seater model alternatives, reported today its creators. "The electric vehicle has room for a second occupant and is an update of a car that previously designed. It is better in terms of energy efficiency, safety and engineering, is a vehicle even be bigger weighs 20% less" said Daniel Pavez, one of the creators. "Soki", which selknam language or one, nomadic ethnic group inhabiting the Chilean Patagonia, means "two", was developed in about eight months VoZe EV, a company created by the industrial mechanic Pavez. This vehicle, as indicated by the Chilean entrepreneur, is the second power project developed by his team, after which in 2014 filed their Lüfke model, which was based on an automotive design rather than an invention and it took about three years build. "The main quality that can offer you this car is the feeling of comfort and security, with a lighter size is more like a motorcycle, in fact, legal in Chile to have three wheels becomes a motorcycle, but with the operating costs of a bicycle, "explained Pavez. Unlike Lüfke, the new ecological vehicle has an electric motor that gives a power equivalent to 10 horsepower, steering wheel, ignition key and a larger battery of 4.2 kilowatts, which is charged in just 3 hours. "In addition, this vehicle is designed for all city and can be loaded into any outlet, because we developed a removable battery that can take everywhere," he added the industrial mechanic. According to its creators, "Soki" combines the advantages of three means of transport in an intelligent solution, which is the economy and sustainability of a bicycle, a motorcycle agility and comfort of a car. The development of electric vehicles was supported by CORFO (Corfo), through the Enterprise Techno
