[EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

It seems that the numbers don't lie.  There is now a proven design which will 
allow you very good range with a small battery pack and good speed.  The 
Stella.  My next project after the electric motorcycle will be a road going 
vehicle with a top of solar panels.  The Stella proves ugly is good at least 
for a family solar car.  I'm going to build mine using a Leaf battery pack.  It 
will be heavier than the Stella and have more battery capacity  but that is not 
set in stone.I will make a tear drop tube frame and cover it using light 
plastic or abs sheet.  The vehicle will look like a tadpole with a wide tail.  
The Stella proves you can have a very blunt front edge and still have efficient 
CD.  I'll use four hub motors.   Seating for four or 6 will be slightly 
recumbent.  Small space in rear for storage.  It will be very similar to the 
Stella in looks but a lot simpler.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel.  It 
would be nice if it could cruise at 25 or
 thirty mph and still charge the battery.However I'd be happy if it would 
charge in a day of bright sunlight and have a 200 mile range.  Now to source 
the parts.  That's where the group can help.  The Stella used individual solar 
panels laminated into the roof of the vehicle.  What is the best to use to get 
at least 1.2kw?  Bicycle hub motors.  What are the most efficient for the 
money?  Using four if they are all 1 watt motors this should do the job for 
freeway speeds.  A Rudman charger of some sort unless the solar panels are 
enough.  Simple disc brakes when not using regen.  I'll be making the frame 
from bicycle chromoly.  I'm going to try to get Zzipper to make the 
windshield..  All comments are welcome.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Ben Goren via EV]

While it sure sounds like a fun project...by far the easiest way to have a 
solar-powered car is to leave the panels at home, on the roof of the garage or 
home. Unless I'm sorely mistraken, a significant fraction of the EVs owned by 
people reading these words are already solar-powered.

Not to discourage you from what, again, sounds like a fun project! I'd just 
suggest that you might want to present it not so much as a solar-powered car 
but as a super-efficient EV that, oh-by-the-way, carries its solar panels with 
it as opposed to the large-and-growing population of garden-variety 
solar-powered cars that leave their solar panels at home.

Cheers,

b&

On Sep 26, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> It seems that the numbers don't lie.  There is now a proven design which will 
> allow you very good range with a small battery pack and good speed.  The 
> Stella.  My next project after the electric motorcycle will be a road going 
> vehicle with a top of solar panels.  The Stella proves ugly is good at least 
> for a family solar car.  I'm going to build mine using a Leaf battery pack.  
> It will be heavier than the Stella and have more battery capacity  but that 
> is not set in stone.I will make a tear drop tube frame and cover it using 
> light plastic or abs sheet.  The vehicle will look like a tadpole with a wide 
> tail.  The Stella proves you can have a very blunt front edge and still have 
> efficient CD.  I'll use four hub motors.   Seating for four or 6 will be 
> slightly recumbent.  Small space in rear for storage.  It will be very 
> similar to the Stella in looks but a lot simpler.  I don't want to reinvent 
> the wheel.  It would be nice if it could cruise at 25 or
> thirty mph and still charge the battery.However I'd be happy if it would 
> charge in a day of bright sunlight and have a 200 mile range.  Now to source 
> the parts.  That's where the group can help.  The Stella used individual 
> solar panels laminated into the roof of the vehicle.  What is the best to use 
> to get at least 1.2kw?  Bicycle hub motors.  What are the most efficient for 
> the money?  Using four if they are all 1 watt motors this should do the 
> job for freeway speeds.  A Rudman charger of some sort unless the solar 
> panels are enough.  Simple disc brakes when not using regen.  I'll be making 
> the frame from bicycle chromoly.  I'm going to try to get Zzipper to make the 
> windshield..  All comments are welcome.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I have 200W of solar panels on the roof of my Prius.  Did it in 2007.  THen
realized, why in the world waste time with 15 SqFt of solar panels on the
roof of my car when I have 1500 sqft on the roof of my house!

And, in 2013, the cost of 250W home-roof top panels only cost $200 compared
to the $2400 cost of the ones on my car roof (that can bend to fit the
roof).  The cost of HOME solar panels is down to $0.70 a Watt.  The cost of
the small scale car roof panels REMAIN at $10/watt.

So to me, the TEN times cost of putting solar on the 15 sqft of car roof
compared to the 100 TIMES larger area on my house tells me it is ONE
THOUSAND times more cost effective to put solar panels on my House roof
compared to on the roof of the car.

Sure, I can brag that I pickup 1 km of FREE car range for each hour parked
in the summer sun, but I can also get that  for FREE when I plug into my
home solar for just 5 minutes.

Been there, don't that.  The T-shirt wasn't worth it.

See the car:  http://aprs.org/my-EVs.html

Bob, WB4APR

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> It seems that the numbers don't lie.  There is now a proven design which
> will allow you very good range with a small battery pack and good speed.
> The Stella.  My next project after the electric motorcycle will be a road
> going vehicle with a top of solar panels.  The Stella proves ugly is good
> at least for a family solar car.  I'm going to build mine using a Leaf
> battery pack.  It will be heavier than the Stella and have more battery
> capacity  but that is not set in stone.I will make a tear drop tube frame
> and cover it using light plastic or abs sheet.  The vehicle will look like
> a tadpole with a wide tail.  The Stella proves you can have a very blunt
> front edge and still have efficient CD.  I'll use four hub motors.
>  Seating for four or 6 will be slightly recumbent.  Small space in rear for
> storage.  It will be very similar to the Stella in looks but a lot
> simpler.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel.  It would be nice if it could
> cruise at 25 or
>  thirty mph and still charge the battery.However I'd be happy if it
> would charge in a day of bright sunlight and have a 200 mile range.  Now to
> source the parts.  That's where the group can help.  The Stella used
> individual solar panels laminated into the roof of the vehicle.  What is
> the best to use to get at least 1.2kw?  Bicycle hub motors.  What are the
> most efficient for the money?  Using four if they are all 1 watt motors
> this should do the job for freeway speeds.  A Rudman charger of some sort
> unless the solar panels are enough.  Simple disc brakes when not using
> regen.  I'll be making the frame from bicycle chromoly.  I'm going to try
> to get Zzipper to make the windshield..  All comments are welcome.
> Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

​Being a product development​ engineer, this strikes me as a HUGE project.
Even if you're not looking for professional results.  I sense that you
understand this is not something you'll be able to toss off in a weekend,
but the key issue as I see it is this - how much time and effort will you
need to invest to ensure that your large investment results in something
worth the investment?

What will be the operating envelope for this vehicle?  If it's going to be
out in traffic - a cage among the cars and not just a lone cyclist near the
shoulder, it needs some crash protection.  Bicycle tube won't cut it.  It
is possible to make a real car extremely light and still safe, but your
options are limited.  Go to an SCCA road race at a local track, wander
around the pits and look at the smaller sports racing cars. Also locost
construction techniques(Google it).  Then realize that including operating
doors complicates things dramatically in terms of chassis strength.

Another reason to move away from bicycle-think and more toward a very light
but real car, is that you're going to have a hard time finding or adapting
components for a car built with bike tech.  Not only that, but a bike-ish
car amounts to coloring far enough outside the lines that most rules of
thumb you'll be tempted to rely on will be useless.  You're on your own.

Do you want to design and build your steering system and all suspension
parts from scratch?  Car stuff will be far too heavy for a bike-ish car.
If Zzipper makes your windshield (presumably from plastic), how will you
implement wipers that don't turn it into a scratched up haze?  Without
wipers you'll never get a plate for it.  Speaking of which, how will you
implement a hyper-lightweight parking brake that passes inspection?  These
are only a few questions of dozens you'll have to work out to make this
successful.

I'd suggest making this a mental/sketching/calculating/spreadsheet project
for quite a while before you buy any parts, cut metal or shape plastic.
Pay attention to the interplay of different aspects and the compromises.
You'll be surprised how much it changes and improves.  Trust me, it's a lot
easier, quicker and cheaper changing things in the design stage than going
through multiple prototypes.  And you'll get a better final result.

Whatever direction you go, best of luck!

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Indeed - numbers don't lie.
A decent family car has no more roof surface than max 15 x 6ft
or about 90 sqft. At current (low cost) solar panel efficiency,
the max you could get out of that is around 12W per sqft (at perfect
angle
of irradiation, so in practice, a lot less!) which means you might get
around 1kW from this roof, or about 5 kWh per day since the sun moves
along the sky so you can count on approx 5 full sun hours each day.
That means that if you drive less than 20 miles avg per day, you can
drive on the solar roof alone if you keep it in full sun all day. No
parking under trees or in covered parking garage or behind a building.
If you want to do a 200 miles trip (besides battery capacity concerns)
you need to park and charge your car for 10 days straight to accumulate
the approx 50 kWh that is needed to go that distance. Question is if
your pack will contain that. More likely your pack will be half that
size, you you can charge 5 days straight and go 100 miles at freeway
speed, maybe this is sufficient to do 200 miles at 25 MPH but who wants
to sit for 8 hours doing residential street speed?

BTW, which car has a flat 90 sqft straight roof surface and is
aerodynamic?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
via EV
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 3:52 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

It seems that the numbers don't lie.  There is now a proven design which
will allow you very good range with a small battery pack and good speed.
The Stella.  My next project after the electric motorcycle will be a
road going vehicle with a top of solar panels.  The Stella proves ugly
is good at least for a family solar car.  I'm going to build mine using
a Leaf battery pack.  It will be heavier than the Stella and have more
battery capacity  but that is not set in stone.I will make a tear drop
tube frame and cover it using light plastic or abs sheet.  The vehicle
will look like a tadpole with a wide tail.  The Stella proves you can
have a very blunt front edge and still have efficient CD.  I'll use four
hub motors.   Seating for four or 6 will be slightly recumbent.  Small
space in rear for storage.  It will be very similar to the Stella in
looks but a lot simpler.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel.  It would
be nice if it could cruise at 25 or
 thirty mph and still charge the battery.However I'd be happy if it
would charge in a day of bright sunlight and have a 200 mile range.  Now
to source the parts.  That's where the group can help.  The Stella used
individual solar panels laminated into the roof of the vehicle.  What is
the best to use to get at least 1.2kw?  Bicycle hub motors.  What are
the most efficient for the money?  Using four if they are all 1 watt
motors this should do the job for freeway speeds.  A Rudman charger of
some sort unless the solar panels are enough.  Simple disc brakes when
not using regen.  I'll be making the frame from bicycle chromoly.  I'm
going to try to get Zzipper to make the windshield..  All comments are
welcome.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle at 30 
to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35 wh per km 
which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

When I say bicycle I mean chromoly tubing welded space frame.  Probably 2  
inch.  I'll be copying the Stella doors which hinge up.  They don't have 
wipers.  They use water shedding technology. Stella has a round windshield.  
Wipers would b a problem.  I'm working on it.  LR

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Sep 2014 at 18:08, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> BTW, which car has a flat 90 sqft straight roof surface and is
> aerodynamic?

This is what Lawrence is talking about :

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4671714


http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2014/09/24/stella-500-mile-solar-powered-
electric-vehicle/

http://tinyurl.com/qh2f6ox

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385976/Stella-solar-powered-
family-car-travels-420-miles-sunny-energy-positive.html

http://tinyurl.com/lyq3n6o

Estimating from the size of a person's hand near the PV panels in one photo, 
I'd estimate that the car has somewhat less than 90 sq ft of PV.  I'd guess 
closer to 60, but I could be wrong.  In any case, the ENTIRE top of the 
vehicle is covered, literally nose to tail.  This PV array is claimed to 
produce either 1.2kW or 1.5kW, depending on the source.  Presumably that's 
under ideal conditions - fine if you're driving in San Diego, maybe not so 
fine here in cloudy Ohio.

Supposedly they got the car to run on 50 watts (!).  I haven't found that 
claim elsewhere, but that's what Lawrence says the "day time running system 
including lights" uses.  

I find this impossible to believe.  My e-bike cruses at 15mph, typically 
using between 150 and 250 watts (depending on terrain and how much I pedal). 
My bike weighs 50lb.  Their car weighs around 900lb.  You do the math, and 
tell me how they manage 50 watts.

All that aside, the principle here reminds me of the solar racers, highly 
optimized engineering-challenge vehicles where cost is no object.  Most 
solar racers are developed in academic settings with hundreds of thousands 
of dollars in (largely donated) components and materials.  Tens of thousands 
of labor hours go into them, made possible in part by teams of students who 
volunteer their time.  The tools and workshops are provided by the 
university, or are donated.

The result is a super-efficient vehicle suited only to one purpose, winning 
the prize in a solar race.  Solar racers by and large are not practical for 
everyday use.  They're notoriously uncomfortable, and frankly most of them 
would be pulverized in a low speed road accident.   

The folks who built Stella, from a university in The Netherlands, claim 
they've made their solar racer more practical and comfortable.  Unlike the 
other racers it does indeed carry more than one person.  It does not seem to 
have doors, however.  (No word on the safety issues.)  

The builders claim the PV cost them only UKP 2600 (about US$4200), but I'm 
skeptical.  (Of course $4200 also buys a fair amount of batteries.)

The drive system for an EV like this would have to be highly optimized.  
Every compromise you make so that it's buildable in your garage instead of a 
university machine shop is going to cost efficiency.  If the typical home EV 
converter built an EV like this, he might end up with something interesting. 
 Would it manage to be, as these students claim, a "car you never have to 
plug in" (100% self-solar powered)?  That I'm not so sure about.  

The other problem I see with this is that you're building a high-precision 
complex machine from scratch.  Look at how many kit cars never get finished, 
and this would be even more work than those!  You'd have to be really, 
really serious about building it, truly dedicated.

If that's you, my hat's off to you.  Personally, I wouldn't try building 
something like this because (1) I don't want to devote all my time to it; 
and (2) I'd be afraid that I wouldn't have it done in time to drive it 
before I was too old (or dead).  But hey, I'm kinda old already.  ;-)

I think this would be a great project for someone who's dedicated to the EV 
cause, and fairly wealthy.  Duplicating this prototype could work, if you 
could afford to hire out most or all of the labor and fabrication (sort of 
like what Neil Young did with his LincVolt).  I can see someone like Ed 
Begley Jr commissioning something like this, for example.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Sep 2014 at 19:44, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle at 30
> to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35 wh per km
> which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.

There really isn't enough information here to judge the veracity of this 
"run on the panels alone" claim.  

One thing that's missing is the test conditions for that 35 Wh/km (about 58 
Wh/mi).  FWIW, though, the first-generation Solectria Force sedan (2100lb 
weight) could do just under 150 Wh/mi, at a steady 45mph.

Also missing is any qualification for the claimed 1.2kW (or, in some 
publications, 1.5kW) PV output.  Is that in full sun?  At noon, when the sun 
is more or less overhead and providing maximum insolation to those (mostly 
horizontal) PVs?  Is that an average from 10am to 2pm in San Diego?  What 
would it be at 5:30pm when you're driving home from work?  What if you're 
driving in Cleveland, Ohio, where there's a lot more cloud cover than in San 
Diego?

There are some big problems with carrying your PV on your back in a car.  

1. Your peak output will only be for a short time each day, when the sun is 
as nearly perpendicular as possible to the plane of the PV panels, and only 
when you're driving in the right direction, with no cloud cover, no trees, 
and no buildings shading the panels.  The real world of driving a car where 
you want to go just doesn't mesh well with the way you get maximum power out 
of a PV system.

2. Weather is a problem.

3. Vandalism is a problem.  You're going to park over $4k worth of PV on the 
streets of San Francisco?  Seriously?

While building an efficient EV is definitely a great goal and there may 
indeed be some good ideas for that in this design, I really think you'd be 
better off putting your PV on your house instead.  Your call though.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The Stella uses 35wh per km.weighs388 kg.  Has a 16 kw battery.  Size is 
499x165x115 cm.  They fit 1.2 kw of panels laminated into the roof.  Stella at 
40 mph can still charge the battery.  Daytime range is780 km.  Night range is 
430 km.  Still substantial.  Engine power 42 kw.  You can now see why I am so 
excited about this vehicle.  LAWRENCE RHODES

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Sep 2014 at 22:27, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The Stella uses 35wh per km.weighs388 kg.  Has a 16 kw battery.  

Do you really mean it's capable of producing 16 kW (about a third of the 
motor's peak power), or do you mean 16 kWh?

> Size is 499x165x115 cm.  

This is a little longer than a Ford Explorer SUV, a couple inches narrower 
than a Toyota Yaris minicar, and about the same height as a Lambourghini 
Aventador LP 700-4 - an unusual shape, to be sure!

> Stella at 40 mph can still charge the battery.  

It would be wonderful to have an EV that could run entirely on the solar 
energy it produced by itself, in real time.  A lot of folks would like to 
believe this is possible.  It's one of those EV "holy grail" things.  

Maybe someday, with some fantastic high-efficiency PV, it'll happen.  And 
hey, maybe even with its garden-variety off-the-shelf PV, this very vehicle 
can do it for a while - as long as it's on a flat road in the full desert 
sun somewhere.  Such as, say, the Australian Outback.

But in daily use on real world roads, where it might be cloudy or sunny, 
where trees and structures often shade the streets?  E, I don't think 
so.

And as I showed before, based on the energy consumption and PV output 
specifications provided for this vehicle, the claim is just not credible on 
its face.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  

Build one and prove me wrong.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
While it is possible to run off the panels alone, it will not attain 40MPH.
Even in full (straight above noontime summer sun) when the panels produce
1200W, the max speed from just the panels is 1200W/35Wh per km = 34km/h which 
means 21 MPH max speed.
Only by supplementing the solar power from the panels with battery power is the 
Stella able to reach 40MPH. The math is simple.
NOTE that this does not take into account wind and other resistance effects, so 
the actual attainable speed is likely slightly different as the consumption 
will likely be different from 35Wh per km at 21 and 40 MPH.
But it won't be much different and the idea stays the same - there is a (low) 
speed under which the Stella will consume less than the panels in full sun 
produce and above that it will drain the battery. Of course, when there is a 
need to slow down the battery will again be charged a little, but at 40MPH 
constant speed on flat terrain there will be a constant drain from the battery 
at about the same rate as the energy produced by the panels, since the power 
demand is about double what the panels deliver.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 7:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle at 30 
to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35 wh per km 
which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 27 Sep 2014 at 0:53, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>  there is a (low) speed under which the Stella will consume less than
> the panels in full sun produce and above that it will drain the
> battery. 

This is precisely what I said in the previous message.  The car's specs as 
given don't support the claim that it can self-sustain 40mph purely from the 
PV input.

Now, IF the Wh/km specification actually refers to some speed well above 
40mph, or to a high-consumption non-ideal driving cycle - THEN it might 
indeed be possible for the vehicle to PV-sustain at that speed under ideal 
driving conditions.  They would have to be much more favorable conditions 
than those at which the Wh/km specification was measured.  

In fact, one would hope that a vehicle supposedly designed to compete in the 
Solar Challenge would be able to do just this - travel at more-or-less 
highway speeds using only energy from its PV input. That's precisely the 
Solar Challenge: "Crossing a continent in a single stage using only sunlight 
as fuel," according to their website.

But again, this car's specs >as published< don't support the claim.

Maybe someone familiar with the vehicle can clarify the specifications - 
specifically, the conditions under which the Wh/km figure were measured.

I would add that for an EV hobbyist, building a car like this would be one 
heck of an undertaking.  Maybe Lawrence can do it.  I would love to see him 
succeed.  I know I couldn't.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Lawrence,

Have you looked at thermoelectric generators?  I just did a precursory 
look and there are some products available but I'm not sure how they 
compare in terms of cost and density with solar.  However, cars are 
great at trapping heat and that gives and alternative (or combination?) 
way of capturing more energy.


Here's one link:

http://www.lairdtech.com/Products/Power-Products/Power-Generators/#.VCbSemfn_mE

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 26-Sep-14 8:38:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.


On 26 Sep 2014 at 18:08, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


 BTW, which car has a flat 90 sqft straight roof surface and is
 aerodynamic?


This is what Lawrence is talking about :

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4671714


http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2014/09/24/stella-500-mile-solar-powered-
electric-vehicle/

http://tinyurl.com/qh2f6ox

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385976/Stella-solar-powered-
family-car-travels-420-miles-sunny-energy-positive.html

http://tinyurl.com/lyq3n6o

Estimating from the size of a person's hand near the PV panels in one 
photo,
I'd estimate that the car has somewhat less than 90 sq ft of PV. I'd 
guess

closer to 60, but I could be wrong. In any case, the ENTIRE top of the
vehicle is covered, literally nose to tail. This PV array is claimed to
produce either 1.2kW or 1.5kW, depending on the source. Presumably 
that's
under ideal conditions - fine if you're driving in San Diego, maybe not 
so

fine here in cloudy Ohio.

Supposedly they got the car to run on 50 watts (!). I haven't found 
that
claim elsewhere, but that's what Lawrence says the "day time running 
system

including lights" uses.

I find this impossible to believe. My e-bike cruses at 15mph, typically
using between 150 and 250 watts (depending on terrain and how much I 
pedal).
My bike weighs 50lb. Their car weighs around 900lb. You do the math, 
and

tell me how they manage 50 watts.

All that aside, the principle here reminds me of the solar racers, 
highly

optimized engineering-challenge vehicles where cost is no object. Most
solar racers are developed in academic settings with hundreds of 
thousands
of dollars in (largely donated) components and materials. Tens of 
thousands
of labor hours go into them, made possible in part by teams of students 
who

volunteer their time. The tools and workshops are provided by the
university, or are donated.

The result is a super-efficient vehicle suited only to one purpose, 
winning
the prize in a solar race. Solar racers by and large are not practical 
for
everyday use. They're notoriously uncomfortable, and frankly most of 
them

would be pulverized in a low speed road accident.

The folks who built Stella, from a university in The Netherlands, claim
they've made their solar racer more practical and comfortable. Unlike 
the
other racers it does indeed carry more than one person. It does not 
seem to

have doors, however. (No word on the safety issues.)

The builders claim the PV cost them only UKP 2600 (about US$4200), but 
I'm

skeptical. (Of course $4200 also buys a fair amount of batteries.)

The drive system for an EV like this would have to be highly optimized.
Every compromise you make so that it's buildable in your garage instead 
of a
university machine shop is going to cost efficiency. If the typical 
home EV
converter built an EV like this, he might end up with something 
interesting.
 Would it manage to be, as these students claim, a "car you never have 
to

plug in" (100% self-solar powered)? That I'm not so sure about.

The other problem I see with this is that you're building a 
high-precision
complex machine from scratch. Look at how many kit cars never get 
finished,

and this would be even more work than those! You'd have to be really,
really serious about building it, truly dedicated.

If that's you, my hat's off to you. Personally, I wouldn't try building
something like this because (1) I don't want to devote all my time to 
it;

and (2) I'd be afraid that I wouldn't have it done in time to drive it
before I was too old (or dead). But hey, I'm kinda old already. ;-)

I think this would be a great project for someone who's dedicated to 
the EV
cause, and fairly wealthy. Duplicating this prototype could work, if 
you
could afford to hire out most or all of the labor and fabrication (sort 
of

like what Neil Young did with his LincVolt). I can see someone like Ed
Begley Jr commissioning something like this, for example.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:21 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> I would add that for an EV hobbyist, building a car like this would be one 
> heck of an undertaking.  Maybe Lawrence can do it.  I would love to see him 
> succeed.  I know I couldn't.

"Ditto."

The solar challenge is always and forever going to be a great way to push the 
boundaries of vehicular efficiency, because it places such an unavoidable and 
_very_ low limit on power consumption. You're never going to get more than a 
kilowatt per square meter of vehicular footprint under ideal sunny conditions, 
and that's just barely enough to power a perfectly-efficient vehicle with human 
passengers at freeway speeds. So, you don't need any sports governing body 
defining limits on engine size or vehicle weight or the like; just requiring 
the vehicle to be solar powered serves as a proxy for all those sorts of things.

But cover the car's parking space with optimally-oriented solar panels and, by 
definition, that parking space generates significantly more electricity than 
the car itself ever will; simple geometry guarantees this.

So, again, many -- at least a significant percentage, and possibly even a 
majority -- of electric vehicles are _already_ solar powered, which is as it 
should be. But, with rounding, 0.000% of solar-powered electric vehicles are or 
ever will carry their panels with them, and that's the way it's always going to 
be.

It's also the way it _should_ be: a self-solar-powered car's electricity is 
only ever going to move the car, but a solar-powered car that gets its 
electricity from house rooftop panels is going to move the car _and_ power all 
those household appliances _and,_ very possibly, some of the neighbor's 
household appliances as well. And all for much less money per watt-hour, so 
what's not to love?

Approach building a self-solar-powered car the same way you would any race 
vehicle: as an engineering challenge (and, presumably, one helluva fun 
project). But don't fool yourself into thinking it's even remotely practical or 
economical or has any widespread applications.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 27, 2014, at 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Have you looked at thermoelectric generators?

That would be Peltier coolers run in reverse. Not just heat-generating reverse 
as opposed to cooling (which is a matter of reversing the positive and negative 
leads), but taking an existing thermal gradient and transferring heat from the 
hot side to the cold side and getting electricity as a result.

It's not going to generate very much power. It's probably most commonly used in 
space applications where a radioactive source supplies the heat -- a nuclear 
battery, long-lived but low-power.

Next most common is for low-power applications where you've already got waste 
heat and don't need much power and, for whatever reason, it's easier and / or 
cheaper to use such a (generally expensive) device than to run a wire. As the 
blurb at the site you posted puts it:

> This device is not much bigger than a piece of confetti. In low-grade thermal 
> environments, the eTEG generates micro-watts of power – enough thermal energy 
> conversion to power remote sensors and other distributed devices.

I could see a winning solar challenge race car design that primarily uses PV 
panels but also uses TEGs to scavenge enough extra watts to eke out an extra 
car length over the runner-up by the end of the race...but that's assuming the 
added weight isn't a killer. Could just as easily be a net loss...especially 
once you take into account the need to cool the cold side. It's worth crunching 
the numbers on it, but might not be worth more.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[John Schaefer via EV]

This may be a relevant adventure story, now 5 years old, about lessons from a
Canadian solar car, which as far as I know still holds the distance record.
Google XOF1, or look at XOF1.com and you’ll find some references. The car
named XOF1 travelled more than 35,000 km in the US and Canada, using only
900 W of solar in 8 strings and about 3.8 kWh of Kokam cells. Marcelo never
charged from the grid.

One sunny day on a trip to Whitehorse the car travelled 300 miles, starting
with a fully charged battery. It accelerated zero to 50 in 6 seconds.
Efficiency is the key to this success; the car was very light and featured
no creature comforts. It looked like a giant cockroach, and in Alaska was
accused by a 911 caller of being not a cockroach but a UFO. A 3 wheeler, the
car was driven by a single hub motor in the rear.

The solar array lifted up on struts to allow the driver in and out of the
car, and when stationary it could be tilted to the right at any angle to
maximize charging current during morning and afternoon while the sun was low
in the sky. That was particularly important when it travelled north of the
Arctic Circle where the sun is always low in the sky.

Its developer Marcelo da Luz, assisted by many supporters, built it with
goals to build a solar car and set a world distance record, and take on a
real challenge for a solar car—travel above the Arctic Circle. His broader
mission was to fulfill a dream to inspire others--particularly children--to
accomplish their own dreams, and to benefit mankind and the environment. 

I’d conclude that spectacular solar car performance is possible if one is
willing to be uncomfortable while driving it. Surely more comfort is
possible with less spectacular performance.

Here are some stats:
Weight  Approx 300 kg (w driver)
Occupants   1 (driver)
Length  5 m
Width   1.8 m
Height  0.9 m
Ground clearance0.4 m
Frontal area0.723 sq. m
Weight distribution 65% front, 35% rear
Wheel track 1.2 m
Wheelbase   2.0 m
Wheel configuration 3 (2 front, 1 rear)
Tires   SLR93, 90 psi
Chassis Polyurethane foam, covered with carbon fiber reinforced fiberglass
Body (upper shell)  Foam, covered with fiberglass
SteeringHandlebar
Front brake Hydraulic disc
Rear brake  Electrical (regen, motor)
Battery EP Kokam, Li-Ion, 40 Ah, 27 Cells
Battery voltage 96 v
Motor   NGM, brushless dc, 84-108 v
Solar cells Siemens, mono-crystalline, 15%
Array area  7.144 sq. m




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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Danny Ames via EV]

I meet the Stella driver at the recent US Guinness EV event in Cupertino Ca. 
and he stated their Photo voltaic cells are rated at1400 watts and are 22.5% 
efficient. The battery is 15.5 KW hour pack.

Danny Ames


 From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV.  Help everyone.
 

I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle at 30 
to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35 wh per km 
which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Michael Ross via EV]

22.5% efficient is not very likely a realistic assessment.  That tops
Sunpower (who does have a flexible panel now) 1400W would be 4 of the
regular home installed panels.

Any idea of the make and model?

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Danny Ames via EV 
wrote:

> I meet the Stella driver at the recent US Guinness EV event in Cupertino
> Ca. and he stated their Photo voltaic cells are rated at1400 watts and are
> 22.5% efficient. The battery is 15.5 KW hour pack.
>
> Danny Ames
>
> 
>  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV.  Help everyone.
>
>
> I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle
> at 30 to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35
> wh per km which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.  Lawrence
> Rhodes
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The Stella "running system"  (lights and such not propulsion) uses 50 watts.  
The Stella propulsion system consumes 35wh per km.  Pretty good.  This could 
possibly be done with 4 high efficiency hub motors.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

But in daily use on real world roads, where it might be cloudy or sunny, 
where trees and structures often shade the streets?  E, I don't think 
so.

And as I showed before, based on the energy consumption and PV output 
specifications provided for this vehicle, the claim is just not credible on 
its face.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  

Build one and prove me wrong.


Well it's like any EV.  You use it as is and see what it can do.  However it 
did win the challenge.  I did see it go up the coast near my house...the hill 
climbing is impressive in itself.  It won't win any speed contests but if it 
started a hill on Route 1 at 80mph it finished at 80.  However if it got stuck 
at the bottom at a beach entrance you'd spend more time climbing for sure.  
That said since it is a winner see what it can do.  EVen in Ohio you get a fair 
amount of sunlight.  You are not going 500 miles EVery day.  My relatives have 
big cars that go maybe 10 miles a day.  Yes I was born in OHIO.  So the rolling 
hills and partly cloudy skys would still allow this vehicle to be more than 
practical.  BTW the doors hinge up and are doors.  The cab is completely sealed 
but not hermetically just aerodynamically.  EVen if you had a vehicle with half 
the capability.  It would be a better EV than anyone on the list has now!.  
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Well DUH!  Your Prius is no where big enough or efficient enough to take 
advantage of a system like that and get any real range.  Now put that on lets 
say a bicycle and well you'd get a hundred miles...Right tool for the right 
job. (you'd have to pedal too) Lawrence Rhodes..


>
> From: Robert Bruninga 
>To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
>List  
>Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 4:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.
> 
>
>
>I have 200W of solar panels on the roof of my Prius.  Did it in 2007.  THen 
>realized, why in the world waste time with 15 SqFt of solar panels on the roof 
>of my car when I have 1500 sqft on the roof of my house!
>
>
>And, in 2013, the cost of 250W home-roof top panels only cost $200 compared to 
>the $2400 cost of the ones on my car roof (that can bend to fit the roof).  
>The cost of HOME solar panels is down to $0.70 a Watt.  The cost of the small 
>scale car roof panels REMAIN at $10/watt.  
>
>
>So to me, the TEN times cost of putting solar on the 15 sqft of car roof 
>compared to the 100 TIMES larger area on my house tells me it is ONE THOUSAND 
>times more cost effective to put solar panels on my House roof compared to on 
>the roof of the car.
>
>
>Sure, I can brag that I pickup 1 km of FREE car range for each hour parked in 
>the summer sun, but I can also get that  for FREE when I plug into my home 
>solar for just 5 minutes.
>
>
>Been there, don't that.  The T-shirt wasn't worth it.
>
>
>See the car:  http://aprs.org/my-EVs.html
>
>
>Bob, WB4APR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
>wrote:
>
>It seems that the numbers don't lie.  There is now a proven design which will 
>allow you very good range with a small battery pack and good speed.  The 
>Stella.  My next project after the electric motorcycle will be a road going 
>vehicle with a top of solar panels.  The Stella proves ugly is good at least 
>for a family solar car.  I'm going to build mine using a Leaf battery pack.  
>It will be heavier than the Stella and have more battery capacity  but that is 
>not set in stone.I will make a tear drop tube frame and cover it using light 
>plastic or abs sheet.  The vehicle will look like a tadpole with a wide tail.  
>The Stella proves you can have a very blunt front edge and still have 
>efficient CD.  I'll use four hub motors.   Seating for four or 6 will be 
>slightly recumbent.  Small space in rear for storage.  It will be very similar 
>to the Stella in looks but a lot simpler.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel. 
> It would be nice if it could cruise at 25 or
>> thirty mph and still charge the battery.However I'd be happy if it would 
>> charge in a day of bright sunlight and have a 200 mile range.  Now to source 
>> the parts.  That's where the group can help.  The Stella used individual 
>> solar panels laminated into the roof of the vehicle.  What is the best to 
>> use to get at least 1.2kw?  Bicycle hub motors.  What are the most efficient 
>> for the money?  Using four if they are all 1 watt motors this should do 
>> the job for freeway speeds.  A Rudman charger of some sort unless the solar 
>> panels are enough.  Simple disc brakes when not using regen.  I'll be making 
>> the frame from bicycle chromoly.  I'm going to try to get Zzipper to make 
>> the windshield..  All comments are welcome.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Danny Ames via EV]

Good question, I don't know the make & model. I wish I had asked.

They do look exactly like the Maxeon Cell to me:
http://us.sunpower.com/why-sunpower/high-efficiency-solar-technology/



Maybe they provided the Stella team specially tested as exceptionally efficient 
panels from the lab.

* Which Solar Panels Are The Most Efficient? - CleanTechnica
cleantechnica.com/2014/02/02/which-solar-panels-most-efficient/ * 
* Feb 2, 2014 - 21.5% SunPower solar modules hold the commercial solar 
module ...Best Research Cell Efficiencies Most Efficient Solar Panels Which 
Ones?
* 21.5% SunPower solar modules hold the commercial solar module 
efficiency record. SunPower’s SPR-327NE-WHT-D modules are also the leading 
solar modules in solar module yield field tests, and other SunPower solar 
modules come in #2 and #3 in those tests. (For those of you to who this matters 
or is interesting, SunPower is a US-based solar panel company.)


From:Michael Ross 
To: Danny Ames ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.
 


22.5% efficient is not very likely a realistic assessment.  That tops Sunpower 
(who does have a flexible panel now) 1400W would be 4 of the regular home 
installed panels.

Any idea of the make and model?


On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Danny Ames via EV  wrote:

I meet the Stella driver at the recent US Guinness EV event in Cupertino Ca. 
and he stated their Photo voltaic cells are rated at1400 watts and are 22.5% 
efficient. The battery is 15.5 KW hour pack.
>
>Danny Ames
>
>
> From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 7:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV.  Help everyone.
>
>
>I want my vehicle to be so efficient that the panels can run the vehicle at 30 
>to 40 mph under bright sunlight.  The Stella has an efficiency of 35 wh per km 
>which makes it possible to run on the panels alone.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
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-- 

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or should I help others gain happiness?  
Dalai Lama 

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
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Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
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