Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. I see that some have recommended LEAFs, but I personally would have a hard time recommending one for Phoenix if you need 50 miles of range on the freeway in the heat and expect to keep that range for years to come. Phoenix was the epicenter of rapid capacity loss for the 2011-2012 LEAF, after two years owners could not make it 50 miles per charge. Now, if you lose enough capacity Nissan will install a new supposedly heat-tolerant battery (or you can buy one for about $6k installed if no longer under warranty) that should survive Arizona heat better, but no-one is really sure how long even the heat-tolerant lizard pack will last there. After 4 years in southern California my '11 LEAF with 2 capacity bars lost will do just about 50 miles on the freeway with light air conditioning usage from 100% to the first low-battery warning at which point there's about 12 miles of range left. In my opinion, all the affordable EVs are risky investments for someone on a limited budget who need a reliable 50 miles of range. They might consider a used plug-in hybrid, like a Volt, whose battery appears to be holding up much better in the heat. But they are also priced more than the LEAF on the used market. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. I planted the bug after I drove them back from the airport last night. We'll see what, if anything it develops into...but I'm pretty sure it's now on their short list...and I don't think they had anything at all on their short list until now. Thanks again! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150517/b1451eba/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
I love mine as well. I let a friend drive who was trying to find a Leaf, two weeks later he drove up in an i-MiEV. Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people. Some people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability. And, used prices are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are coming due. Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of 2014 or 2016 models. (Incidentally, I don't know of any teething pains on the iMiev; ther's been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack failures in the US.) You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of information including several threads on buying a used iMiev. Good luck! Dan - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Very interesting...there's a 2012 w/ 15k miles listed not far from here for just under $9k; Leafs look like they tend to be at least half again as much. Something like that belongs on a short list. Thanks! b On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people. Some people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability. And, used prices are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are coming due. Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of 2014 or 2016 models. (Incidentally, I don't know of any teething pains on the iMiev; ther's been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack failures in the US.) You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of information including several threads on buying a used iMiev. Good luck! Dan - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150510/4e7a9f44/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people. Some people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability. And, used prices are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are coming due. Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of 2014 or 2016 models. (Incidentally, I don't know of any teething pains on the iMiev; ther's been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack failures in the US.) You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of information including several threads on buying a used iMiev. Good luck! Dan - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Thanks for the links. Nice to have them copied to one place so I can send them to someone interested in a Leaf. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675412.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On 05/06/2015 05:00 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: ...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b I think that was the first year (2011?). The year I had. I don't begrudge Nissan not getting their battery sorted out before selling cars. I do begrudge them refusing to fix the bad batteries. Even though they are supposedly fixed now, I will never buy another Nissan. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
The Leafs seem to be the most reliable as a population, at least I haven't run across information to the contrary yet, while the i3, e-Golf and 500e have some teething pains, the FFE has SSN events. Is there any website with data on reliability for all/most of the electrics ? On 5/6/2015 5:00 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: On May 6, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I don't follow your reasoning. There are reasons not to like a lease but the fixed income aspect is not usually one of them. In fact, often it's the opposite: people on fixed incomes like leases because they are predictable and the payments are (usually) lower than loan-to-buy payments. Sorry...I realize I left out a detail obvious enough to me I didn't think to include it...they won't be getting a loan, no matter the vehicle; it'll be cash, with the largest share coming from the (presumed) insurance settlement, and, if need be (and it likely would) supplemented from savings from either or both them and me. A quick search for a Leaf in my area (Seattle) shows several used ones for sale ranging from $11K and up. That's likely the sort of thing we'd wind up looking at. I guess what I'm asking from the list...is advice on which models are most likely to be good values as used vehicles given all the other considerations -- hot climate, ~50 mile range, freeway capable, reliable, etc. ...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On May 6, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I don't follow your reasoning. There are reasons not to like a lease but the fixed income aspect is not usually one of them. In fact, often it's the opposite: people on fixed incomes like leases because they are predictable and the payments are (usually) lower than loan-to-buy payments. Sorry...I realize I left out a detail obvious enough to me I didn't think to include it...they won't be getting a loan, no matter the vehicle; it'll be cash, with the largest share coming from the (presumed) insurance settlement, and, if need be (and it likely would) supplemented from savings from either or both them and me. A quick search for a Leaf in my area (Seattle) shows several used ones for sale ranging from $11K and up. That's likely the sort of thing we'd wind up looking at. I guess what I'm asking from the list...is advice on which models are most likely to be good values as used vehicles given all the other considerations -- hot climate, ~50 mile range, freeway capable, reliable, etc. ...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Chevy just lowered the price of their Spark EV. Al At 01:50 PM 5/6/2015, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
The Chevy Spark was on lease for 134 a month and Zero down. Hard to beat. Late in life it might be better to lease unless you are going to drive a lot of miles. The buy back is somewhat low so it might be a good long term investment in wheels but the Nissan Leaf might have the best deal as a replacement pack is 5500 dollars. There was also a 99 dollar lease on the Fiat 500. Lawrence Rhodes.. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150506/731fb13f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On 05/06/2015 05:03 PM, Al Lumas via EV wrote: Chevy just lowered the price of their Spark EV. I thought the Spark was a compliance car. Not available in Arizona. Am I wrong? I haven't seen any availability in Texas. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Might be worth checking out the lease options. I'm leasing a Smart ED for $124/mo with $250 down. A Smart's not the best freeway car but it's great around town. I've seen deals on Leafs for under $250/month. --Rick On 05/06/2015 04:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Thanks, but I don't think a lease is likely to be especially desirable. It's that fixed income Social Security bit...an extra triple digits per month would be a disturbingly large fraction of their budget. That's part of the reason why I think an EV would be ideal, if a suitable model is affordable; no more gasoline bills, and much cheaper per mile to charge. Once the purchase is made, it'd practically be free transportation for them. b On May 6, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Might be worth checking out the lease options. I'm leasing a Smart ED for $124/mo with $250 down. A Smart's not the best freeway car but it's great around town. I've seen deals on Leafs for under $250/month. --Rick On 05/06/2015 04:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On 05/06/2015 03:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. If they've been driving a Lincoln, they might not take to an imev. I've had a Tesla for two years and an imiev for 5 months. I much prefer to drive the imev where the range allows. In the winter here in Texas, the imiev range was about 50 miles without using the heater. The heated seats serve well enough. In current temperatures, 50-80, the range is more than 60. Haven't yet used the air conditioning. The imiev was $26k including TTL. Income tax credit is $7.5k and Texas has a $2.5k state rebate. So, $16k. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
I don't follow your reasoning. There are reasons not to like a lease but the fixed income aspect is not usually one of them. In fact, often it's the opposite: people on fixed incomes like leases because they are predictable and the payments are (usually) lower than loan-to-buy payments. A quick search for a Leaf in my area (Seattle) shows several used ones for sale ranging from $11K and up. Used might be an option since your parents presumably could not benefit from the tax incentive. For example, buying one for $20K with only 1265 miles on it could be very lucrative. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-May-15 2:07:53 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV? Thanks, but I don't think a lease is likely to be especially desirable. It's that fixed income Social Security bit...an extra triple digits per month would be a disturbingly large fraction of their budget. That's part of the reason why I think an EV would be ideal, if a suitable model is affordable; no more gasoline bills, and much cheaper per mile to charge. Once the purchase is made, it'd practically be free transportation for them. b On May 6, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Might be worth checking out the lease options. I'm leasing a Smart ED for $124/mo with $250 down. A Smart's not the best freeway car but it's great around town. I've seen deals on Leafs for under $250/month. --Rick On 05/06/2015 04:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Here are some links regarding LEAF batteries, warranties and replacement: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1081362_nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-covered-by-warranty-now http://insideevs.com/nissan-makes-good-on-battery-warranty-plesge-for-2011-2012-leaf-owners-software-update/ http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=13192 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30t=19667sid=08d58c219e5cba01e8d472a7289935c4 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168#p374490 Cheers, -Jamie On 5/6/15 4:06 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote: On 05/06/2015 05:00 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: ...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b I think that was the first year (2011?). The year I had. I don't begrudge Nissan not getting their battery sorted out before selling cars. I do begrudge them refusing to fix the bad batteries. Even though they are supposedly fixed now, I will never buy another Nissan. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
