Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

It was unclear to me who made the comment that “ Filling stations are owned by 
oil companies mostly.”.

I need to pipe up and say that this is false information.

Most oil companies divested from fueling stations years ago. They are owned by 
small businesses and by syndicates who may own a piece of many stations.  This 
is not all of them, and some may still be owned by oil companies, but this is 
not the norm.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 27, 2020, at 10:50 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla. 
> 
> Would you really want this?  Would you want GM to build filling stations 
> too?  
> 
>>> Yes, most definitely! Filling stations are owned by oil companies mostly. 
>>> If you want the public utilities to install them I am all for that.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting here, and I agree that 
> Tesla's charging network has been a success so far for (ahem) Tesla owners 
> only, but I think that any automaker building its own charging network would 
> be sorely tempted to fall into the rent-seeking that's gotten so common in 
> recent years.
>>> Tesla gave the automakers the offer to share in the network cost and 
>>> therefore share the network. They declined!
> 
> Think about it.  Would you want EVs - or ICEVs, for that matter - to be like 
> inkjet printers?  Look how much OEM ink cartridges cost, and how hard the 
> printer makers work to keep you from using third party or refilled carts.
>>> not sure the reference here. They already have their own proprietary 
>>> charging standards.
> Some manufacturers have even sent the printers ALREADY SOLD AND IN USE new 
> firmare, so they'll reject non-factory ink, or at least hassle the owners 
> about using it.  If automakers built their own filling stations and/or EV
> charging points, how long do you think it would be before they decided to 
> follow the printer companies' example?  
> 
>>> Not really the issue we are discussing. I was saying that they should pay 
>>> their own way and not rely on the government to solve the problem. If not, 
>>> then they need to remburse Tesla for their expense otherwise is an unfair 
>>> government subsidy to get people to buy their cars.
> 
> I can just see it - "Charge up at a GM station to enable our new turbo 
> acceleration feature."
> 
> Yeah, Tesla hasn't done anything like that yet.  No reason they couldn't, 
> though.  And who knows what they might be like 5, 10, 15 years from now?  
> Their finances or their ownership or their stock status could change.  I'd 
> be very surprised if they don't have big investors who'd love to see that 
> sweet never-ending money stream.  
> 
>>> Electricity is regulated by the department of energy. You have to follow 
>>> their rules.
> 
> 
>> Most of the stations I have seen in university parking or parks are
>> meant to be used when you are there not late at night. 
> 
> Maybe, but if they're not meant to be used at night, why aren't they powered 
> down and locked up after hours?  If they're on and available, and on the 
> charging maps, drivers in need will use them. Can you blame them?
>>> I don't blame consumers. This is a government policy blunder and poor 
>>> judgement on charging infrastructure programs.
> 
> 
> I've heard of charging points being out of service for weeks at a time.  
> Ignorant question: why can't an EVSE to run its own diagnostics and phone 
> home over the mobile network for repairs when it needs them?  Or do they 
> already do that, and the operators just ignore them?  
> 
>>> because this was never a good idea. Free fuel cannot be supported.
> 
> I honestly don't know, but I think we need to do something about the 
> frustration of finding a charging point just in time, only to discover it 
> won't work.
> 
> As for access, I still think that this business of access cards and apps for 
> EV charging is rubbish.  You want a gas fillup, you use a credit card or 
> cash.  Why not require all paid EV charging points to accept credit cards?  
> (Bonus points for cash too, though I can see the logistics problems.)  Now 
> there's legislation I'd support.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who 
> can't mind their own business, because they have no business of
> their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. 
> 
> --William Burroughs 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 27 Aug 2020 at 16:35, paul dove via EV wrote:

>>> I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla. 
 
>> Would you really want this?  Would you want GM to build filling 
>> stations too?  

> Yes, most definitely! Filling stations are owned by oil companies
> mostly. If you want the public utilities to install them I am all for
> that. 

I don't understand your response.  I didn't say anything about oil companies 
or utilites.  I asked whether you really thought that GM (and other 
automakers) should build charging points.  

Then Lee Hart pointed out that Henry Ford was rightly dinged for antitrust 
activity when he tried to build filling stations.  

In my opinion, Tesla should have been treated the same way, but these days 
the US justice department mostly waves off concerns about monopoies. 

> Tesla gave the automakers the offer to share in the network cost and
> therefore share the network. They declined!   

They made a business decision.  It wasn't a very smart one, IMO, but that's 
what they did.  

>> Think about it.  Would you want EVs - or ICEVs, for that matter - 
>> to be like inkjet printers?  Look how much OEM ink cartridges 
>>  cost, and how hard the printer makers work to keep you from 
>> using third party or refilled carts.

> not sure the reference here. 

You've never owned an inkjet printer?

> They already have their own proprietary charging standards. 

Who is "they"?  Whoever it is, it seems to me that proprietary 
specifications (I"m not sure agree that proprietary specifications are 
"standards," but I'll let that go) are part of the problem.  

>> If automakers built their own filling stations and/or EV charging points, 
>> how long do you think it would be before they decided to follow 
>> the printer companies' example?  
 
> Not really the issue we are discussing. 

Yes, it is.  It illustrates what's wrong with EV makers owning charging 
networks.

> I was saying that they should pay their own way 

Who should pay their own way?

> and not rely on the government to solve the problem.

What problem?

> If not, then they need to remburse Tesla for their expense 

Who is "they," and what expense?

> otherwise is an unfair government subsidy to get people to buy their
> cars. 

Whose cars?  

If you're talking about purchase incentives, I don't see any of them 
benefitting one manufacturer over another - unless you're sore that Tesla 
has burned through much of their allotment.

If you're talking about financial help for installing charging points, 
again, I don't see any overt brand discrimination.  Maybe there's an 
indirect and unintentional one in the CCS / Chademo feud, but that's the 
automakers' fault for not getting their standards acts together.

> Electricity is regulated by the department of energy. You have to
> follow their rules.   

Of course it is, but I don't see what this has to do with my post.  What are 
you responding to here?

>> Maybe, but if [charging points are] not meant to be used at night, 
>> why aren't they powered down and locked up after hours?  
>> If they're on and available, and on the charging maps, drivers 
>> in need will use them. Can you blame them? 

> I don't blame consumers. This is a government policy blunder and poor
> judgement on charging infrastructure programs. 

What do you propose instead?  Aren't you one of the anarchists here?

I don't accept the bog-standard anarchist notion that goverment should stand 
back on EVs (and just about everything else except police).  EVs are 
succeeding in Europe and Asia because GOVERNMENTS there are promoting them.  
Those governments actually care about the future and look after their 
people.  Imagine that.

Meanwhile, EVs are mostly languishing in the US because our dysfunctional 
federal government doesn't care what our future looks like, as long as big 
money keeps getting richer.

>> I've heard of charging points being out of service for weeks at a 
>> time. Ignorant question: why can't an EVSE to run its own 
>> diagnostics and phone home over the mobile network for repairs 
>> when it needs them?  Or do they already do that, and the 
>> operators just ignore them?  

> because this was never a good idea. Free fuel cannot be supported.

Did I say anything about free fuel?  

Besides, the statement "free fuel cannot be supported" is absurd.  Of course 
free fuel (in the form of EV charging) can be supported: use our taxes for 
it.  

Supporting EV adoption this way is a perfectly valid use of public funds, 
because it's in the public interest to promote cleaner air, reduced carbon 
emissions, and long-term transportation efficiency and sustainability.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Think about how stupid the average person is.  Then realize 
 that half of 

Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[paul dove via EV]

> I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla. 

Would you really want this?  Would you want GM to build filling stations 
too?  

>>Yes, most definitely! Filling stations are owned by oil companies mostly. If 
>>you want the public utilities to install them I am all for that.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting here, and I agree that 
Tesla's charging network has been a success so far for (ahem) Tesla owners 
only, but I think that any automaker building its own charging network would 
be sorely tempted to fall into the rent-seeking that's gotten so common in 
recent years.
>>Tesla gave the automakers the offer to share in the network cost and 
>>therefore share the network. They declined!

Think about it.  Would you want EVs - or ICEVs, for that matter - to be like 
inkjet printers?  Look how much OEM ink cartridges cost, and how hard the 
printer makers work to keep you from using third party or refilled carts.
>>not sure the reference here. They already have their own proprietary charging 
>>standards.
Some manufacturers have even sent the printers ALREADY SOLD AND IN USE new 
firmare, so they'll reject non-factory ink, or at least hassle the owners 
about using it.  If automakers built their own filling stations and/or EV 
charging points, how long do you think it would be before they decided to 
follow the printer companies' example?  

>>Not really the issue we are discussing. I was saying that they should pay 
>>their own way and not rely on the government to solve the problem. If not, 
>>then they need to remburse Tesla for their expense otherwise is an unfair 
>>government subsidy to get people to buy their cars.

I can just see it - "Charge up at a GM station to enable our new turbo 
acceleration feature."

Yeah, Tesla hasn't done anything like that yet.  No reason they couldn't, 
though.  And who knows what they might be like 5, 10, 15 years from now?  
Their finances or their ownership or their stock status could change.  I'd 
be very surprised if they don't have big investors who'd love to see that 
sweet never-ending money stream.  

>>Electricity is regulated by the department of energy. You have to follow 
>>their rules.


> Most of the stations I have seen in university parking or parks are
> meant to be used when you are there not late at night. 

Maybe, but if they're not meant to be used at night, why aren't they powered 
down and locked up after hours?  If they're on and available, and on the 
charging maps, drivers in need will use them. Can you blame them?
>>I don't blame consumers. This is a government policy blunder and poor 
>>judgement on charging infrastructure programs.


I've heard of charging points being out of service for weeks at a time.  
Ignorant question: why can't an EVSE to run its own diagnostics and phone 
home over the mobile network for repairs when it needs them?  Or do they 
already do that, and the operators just ignore them?  

>>because this was never a good idea. Free fuel cannot be supported.

I honestly don't know, but I think we need to do something about the 
frustration of finding a charging point just in time, only to discover it 
won't work.

As for access, I still think that this business of access cards and apps for 
EV charging is rubbish.  You want a gas fillup, you use a credit card or 
cash.  Why not require all paid EV charging points to accept credit cards?  
(Bonus points for cash too, though I can see the logistics problems.)  Now 
there's legislation I'd support.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who 
    can't mind their own business, because they have no business of 
    their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. 

                                                --William Burroughs 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

I don't understand the problem, at least two opportunities for 
entertainment and retail purchases while you charge. If I'd had 
nearby services like these this morning, I would have stuck around 
the electric utility's free EVSE for a full charge instead of bugging 
out at 2/3 ;)


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Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla.


Would you really want this?  Would you want GM to build filling stations
too?

Think about it.  Would you want EVs - or ICEVs, for that matter - to be like
inkjet printers?  Look how much OEM ink cartridges cost, and how hard the
printer makers work to keep you from using third party or refilled carts.


Henry Ford was famous for buying up companies that made parts to build 
his cars. When he started buying up gas stations, the federal government 
prosecuted him for anti-trust. They said, "If you monopolize the gas 
stations, you'll overcharge people." Ford replied, "If I owned the 
filling stations, I'd *give* away the cars."


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

> I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla. 

Would you really want this?  Would you want GM to build filling stations 
too?  

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting here, and I agree that 
Tesla's charging network has been a success so far for (ahem) Tesla owners 
only, but I think that any automaker building its own charging network would 
be sorely tempted to fall into the rent-seeking that's gotten so common in 
recent years.

Think about it.  Would you want EVs - or ICEVs, for that matter - to be like 
inkjet printers?  Look how much OEM ink cartridges cost, and how hard the 
printer makers work to keep you from using third party or refilled carts.

Some manufacturers have even sent the printers ALREADY SOLD AND IN USE new 
firmare, so they'll reject non-factory ink, or at least hassle the owners 
about using it.  If automakers built their own filling stations and/or EV 
charging points, how long do you think it would be before they decided to 
follow the printer companies' example?  

I can just see it - "Charge up at a GM station to enable our new turbo 
acceleration feature."

Yeah, Tesla hasn't done anything like that yet.  No reason they couldn't, 
though.  And who knows what they might be like 5, 10, 15 years from now?  
Their finances or their ownership or their stock status could change.  I'd 
be very surprised if they don't have big investors who'd love to see that 
sweet never-ending money stream.  

The printer makers could break third party ink compatibility on printers 
already in cutomers' hands because of their automatic updates.  Teslas are 
at least as vulnerable with their OTA updates.  Imagine waking up some 
morning and discovering that your Tesla refuses to charge at the CCS or 
Chademo terminal you pass on your way to Grandma's, so you have to go out of 
your way to use a Supercharger.

It would upset a lot of Tesla owners and would-be owners, and probably would 
hurt their sales.  But that hasn't stopped other big-bucks shareowners from 
pushing through similarly stupid and disastrous schemes.

You might think that it couldn't happen, but the folks who bought those 
inkjet printers didn't think their printers would get half-borked right in 
their homes, either.  

If we're going to pass laws about this, I say let's go the other way - make 
Tesla spin off its charging network, and make it available to ALL EVs. Or be 
nice and give them incentives to do it - tax breaks, maybe.  

> Most of the stations I have seen in university parking or parks are
> meant to be used when you are there not late at night. 

Maybe, but if they're not meant to be used at night, why aren't they powered 
down and locked up after hours?  If they're on and available, and on the 
charging maps, drivers in need will use them. Can you blame them?

I think Moate makes a good point.  I've never seen a filling station open at 
2am with all its lights off, have you?  So why aren't open late-night 
charging points lit up too?

Without wanting to in any way diminish Moate's concerns about women's 
safety, it's not just women who'd benefit.  Nobody should have to plug in 
(or fuel up) in the dark.  Lit-up charging points aren't just safer, they're 
easier to use.  Better lighting would probably also cut down on EV 
vandalism.

The other side of this coin is that a single or dual EVSE in a parking lot 
is different from a filling station with 6 or more pumps and an 
inconvenience store.  I can see how that same scale of lighting would be 
tough economically, but I still don't think it should cost that much more to 
add a few LED lights and put it in the most exposed location possible.

I also agree that we need to get a handle on the technical and access 
problems.  

I've heard of charging points being out of service for weeks at a time.  
Ignorant question: why can't an EVSE to run its own diagnostics and phone 
home over the mobile network for repairs when it needs them?  Or do they 
already do that, and the operators just ignore them?  

I honestly don't know, but I think we need to do something about the 
frustration of finding a charging point just in time, only to discover it 
won't work.

As for access, I still think that this business of access cards and apps for 
EV charging is rubbish.  You want a gas fillup, you use a credit card or 
cash.  Why not require all paid EV charging points to accept credit cards?  
(Bonus points for cash too, though I can see the logistics problems.)  Now 
there's legislation I'd support.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who 
 can't mind their own business, because they have no business of 
 their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. 

  

Re: [EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[paul dove via EV]

I say make the car companies put in charging like Tesla. Relying on the 
government is wrong to begin with. Most of the stations I have seen in 
university parking or parks are meant to be used when you are there not late at 
night.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:31 PM, evln via EV  wrote:



https://www.driving.co.uk/news/tv-presenter-maddie-moate-highlights-scary-electric-car-charging-locations/
TV presenter Maddie Moate highlights 'scary' electric car charging locations
24 August 2020 ... 'I'm fed up of charging in pitch black car parks when I'm
by myself' ... the issue of EV charging points in “intimidating” locations,
urging suppliers to ... poorly-lit charging points in dangerous locations
“tucked away in car parks, behind pubs, at business centres” force women to
compromise their safety in order to avoid running out of charge, adding that
calling suppliers to resolve technical problems increases risk ...
https://twitter.com/amdmad70/status/1297259044135149568


+ (Xpeng IPO Seeks $Billion)
https://www.investors.com/news/xpeng-motors-electric-car-ipo-seeks-more-than-1-billion/
Electric Car Startup Xpeng Motors Seeks More Than $1 Billion In IPO
08/21/2020  Xpeng Motors plans to raise more than $1 billion in an upcoming
IPO, in line with offerings from China EV peers Nio (NIO) and Li Auto (LI),
as electric car stocks ...
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Xpeng
 ... Xpeng Shamelessly rips-off Tesla ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] Intimidating public EVSE> crack den on left, cat house on right

[evln via EV]

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/tv-presenter-maddie-moate-highlights-scary-electric-car-charging-locations/
TV presenter Maddie Moate highlights 'scary' electric car charging locations
24 August 2020 ... 'I'm fed up of charging in pitch black car parks when I'm
by myself' ... the issue of EV charging points in “intimidating” locations,
urging suppliers to ... poorly-lit charging points in dangerous locations
“tucked away in car parks, behind pubs, at business centres” force women to
compromise their safety in order to avoid running out of charge, adding that
calling suppliers to resolve technical problems increases risk ...
https://twitter.com/amdmad70/status/1297259044135149568


+ (Xpeng IPO Seeks $Billion)
https://www.investors.com/news/xpeng-motors-electric-car-ipo-seeks-more-than-1-billion/
Electric Car Startup Xpeng Motors Seeks More Than $1 Billion In IPO
08/21/2020  Xpeng Motors plans to raise more than $1 billion in an upcoming
IPO, in line with offerings from China EV peers Nio (NIO) and Li Auto (LI),
as electric car stocks ...
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Xpeng
 ... Xpeng Shamelessly rips-off Tesla ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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