Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
I don't think this is the case. Nuclear plants which in North America we have plenty need to put out a base amount but they can also be used very effectively for peak power needs. It will be a very long time before there is so much solar ( which produces during peak) that we put the nuclear facilities in North America out of business. They will continue to produce the base requirements at night. My hope is that there will soon be no need for fossil fuel plants. I don't know how it is in the u.s. but in canada we are currently being sold a bill of goods with turbines. (Someone's getting rich and it's not the rate payers or the land owners) at any rate wind adds well to the shoulder times as they at least here seem to generate early morning and late night most consistently. Nick Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. Original message From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 2016-08-13 12:37 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots Robert, You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling. The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. If residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they are relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means the utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if it gets used regularly or hardly at all. Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be a lot higher than they currently are. That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the utility's need to build out. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots >The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair >good >deal at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil >fuel >industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar. > >I just had an emiphany... > >We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities >since >they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in >fat, >they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak >demand. And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland. All >customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY >EVERYONE >$1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR >DAYS. >This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days... > >So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry >that >solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the >profits and taking them straight to the bank. > >But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities >for >their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their >storage >system. So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil >fuel >industry truing to burn every last drop. > >HERE IS MY EPIPHANY: > >In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING >plants >that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK >solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from >solar still at the net rate of ten cents. No wonder they feel >threatened. >Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty >fossil >fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty >peakers. And that is exactly as it should be. We need them and their >dirty power off the grid. The sooner the better. > >Sure we need peaking plants, But we do not need to cry over them when >solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of >their >dirty costs. So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, >it >is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other >rate >payers" to divide and conquer us. > >Bob Bruninga, WB4APR >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm> >
Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
On 08/13/2016 12:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: The grid will actually need less spinning reserves with solar than they have now. When we think solar is "variable" then we are ignoring the fact that when a coal or nuke or gas plant drops off line due to any number of *routine* causes, the drop on the grid woiuld be catastrophic. Hence, the grid already maintains spinning reserves at least equal to their biggest single plant at any time. Solar *never* goes down like that. Solar is quite predictable and on partly cloudy days the clouds are not everywhere at once. So the spinning reserve argument does not hold water when you compare the backup needed for a centralized plant compared to distributed solar. Its just obfuscation. An interesting situation developed in Texas a few years ago. There was legislative stimulus to build wind and a very large industry developed in west Texas. At the time it was building out, the "grid", ERCOT, estimated it could accommodate no more than about 5% wind energy due to the unpredictability. Since, the peak wind has, at times, been around 15%. Accommodating that relatively large fraction seems to be due to high quality forecasts. I believe they need something like an hour to bring natural gas generation up to speed to fill a shortage. The infrastructure to get the power from west Texas to the consuming areas in the central and eastern areas of the state was built out. It turns out, the wind produces mostly in the evenings and nights and the transmission infrastructure is largely unused mid-day. Now, there is developing a large west Texas solar industry which already has the transmission infrastructure in place. Oops! My 15% number is a year old: http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ercot-wind-energy-provided-record-45-of-electricity-on-dec-20/412241/ Also interesting reading: http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ercot-wind-solar-nearly-two-thirds-new-capacity-in-2016/415715/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
The grid will actually need less spinning reserves with solar than they have now. When we think solar is "variable" then we are ignoring the fact that when a coal or nuke or gas plant drops off line due to any number of *routine* causes, the drop on the grid woiuld be catastrophic. Hence, the grid already maintains spinning reserves at least equal to their biggest single plant at any time. Solar *never* goes down like that. Solar is quite predictable and on partly cloudy days the clouds are not everywhere at once. So the spinning reserve argument does not hold water when you compare the backup needed for a centralized plant compared to distributed solar. Its just obfuscation. Bob On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com> wrote: > Robert, > > You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power > companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling. > > The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. If > residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they are > relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means the > utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if it > gets used regularly or hardly at all. > > Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can > recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if > they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just > during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be a > lot higher than they currently are. > > That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It > would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the utility's > need to build out. > > Peri > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM > Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots > > The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good >> deal at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel >> industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar. >> >> I just had an emiphany... >> >> We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since >> they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat, >> they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak >> demand. And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland. All >> customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE >> $1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS. >> This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days... >> >> So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that >> solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the >> profits and taking them straight to the bank. >> >> But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for >> their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their >> storage >> system. So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel >> industry truing to burn every last drop. >> >> HERE IS MY EPIPHANY: >> >> In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants >> that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK >> solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from >> solar still at the net rate of ten cents. No wonder they feel threatened. >> Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil >> fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty >> peakers. And that is exactly as it should be. We need them and their >> dirty power off the grid. The sooner the better. >> >> Sure we need peaking plants, But we do not need to cry over them when >> solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of >> their >> dirty costs. So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it >> is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate >> payers" to divide and conquer us. >> >> Bob Bruninga, WB4APR >> -- next part -- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/ >> 20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm> >> ___ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help
Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
Bob, you may be interested in this study of batteriesThe Economics of Battery Energy Storage | | | | || | | | | | The Economics of Battery Energy Storage Much attention has been paid to batteries' impressive cost declines. But a new RMI report shifts the focus t... | | | | From: Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 12:26 PM Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good deal at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar. I just had an emiphany... We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat, they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak demand. And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland. All customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE $1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS. This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days... So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the profits and taking them straight to the bank. But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their storage system. So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel industry truing to burn every last drop. HERE IS MY EPIPHANY: In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from solar still at the net rate of ten cents. No wonder they feel threatened. Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty peakers. And that is exactly as it should be. We need them and their dirty power off the grid. The sooner the better. Sure we need peaking plants, But we do not need to cry over them when solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of their dirty costs. So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate payers" to divide and conquer us. Bob Bruninga, WB4APR -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160813/8252fa97/attachment-0001.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
Robert, You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling. The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. If residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they are relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means the utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if it gets used regularly or hardly at all. Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be a lot higher than they currently are. That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the utility's need to build out. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good deal at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar. I just had an emiphany... We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat, they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak demand. And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland. All customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE $1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS. This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days... So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the profits and taking them straight to the bank. But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their storage system. So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel industry truing to burn every last drop. HERE IS MY EPIPHANY: In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from solar still at the net rate of ten cents. No wonder they feel threatened. Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty peakers. And that is exactly as it should be. We need them and their dirty power off the grid. The sooner the better. Sure we need peaking plants, But we do not need to cry over them when solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of their dirty costs. So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate payers" to divide and conquer us. Bob Bruninga, WB4APR -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
