Re: [EVDL] Success!
http://vtb.engr.sc.edu/vtbwebsite/downloads/publications/capacityfade_JPSPaper2.pdf Here is one study on the effects of different voltage cutoff points using CC-CV charging. I believe this was well before DIYers were using them. From: David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Actually, those procedures were developed by customer feedback mostly! As some of us started reducing the ending voltage so did the spec sheets of TS, CALB, et al. Do you have references for those procedures being developed prior to 5 years ago? I haven't been able to find them. Maybe it was just the Chinese manufacturers who did that but then they were some of the only ones who would sell us DIY people batteries. On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net wrote: Sorry about that my dog hit my arm and hit send by accident. Sure one can develop their own procedure however, these procedures were developed in a laboratory and the batteries dissected afterwards to see the effect. My point was anything over 3.38 V is charging the cell Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 7:16 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150605/20f5d1b9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
/This testing is not much value when trying to compare cells ability to last a long time./ That wasn't the point. He was just showing that the CC/CV transition voltage in the manufacturer charging spec is for the charging current in the spec, and you can go higher without causing immediate damage (swelling) to the cell when charging at higher current as long as you don't go to high enough voltage to break down the electrolyte. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4676040.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
At room temperature the cells may be fine at high SOC. Since so much traditional cycle testing is done at room temps, they never spend much time at the condition that actually causes problems. This testing is not much value when trying to compare cells ability to last a long time. Mike On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:54 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The spec for CALB cells is CC to 3.6V per cell then CV to C/20. When I do a full charge I charge my 180 Ah CALB SE cells at CC to 3.53V per cell average, or about 127V pack voltage, then the charger holds a pack V of about 126V to C/20, or 9A, and terminates. After several hours at rest the pack V is 120.4V to 120.5V, or about 3.34V - 3.35V per cell. Been charging that way for over 1 1/2 years and the voltage is always in that range. The SoC of the pack at 3.6V per cell is of course a function of charge current due to voltage drops across cell internal resistance. Jack R. demonstrated a few years ago that if you charge at 1C you can exceed the 3.6V spec somewhat (think he went to around 4.1V), not do immediate damage to the cell (no info about long term effect on his test cell), and rest voltage will be quite a bit lower than if you charged to 3.6V per cell at say 40A. Of course if cells are driven too high in voltage the electrolyte solvent starts to break down regardless of SoC of the cell. Whitacre said this occurs at 4.3 to 4.4V per cell, but I would guess it depends on cell chemistry, additives, solvents used...so who knows for a specific cell manufacturer. I think that is why charge time on DC fast chargers is spec'ed to 80% SoC. They likely charge to similar V per cell as when charging at lower currents, which at that current level gets you to around 80% SoC, then start the CV phase. David N. pointed out the opposite issue years ago - charging at very low current to the 3.6V (or whatever for given cell type) spec. The cell voltage will be lower at a given SoC at low charge current so you may overcharge the cell by say charging at 0.5A to the 3.6V spec. I don't know if anyone ever actually demonstrated damage. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4676021.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150604/5a4a7714/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
The spec for CALB cells is CC to 3.6V per cell then CV to C/20. When I do a full charge I charge my 180 Ah CALB SE cells at CC to 3.53V per cell average, or about 127V pack voltage, then the charger holds a pack V of about 126V to C/20, or 9A, and terminates. After several hours at rest the pack V is 120.4V to 120.5V, or about 3.34V - 3.35V per cell. Been charging that way for over 1 1/2 years and the voltage is always in that range. The SoC of the pack at 3.6V per cell is of course a function of charge current due to voltage drops across cell internal resistance. Jack R. demonstrated a few years ago that if you charge at 1C you can exceed the 3.6V spec somewhat (think he went to around 4.1V), not do immediate damage to the cell (no info about long term effect on his test cell), and rest voltage will be quite a bit lower than if you charged to 3.6V per cell at say 40A. Of course if cells are driven too high in voltage the electrolyte solvent starts to break down regardless of SoC of the cell. Whitacre said this occurs at 4.3 to 4.4V per cell, but I would guess it depends on cell chemistry, additives, solvents used...so who knows for a specific cell manufacturer. I think that is why charge time on DC fast chargers is spec'ed to 80% SoC. They likely charge to similar V per cell as when charging at lower currents, which at that current level gets you to around 80% SoC, then start the CV phase. David N. pointed out the opposite issue years ago - charging at very low current to the 3.6V (or whatever for given cell type) spec. The cell voltage will be lower at a given SoC at low charge current so you may overcharge the cell by say charging at 0.5A to the 3.6V spec. I don't know if anyone ever actually demonstrated damage. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4676021.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Sorry about that my dog hit my arm and hit send by accident. Sure one can develop their own procedure however, these procedures were developed in a laboratory and the batteries dissected afterwards to see the effect. My point was anything over 3.38 V is charging the cell Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 7:16 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far it has not. Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf, but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't think you need be too concerned. On the hottest days I sometimes park the car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage. Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under aluminum sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes. Keeps them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is plugged in in the garage and above 50F if left parked outside for 4 - 5 hours. -- View this message in context:
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far it has not. Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf, but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't think you need be too concerned. On the hottest days I sometimes park the car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage. Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under aluminum sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes. Keeps them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Paul, What is the reasoning there? *IF the cut off voltage is not exceeded* (and it is low enough) then there should be no problem with very low current charging. However, to many people trickle charge means an unmanaged charge that continues beyond a cut off point. You will definitely ruin Li ion cells if you never stop the low current charging. Lead acid cells, which always lose some charge, are not damaged at all by overcharging that does not heat them, and for which losing all charge is bad, are a good candidate for trickle charging. I suspect this is all stuff you know, but I wanted to get this in the thread for posterity. On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net wrote: Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. If time to charge were not an issue just charge to 3.38V and shut off whenever you feel like it. I haven't had time to collect data on the relationship to target voltage and cutoff current but I suspect it is not linear. Since my Zivan charger doesn't have the ability to terminate based on charge current I have it set to 3.445V/cell. It times out at any where between about 45 and 60 minutes after reaching the yellow phase of charging. Through no-load tests this time of trickle charging is not overcharging the batteries. All cells rest at below 3.38V after 8 hours or so which supports what Michael R. said above. -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Nissan refers to their included Level 1 EVSE as a trickle charger. Charging is still completely under control of the car's BMS. I'm not sure why Nissan says it's not for routine use, but it doesn't hurt the car. I suspect they're more concerned with connector durability or encouraging people to buy a level 2 from them. Bill -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150603/6b55ec88/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Sometime later The cell voltage will drop to 3.38 V. If one leaves The charger to trickle at 3.65 you will be charging the cell above its limits at a very slow rate and eventually shorted out. One would have to trickle charge below 3.38 to keep from harming the cell. However, this is not necessary since lithium ion batteries do not self discharge unless you have a parasitic system such as a computer or clocks and what not in the car that drain the main battery pack. In most vehicles the main pack disconnects and this is not an issue. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: Paul, What is the reasoning there? IF the cut off voltage is not exceeded (and it is low enough) then there should be no problem with very low current charging. However, to many people trickle charge means an unmanaged charge that continues beyond a cut off point. You will definitely ruin Li ion cells if you never stop the low current charging. Lead acid cells, which always lose some charge, are not damaged at all by overcharging that does not heat them, and for which losing all charge is bad, are a good candidate for trickle charging. I suspect this is all stuff you know, but I wanted to get this in the thread for posterity. On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net wrote: Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Lee, your point is very well taken. Tesla has a fusible link on every one of their 7000 cells, for example. I suspect they have all manner of software and hardware protection beyond that. They have billions on the line. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cor van de Water via EV wrote: I don't charge my car in the living room, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Our ICEs all have tens of gallons of highly flammable gasoline in them. This sits in a wooden garage, often attached to a home, with little more than a sheet of drywall between them. Yes, there are house fires caused by a car in the garage catching fire. They are rare, thanks to considerable effort on the part of the automakers to prevent that gasoline from accidentally catching fire. Presumably, EV manufacturers also consider the consequences of some design error or component failure starting a fire in their lithium battery pack. They then include safety precautions to make this impossible, or at least extremely unlikely. (If they don't, they're leaving themselves wide open for a lawsuit if anything goes wrong!) I think the risk comes from hobby DIY types that either don't know the risk, or choose not to do anything about it. There are bound to be idiots that store gasoline in an open-topped bucket in the garage, and somehow haven't blown themselves up. Or that didn't bother to install circuit breakers in their electrical wiring, and haven't set the wiring on fire yet. (What could possibly go wrong?) The same type of idiot could also wire up a bunch of lithium cells, and use a dumb charger on them. It would work fine, until the day that something goes wrong. Then he'd have a lovely roaring fire. This doesn't mean you shouldn't charge lithium batteries inside. It just means that if you do, you'd better know what you're doing, and do it RIGHT! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150602/064ac2ed/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
...when your *bicycle* does the standing-start quarter mile in 11.5 sec finishing at 110 MPH then you have a good mental picture of what Tom quoted... Not many freeway capable 4-wheel electric vehicles can compete with this bicycle Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of tomw via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:21 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Yes, I am familiar with some of those guys from endless sphere, but they are young males. You remember what that was like right? Completely invulnerable, more testosterone than brains, get a good laugh out of almost burning the house down...besides they likely all rent and they are using small packs so no big loss. They are also using high specific power lipo (lithium polymer) cells which are much more fire prone than LiFePO4. live for physics some time back gave good golden rules for using lipo cells: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14t=9170start=0#p142304 Several people over on diyelectriccar deliberately severely overcharged LiFePO4 cells and posted video showing them smoking but not catching fire. Quite a few people use a version of Lee's batt bridge to watch for pack imbalance, and charge LiFePO4 cells to 3.45V or lower with no bms. David N. who sometimes posts here has been doing that without problems for a few years. That method is popular with the bottom balancers, who are concerned they will someday run their pack down to zero SoC and want to prevent reversing a cell or cells so balance them all to the same voltage near the discharge end of the curve, say 2.5V, and charge their lowest capacity cell to 3.45V or lower. A number of methods work, some just require more diligence and discipline than others. I think it is easy to become complacent after years of no problems, then as the pack ages there is the possibility that some cells start developing high internal resistance or loose some capacity resulting in eventually overcharging one. That's why I'd rather have a bms with HVC and LVC, and of course almost everyone uses a charge counter so they know the SoC of the pack. Mine is set to repeatedly flash LOW CHARGE at 35% SoC. Most people make a mistake when they are just getting started with charging cells and are still figuring out how it all works, what to check, and how fast voltage changes on the exponential parts of the curve, during charging and discharging. That is why for years people have been saying stay away from the ends of the charge/discharge curve. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675967.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Yes, I am familiar with some of those guys from endless sphere, but they are young males. You remember what that was like right? Completely invulnerable, more testosterone than brains, get a good laugh out of almost burning the house down...besides they likely all rent and they are using small packs so no big loss. They are also using high specific power lipo (lithium polymer) cells which are much more fire prone than LiFePO4. live for physics some time back gave good golden rules for using lipo cells: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14t=9170start=0#p142304 Several people over on diyelectriccar deliberately severely overcharged LiFePO4 cells and posted video showing them smoking but not catching fire. Quite a few people use a version of Lee's batt bridge to watch for pack imbalance, and charge LiFePO4 cells to 3.45V or lower with no bms. David N. who sometimes posts here has been doing that without problems for a few years. That method is popular with the bottom balancers, who are concerned they will someday run their pack down to zero SoC and want to prevent reversing a cell or cells so balance them all to the same voltage near the discharge end of the curve, say 2.5V, and charge their lowest capacity cell to 3.45V or lower. A number of methods work, some just require more diligence and discipline than others. I think it is easy to become complacent after years of no problems, then as the pack ages there is the possibility that some cells start developing high internal resistance or loose some capacity resulting in eventually overcharging one. That's why I'd rather have a bms with HVC and LVC, and of course almost everyone uses a charge counter so they know the SoC of the pack. Mine is set to repeatedly flash LOW CHARGE at 35% SoC. Most people make a mistake when they are just getting started with charging cells and are still figuring out how it all works, what to check, and how fast voltage changes on the exponential parts of the curve, during charging and discharging. That is why for years people have been saying stay away from the ends of the charge/discharge curve. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675967.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far it has not. Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf, but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't think you need be too concerned. On the hottest days I sometimes park the car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage. Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under aluminum sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes. Keeps them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is plugged in in the garage and above 50F if left parked outside for 4 - 5 hours. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675945.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/5cb534fb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Michael, Exactly the problem: the average cell charging voltage was 3.75V but without BMS you had no clue how high each individual cell was getting. Due to the behavior of LFP to quickly run up in voltage once the cell is full, the one cell that was the highest in the pack (a slightly lower self-discharge will do this - remember the earlier quoted available cell capacity above 3.45V of less than 2Ah which is only 1% of capacity? So, with one only 1% higher cell, its charging voltage can easily have run up to 4+ Volts. Lithium really needs per-cell monitoring and charge shutoff or you run an unknown risk... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:27 PM To: tomw; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! No one I know of charges fully. The eBike and light EV crowd are not so fortunate. (The area I am most concerned with.) They typically buy no name packs with, BMS of unknown function and provenance, and chargers with all the stickers removed and unknown internal tweaks. My first off the reservation pack, would probably have been a nice unit were it not for the charger which poured it on a 60V for 16 cell series of LFPs. I couldn't tell you what exactly it did, but I would plug it in with the vehicle sitting in the hot sun and let it charge until finally I thought about it. Potentially running the average cell voltage to 3.75V. Admittedly, with the charger removed the resting voltage was, 56V == 3.5 / cell. I have to think that the charger running at 60V was bad just the same, creating the conditions for activation of the electrolyte damage. Net result, pack did not last very long. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:46 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-t p4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/a728353c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev
Re: [EVDL] Success!
No one I know of charges fully. The eBike and light EV crowd are not so fortunate. (The area I am most concerned with.) They typically buy no name packs with, BMS of unknown function and provenance, and chargers with all the stickers removed and unknown internal tweaks. My first off the reservation pack, would probably have been a nice unit were it not for the charger which poured it on a 60V for 16 cell series of LFPs. I couldn't tell you what exactly it did, but I would plug it in with the vehicle sitting in the hot sun and let it charge until finally I thought about it. Potentially running the average cell voltage to 3.75V. Admittedly, with the charger removed the resting voltage was, 56V == 3.5 / cell. I have to think that the charger running at 60V was bad just the same, creating the conditions for activation of the electrolyte damage. Net result, pack did not last very long. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:46 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/a728353c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Cell phones always have a single cell as battery and work off of the ~ 3.7V directly via DC/DC buck converters and charges off of a 5V USB connection. I can't vouch for the Mi-fi. More problematic would be the now common application of Li batteries in tools such as drills and saws, in cordless personal care products; in most internet connected devices (not only my laptops have a Li cell, but also any *-pads, kindle and the sorts. Even my internet modem has a backup battery! I don't charge my car in the livingroom, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Cor van de Water via EV wrote: I don't charge my car in the living room, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Our ICEs all have tens of gallons of highly flammable gasoline in them. This sits in a wooden garage, often attached to a home, with little more than a sheet of drywall between them. Yes, there are house fires caused by a car in the garage catching fire. They are rare, thanks to considerable effort on the part of the automakers to prevent that gasoline from accidentally catching fire. Presumably, EV manufacturers also consider the consequences of some design error or component failure starting a fire in their lithium battery pack. They then include safety precautions to make this impossible, or at least extremely unlikely. (If they don't, they're leaving themselves wide open for a lawsuit if anything goes wrong!) I think the risk comes from hobby DIY types that either don't know the risk, or choose not to do anything about it. There are bound to be idiots that store gasoline in an open-topped bucket in the garage, and somehow haven't blown themselves up. Or that didn't bother to install circuit breakers in their electrical wiring, and haven't set the wiring on fire yet. (What could possibly go wrong?) The same type of idiot could also wire up a bunch of lithium cells, and use a dumb charger on them. It would work fine, until the day that something goes wrong. Then he'd have a lovely roaring fire. This doesn't mean you shouldn't charge lithium batteries inside. It just means that if you do, you'd better know what you're doing, and do it RIGHT! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
I wasn't speaking of smaller cells like phones. I guess the PC have been sorted out. I was thinking specifically of EV packs that are home built or otherwise DIY'd. If there is a malfunction you may burn it down. I am sure some other folks will chime in. I am looking at the book Battery Management Systems by Davide Andrea who makes a strong point about this. There is a cart full of LFP melted down on a cart just outside his lab exit in an early chapter. I won't do it. Good luck to you. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/e03a5ac2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
When I first started reading this list a grief stricken person told a tale of sprrow having burned his home down, killing his dog within. I was at that time charging my 48V - 10Ah and 20Ah packs in the bedroom. More than enough to make cinders of a nice place to live. I am happy not to do that anymore. My garage is not attached to the house. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 11:04 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cell phones always have a single cell as battery and work off of the ~ 3.7V directly via DC/DC buck converters and charges off of a 5V USB connection. I can't vouch for the Mi-fi. More problematic would be the now common application of Li batteries in tools such as drills and saws, in cordless personal care products; in most internet connected devices (not only my laptops have a Li cell, but also any *-pads, kindle and the sorts. Even my internet modem has a backup battery! I don't charge my car in the livingroom, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/db13ec66/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Success!
So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255be410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the battery even more. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so, keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255be410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/31/2015 10:33 PM, Ben Goren wrote: On May 31, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The 2013 battery modules do have more air holes in them for passive thermal heating than the 2011/2012 modules. That sparks another interesting thought...would there be any particularly good place to position a box fan to maximize the effect of passive cooling? Not really, because the modules are inside the big steel battery box, and the battery box does not have any are holes. (it has a few pressure equalization vents, but air shouldn't be flowing very fast through them...) I guess if you put a box fan directly under the car blowing up onto the battery box (after removing the plastic under battery box plastic aero panels) it could help, or if you found a hole to blow air in between the aero panels and the battery boxbut proably not at all worth the time/effort. Sounds like a sound plan regardless of whatever other steps they take to keep the batteries cool. Is there any benefit to charging to even less than 80%? I don't belive so. My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the safe range. Anything below 20% or above 80% may lower the battery lifetime. Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlVrcvwACgkQSWJjSgPNbM/y1ACfeBZlXaxj1Vp/QreFFnUYfnAp prsAn3n0LCyMhuFytjx+y/KwRBmRczhE =C91L -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On May 31, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Charles Galpin cgal...@lhsw.com wrote: Ben, do you mind sharing how much they paid? Leaf’s are getting pretty cheap here too. There is a 2012 SV with 15k miles for $11k locally which is calling my name. The charge on my credit card -- including all taxes and registration and what-not -- was a few pennies over $13K, right at the top end of what they had budgeted. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/4e231947/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote: but proably not at all worth the time/effort. Ah, well. 'Twas a thought My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the safe range. Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program the car to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few degrees of the coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise. They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas anybody might have! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/b2a8f91d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so, keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255be410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Yes, it'll be plugged in...and that's the heart of the question. If the batteries are inside the vehicle and the A/C cools the vehicle interior including the batteries at the expense of heating the rest of the garage, I'd think that'd be a net gain...but I obviously don't know, which is why the question. There's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall of the garage. Insulation is less than ideal but much more than when the house was manufactured, and about as good as it's going to get. Ventilation can easily be achieved by opening doors. And they don't need more than a 50-mile range, which is why the i-MiEV was on the short list as well. In practice, they basically never put more than 40 miles on a car in a given day. If some sort of emergency should arise that they needed to, they'll still have the 1955 VW Bug. For less urgent extended in-town trips -- like a garden tour 40 miles away on the other side of town -- I'll have both my 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile and, very soon now, 1964 1/2 Mustang, as I'd likely already have been the one playing chauffeur in their now-dying 1989 Lincoln Town Car. Vacation road trips they don't do often and rent a car when they do -- as they just did a couple weeks ago in California. So, if Mitsubishi warranties the car for 70% by 2018, it should still have 50 miles by the mid 2020s...by which time, if they're still driving far enough to need more range than that, the replacement cost of a battery should only be a couple grand at most -- the cost of a couple dozen tanks of gasoline. b On May 31, 2015, at 12:59 PM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Possibly, it may use more than the charger supplies but I see you point. Still don't believe the effect will be a cooler battery. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com wrote: Paul, I'm pretty sure that while in the garage the EV would be plugged=20 in, thus drawing line current, not battery. -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:24:39 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also=20 causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the=20 battery even more. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org= =20 wrote: My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make=20 things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps=20 right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be=20 cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I=20 don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so,= =20 keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a=20 bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping=20 the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the=20 space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from=20 getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on=20 the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost=20 money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California=20 vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from=20 the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed=20 some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the= =20 garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to=20 today's forecasted high of 108=C2=B0F inside the garage, but it'll=20 definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air=20 conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that=20 actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL:=20 http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255b= e410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
Re: [EVDL] Success!
In Arizona, an evaporative cooler is very effective most of the year and is ideal for a garage. Even on the hottest days, 95F air out of the swamp cooler is better than nothing, and you'd still get much cooler air at night. Or, run the window a/c instead on the hottest/humid days. http://www.azcentral.com/weather/articles/evap.html On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote: but proably not at all worth the time/effort. Ah, well. 'Twas a thought My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the safe range. Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program the car to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few degrees of the coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise. They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas anybody might have! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/b2a8f91d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/fa92c565/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Paul, I'm pretty sure that while in the garage the EV would be plugged in, thus drawing line current, not battery. -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:24:39 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the battery even more. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so, keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255be410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Possibly, it may use more than the charger supplies but I see you point. Still don't believe the effect will be a cooler battery. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com wrote: Paul, I'm pretty sure that while in the garage the EV would be plugged=20 in, thus drawing line current, not battery. -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:24:39 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also=20 causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the=20 battery even more. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org= =20 wrote: My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make=20 things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps=20 right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be=20 cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I=20 don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so,= =20 keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a=20 bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping=20 the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the=20 space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from=20 getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on=20 the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost=20 money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California=20 vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from=20 the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed=20 some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the= =20 garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to=20 today's forecasted high of 108=C2=B0F inside the garage, but it'll=20 definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air=20 conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that=20 actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL:=20 http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255b= e410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On May 31, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The 2013 battery modules do have more air holes in them for passive thermal heating than the 2011/2012 modules. That sparks another interesting thought...would there be any particularly good place to position a box fan to maximize the effect of passive cooling? My advice is to set the leaf to only charge to a maximum 80 %, and set the timer such that it starts charging in the middle of the night (3am? 5am?) whenever your outdoor temp is the lowest. (Potentially stopping just before you plan to leave in the morning, if they have a set schedule, so that it doesn't stay at 80% longer than it needs to.) Sounds like a sound plan regardless of whatever other steps they take to keep the batteries cool. Is there any benefit to charging to even less than 80%? They know their schedule enough in advance to know when they're going to need to make a longer trip somewhere -- with the maximum typically being 35 - 40 miles on the odometer. I imagine they could be quite happy with keeping it typically at 50% charge if that'd be better for the car. And would the car allow them to automatically program that sort of thing? Or should they set a timer to go out and unplug it? As for time of day...especially if the car can automatically start charging at a given time, yes, that's very feasible. They're up early, and could easily step in the garage to unplug the car on the way to pick the newspaper up off the driveway. Thanks for the advice, everybody! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/709c50c8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Congrats on the new LEAF. There were some significant improvements in the 2013 model year (search the EVDL for comments on LEAF version 1.5). There were changes to instrumentation, battery chemistry, regen, and other features that early adopters of 2011/12 versions had been requesting. You can also search for comments about the LEAF's battery warranty. The LEAF's traction batteries are passively air cooled. It takes a while to change the temp of the batteries. There's a battery temp indicator on the left side of the dash (the bars opposite the charge bars). Your parents can keep an eye on that. I would suspect that running the LEAF's AC inside the garage would be unlikely to cool the batteries, and might actually do the opposite since the garage air would be getting warmer. The batteries are not inside the LEAF's passenger area and AFAIK aren't cooled by the LEAF's AC. If the LEAF's dash starts showing hotter battery temps, here are some ideas: Park the car in the shade. Keep the garage ventilated if it gets hotter than the outside air temp. Use the timer to charge at night when it's cooler. Generally set it to charge to 80% unless they need more on a particular day. Most importantly, enjoy the new electric ride! Here's a useful place to ask further LEAF questions or read answers to questions others have asked: www.myNissanLeaf.com Cheers, -Jamie On 5/31/15 1:03 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255be410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FWIWI believe that the thermal control on the 2013 batteries is a set of heaters that can be turned on, and does not include any active cooling. You can see what I think are the heater elements in the upper right of this image: http://www.summet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/bms_busbars_complete1-1024x768.jpg The 2013 battery modules do have more air holes in them for passive thermal heating than the 2011/2012 modules. My advice is to set the leaf to only charge to a maximum 80 %, and set the timer such that it starts charging in the middle of the night (3am? 5am?) whenever your outdoor temp is the lowest. (Potentially stopping just before you plan to leave in the morning, if they have a set schedule, so that it doesn't stay at 80% longer than it needs to.) Jay On 05/31/2015 09:59 PM, Paul Dove via EV wrote: Possibly, it may use more than the charger supplies but I see you point. Still don't believe the effect will be a cooler battery. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com wrote: Paul, I'm pretty sure that while in the garage the EV would be plugged=20 in, thus drawing line current, not battery. -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:24:39 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also=20 causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the=20 battery even more. Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org= =20 wrote: My first comment: did they have a great EV grin ! On the A/C. I think running the A/C while in the garage would make=20 things worse. Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps=20 right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be=20 cooler. Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I=20 don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall. Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control? If so,= =20 keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a=20 bit more heat into the garage. Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping=20 the garage cooler. Other things that could help the garage temperature. Insulate the=20 space. Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from=20 getting hotter inside than out. Put a highly reflective coating on=20 the roof to reflect more sunlight. Sigh, all of these things cost=20 money... Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM Subject: [EVDL] Success! So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California=20 vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from=20 the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed=20 some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the= =20 garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to=20 today's forecasted high of 108=C2=B0F inside the garage, but it'll=20 definitely get rather toasty. What are the chances that the car will let you run the air=20 conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that=20 actually do anything to make the batteries happier? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL:=20 http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/255b= e410/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA=20 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1
Re: [EVDL] Success!
You could try using LeafSpy to check the battery condition. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Turbo3.Leaf_Spy_Lite Peri mentioned ventilating, but I would run it only when outdoor air temps are at least 5 degrees below indoor air temp. Night time pre-cooling for the following day, with added insulation. -Chris On 5/31/2015 2:33 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote: On 05/31/2015 02:03 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. I've come to believe that all Leaf instrumentation is intended to obfuscate. I hope 2013 means they have the temperature controlled battery. But, the one bar down at only 12k miles is troubling. At ~20k miles I was one bar down but had only about 65% of original range. OTOH, the current owner of my Leaf is pleased with ~50 miles of range. Since my battery's initial degradation, we haven't had another terrible summer and the battery seems not to have degraded much in the past two years. If your parents will be happy with ~50 miles, I imagine the car will serve them at least several years. 108 deg F means you are in Arizona? Utah? I believe the Leaf has a user settable charge level? If so, I would caution them to never fully charge in the hot season. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Ben, From http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/hot-climate-design The most important factors are: - ceiling should be insulated to at least R-30 - use highly reflective roofing - replace incandescent lighting with fluorescents (or LEDs) I would add to that insulating the west wall, assuming it gets sun all afternoon. Maybe the east wall. The other walls probably won't make much difference since they are mostly in shade. If you want lots of details, check out http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/11/f5/18899.pdf I understand that your preferred solution is to spend no additional money. However, if you are going to run an A/C in the garage, I know you are well aware that there is a payback for doing these energy savings techniques. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-May-15 3:38:06 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Ben Goren via EV wrote: They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. I live in Minnesota, where we have the opposite problems with our garages -- keeping them *warm*! My house had the usual bare 2x4 stud walls, with no insulation, no inside sheathing on the walls, and only drywall on the ceiling. I added 4 of fiberglass insulation; that barely helped. I added 8 fiberglass to the ceiling; that helped noticeably. Then I added 1/4 polystyrene panels to the wall, and covered them with masonite pegboard (for protection, and so I can hang tools etc. on them). That helped even more. The mass inside the garage (mainly the concrete floor) meant that even without heat, the closed garage stayed at about the average of the day/night temperature. And, I could heat it about 40 deg.F with a pair of 240vac 15amp electric heaters. That was OK for cool weather (like 30 deg.F outside, 70 deg.F inside. Last year I broke down and installed a small gas furnace. Now I can heat it to 70 deg.F even when it's 0 deg.F outside. Maybe if you insulated the garage, then a small window air conditioner would have no trouble keeping it reasonably cool. Or, could you add some passive thermal mass inside the garage; rock, or a few dozen 5-gal jugs full of water (closed, just for their thermal mass)? -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
I'm not sure that an evap cooler is viable anymore in our area... My understanding is that the cheapness of the materials that make up an evap cooler is a major factor in the lifetime cost. I know that I had to replace the pads each year, do some cleanout of the calcium buildup, maybe replace the rubber drive belt every year or so and replace the electric motor every 2/3 years. And after 8 years the rust was so bad that it would eat thru the cheaply protected body metal and so a new evap cooler was needed. There are many houses with water leaks down the air shaft that require walls/ceilings etc to be repaired. Many times the float valve becomes rusted open and even though the electricity is off, the water continues to flow and if it is not noticed will start destroying the roof structure itself. It is a horrible waste of water in this era where we have a massive drought. The poorly manufactured and electrically inefficient motor of an evap cooler sometimes uses as much electricity as an Air conditioner. There are NO energy star evap coolers. I was told that there was a study that took all these factors into account and the conclusion was that an AC with an efficient motor/compressor used as a heat pump was cheaper over a 10 year period than an evap cooler. And a personal story - I had one in a newly built shop, full of nice metal tools. I noticed that slowly the tools started rusting up and required more maintenance to keep the surfaces clean and useful. I got a split AC and have been very happy with it. Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Joe via EV Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 2:20 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! In Arizona, an evaporative cooler is very effective most of the year and is ideal for a garage. Even on the hottest days, 95F air out of the swamp cooler is better than nothing, and you'd still get much cooler air at night. Or, run the window a/c instead on the hottest/humid days. http://www.azcentral.com/weather/articles/evap.html On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote: but proably not at all worth the time/effort. Ah, well. 'Twas a thought My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the safe range. Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program the car to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few degrees of the coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise. They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas anybody might have! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/b2a 8f91d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20150531/fa92c565/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
I always used an evaporated cooler in my hot phoenix garage when charging. By 6am the battery pack could easily be at 70f Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Joe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Date: 06/01/2015 4:19 AM (GMT+07:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! In Arizona, an evaporative cooler is very effective most of the year and is ideal for a garage. Even on the hottest days, 95F air out of the swamp cooler is better than nothing, and you'd still get much cooler air at night. Or, run the window a/c instead on the hottest/humid days. http://www.azcentral.com/weather/articles/evap.html On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote: but proably not at all worth the time/effort. Ah, well. 'Twas a thought My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the safe range. Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program the car to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few degrees of the coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise. They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas anybody might have! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/b2a8f91d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150531/fa92c565/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/0b539975/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Ben Goren via EV wrote: They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other measure worth considering. I live in Minnesota, where we have the opposite problems with our garages -- keeping them *warm*! My house had the usual bare 2x4 stud walls, with no insulation, no inside sheathing on the walls, and only drywall on the ceiling. I added 4 of fiberglass insulation; that barely helped. I added 8 fiberglass to the ceiling; that helped noticeably. Then I added 1/4 polystyrene panels to the wall, and covered them with masonite pegboard (for protection, and so I can hang tools etc. on them). That helped even more. The mass inside the garage (mainly the concrete floor) meant that even without heat, the closed garage stayed at about the average of the day/night temperature. And, I could heat it about 40 deg.F with a pair of 240vac 15amp electric heaters. That was OK for cool weather (like 30 deg.F outside, 70 deg.F inside. Last year I broke down and installed a small gas furnace. Now I can heat it to 70 deg.F even when it's 0 deg.F outside. Maybe if you insulated the garage, then a small window air conditioner would have no trouble keeping it reasonably cool. Or, could you add some passive thermal mass inside the garage; rock, or a few dozen 5-gal jugs full of water (closed, just for their thermal mass)? -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On 05/31/2015 02:03 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%. Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them. One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty. I've come to believe that all Leaf instrumentation is intended to obfuscate. I hope 2013 means they have the temperature controlled battery. But, the one bar down at only 12k miles is troubling. At ~20k miles I was one bar down but had only about 65% of original range. OTOH, the current owner of my Leaf is pleased with ~50 miles of range. Since my battery's initial degradation, we haven't had another terrible summer and the battery seems not to have degraded much in the past two years. If your parents will be happy with ~50 miles, I imagine the car will serve them at least several years. 108 deg F means you are in Arizona? Utah? I believe the Leaf has a user settable charge level? If so, I would caution them to never fully charge in the hot season. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
