Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 10 Feb 2020 at 15:48, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or 
> at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the 
> right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.

You'll see more of this in coming years.  It's a growing trend for business 
to push their customers away from ownership and toward a rental 
relationship. 

Some other well known examples: software as a service instead of software 
purchased and installed and used for years; streamed music and movies 
instead of CDs and DVDs; books on an electronic gadget instead of physical 
books on your bookshelf.

The goal is to lock in a long term continuous revenue stream for the 
business.  Essentially, it's like being forced to forever rent your house or 
car instead of being able to buy it.  

You pay, but  not for the item; you pay for the right to USE the item.  The 
"seller" still owns it.  They can revoke your right to use the item at any 
time, based on arcane terms of a user agreement that you may have accepted 
without even reading.  It's insidous.

The push to move as many consumers and products/services as possible to a 
rental model means that you'll own less and less in coming years.  What you 
don't physically own will be subject to confiscation any time, for any 
reason.

And not just if your financial situation changes and you can't maintain the 
rent.  Sometimes things you think you own are taken away through no fault of 
your own.  

In an infamous case a few years ago, Amazon removed a paid-for book from 
users' Kindles because the rights on it had changed.  

There are also several cases where people "bought" downloaded music or video 
files that they now can't play because playing them requires that the 
playback hardware or software contact a net server for permission -- and the 
company that "sold" the files is out of business, or has just decided not to 
support them any more.  Remember "Plays for Sure"?

Imagine someone coming to your door and announcing, "Sorry, you're not 
allowed to read that book you bought 2 years ago any more.  Give it to me," 
or "Hey, we're going to re-release that movie, and we want you to go see it, 
so hand over your Blue-Ray."  

You'd never stand for it, which is why business loves this new model.  
Things they want to take back just quietly vanish.

Tesla's model extends this to vehicles.  NOT just a leased Tesla, which 
might be understandable, but one you bought and think you own!  

It's outright theft of an item that this buyer paid for, and that he 
expected to be able to use in the future.  It's comparable to Tesla sending 
its goons to break into his garage and rip the self-driving hardware out of 
the car.  It's just plain wrong. And if Tesla can do it to this buyer, they 
can do it to you.  

Peri speaks truth:  this should be illegal.  What's more, we shouldn't stand 
for it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Tesla finds out about some ownership changes when a new Tesla account is
created and the car is moved to the new account. They also had several
different SuC programs, some tied to car (transferable), some tied to
owner/account for duration of ownership of a particular car
(nontransferable), and some for limited months or miles or kWh.

Private party transactions shouldn't lead to available feature changes
(beyond features that are tied to a specific Tesla account).

But...if a Tesla vehicle is traded in to Tesla, where Tesla becomes the
legal owners, all bets are off as to the feature set on the car when Tesla
resells it (as compared to the original feature set). In that respect it is
like a dealer detuning a tuned-up engine, removing a turbocharger or engine
supercharger, or removing other engine or suspension performance parts.


On Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 15:27 paul dove via EV  wrote:

>  My vehicle has free supercharging. They said when I purchased it that
> this was not transferable.
> I suspect if I sold the car it may take some time for them to realize this
> perhaps when it is registered.
> At which time they would remove the free supercharging.
> I, for one, do not believe Tesla is taking away paid for services.
>
> On Monday, February 10, 2020, 1:22:54 PM CST, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  Well, that's probably a legality between the dealer and Tesla. Only if
> Tesla did not disclose to the dealer what features would remain could
> Tesla be guilty. I'm assuming the dealer knew or was ignorant (probably
> the latter). Even if ignorant, that's the dealers fault.
>
> If it is found that Tesla is changing things that don't accord with an
> agreement, then go after them.
>
> That said, I do think we need to some consumer protection laws so that,
> when you buy the car, you aren't signing away future value via some fine
> print that you must agree to.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "paul dove" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri
> Hartman" 
> Sent: 10-Feb-20 10:23:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used
> Model S After 'Audit'
>
> >I would agree with you if it was purchased... However, FSD was never
> >purchased.
> >
> >The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a
> >customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the
> >customer, FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer
> >it was just "a glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker
> >
> >On Monday, February 10, 2020, 9:48:45 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >I agree with David's point of view, mostly. If you buy a car, you
> >should
> >own it to the extent that it will continue to work in the same manner
> >as
> >when you bought it, of course allowing for eventual wear and tear.
> >
> >It becomes difficult to exactly say what "work in the same manner"
> >means, but to converge on its meaning would include all essential
> >operation of the car as well as any enhancements that were present at
> >the time of purchase. It would include software updates as long as the
> >owner is paying for the "service" of providing the updates. However,
> >the
> >updates themselves become part of the owner's property.
> >
> >It would not include things like map or music streaming services. Or
> >real-time server processing of autonomous driving data (I don't know if
> >there is such a thing right now).
> >
> >Other companies are being careful - and I presume Tesla is, too - about
> >not disabling original functionality. For example, Microsoft will sell
> >you their Office service, which gives you copies of their software on
> >your computer but also gives you cloud storage and other email hosting,
> >etc. If you stop paying, you lose all the service aspects plus the
> >ability to create new documents, but you can still use the software to
> >open and read documents.
> >
> >Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or
> >at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the
> >right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.
> >
> >Peri
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "paul dove via EV" 
> >To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >Cc: "paul dove" ; "EVDL Administrator"
> >
> >Sent: 10-Feb-20 3:59:10 AM
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used
> >

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[paul dove via EV]

 My vehicle has free supercharging. They said when I purchased it that this was 
not transferable.
I suspect if I sold the car it may take some time for them to realize this 
perhaps when it is registered.
At which time they would remove the free supercharging.
I, for one, do not believe Tesla is taking away paid for services.

On Monday, February 10, 2020, 1:22:54 PM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Well, that's probably a legality between the dealer and Tesla. Only if 
Tesla did not disclose to the dealer what features would remain could 
Tesla be guilty. I'm assuming the dealer knew or was ignorant (probably 
the latter). Even if ignorant, that's the dealers fault.

If it is found that Tesla is changing things that don't accord with an 
agreement, then go after them.

That said, I do think we need to some consumer protection laws so that, 
when you buy the car, you aren't signing away future value via some fine 
print that you must agree to.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 
Sent: 10-Feb-20 10:23:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used 
Model S After 'Audit'

>I would agree with you if it was purchased... However, FSD was never 
>purchased.
>
>The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a 
>customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the 
>customer, FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer 
>it was just "a glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker
>
>On Monday, February 10, 2020, 9:48:45 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
>I agree with David's point of view, mostly. If you buy a car, you 
>should
>own it to the extent that it will continue to work in the same manner 
>as
>when you bought it, of course allowing for eventual wear and tear.
>
>It becomes difficult to exactly say what "work in the same manner"
>means, but to converge on its meaning would include all essential
>operation of the car as well as any enhancements that were present at
>the time of purchase. It would include software updates as long as the
>owner is paying for the "service" of providing the updates. However, 
>the
>updates themselves become part of the owner's property.
>
>It would not include things like map or music streaming services. Or
>real-time server processing of autonomous driving data (I don't know if
>there is such a thing right now).
>
>Other companies are being careful - and I presume Tesla is, too - about
>not disabling original functionality. For example, Microsoft will sell
>you their Office service, which gives you copies of their software on
>your computer but also gives you cloud storage and other email hosting,
>etc. If you stop paying, you lose all the service aspects plus the
>ability to create new documents, but you can still use the software to
>open and read documents.
>
>Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or
>at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the
>right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.
>
>Peri
>
>------ Original Message --
>From: "paul dove via EV" 
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>Cc: "paul dove" ; "EVDL Administrator"
>
>Sent: 10-Feb-20 3:59:10 AM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used
>Model S After 'Audit'
>
> >It’s the exact same thing. His car still drives. Just certain SW 
>features don’t work. Cable can shutoff showtime, HBO or whatever else 
>you aren’t paying for... I am sure there are comparable examples in the 
>auto world I am just not up on features offered with other vehicles
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >>  On Feb 10, 2020, at 4:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>>  Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying 
>for the
> >>>  service too.
> >>
> >>  I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even 
>an
> >>  antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted 
>or not
> >>  at the whim of those providing it.
> >>
> >>  You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, 
>offering EV
> >>  transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its 
>cars.
> >>
> >>  It's gr

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Matthew Pitts via EV]

My view is that if the car originally did not have it enabled?? from the
manufacturer, but it was active due to an attempt to entice the owner to
pay to enable the feature, Telsa had every right to disable the feature.
They have also been known to disable the ability of car that have not
been recertified after an accident to use the Supercharger network.

Matthew Pitts

On 2/10/2020 2:22 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Well, that's probably a legality between the dealer and Tesla. Only if
> Tesla did not disclose to the dealer what features would remain could
> Tesla be guilty. I'm assuming the dealer knew or was ignorant
> (probably the latter). Even if ignorant, that's the dealers fault.
>
> If it is found that Tesla is changing things that don't accord with an
> agreement, then go after them.
>
> That said, I do think we need to some consumer protection laws so
> that, when you buy the car, you aren't signing away future value via
> some fine print that you must agree to.
>
> Peri
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[paul dove via EV]

That’s not accurate. The feature was not there at the time of purchase.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Damon Henry  wrote:
> 
> 
> That's a lot of churn on my original point.  Kia will not do this to you, 
> Tesla will if they feel like it.  They get to set the rules, not you.  From 
> the buyers perspective which is who I would be in this scenario.  A price was 
> negotiated on a car with a certain set of features listed as being part of 
> the purchase.  A few days after driving the car home features the buyer 
> thought he had paid for were removed from the car by the manufacturer...  
> Someone will have to explain to me how I will know exactly what I am buying 
> when I buy my used Tesla, which I very well may do some day.  Do I need to 
> call Tesla ahead of time and verify every feature I think I am getting on my 
> car?  Do I need to get it in writing from them???  Do they even have a 
> process in place that I can access, or do they just get to make decisions 
> with no thought towards the current "owner" of the car?
> 
> Damon
> From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:12 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: paul dove ; EVDL Administrator 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model 
> S After 'Audit'
>  
> Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the 
> service too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to 
> the dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from 
> the used car dealer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and 
> > steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did 
> > to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
> > 
> > And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design 
> > and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you. 
> > 
> > Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.  
> > 
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> > 
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> ___

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well, that's probably a legality between the dealer and Tesla. Only if 
Tesla did not disclose to the dealer what features would remain could 
Tesla be guilty. I'm assuming the dealer knew or was ignorant (probably 
the latter). Even if ignorant, that's the dealers fault.


If it is found that Tesla is changing things that don't accord with an 
agreement, then go after them.


That said, I do think we need to some consumer protection laws so that, 
when you buy the car, you aren't signing away future value via some fine 
print that you must agree to.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Sent: 10-Feb-20 10:23:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used 
Model S After 'Audit'


I would agree with you if it was purchased... However, FSD was never 
purchased.


The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a 
customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the 
customer, FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer 
it was just "a glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker


On Monday, February 10, 2020, 9:48:45 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:



I agree with David's point of view, mostly. If you buy a car, you 
should
own it to the extent that it will continue to work in the same manner 
as

when you bought it, of course allowing for eventual wear and tear.

It becomes difficult to exactly say what "work in the same manner"
means, but to converge on its meaning would include all essential
operation of the car as well as any enhancements that were present at
the time of purchase. It would include software updates as long as the
owner is paying for the "service" of providing the updates. However, 
the

updates themselves become part of the owner's property.

It would not include things like map or music streaming services. Or
real-time server processing of autonomous driving data (I don't know if
there is such a thing right now).

Other companies are being careful - and I presume Tesla is, too - about
not disabling original functionality. For example, Microsoft will sell
you their Office service, which gives you copies of their software on
your computer but also gives you cloud storage and other email hosting,
etc. If you stop paying, you lose all the service aspects plus the
ability to create new documents, but you can still use the software to
open and read documents.

Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or
at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the
right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" ; "EVDL Administrator"

Sent: 10-Feb-20 3:59:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used
Model S After 'Audit'

>It’s the exact same thing. His car still drives. Just certain SW 
features don’t work. Cable can shutoff showtime, HBO or whatever else 
you aren’t paying for... I am sure there are comparable examples in the 
auto world I am just not up on features offered with other vehicles

>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On Feb 10, 2020, at 4:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:

>>
>>  On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying 
for the

>>>  service too.
>>
>>  I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even 
an
>>  antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted 
or not

>>  at the whim of those providing it.
>>
>>  You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, 
offering EV
>>  transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its 
cars.

>>
>>  It's great that you love "your" Tesla unreservedly.  You can keep 
it -- as

>>  long as they allow you to.
>>
>>  David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>  EVDL Administrator
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>>  reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>>  email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>>  ___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm curious where the difference in information is coming from.  I have read a 
couple of different versions of the story and they explicitly stated that the 
feature was active.

I believe this is the original version I read.
jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617

It now contains this update at the bottom

Updated: Friday, February 7, 2020, 1:27 p.m. ET:

The dealership, United Traders, reached out to me to add some details and more 
information about the sale of the Tesla and what they knew of its features at 
the time of the sale:

I saw the Tesla story blowing up on your website and a few others as well. We 
are the dealership (United Traders) that sold the Tesla to Alec B_.

I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple 
times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your 
autopilot has been upgraded after a software update. Then it disappeared. I 
figured it was a glitch. I already had an agreement with Alec to purchase the 
vehicle.

He did come and test drive it a few days later, and we both agreed it was a 
technical difficulty or bug that would be fixed by next software update. Since 
then Tesla has been of no assistance to him, and I have been doing my best to 
get him some help in this case.

I sell dozens of Teslas a year, and sold my father in law a Model X P90D with 
ludicrous speed package. 60 days after the purchase of the car, Tesla removed 
his ludicrous speed package. Upon complaints to them they said he never paid 
for it. We have video evidence and multiple pictures of the vehicle with it. 
They even removed the line under the P90D. I am still shocked at these acts.


From: paul dove 
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 10:34 AM
To: Damon Henry 
Cc: paul dove via EV ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

That’s not accurate. The feature was not there at the time of purchase.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Damon Henry  wrote:


That's a lot of churn on my original point.  Kia will not do this to you, Tesla 
will if they feel like it.  They get to set the rules, not you.  From the 
buyers perspective which is who I would be in this scenario.  A price was 
negotiated on a car with a certain set of features listed as being part of the 
purchase.  A few days after driving the car home features the buyer thought he 
had paid for were removed from the car by the manufacturer...  Someone will 
have to explain to me how I will know exactly what I am buying when I buy my 
used Tesla, which I very well may do some day.  Do I need to call Tesla ahead 
of time and verify every feature I think I am getting on my car?  Do I need to 
get it in writing from them???  Do they even have a process in place that I can 
access, or do they just get to make decisions with no thought towards the 
current "owner" of the car?

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the service 
too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to the 
dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from the 
used car dealer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
>
> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
>
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.
>
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: 
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C6e8b6d5e03a3484539ef08d7adf39055%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637169133923349392&sdata=sdPpcUR3aVwwpAfymQtlhRRuJVNjWifae%2FJxqaF0J34%3D&reserved=0<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C25603a65395f43edcbbd08d7ae57deb7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637169564724964938&sdata=K2NnlU%2BSnGBNoaGbC%2B90SZgTeeg9QppbizCzB6lV3co%3D&reserved=0>
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> Note: mail sent 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[paul dove via EV]

 I would agree with you if it was purchased... However, FSD was never purchased.
The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a 
customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the customer, 
FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer it was just "a 
glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker

On Monday, February 10, 2020, 9:48:45 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I agree with David's point of view, mostly. If you buy a car, you should 
own it to the extent that it will continue to work in the same manner as 
when you bought it, of course allowing for eventual wear and tear.

It becomes difficult to exactly say what "work in the same manner" 
means, but to converge on its meaning would include all essential 
operation of the car as well as any enhancements that were present at 
the time of purchase. It would include software updates as long as the 
owner is paying for the "service" of providing the updates. However, the 
updates themselves become part of the owner's property.

It would not include things like map or music streaming services. Or 
real-time server processing of autonomous driving data (I don't know if 
there is such a thing right now).

Other companies are being careful - and I presume Tesla is, too - about 
not disabling original functionality. For example, Microsoft will sell 
you their Office service, which gives you copies of their software on 
your computer but also gives you cloud storage and other email hosting, 
etc. If you stop paying, you lose all the service aspects plus the 
ability to create new documents, but you can still use the software to 
open and read documents.

Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or 
at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the 
right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" ; "EVDL Administrator" 

Sent: 10-Feb-20 3:59:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used 
Model S After 'Audit'

>It’s the exact same thing. His car still drives. Just certain SW features 
>don’t work. Cable can shutoff showtime, HBO or whatever else you aren’t paying 
>for... I am sure there are comparable examples in the auto world I am just not 
>up on features offered with other vehicles
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On Feb 10, 2020, at 4:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
>>wrote:
>>
>>  On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying for the
>>>  service too.
>>
>>  I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even an
>>  antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted or not
>>  at the whim of those providing it.
>>
>>  You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, offering EV
>>  transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its cars.
>>
>>  It's great that you love "your" Tesla unreservedly.  You can keep it -- as
>>  long as they allow you to.
>>
>>  David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>  EVDL Administrator
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>>  reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>>  email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Damon Henry via EV]

That's a lot of churn on my original point.  Kia will not do this to you, Tesla 
will if they feel like it.  They get to set the rules, not you.  From the 
buyers perspective which is who I would be in this scenario.  A price was 
negotiated on a car with a certain set of features listed as being part of the 
purchase.  A few days after driving the car home features the buyer thought he 
had paid for were removed from the car by the manufacturer...  Someone will 
have to explain to me how I will know exactly what I am buying when I buy my 
used Tesla, which I very well may do some day.  Do I need to call Tesla ahead 
of time and verify every feature I think I am getting on my car?  Do I need to 
get it in writing from them???  Do they even have a process in place that I can 
access, or do they just get to make decisions with no thought towards the 
current "owner" of the car?

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the service 
too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to the 
dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from the 
used car dealer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
>
> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
>
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.
>
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: 
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C6e8b6d5e03a3484539ef08d7adf39055%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637169133923349392&sdata=sdPpcUR3aVwwpAfymQtlhRRuJVNjWifae%2FJxqaF0J34%3D&reserved=0
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I agree with David's point of view, mostly. If you buy a car, you should 
own it to the extent that it will continue to work in the same manner as 
when you bought it, of course allowing for eventual wear and tear.


It becomes difficult to exactly say what "work in the same manner" 
means, but to converge on its meaning would include all essential 
operation of the car as well as any enhancements that were present at 
the time of purchase. It would include software updates as long as the 
owner is paying for the "service" of providing the updates. However, the 
updates themselves become part of the owner's property.


It would not include things like map or music streaming services. Or 
real-time server processing of autonomous driving data (I don't know if 
there is such a thing right now).


Other companies are being careful - and I presume Tesla is, too - about 
not disabling original functionality. For example, Microsoft will sell 
you their Office service, which gives you copies of their software on 
your computer but also gives you cloud storage and other email hosting, 
etc. If you stop paying, you lose all the service aspects plus the 
ability to create new documents, but you can still use the software to 
open and read documents.


Ultimately we may need legal clarification of what it means to own, or 
at least indefinitely own the right to use. Similar to the 
right-to-repair issues fomenting right now.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" ; "EVDL Administrator" 


Sent: 10-Feb-20 3:59:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used 
Model S After 'Audit'



It’s the exact same thing. His car still drives. Just certain SW features don’t 
work. Cable can shutoff showtime, HBO or whatever else you aren’t paying for... 
I am sure there are comparable examples in the auto world I am just not up on 
features offered with other vehicles

Sent from my iPhone


 On Feb 10, 2020, at 4:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

 On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:


 Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying for the
 service too.


 I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even an
 antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted or not
 at the whim of those providing it.

 You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, offering EV
 transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its cars.

 It's great that you love "your" Tesla unreservedly.  You can keep it -- as
 long as they allow you to.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
 reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[paul dove via EV]

It’s the exact same thing. His car still drives. Just certain SW features don’t 
work. Cable can shutoff showtime, HBO or whatever else you aren’t paying for... 
I am sure there are comparable examples in the auto world I am just not up on 
features offered with other vehicles

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 4:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:
> 
>> Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying for the
>> service too.
> 
> I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even an 
> antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted or not 
> at the whim of those providing it.  
> 
> You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, offering EV 
> transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its cars.  
> 
> It's great that you love "your" Tesla unreservedly.  You can keep it -- as 
> long as they allow you to.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 9 Feb 2020 at 18:12, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you arenTMt paying for the
> service too.

I assume you mean HEARTbeat.  Cable TV isn't a car.  It's not even an 
antenna.  You don't own it.  It's strictly a service, to be granted or not 
at the whim of those providing it.  

You don't really own a Tesla, either.  Tesla is, in effect, offering EV 
transportation as a service, but charging you as if you owned its cars.  

It's great that you love "your" Tesla unreservedly.  You can keep it -- as 
long as they allow you to.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[paul dove via EV]

Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the service 
too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to the 
dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from the 
used car dealer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and 
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did 
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
> 
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design 
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you. 
> 
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Tesla has every right to do whatever it 
wants while it owns the car (while keeping it legal, of course). Whether 
the changes were communicated properly to the subsequent dealer is 
another matter.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Barry Oppenheim via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Barry Oppenheim" 
Sent: 09-Feb-20 4:09:57 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used 
Model S After 'Audit'



The buyer of the car did not buy the vehicle from Tesla.  He bought if from
a third party.

My understanding is that the car was either a trade in or buy back by
Tesla.  Tesla then sold the car at auction to a third party dealer.  The
dealer listed the car based on the original sticker features.

Tesla frequently removes upgraded features on resale cars in order to lower
the price and move the vehicle quicker.  The FSD was part of the original
car package, but not on the vehicle sold at auction.  The only thing
unclear is what features Tesla listed on the vehicle at auction and whether
the dealer thought he bought a car with FSD or new the car did not have
FSD, but priced based on the original sticker.

https://twitter.com/thirdrowtesla/status/1225930174677442562

Barry

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 6:54 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:


 They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
 steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM
 did
 to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.

 And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant
 design
 and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.

 Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Barry Oppenheim via EV]

The buyer of the car did not buy the vehicle from Tesla.  He bought if from
a third party.

My understanding is that the car was either a trade in or buy back by
Tesla.  Tesla then sold the car at auction to a third party dealer.  The
dealer listed the car based on the original sticker features.

Tesla frequently removes upgraded features on resale cars in order to lower
the price and move the vehicle quicker.  The FSD was part of the original
car package, but not on the vehicle sold at auction.  The only thing
unclear is what features Tesla listed on the vehicle at auction and whether
the dealer thought he bought a car with FSD or new the car did not have
FSD, but priced based on the original sticker.

https://twitter.com/thirdrowtesla/status/1225930174677442562

Barry

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 6:54 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM
> did
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
>
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant
> design
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.
>
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and 
steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did 
to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.

And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design 
and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you. 

Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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[EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[John Lussmyer via EV]

>https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+audit
>
>Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from
>Used Model S After 'Audit'
>ExtremeTech·2 days ago

This reads like a lawsuit in the making.
Listing the car as having this feature, selling it, then removing the feature.
(the article says that Tesla sold it to the used car dealer with the feature, 
then audited and decided it shouldn't have the feature.)

--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
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