Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator headaches

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well said, Bill.

Another way to look at this is in reverse.  If a luxury ICE is 
considered noisy enough to sufficiently alert peds and cyclists, then 
that noise level could be the standard for quieter vehicles.  Why should 
EVs and hybrids have to be noisier?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 29-Nov-15 8:36:56 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US 
regulator headaches


The way to kill this bill is to have _all_ cars, regardless of drive 
train, emit a certain number of dB.

The quiet ICE luxury cars will object, likely loudly. :-)

It is my job, as the driver of the vehicle, to avoid pedestrians, 
animals, bicyclists, etc. I have managed quite successfully since 1996. 
No problems whatsoever in all those years. Not even a close call. I 
_occasionally_ have to roll down the window and politely say, "Excuse 
me please."to make someone standing and chatting in a parking lot aware 
that you are present and to move.


Just amend the bill for _all_ vehicles, not just electric, and it will 
disappear "quietly". :-)


Bill Dube'

On 11/29/2015 1:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators
'Too quiet' electric and hybrid cars create headache for US regulators
24 November 2015   Reuters

[image
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators#img-1
US regulators want hybrid and electric cars to give audible warnings 
at low
speeds. Photograph: Simon Stuart-Miller/Simon Stuart Miller 
(commissioned)

]

Road safety authorities and automakers wrangle over new rules 
requiring

loudspeakers to warn cyclists and visually impaired people

US regulators are grappling with new rules for electric and hybrid 
cars that

are too quiet, leading to fears of collisions with cyclists and
sight-impaired pedestrians unless the vehicles are fitted with 
artificial

noise-making systems.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the odds 
of a
hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19% higher 
compared

with a gasoline-powered vehicle.

The car safety regulator has said that if the proposal were 
implemented
there would be 2,800 fewer pedestrian and bicyclist injuries annually. 
There

are about 125,000 such accidents each year.

But the regulators have been forced to delay until at least March 2016 
a
government plan, in the works since 2013, to require “quiet cars” – 
vehicles
that operate at low speeds without a gasoline engine running – to add 
new

audio alerts at low speeds.

The proposed rules would require automakers like Tesla, General 
Motors, Ford
and Toyota to add automatic audio alerts to electric and hybrid 
vehicles

traveling at 18 miles per hour or less.

This would apply to hybrid and electric cars, SUVs, trucks, buses and
motorcycles. Advocates for the blind have pushed for the rules.

Automakers have raised concerns about the alerts, saying they are too 
loud
and too complicated. They also want them required only at lower 
speeds.


Under a 2010 law passed by Congress the NHTSA was supposed to finalize 
the
regulations by January 2014. Automakers will get a minimum of 18 
months from
the time the rules are finalized before they must begin adding the 
alerts.


NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said in July the regulation would be
finalized by November – a timetable the agency says in a new 
government

document that it will not be able to meet.

The Transportation Department, in explaining the latest delay, said in 
a
document posted on its website that “additional coordination is 
necessary”.

NHTSA declined to elaborate on Tuesday.

NHTSA in 2013 said it expected the rules would cost the auto industry 
about
$23m in the first year because automakers would need to add an 
external

waterproof speaker to comply.
[© 2015 Guardian News]



https://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/us-delays-quiet-car-rules-covering-hybrids-and-electric-cars-until-march-2016/
US delays ‘quiet car’ rules covering hybrids and electric cars until 
March

2016
24 Nov 2015  Reuters  U.S. regulators are delaying rules that would 
require
electric and hybrid cars to alert sight-impaired pedestrians and 
bicyclists

until at least mid-March, according ...
...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/feds-postpone-hybrid-ev-warning-noises-next-year/
Feds Postpone Hybrid and EV Warning Noises Until Next Year
November 25, 2015  Federal regulators have postponed rules to require 
hybrid

and EV carmakers to add audible warnings to their cars to alert nearby
pedestrians, bicyclists and visually impaired people, Reuters 
reported. The

audible …




For EVLN EV-newswire posts u

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator headaches

[Bill Dube via EV]

I wonder if there have been any EV vs pedestrian accidents? There are 
certainly enough of them on the road these days to generate statistics.

Any worse (or better) than ICE vehicles? Luxury cars?
Another good tactic to "kill the bill" is to request a "study", 
preferably a multi-year study. :-)


Bill D.

On 11/29/2015 9:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Well said, Bill.

Another way to look at this is in reverse.  If a luxury ICE is 
considered noisy enough to sufficiently alert peds and cyclists, then 
that noise level could be the standard for quieter vehicles. Why 
should EVs and hybrids have to be noisier?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 29-Nov-15 8:36:56 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US 
regulator headaches


The way to kill this bill is to have _all_ cars, regardless of drive 
train, emit a certain number of dB.

The quiet ICE luxury cars will object, likely loudly. :-)

It is my job, as the driver of the vehicle, to avoid pedestrians, 
animals, bicyclists, etc. I have managed quite successfully since 
1996. No problems whatsoever in all those years. Not even a close 
call. I _occasionally_ have to roll down the window and politely say, 
"Excuse me please."to make someone standing and chatting in a parking 
lot aware that you are present and to move.


Just amend the bill for _all_ vehicles, not just electric, and it 
will disappear "quietly". :-)


Bill Dube'

On 11/29/2015 1:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators 


'Too quiet' electric and hybrid cars create headache for US regulators
24 November 2015   Reuters

[image
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators#img-1 

US regulators want hybrid and electric cars to give audible warnings 
at low
speeds. Photograph: Simon Stuart-Miller/Simon Stuart Miller 
(commissioned)

]

Road safety authorities and automakers wrangle over new rules requiring
loudspeakers to warn cyclists and visually impaired people

US regulators are grappling with new rules for electric and hybrid 
cars that

are too quiet, leading to fears of collisions with cyclists and
sight-impaired pedestrians unless the vehicles are fitted with 
artificial

noise-making systems.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the 
odds of a
hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19% higher 
compared

with a gasoline-powered vehicle.

The car safety regulator has said that if the proposal were implemented
there would be 2,800 fewer pedestrian and bicyclist injuries 
annually. There

are about 125,000 such accidents each year.

But the regulators have been forced to delay until at least March 
2016 a
government plan, in the works since 2013, to require “quiet cars” – 
vehicles
that operate at low speeds without a gasoline engine running – to 
add new

audio alerts at low speeds.

The proposed rules would require automakers like Tesla, General 
Motors, Ford
and Toyota to add automatic audio alerts to electric and hybrid 
vehicles

traveling at 18 miles per hour or less.

This would apply to hybrid and electric cars, SUVs, trucks, buses and
motorcycles. Advocates for the blind have pushed for the rules.

Automakers have raised concerns about the alerts, saying they are 
too loud

and too complicated. They also want them required only at lower speeds.

Under a 2010 law passed by Congress the NHTSA was supposed to 
finalize the
regulations by January 2014. Automakers will get a minimum of 18 
months from
the time the rules are finalized before they must begin adding the 
alerts.


NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said in July the regulation would be
finalized by November – a timetable the agency says in a new government
document that it will not be able to meet.

The Transportation Department, in explaining the latest delay, said 
in a
document posted on its website that “additional coordination is 
necessary”.

NHTSA declined to elaborate on Tuesday.

NHTSA in 2013 said it expected the rules would cost the auto 
industry about

$23m in the first year because automakers would need to add an external
waterproof speaker to comply.
[© 2015 Guardian News]



https://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/us-delays-quiet-car-rules-covering-hybrids-and-electric-cars-until-march-2016/ 

US delays ‘quiet car’ rules covering hybrids and electric cars until 
March

2016
24 Nov 2015  Reuters  U.S. regulators are delaying rules that would 
require
electric and hybrid cars to alert sight-impaired pedestrians and 
bicyclists

until at least mid-March, according ...
...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/feds-po

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator headaches

[Roland via EV]

   
What about ICE's that are too quiet?  A friend of mine drove to my house to 
pick me up.  I did not hear the vehicle at all.  I thought the engine was off.  
It was idling. 

 

As the vehicle came up to speed, it was way quieter then my EV. I can hear the 
electric power steering pump, electric hydraulic brake pump, vacuum pump, the 
transmission gears shifting in my EV.

 

The differential gear is a straight gear type, not a bevel gear type which are 
very quiet.  The ring gear and pinion in the straight gear type are set tight 
with no back lass which are more efficient, but causes a noise like a UFO 
coming in for a landing when I coast to a stop or accelerated up to speed. 

 

Roland   


- Original Message - 

From: brucedp5 via EV 

To: ev@lists.evdl.org 

Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:18 AM

Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator 
headaches





http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators
'Too quiet' electric and hybrid cars create headache for US regulators
24 November 2015   Reuters

[image  
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators#img-1
US regulators want hybrid and electric cars to give audible warnings at low
speeds. Photograph: Simon Stuart-Miller/Simon Stuart Miller (commissioned)
]

Road safety authorities and automakers wrangle over new rules requiring
loudspeakers to warn cyclists and visually impaired people

US regulators are grappling with new rules for electric and hybrid cars that
are too quiet, leading to fears of collisions with cyclists and
sight-impaired pedestrians unless the vehicles are fitted with artificial
noise-making systems.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the odds of a
hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19% higher compared
with a gasoline-powered vehicle.

The car safety regulator has said that if the proposal were implemented
there would be 2,800 fewer pedestrian and bicyclist injuries annually. There
are about 125,000 such accidents each year.

But the regulators have been forced to delay until at least March 2016 a
government plan, in the works since 2013, to require “quiet cars” – vehicles
that operate at low speeds without a gasoline engine running – to add new
audio alerts at low speeds.

The proposed rules would require automakers like Tesla, General Motors, Ford
and Toyota to add automatic audio alerts to electric and hybrid vehicles
traveling at 18 miles per hour or less.

This would apply to hybrid and electric cars, SUVs, trucks, buses and
motorcycles. Advocates for the blind have pushed for the rules.

Automakers have raised concerns about the alerts, saying they are too loud
and too complicated. They also want them required only at lower speeds.

Under a 2010 law passed by Congress the NHTSA was supposed to finalize the
regulations by January 2014. Automakers will get a minimum of 18 months from
the time the rules are finalized before they must begin adding the alerts.

NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said in July the regulation would be
finalized by November – a timetable the agency says in a new government
document that it will not be able to meet.

The Transportation Department, in explaining the latest delay, said in a
document posted on its website that “additional coordination is necessary”.
NHTSA declined to elaborate on Tuesday.

NHTSA in 2013 said it expected the rules would cost the auto industry about
$23m in the first year because automakers would need to add an external
waterproof speaker to comply.
[© 2015 Guardian News]



https://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/us-delays-quiet-car-rules-covering-hybrids-and-electric-cars-until-march-2016/
US delays ‘quiet car’ rules covering hybrids and electric cars until March
2016
24 Nov 2015  Reuters  U.S. regulators are delaying rules that would require
electric and hybrid cars to alert sight-impaired pedestrians and bicyclists
until at least mid-March, according ...
...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/feds-postpone-hybrid-ev-warning-noises-next-year/
Feds Postpone Hybrid and EV Warning Noises Until Next Year
November 25, 2015  Federal regulators have postponed rules to require hybrid
and EV carmakers to add audible warnings to their cars to alert nearby
pedestrians, bicyclists and visually impaired people, Reuters reported. The
audible 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator headaches

[Bill Dube via EV]

The way to kill this bill is to have _all_ cars, regardless of drive 
train, emit a certain number of dB.

The quiet ICE luxury cars will object, likely loudly. :-)

It is my job, as the driver of the vehicle, to avoid pedestrians, 
animals, bicyclists, etc. I have managed quite successfully since 1996. 
No problems whatsoever in all those years. Not even a close call. I 
_occasionally_ have to roll down the window and politely say, "Excuse me 
please."to make someone standing and chatting in a parking lot aware 
that you are present and to move.


Just amend the bill for _all_ vehicles, not just electric, and it will 
disappear "quietly". :-)


Bill Dube'

On 11/29/2015 1:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators
'Too quiet' electric and hybrid cars create headache for US regulators
24 November 2015   Reuters

[image
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators#img-1
US regulators want hybrid and electric cars to give audible warnings at low
speeds. Photograph: Simon Stuart-Miller/Simon Stuart Miller (commissioned)
]

Road safety authorities and automakers wrangle over new rules requiring
loudspeakers to warn cyclists and visually impaired people

US regulators are grappling with new rules for electric and hybrid cars that
are too quiet, leading to fears of collisions with cyclists and
sight-impaired pedestrians unless the vehicles are fitted with artificial
noise-making systems.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the odds of a
hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19% higher compared
with a gasoline-powered vehicle.

The car safety regulator has said that if the proposal were implemented
there would be 2,800 fewer pedestrian and bicyclist injuries annually. There
are about 125,000 such accidents each year.

But the regulators have been forced to delay until at least March 2016 a
government plan, in the works since 2013, to require “quiet cars” – vehicles
that operate at low speeds without a gasoline engine running – to add new
audio alerts at low speeds.

The proposed rules would require automakers like Tesla, General Motors, Ford
and Toyota to add automatic audio alerts to electric and hybrid vehicles
traveling at 18 miles per hour or less.

This would apply to hybrid and electric cars, SUVs, trucks, buses and
motorcycles. Advocates for the blind have pushed for the rules.

Automakers have raised concerns about the alerts, saying they are too loud
and too complicated. They also want them required only at lower speeds.

Under a 2010 law passed by Congress the NHTSA was supposed to finalize the
regulations by January 2014. Automakers will get a minimum of 18 months from
the time the rules are finalized before they must begin adding the alerts.

NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said in July the regulation would be
finalized by November – a timetable the agency says in a new government
document that it will not be able to meet.

The Transportation Department, in explaining the latest delay, said in a
document posted on its website that “additional coordination is necessary”.
NHTSA declined to elaborate on Tuesday.

NHTSA in 2013 said it expected the rules would cost the auto industry about
$23m in the first year because automakers would need to add an external
waterproof speaker to comply.
[© 2015 Guardian News]



https://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/us-delays-quiet-car-rules-covering-hybrids-and-electric-cars-until-march-2016/
US delays ‘quiet car’ rules covering hybrids and electric cars until March
2016
24 Nov 2015  Reuters  U.S. regulators are delaying rules that would require
electric and hybrid cars to alert sight-impaired pedestrians and bicyclists
until at least mid-March, according ...
...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/feds-postpone-hybrid-ev-warning-noises-next-year/
Feds Postpone Hybrid and EV Warning Noises Until Next Year
November 25, 2015  Federal regulators have postponed rules to require hybrid
and EV carmakers to add audible warnings to their cars to alert nearby
pedestrians, bicyclists and visually impaired people, Reuters reported. The
audible …




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US regulator headaches

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Wow, GREAT idea!  Lets write our congressmen!
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:37 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 'Too quiet' electrified cars estimated as US
regulator headaches

The way to kill this bill is to have _all_ cars, regardless of drive train,
emit a certain number of dB.
The quiet ICE luxury cars will object, likely loudly. :-)

It is my job, as the driver of the vehicle, to avoid pedestrians, animals,
bicyclists, etc. I have managed quite successfully since 1996.
No problems whatsoever in all those years. Not even a close call. I
_occasionally_ have to roll down the window and politely say, "Excuse me
please."to make someone standing and chatting in a parking lot aware that
you are present and to move.

Just amend the bill for _all_ vehicles, not just electric, and it will
disappear "quietly". :-)

Bill Dube'

On 11/29/2015 1:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-
> and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators
> 'Too quiet' electric and hybrid cars create headache for US regulators
> 24 November 2015   Reuters
>
> [image
> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/25/too-quiet-electric-
> and-hybrid-cars-create-headache-for-us-regulators#img-1
> US regulators want hybrid and electric cars to give audible warnings
> at low speeds. Photograph: Simon Stuart-Miller/Simon Stuart Miller
> (commissioned) ]
>
> Road safety authorities and automakers wrangle over new rules
> requiring loudspeakers to warn cyclists and visually impaired people
>
> US regulators are grappling with new rules for electric and hybrid
> cars that are too quiet, leading to fears of collisions with cyclists
> and sight-impaired pedestrians unless the vehicles are fitted with
> artificial noise-making systems.
>
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the odds
> of a hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19%
> higher compared with a gasoline-powered vehicle.
>
> The car safety regulator has said that if the proposal were
> implemented there would be 2,800 fewer pedestrian and bicyclist
> injuries annually. There are about 125,000 such accidents each year.
>
> But the regulators have been forced to delay until at least March 2016
> a government plan, in the works since 2013, to require “quiet cars” –
> vehicles that operate at low speeds without a gasoline engine running
> – to add new audio alerts at low speeds.
>
> The proposed rules would require automakers like Tesla, General
> Motors, Ford and Toyota to add automatic audio alerts to electric and
> hybrid vehicles traveling at 18 miles per hour or less.
>
> This would apply to hybrid and electric cars, SUVs, trucks, buses and
> motorcycles. Advocates for the blind have pushed for the rules.
>
> Automakers have raised concerns about the alerts, saying they are too
> loud and too complicated. They also want them required only at lower
> speeds.
>
> Under a 2010 law passed by Congress the NHTSA was supposed to finalize
> the regulations by January 2014. Automakers will get a minimum of 18
> months from the time the rules are finalized before they must begin adding
> the alerts.
>
> NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said in July the regulation would be
> finalized by November – a timetable the agency says in a new
> government document that it will not be able to meet.
>
> The Transportation Department, in explaining the latest delay, said in
> a document posted on its website that “additional coordination is
> necessary”.
> NHTSA declined to elaborate on Tuesday.
>
> NHTSA in 2013 said it expected the rules would cost the auto industry
> about $23m in the first year because automakers would need to add an
> external waterproof speaker to comply.
> [© 2015 Guardian News]
>
>
>
> https://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/us-delays-quiet-car-rules-covering-hy
> brids-and-electric-cars-until-march-2016/
> US delays ‘quiet car’ rules covering hybrids and electric cars until
> March
> 2016
> 24 Nov 2015  Reuters  U.S. regulators are delaying rules that would
> require electric and hybrid cars to alert sight-impaired pedestrians
> and bicyclists until at least mid-March, according ...
> ...
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/feds-postpone-hybrid-ev-warni
> ng-noises-next-year/ Feds Postpone Hybrid and EV Warning Noises Until
> Next Year November 25, 2015  Federal regulators have postponed rules
> to require hybrid and EV carmakers to add audible warnings to their
> cars to alert nearby pedestrians, bicyclists and visually impaired
> people, Reuters repo