Re: why can't we erase information?

[Tom Caylor]

In a general sense, if we (the observer) are outside of the system,
there is a definition of closed system which allows output from the
system, even though there is no input into the system, *if such a
configuration is possible*.  If there is no output, I agree with you
that the system is unknowable.

If the observer is inside (part of) the closed system, that's when
things get very mystifying.  In this case there are non-trivial limits
to what we can know about the system, even though we are in it, since
our framework of knowing is also part of the system.  (For instance,
I maintain that in this case we cannot know if information is being
erased.)  But I don't think that's what your question was referring to.

Tom

John M wrote:
 Tom: one excerpt I try to address:

 Closed system (Principia Cybernetica): An isolated
 system having no
 interaction with an environment.  A system whose
 behavior is entirely
 explainable from within, a system without input...
 (I skip the rest, including the mathematical closure
 as irrelevant for my reply).

 How do you know about such system?
 What I mean is: if NO interaction reaches or leaves
 the 'system', (it includes 'information as well) it
 does
 not even 'exist' for us. It is more than a 'black
 hole' which is said to be receptive. A 'closed
 no-thing'?

 John M


 - Original Message -
 From: Tom Caylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Everything List
 everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 6:18 PM
 Subject: Re: why can't we erase information?




 Bruno Marchal wrote:
  Le 25-avr.-06, à 17:37, Tom Caylor a écrit :
 
  
   In fact, closed system and meta element seem
 to be contradictory.
 
  Not necessarily. It could depend of what you mean
 exactly by closed.
  Closure for the diagonalization procedure is the
 key. Diagonalization
  is the key of the heart of the matter. I will come
 back on this
  later.
 

 Closed system (Principia Cybernetica): An isolated
 system having no
 interaction with an environment.  A system whose
 behavior is entirely
 explainable from within, a system without input...

 Mathematically, a closed system contains its boundary,
 or it contains
 its limit points.  In other words, anything
 expressable with the given
 axioms/language is itself a member the system.
 ...SKIP
 Tom


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Re: why can't we erase information?

[John M]

Russell, you 'opem' and 'close' a system? Why woulod
you close it, once it is already open? and how would
you find it again, when it is closed?

And how do you assess those closed system laws, if
no info goes in or out? (need an intelligent design?)

Is OUR time-scale valid to the inside of an unknowable
closed system? You decide as you need - see below,

I segregated the black-hole type phantasms which allow
action INTO them - and Hawkins had to make allowance
even for them to 'release' SOME information as I
understand. Well, these things are our brainchildren,
not 'ntaure's' so we identify them as we need it.

John M 

--- Russell Standish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 We can observe a closed system at two points in time
 t0, t1 say. The
 system is closed in between, but not at the point of
 observation,
 obviously.
 
 The evolution of the system between the two
 observation points must
 follow closed system laws.
 
 Cheers
 
 On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 06:42:26PM -0700, John M
 wrote:
  
  
  Tom: one excerpt I try to address:
  
  Closed system (Principia Cybernetica): An
 isolated
  system having no
  interaction with an environment.  A system whose
  behavior is entirely
  explainable from within, a system without
 input...
  (I skip the rest, including the mathematical
 closure
  as irrelevant for my reply).
  
  How do you know about such system?
  What I mean is: if NO interaction reaches or
 leaves
  the 'system', (it includes 'information as well)
 it
  does
  not even 'exist' for us. It is more than a 'black
  hole' which is said to be receptive. A 'closed
  no-thing'?
  
  John M
  
  
  - Original Message -
  From: Tom Caylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Everything List
  everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 6:18 PM
  Subject: Re: why can't we erase information?
  
  
  
  
  Bruno Marchal wrote:
   Le 25-avr.-06, à 17:37, Tom Caylor a écrit :
  
   
In fact, closed system and meta element
 seem
  to be contradictory.
  
   Not necessarily. It could depend of what you
 mean
  exactly by closed.
   Closure for the diagonalization procedure is the
  key. Diagonalization
   is the key of the heart of the matter. I will
 come
  back on this
   later.
  
  
  Closed system (Principia Cybernetica): An isolated
  system having no
  interaction with an environment.  A system whose
  behavior is entirely
  explainable from within, a system without input...
  
  Mathematically, a closed system contains its
 boundary,
  or it contains
  its limit points.  In other words, anything
  expressable with the given
  axioms/language is itself a member the system.
  ...SKIP
  Tom
  
  
  
  
  
 -- 


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