Re: Asifism revisited.
Jason skrev: Note that you did not say thought was non-existent in B-universe, I think one can construct complex conscious awareness to the collection of a large number of simultaneous thoughts. I had the intention to include thoughts, but I was unsure about how to spell that word (where to put all those h:s...), so I included the thoughts in all that kind of stuff. The B-Universe should not include any thouths(!). The B-Universe should be a strictly materialistic Universe. -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Asifism revisited.
Your example suppose many things which are not granted to be possible: 1- The one who compare them is in neither of them... What is comparing these universes ? a conscious being ? 2- The fact that they are identical implies that both have consciousness. If one really lacked it then they would be no one to ask what it feels as they're would be no person in it and that would be a huge difference. I don't remember having read participants of this list arguing for a dualism of consciousness. Consciousness must be a process created by properties of this universe, it is not a component that can be thrown out, it is part of it. If behavior is the same as a conscious being (please mind that for this comparison you acknowledge the existence of at least one to compare) then the being is conscious too. You can't say they're the same but are different, it is not consistant. Regards, Quentin 2007/7/4, Torgny Tholerus [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jason skrev: Note that you did not say thought was non-existent in B-universe, I think one can construct complex conscious awareness to the collection of a large number of simultaneous thoughts. I had the intention to include thoughts, but I was unsure about how to spell that word (where to put all those h:s...), so I included the thoughts in all that kind of stuff. The B-Universe should not include any thouths(!). The B-Universe should be a strictly materialistic Universe. -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Asifism revisited.
David Nyman skrev: On 04/07/07, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SP: We can imagine an external observer looking at two model universes A and B side by side, interviewing their occupants. DN: Yes, and my point precisely is that this is an illegitimate sleight of imagination where the thought experiment goes amiss. When one imagines the 'external' observer 'looking' at two universes, one constructs precisely the false relationship that is the source of the confusion with respect to consciousness. Any possible observer must in fact be integral to their own universe. You can look at the Game-of-Life-Universe, where you can see how the "gliders" move. If you look at "Conway's game of Life" in Wikipedia, you can look at how the Glider Gun is working in the top right corner. This is possible although there is no observer integral to that Universe. The same is true about the B-Universe. You can look at it as an outside observer. -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Asifism revisited.
You're doing a giant step for considering current GoL as an universe... but anyway you can, but it's not because you see one glider in your tiny framed GoL that the interaction of billions of cells does not generate a consciousness inside the GoL universe and you as an external observer couldn't see/recognize it as it is. Quentin 2007/7/4, Torgny Tholerus [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David Nyman skrev: On 04/07/07, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SP: We can imagine an external observer looking at two model universes A and B side by side, interviewing their occupants. DN: Yes, and my point precisely is that this is an illegitimate sleight of imagination where the thought experiment goes amiss. When one imagines the 'external' observer 'looking' at two universes, one constructs precisely the false relationship that is the source of the confusion with respect to consciousness. Any possible observer must in fact be integral to their own universe. You can look at the Game-of-Life-Universe, where you can see how the gliders move. If you look at Conway's game of Life in Wikipedia, you can look at how the Glider Gun is working in the top right corner. This is possible although there is no observer integral to that Universe. The same is true about the B-Universe. You can look at it as an outside observer. -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Asifism revisited.
On 04/07/07, Torgny Tholerus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TT: You can look at the Game-of-Life-Universe, where you can see how the gliders move. If you look at Conway's game of Life in Wikipedia, you can look at how the Glider Gun is working in the top right corner. This is possible although there is no observer integral to that Universe. DN: Please, if we are to make progress, may we have more precision? You clearly specified a hypothetical B-Universe which you invited us to consider might be different in some fundamental way to ours. GoL is clearly in no way a different 'universe' in this sense - you're making a loose, conversational use of the term which has an entirely different entailment. GoL is a part of the A-Universe just as we are, so as integral observers of course we can observe it. You have however drawn our attention to something very interesting and important IMO. This concerns the necessary entailment of 'existence'. When we perform the thought experiment, we cause a B-Universe to 'exist'. What kind of existence is this? Well, it's a thought pattern, so you may wish to consider it as an aspect of brain, or mind, or both. Either way, its part of us, and as such, its 'existence' consists of participation in the A-Universe. Simply put, the entailment of 'existence' is participation. So we may grant real existence to the *idea* of the B-Universe whilst recognising that its putative reference is non-existent in the A-Universe. Nevertheless, we may still 'flesh-out' the metaphor of the B-Universe, but crucially, if we are to do so without misleading ourselves, we must grant events within it the equivalent category of actual - not metaphorical - existence as that possessed by events within the A-Universe: that of participation, or self-relation. David David Nyman skrev: On 04/07/07, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SP: We can imagine an external observer looking at two model universes A and B side by side, interviewing their occupants. DN: Yes, and my point precisely is that this is an illegitimate sleight of imagination where the thought experiment goes amiss. When one imagines the 'external' observer 'looking' at two universes, one constructs precisely the false relationship that is the source of the confusion with respect to consciousness. Any possible observer must in fact be integral to their own universe. You can look at the Game-of-Life-Universe, where you can see how the gliders move. If you look at Conway's game of Life in Wikipedia, you can look at how the Glider Gun is working in the top right corner. This is possible although there is no observer integral to that Universe. The same is true about the B-Universe. You can look at it as an outside observer. -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
