Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
I'm not sure I follow much of what you are saying here. Maybe I need to go away and sleep on it. Then again, it's hard to answer comments on your memory of another thread... One thing about 1984 is that the Party are, I think interestingly, powerless. They never let *anyone* who commits thoughtcrime go free, they are always cured and then executed. This means the Party is simply a machine that follows this pattern, with no choice in the matter. On 18 March 2014 17:15, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:43:58 AM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 11:37:36 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 18 March 2014 05:01, spudb...@aol.com wrote: Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. That is exactly how I feel about it. However I suspect that your rants about how [insert special interest group here] are a bunch of [insert despised political group here] planning to create a [insert feared political system here] may not have helped people appreciate that this is your position. What's interesting about the way you write this as a fill-the-blanks template, is the question of how close your template comes to ubiquity in terms of total-humans/humans-filtering-the-world-through-lizzies- templatee At least partially filtering through the template anyway. Keeping meaningfulness by requiring instances of whole template usage, not partial. Staying with that measure, a further question would be how much more closely does your template define the contemporary era than others in history? Then, defining each era in terms of how much your template captures it, what does history look like on those terms? Does it tell a coherent story? Like, are there lizzie template spikes at the major milestones, like the French Revolution, or the Bolshevik Takeover of Russia, or during the Cold War. Would that template alone be enough to define every historical period sufficiently that each one, say, had its own distinctive template usage character. For example the Cold War might feature massive usage, but with everything breaking down into two templates in most common use. One for soviet and the other for American sympathy. Bolshevik could also be largely broken into two, one involving, say, the bourgeoisie or something. French Revolution might pair around 'aristocracy'. Thinking about it, could not the emergent pattern from history be that there is generally a reactionary and revolutionary template? A template for the incumbent and for would-be nemesis. Or in time, of the power that ruled in time going backwards and power that rules in time going forwards...around some point. The cold war template would kind of break into four..two each for East and West, such that both represent both positions. But does the contemporary situation fit the historical pattern? It seems vastly more complex to me. In all the other instances, there was major backing for the template...two elites, or one elite and one would-be elite, would be ultimate backers of one of the two mirroring templates. Everyone pretty much knew who the elites were. At least that could be said. Do we know now? What would the template usage say, keeping with the idea of that being the only information allowed to define history. Would the template usage that said knowledge of elites was fairly strong, show a division about two ways? That'd fit with historical situation. What about now? Fair enough history must have had some outlying daft theories like now, so let's elimate those. Also control for the information revolution and the extents, then, of templates becoming more complex due to people being influenced online. One way to do this would be to select a sample of the most mainstream template. Surely most of us have some experience of the mainstream. Either we're moving in the direction of it, or moving the other way. But generally we know something about it. Does the mainsteam template know who our elites are right now? Do you? Do people even here in this thread agree on this question? How many different views on this are here alone? It's a world of infinite infinities, bocktime multiverses, endless potentials and exponentially growing optimism...where to say otherwise is literally bad philosophy by definition. There is even the suggestion that elites cannot exist at all...not cohersive ones anyway..,that to say otherwise is bad philosophy too (i.e. Deutsch). Maybe that's a reason why no one knows. Because no such thing exists. Maybe the reason fewer and fewer people talk about such a thing as an incumbent elite. Fewer news references, fewer political references, fewer
Re: video of Andrei Linde hearing gravity wave news
Is it just me? I find things like this make me cry. I saw Alan Guth on the news earlier today, and I just ... well I almost teared up. This is someone who came out with this theory 30 years or more ago, it's like when Higgs was on TV the other year talking about the discovery of the Higgs particle... And then we had the supreme example of bathos from the presenter. And now, from the origins of the universe, we take you to sport. My 12 year old daughter looked at me and said, Why is sport news? On 18 March 2014 18:27, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Neat! Original Message Here is a Stanford video you might like to watch of Andrei Linde hearing the news about gravity waves. Enjoy. http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/17/5518346/first-evidence-gravitational-waves-supports-big-bang-inflation -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 2:36:25 AM UTC+11, spudb...@aol.com wrote: At some point, Pierz, one has to use one's senses. Quite so, but you were making a completely invalid leap of reasoning from your sense data - something along the lines of I see birds singing in the trees, so mass species extinction is humbug. That is obviously fallacious. The species extinction rate is estimated at 0.01% per annum by the WWF, so of course there is still a vast majority of species left, including those starlings out your window. 1-10K times background does not translate necessarily to a large proportion of observed species, especially in the near-monoculture inhabited by urban humans. That is just so blindingly clear and indisputable that you should really just retract that remark. This is part or the scientific endeavor as well. Observe, record, and measure, hopefully in common units, milibars, meters, kilograms, parsecs. But one must observe and try to make sense of things. Just as the oil companies say no, no, no, we pollute nothing, the environmentalists push for a common goal as well. One is driven by greed to lie, the other by a hunger for power-to save the world. Of the two sets of bastards, I have learned to mistrust the environmentalist even more so than the petro kings. Environmentalists get things wrong due to knee-jerk, party-line responses to issues - the objection to all nuclear power may be an example. But the motivation to preserve the life of all beings on this planet is always going to trump naked, short-term greed in my book when it comes to which bastard I trust. On another note, I think you have probably heard of the physical anthropological papers indicating that the paleo-south americans, did an excellent job of sustaining the rain forests, by simply doing what was in their interests. Damming streams using logs and boulders, and mud, removing natural dams in the uplands by digging using tree branches, crude shovels, their hands. I hear the (not-so) faint background anthem of right-wing ideology. Self-interest can be trusted to bring us all the best possible result. Let's all get out of the way and let the market save us all. You can bet the corporations will be building sea-walls if the ocean does start to rise dramatically, but the fact is the interests of corporations are way too short-term. CEOs care about this year's balance sheet, next year's, and maybe, just maybe the balance sheet in five years' time. Beyond their own retirement horizon they couldn't give a damn (or a dam). And corporations are enmeshed in the inertia of how things have always been done. Finally, with regard to saving the planet even at the expense of humanity, that's like talking about saving the ocean even at the expense of the fish. We are utterly dependent on the health of this planet. Certainly there are real tensions between environmental and human concerns - do we let community X clear-fell a certain forest? If we don't the community will suffer economically. But ultimately if we let every community log every forest at will, we will end up with an atmosphere that can't regenerate its own oxygen supply. Those Amerindians couldn't do too much damage through their self-interested actions precisely because they only had their hands and a few primitive tools. It's the power of modern technology that is the game changer. We can't be one-sidedly environmentalist and just ban all logging. Rather we need to work with the tension of these competing concerns and use all our human ingenuity to find technical and social solutions to these immensely challenging problems. The world is complex - no simple-minded ideology like trust the market is likely to hold the answer. Remember Paul Ehrlich the population biologist who wrote The Population Bomb, and made dramatic extinction scenarios? His scenarios seem to be stimulus-response in their inception/purpose. Get the lemmings to jump to the ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: video of Andrei Linde hearing gravity wave news
What impressed me is this: Let's just hope that it is not a trick 2014-03-18 9:17 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com: Is it just me? I find things like this make me cry. I saw Alan Guth on the news earlier today, and I just ... well I almost teared up. This is someone who came out with this theory 30 years or more ago, it's like when Higgs was on TV the other year talking about the discovery of the Higgs particle... And then we had the supreme example of bathos from the presenter. And now, from the origins of the universe, we take you to sport. My 12 year old daughter looked at me and said, Why is sport news? On 18 March 2014 18:27, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Neat! Original Message Here is a Stanford video you might like to watch of Andrei Linde hearing the news about gravity waves. Enjoy. http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/17/5518346/first-evidence-gravitational-waves-supports-big-bang-inflation -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 8:58 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization Personally, I am more in fear of nuclear war then I am about environmental devastation. This is not to say the natural world is not in big trouble because of human encroachment, but for Maslows hierarchy of needs, my fear is that humans disappear, and the weeds and rats and insects take over, and a great silence descends on the radio waves emanating from the spiral galaxy we inhabit. My fear is that so many greens seem attuned with die-off so as to preserve the natural order, which humans disrupt. This is not something this primate can tolerate. That last sentence doesn't even make sense. What can you possibly be trying to say - or perhaps imply - by stating that so many greens seem attuned with die-off to preserve the natural order? Are they somehow advocating for genocide in order to restore some kind of natural order? That is a potentially very serious charge you seem to be making. If you are going to slander a whole swath of society you had better have some pretty darn compelling evidence - and real factual evidence, not political argument - to back it up. -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 11:48 am Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civili sation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This NASA Earth Observatory released on http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/11/1/128864 1509988/This-NASA-Earth-Observato-006.jpg This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported http://www.sesync.org/ National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and http://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or
RE: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR You might also like to see Chris de Morsella's post. I'm not sure how to link to it but the title is First direct evidence of cosmic inflation Here is the link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317125850.htm On 18 March 2014 12:21, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: This is very cool. Gravitational waves and inflation in one feel swoop. (Well, a 3-year fell swoop.) On 18 March 2014 12:20, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2014-05 On 18 March 2014 11:24, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:21:20 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K Oh, thanks for saying thatI thought they meant gravity waves. Which - I thought - was a major prediction of Inflation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 6:16 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation The interesting question is which cosmogony models are ruled out by this. I think it rules out the d-brane collision models and maybe other string based models. Interesting. Could you be more specific why. is it because of the nature of the signature of these ripples in spacetime. Chris Brent On 3/17/2014 2:10 PM, LizR wrote: Inline images 1 http://images.sciencedaily.com/2014/03/140317125850-large.jpg Wow. That is so cool, the first (sort-of) direct detection of gravitational waves, as opposed to infering their existence from binary neutron stars' orbital decay. (This is kind of parallel to how the neutrino was discovered, come to think of it.) That pattern looks so regular, like atoms blown up to the size of galaxies... they say they spent 3 years checking the data for local sources and I can see why, that looks like a really clear signal. And evidence for inflation, too ... (can they deduce anything about how it happened, how long for etc, yet?) On 18 March 2014 09:26, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317125850.htm First direct evidence of cosmic inflation Date: March 17, 2014 Source: Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Summary: Almost 14 billion years ago, the universe we inhabit burst into existence in an extraordinary event that initiated the Big Bang. In the first fleeting fraction of a second, the universe expanded exponentially, stretching far beyond the view of our best telescopes. All this, of course, was just theory. Researchers now announce the first direct evidence for this cosmic inflation. Their data also represent the first images of gravitational waves, or ripples in space-time. These waves have been described as the first tremors of the Big Bang. Finally, the data confirm a deep connection between quantum mechanics and general relativity. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
On 3/18/2014 3:13 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb *Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 6:16 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation The interesting question is which cosmogony models are ruled out by this. I think it rules out the d-brane collision models and maybe other string based models. Interesting. Could you be more specific why... is it because of the nature of the signature of these ripples in spacetime. Chris The brane-collision model was invented to explain why there wasn't b-mode polarization in the CMB, in case there wasn't. It didn't require the inflationary period. But I'm told by my more erudite friend Lawrence Crowell that there are versions of the ekpyrotic model that will have inflationary bubbles and b-mode polarization - so I guess only the simpler collision model is ruled out. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
The black-hole big-bang theory hypothesized by Smolin and derived by Poplawski is also ruled out as it does not have a cosmic inflation phase. Richard On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 8:25 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/18/2014 3:13 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb *Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 6:16 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation The interesting question is which cosmogony models are ruled out by this. I think it rules out the d-brane collision models and maybe other string based models. Interesting. Could you be more specific why... is it because of the nature of the signature of these ripples in spacetime. Chris The brane-collision model was invented to explain why there wasn't b-mode polarization in the CMB, in case there wasn't. It didn't require the inflationary period. But I'm told by my more erudite friend Lawrence Crowell that there are versions of the ekpyrotic model that will have inflationary bubbles and b-mode polarization - so I guess only the simpler collision model is ruled out. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Entropy and curved spacetime
Jesse, somehow our conversation has bifurcated into 2 quite different topics, environmental concerns and fundamental physics, today I'll just talk about the physics. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I already addressed your confusion about the implications of black hole entropy in detail in my post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/hJ9bNWqoAzI/QTrL0CopHJ8Jwhich you never replied to. And I never responded to it because it was incoherent, I give the following exchange as a example: John: If there are 2 different states of the universe that could have produced things as they are now then there is no way to decide between them and history is unknowable (just as it is in the Game of Life) and the laws of physics are not reversible. Jesse: You think in classical statistical mechanics there can't be 2 different ways to get to a given *macrostate*??? If so you are badly confused. And I'm the one who is supposed to be confused??? There is not one drop of Quantum Mechanics or probability in the Game of Life, it is 100% classical mechanics, and yet there CAN be 2 or more ways to get to a given macrostate. It's 100% deterministic so if I show you a Game of Life pattern you can calculate what it's future evolution will be (there doesn't seem to be anything analogous to chaos in the Game) but you can't figure out it's history was, or at least not a unique history. Today the deepest understanding of entropy comes from the study of Black Holes. From: http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/bh/entropy_origin.html S [entropy ] is the log of the number of quantum mechanically distinct ways that the black hole could have been made, or information lost in the creation of the black hole Are you suggesting that this new deep understanding invalidates the older understanding of entropy as the number of microstates for a given macrostate, the one you yourself quoted in your last post? I am saying that Kip Thorn, one of the world's best physicists, wrote on page 446 of his book A Black Hole's entropy is the logarithm of the number of ways that the hole could have been made. And I'm saying that in classical physics a state can produce only one future state, but any given state can have been produced in more than one way, therefore the number of microstates in a Black Hole must equal to k times the number of states that made it where k is some constant integer. Therefore if Entropy is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates in a system then according to the laws of logarithms Entropy MUST also be proportional to the logarithm of the number of ways the system could have been produced. Assuming the unitary nature of quantum mechanics is preserved so that information is not lost when things fall in [into a Black Hole] That is quite a assumption, today it's one of the greatest controversies in physics and nobody knows if that assumption is valid; see Leonard Susskind's book The Black Hole Wars. the number of quantum microstates that any macrostate can have NOW must be the same as the number of initial quantum microstates in the PAST which would have led to the current macrostate, so the number of distinct ways it [the current macrostate] could have been made would be exactly the same as the number of distinct quantum microstates it could be in now So why in hell do you say Entropy is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates something can be in and still have the same macrostate, but it is not proportional to the logarithm of the number of ways the thing could have been produced? in practice, I think almost any real-world experiment you could do in an elevator in free fall in deep space wouldn't show any divergence from the predictions of special relativity that would be measurable by modern equipment. Not true. As far back as 1963 it was noticed that clocks tick slower on the first floor of the physics building at MIT than they do on the second floor, Special Relativity had no explanation for this but General Relativity did, clocks on the first floor were closer to the center of the Earth than those on the second floor and thus were in a stronger gravitational field and thus ticked slower. And today the standard GPS receiver in your car must synchronize it's internal clock with the clocks in 3 or more navigation satellites, to do this it must take into account some pretty exotic things; for example, the satellite is moving very fast so due to Special Relativity the satellite's clock will LOSE 7210 nanoseconds a day, but the satellite's clock is in a weaker gravitational field than the clock in your car because it is further from the Earth's center, so due to GENERAL RELATIVITY the clock will GAIN 45850 nanoseconds a day. Taking these 2 factors into account the satellite's clocks gains 45850 -7210 = 38,640 nanoseconds a day relative to the clock in your car. If your car GPS receiver
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
On 3/18/2014 8:14 AM, John Clark wrote: Jesse, somehow our conversation has bifurcated into 2 quite different topics, environmental concerns and fundamental physics, today I'll just talk about the physics. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com mailto:laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I already addressed your confusion about the implications of black hole entropy in detail in my post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/hJ9bNWqoAzI/QTrL0CopHJ8J which you never replied to. And I never responded to it because it was incoherent, I give the following exchange as a example: John: If there are 2 different states of the universe that could have produced things as they are now then there is no way to decide between them and history is unknowable (just as it is in the Game of Life) and the laws of physics are not reversible. Jesse: You think in classical statistical mechanics there can't be 2 different ways to get to a given *macrostate*??? If so you are badly confused. And I'm the one who is supposed to be confused??? There is not one drop of Quantum Mechanics or probability in the Game of Life, it is 100% classical mechanics, and yet there CAN be 2 or more ways to get to a given macrostate. It's 100% deterministic so if I show you a Game of Life pattern you can calculate what it's future evolution will be (there doesn't seem to be anything analogous to chaos in the Game) but you can't figure out it's history was, or at least not a unique history. Today the deepest understanding of entropy comes from the study of Black Holes. From: http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/bh/entropy_origin.html http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/%7Eluca/Topics/bh/entropy_origin.html S [entropy ] is the log of the number of quantum mechanically distinct ways that the black hole could have been made, or information lost in the creation of the black hole Are you suggesting that this new deep understanding invalidates the older understanding of entropy as the number of microstates for a given macrostate, the one you yourself quoted in your last post? I am saying that Kip Thorn, one of the world's best physicists, wrote on page 446 of his book A Black Hole's entropy is the logarithm of the number of ways that the hole could have been made. And I'm saying that in classical physics a state can produce only one future state, but any given state can have been produced in more than one way, therefore the number of microstates in a Black Hole must equal to k times the number of states that made it where k is some constant integer. Therefore if Entropy is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates in a system then according to the laws of logarithms Entropy MUST also be proportional to the logarithm of the number of ways the system could have been produced. But Kip is speaking loosely. If you look at the original paper with Zurek http://journals.aps.org.proxy.library.ucsb.edu:2048/prl/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.54.2171 you see that they are counting up the number of states by imagining adding quanta of energy as small as possible at each step to building up a black hole. But this is just a way to aid the counting, the result has no dependence on the imagined order. It's just a way to calculate the number of internal states consistent with the macro-states of the no-hair theorem. Assuming the unitary nature of quantum mechanics is preserved so that information is not lost when things fall in [into a Black Hole] That is quite a assumption, today it's one of the greatest controversies in physics and nobody knows if that assumption is valid; see Leonard Susskind's book The Black Hole Wars. the number of quantum microstates that any macrostate can have NOW must be the same as the number of initial quantum microstates in the PAST which would have led to the current macrostate, so the number of distinct ways it [the current macrostate] could have been made would be exactly the same as the number of distinct quantum microstates it could be in now So why in hell do you say Entropy is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates something can be in and still have the same macrostate, but it is not proportional to the logarithm of the number of ways the thing could have been produced? in practice, I think almost any real-world experiment you could do in an elevator in free fall in deep space wouldn't show any divergence from the predictions of special relativity that would be measurable by modern equipment. Not true. As far back as 1963 it was noticed that clocks tick slower on the first floor of the physics building at MIT than they do on the second floor, Special Relativity had no explanation for this but General Relativity did, clocks on the first floor were closer to the
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Why is it that the Koch's figure so highly in your focus of vilification, but George Soros dies not? Why is political meddling by one side gets targeted but the other doesn't. You seem to have a decided preference for certain billionaires, rather then have a mistrust of all. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:56 pm Subject: RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 8:48 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. I suppose you believe that the only climate change science is being done by the Heritage Foundation and other such Koch brother funded “think tanks”? If you have some actual science based reason to criticize this study, by all means share it with us. But you don’t do you – you have not even bothered to read it now have you? Be honest. Your rebuttal of the NASA study is sorely lacking in scientific rigor, preferring instead to rely on a series of colorful adjectives to present your case. If you are such a lover of science then use science and scientific data, and arguments based on clear deductions from that data to try to make your hypothesis. As it is all you have shared is a stale retreaded Tea Party rant; frankly its weak. Worn out and weak. Chris Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Its not about my ideology, its about your ideology, actually. I am not here to sell my deep suspicions that would never be accepted. Ideology is like a faith, or rather a faith movement. No solutions offered or even desired, simply obedience to the ruling class. Nice. -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 7:37 pm Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization On 18 March 2014 05:01, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. That is exactly how I feel about it. However I suspect that your rants about how [insert special interest group here] are a bunch of [insert despised political group here] planning to create a [insert feared political system here] may not have helped people appreciate that this is your position. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
Breaking your ideas down, I do still hold that the figure cited as 10,000 is imprecise. It seems as a selling point. But with a focus on accurate measures, and I say that whats been presented is not accurate. However, it could even be worse than 10,000. As I have tried to get environmentalists here, to cite ideas on remediation, sans government control. Why? Because then it becomes an excuse to rule us more and more, on the pretense of fixing a problem. So, I try to focus on technology and ask what do you want to do, what technology? I get suspicious when, if I receive any response at all, its vague, and indistinct. I would fix issues with tech, rather than having bureaucratic fascists rule us all, Few on this list agree with this approach. They want everything under government control, as long as they agree with the dictator. When it becomes apparent that people are after the control of others, it needs to be resisted. The market is closer to human freedom then government rule, but it is not to be trusted completely. Again, technology first please, -Original Message- From: Pierz pier...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 5:19 am Subject: Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 2:36:25 AM UTC+11, spudb...@aol.com wrote: At some point, Pierz, one has to use one's senses. Quite so, but you were making a completely invalid leap of reasoning from your sense data - something along the lines of I see birds singing in the trees, so mass species extinction is humbug. That is obviously fallacious. The species extinction rate is estimated at 0.01% per annum by the WWF, so of course there is still a vast majority of species left, including those starlings out your window. 1-10K times background does not translate necessarily to a large proportion of observed species, especially in the near-monoculture inhabited by urban humans. That is just so blindingly clear and indisputable that you should really just retract that remark. This is part or the scientific endeavor as well. Observe, record, and measure, hopefully in common units, milibars, meters, kilograms, parsecs. But one must observe and try to make sense of things. Just as the oil companies say no, no, no, we pollute nothing, the environmentalists push for a common goal as well. One is driven by greed to lie, the other by a hunger for power-to save the world. Of the two sets of bastards, I have learned to mistrust the environmentalist even more so than the petro kings. Environmentalists get things wrong due to knee-jerk, party-line responses to issues - the objection to all nuclear power may be an example. But the motivation to preserve the life of all beings on this planet is always going to trump naked, short-term greed in my book when it comes to which bastard I trust. On another note, I think you have probably heard of the physical anthropological papers indicating that the paleo-south americans, did an excellent job of sustaining the rain forests, by simply doing what was in their interests. Damming streams using logs and boulders, and mud, removing natural dams in the uplands by digging using tree branches, crude shovels, their hands. I hear the (not-so) faint background anthem of right-wing ideology. Self-interest can be trusted to bring us all the best possible result. Let's all get out of the way and let the market save us all. You can bet the corporations will be building sea-walls if the ocean does start to rise dramatically, but the fact is the interests of corporations are way too short-term. CEOs care about this year's balance sheet, next year's, and maybe, just maybe the balance sheet in five years' time. Beyond their own retirement horizon they couldn't give a damn (or a dam). And corporations are enmeshed in the inertia of how things have always been done. Finally, with regard to saving the planet even at the expense of humanity, that's like talking about saving the ocean even at the expense of the fish. We are utterly dependent on the health of this planet. Certainly there are real tensions between environmental and human concerns - do we let community X clear-fell a certain forest? If we don't the community will suffer economically. But ultimately if we let every community log every forest at will, we will end up with an atmosphere that can't regenerate its own oxygen supply. Those Amerindians couldn't do too much damage through their self-interested actions precisely because they only had their hands and a few primitive tools. It's the power of modern technology that is the game changer. We can't be one-sidedly environmentalist and just ban all logging. Rather we need to work with the tension of these competing concerns and use all our human ingenuity to find technical and social solutions to these immensely challenging problems. The world is complex -
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Dear Hal Ruhl, it has been for long since we had our last exchangeI clicked the URL and found mostly agreeable general ideas (with my peculiar thoughts in frequent questioning). *May I ask WHAT kind of LIFE are you talking about?* I believe our Terresstrial 'bio' is only a segment. Then again evolution etc. are not within my agnostic framework of worldview, so your explanation would find fertile grounds. Good to hear from you again John Mikes oldtimer On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Hal Ruhl halr...@alum.syracuse.edu wrote: Hi everyone Below is a URL from one of my posts on the subject of life being inherently self destructive which I believe it to be. It provides my curent argument on the subject. I think such discussion is relevant to the main history of this group's threads because if life is indeed always inherently self destructive wherever it appears in any allowed universe then why is there such a down select in the types of allowed universes. - *http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/*http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/ Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
Yes, if you have the exact present quantum state and you're assuming the normal quantum rules for continuous wavefunction evolution, you can determine the past quantum state. The answer might change if you assume that there's an objective physical reality to the collapse of wavefunction with measurement, distinct from the normal wavefunction evolution rules. Jesse On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 5:33 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
OK, thanks. PS I realise that wavefunction collapse involves information loss and creates a fundamental time asymmetry, but I was under the impression that's the only place in QM that those things can occur - hence Stephen Hawking famously losing a bet (I thnk the prize was an encyclopaedia). So it's nice to have that view confirmed by someone who knows a lot more about the subject than I ever will. On 19 March 2014 10:52, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, if you have the exact present quantum state and you're assuming the normal quantum rules for continuous wavefunction evolution, you can determine the past quantum state. The answer might change if you assume that there's an objective physical reality to the collapse of wavefunction with measurement, distinct from the normal wavefunction evolution rules. Jesse On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 5:33 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Speaking of 1984 http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/22635-focus-former-top-nsa-official-qwe-are-now-in-a-police-stateq -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
On 19 March 2014 08:46, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Breaking your ideas down, I do still hold that the figure cited as 10,000 is imprecise. It seems as a selling point. But with a focus on accurate measures, and I say that whats been presented is not accurate. However, it could even be worse than 10,000. As I have tried to get environmentalists here, to cite ideas on remediation, sans government control. Why? Because then it becomes an excuse to rule us more and more, on the pretense of fixing a problem. So, I try to focus on technology and ask what do you want to do, what technology? I get suspicious when, if I receive any response at all, its vague, and indistinct. I would fix issues with tech, rather than having bureaucratic fascists rule us all, Few on this list agree with this approach. They want everything under government control, as long as they agree with the dictator. When it becomes apparent that people are after the control of others, it needs to be resisted. The market is closer to human freedom then government rule, but it is not to be trusted completely. Again, technology first please, Technology is being used to place almost everything under government control right now. At the risk of repeating myself... http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/22635-focus-former-top-nsa-official-qwe-are-now-in-a-police-stateq -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the same effect. Brent On 3/18/2014 2:52 PM, Jesse Mazer wrote: Yes, if you have the exact present quantum state and you're assuming the normal quantum rules for continuous wavefunction evolution, you can determine the past quantum state. The answer might change if you assume that there's an objective physical reality to the collapse of wavefunction with measurement, distinct from the normal wavefunction evolution rules. Jesse On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 5:33 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Hi John: It is a distinct pleasure to hear from you. To answer your question I think the narrowest characterization of the type of life I talk about is that it is one of the possible processes within a universe that if implemented increase the entropy of that universe. Further all such processes will be implemented in any universe in which they are possible. Since entropy has a fixed maximum in a closed system (a universe) then life must enable its own extinction. Yours Hal On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:23:58 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: Dear Hal Ruhl, it has been for long since we had our last exchangeI clicked the URL and found mostly agreeable general ideas (with my peculiar thoughts in frequent questioning). *May I ask WHAT kind of LIFE are you talking about?* I believe our Terresstrial 'bio' is only a segment. Then again evolution etc. are not within my agnostic framework of worldview, so your explanation would find fertile grounds. Good to hear from you again John Mikes oldtimer On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Hal Ruhl hal...@alum.syracuse.edujavascript: wrote: Hi everyone Below is a URL from one of my posts on the subject of life being inherently self destructive which I believe it to be. It provides my curent argument on the subject. I think such discussion is relevant to the main history of this group's threads because if life is indeed always inherently self destructive wherever it appears in any allowed universe then why is there such a down select in the types of allowed universes. - *http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/*http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/ Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the same effect. I was only asking about the theoretical possibility, given unrealistically perfect information about the state of the system. To put it another way, in the Game of Life, even with perfect information, you can't trace the state of the system backwards because it loses information. So even the laws of physics couldn't work backwards in a universe based on the GOL. QM, I'm informed, doesn't lose information, so (very much in theory) you could work backwards - or (less in theory) the laws of physics could. I wasn't asking whether I could build a chronoscope and watch the past happening on TV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
On 3/18/2014 4:12 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 08:46, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Breaking your ideas down, I do still hold that the figure cited as 10,000 is imprecise. It seems as a selling point. But with a focus on accurate measures, and I say that whats been presented is not accurate. However, it could even be worse than 10,000. As I have tried to get environmentalists here, to cite ideas on remediation, sans government control. Why? Because then it becomes an excuse to rule us more and more, on the pretense of fixing a problem. It's not an *excuse* nor a *pretense* because there is no plausible way that the problem will be addressed without government action. When there is an air pollutant that it costs money to avoid or remove (like automobile exhaust pollutants) it is only a *disadvantage* to individuals and enterprises to spend their money to clean up. But the government can provide incentives to make cleaner energy production cheaper. This is only forcing costs that had been externalized to be internalized. There is also the development of technologies which are too expensive, too riskly, or too likely to be stopped by litigation for any private organization to develop. LFTRs are the obvious example, but also various CO2 sequestering schemes and insolation reduction by aerosols. So, I try to focus on technology and ask what do you want to do, what technology? I get suspicious when, if I receive any response at all, its vague, and indistinct. I would fix issues with tech, But technology development takes money and sometimes protection. rather than having bureaucratic fascists rule us all, Few on this list agree with this approach. Few agree with your ridiculous equation of all bureaucrats with fascists and all government programs with communism. They want everything under government control, as long as they agree with the dictator. When it becomes apparent that people are after the control of others, it needs to be resisted. The market is closer to human freedom then government rule, but it is not to be trusted completely. Again, technology first please, The market means you can have as much freedom as you can pay for. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On 3/18/2014 4:52 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi John: It is a distinct pleasure to hear from you. To answer your question I think the narrowest characterization of the type of life I talk about is that it is one of the possible processes within a universe that if implemented increase the entropy of that universe. But every process defined at the macro level does that - so it's not much of a definition. I'd define life as a process in which systems reproduce, with variation, fast enough that natural selection can act to produce evolution. Further all such processes will be implemented in any universe in which they are possible. Since entropy has a fixed maximum in a closed system (a universe) But that's not true. An expanding universe in which maximum entropy is proportional to the area of the hubble sphere doesn't have a fixed maximum. And on a more practical level we are many orders of magnitude from the maximum. then life must enable its own extinction. Enable is vague. All of life on Earth would be wiped out by a nearby gamma-ray burster; but life on Earth did nothing to enable that. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On 19 March 2014 12:52, Hal Ruhl halr...@alum.syracuse.edu wrote: To answer your question I think the narrowest characterization of the type of life I talk about is that it is one of the possible processes within a universe that if implemented increase the entropy of that universe. Further all such processes will be implemented in any universe in which they are possible. Since entropy has a fixed maximum in a closed system (a universe) then life must enable its own extinction. I'm told (mainly by PCW Davies iirc) that the maximum entropy in an expanding universe increases indefinitely. This is how a big bang fireball that was more or less at thermodynamic equilibrium could turn into a universe full of dissipative systems. This may not however prevent life from enabling its own extinction (at least in the very, very, very long run) - although I'd say at the present epoch it is mainly stars that are enabling its extinction. (Along with its existence, too, of course.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
On 19 March 2014 13:27, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: The market means you can have as much freedom as you can pay for. Nicely put. I may put that in my collection of quotes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the same effect. I was only asking about the theoretical possibility, given unrealistically perfect information about the state of the system. The universe (assuming unitary QM) is reversible. In fact from the standpoint of QM there is no arrow of time - it's deterministic, just like Laplace's universe. So, as always, when the word possibility is used there has to be some context. To *calculate* a history of the universe from it's present state would require knowing its *complete* present state, including your mental state. Is that theoretically possible? I think it involves a paradox of self-reference. To put it another way, in the Game of Life, even with perfect information, you can't trace the state of the system backwards because it loses information. So even the laws of physics couldn't work backwards in a universe based on the GOL. QM, I'm informed, doesn't lose information, so (very much in theory) you could work backwards - or (less in theory) the laws of physics could. Yes the universe doesn't lose information like the GoL. But relative to any point it loses information across spacetime horizons. So there's no way to gather that information up into a calculation unless you have some God's eye view from outside the universe, in which case you could see the past anyway. There's a couple of nice papers about this by Yasunori Nomura: arXiv:1205.267v2 is a popular exposition and arXiv:1205.5550v2 is a more technical paper. Brent I wasn't asking whether I could build a chronoscope and watch the past happening on TV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 On 19 March 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the same effect. I was only asking about the theoretical possibility, given unrealistically perfect information about the state of the system. The universe (assuming unitary QM) is reversible. In fact from the standpoint of QM there is no arrow of time - it's deterministic, just like Laplace's universe. So, as always, when the word possibility is used there has to be some context. To *calculate* a history of the universe from it's present state would require knowing its *complete* present state, including your mental state. Is that theoretically possible? I think it involves a paradox of self-reference. To put it another way, in the Game of Life, even with perfect information, you can't trace the state of the system backwards because it loses information. So even the laws of physics couldn't work backwards in a universe based on the GOL. QM, I'm informed, doesn't lose information, so (very much in theory) you could work backwards - or (less in theory) the laws of physics could. Yes the universe doesn't lose information like the GoL. But relative to any point it loses information across spacetime horizons. So there's no way to gather that information up into a calculation unless you have some God's eye view from outside the universe, in which case you could see the past anyway. There's a couple of nice papers about this by Yasunori Nomura: arXiv:1205.267v2 is a popular exposition and arXiv:1205.5550v2 is a more technical paper. Brent I wasn't asking whether I could build a chronoscope and watch the past happening on TV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
On 3/18/2014 6:13 PM, LizR wrote: Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 Yep, that's it. Sorry, I left a digit off. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Entropy and curved spacetime
On 19 March 2014 14:16, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/18/2014 6:13 PM, LizR wrote: Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 Yep, that's it. Sorry, I left a digit off. Odd. According to QM that should be impossible... (Sorry :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 02:40:16PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 14:27, Hal Ruhl halr...@alum.syracuse.edu wrote: Hi Liz: Hi Hal The physics that I learned holds that the energy in a universe is constant. Therefore entropy in such a universe can not exceed 100% of this energy being unable to do work. That seems a max limit to me. The increase in the entropy ceiling is caused by expansion of the universe. This effectively increases the potential energy of its constituents. This would still reach some maximum in a universe without dark energy, however, note that the vacuum energy thought to be accelerating the expansion of the universe is constant per unit volume, and so the amount of it increases indefinitely in an expanding universe. Although it may not be harnessable by life or other entropic systems. More to the point, our best cosmology models give a value of precisely zero for the total mass-energy of the universe. This is because the mass-energy we see is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational potential energy. So an expanding universe should give rise to increasing maximum entropy, but the total energy remains constant (at zero). As for what happens to the free energy (stuff available for work), its a bit more complicated, but it appears that processes reducing the free energy (or increasing the entropy, as its the same thing) are not currently keeping up with the increase in maximum entropy caused by an expanding universe. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Why is it that the Koch's figure so highly in your focus of vilification, but George Soros dies not? Why is political meddling by one side gets targeted but the other doesn't. You seem to have a decided preference for certain billionaires, rather then have a mistrust of all. The Koch brothers are the principal financiers of the climate change skeptic think tanks – it seems clear they are motivated to do so by a desire to protect the future valuation of their considerable coal reserves.. a major component of their vast holdings. It is not the Koch brothers per se, but what they are backing and funding and how they are seeking to influence public policy in ways I oppose and that I feel are highly detrimental to our future survivability as a species and as a culture. When have I ever voiced support for George Soros, since you accuse me of doing so? Show me a single example. You can’t because I haven’t. There are a many billionaires I do not mention specifically because they are not funding a astroturf movement – that is organized similar to and in fact staffed by many of the same propagandists who worked so hard for so long to discredit the science linking tobacco use and the many diseases now known to be caused or exacerbated by it. You say so many things without backing them up with facts. Please show me some examples of my alleged support for Soros; if you cannot I wonder if you have the courage to admit your error. Chris -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:56 pm Subject: RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 8:48 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. I suppose you believe that the only climate change science is being done by the Heritage Foundation and other such Koch brother funded “think tanks”? If you have some actual science based reason to criticize this study, by all means share it with us. But you don’t do you – you have not even bothered to read it now have you? Be honest. Your rebuttal of the NASA study is sorely lacking in scientific rigor, preferring instead to rely on a series of colorful adjectives to present your case. If you are such a lover of science then use science and scientific data, and arguments based on clear deductions from that data to try to make your hypothesis. As it is all you have shared is a stale retreaded Tea Party rant; frankly its weak. Worn out and weak. Chris Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This NASA Earth Observatory released on http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/11/1/1288641509988/This-NASA-Earth-Observato-006.jpg This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National
