Re: Vacuum energy

[Alan Grayson]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 12:24:38 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 4:52:11 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:56:05 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:52:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:48:41 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:43:22 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 3:48:24 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:



 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 2:39:45 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson 
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:19:52 AM UTC-6, Lawrence 
> Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:21:30 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-6, John Clark 
>>> wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:39 AM Alan Grayson <
 agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

 > Could it be the case that Casimir plates attract each other 
> due to electrostatic forces and not vacuum energy? 


 Of course not! Don't you thing getting rid of electrostatic 
 forces would be the very first thing any even halfway competent 
 experimental scientists would think of before he even dreamed of 
 performing 
 such a super delicate experiment? 

  John K Clark 

>>>
>>> Experiments done on the space shuttle and in Germany (where free 
>>> fall is simulated) have shown that dust particles accumulate due to 
>>> electrostatic forces, thus changing the model for how planets 
>>> formed. And 
>>> if you read the excerpt from the Wiki article I posted, MIT 
>>> physicists, in 
>>> 1997 IIRC, were able to explain the Casimir effect without 
>>> appealing to 
>>> vacuum energy. AG
>>>
>>
>> If the two Casimir plates are grounded there will be no 
>> electrostatic potential between them.  Elementary electricity.
>>
>> LC
>>
>
> I'm not sure how the MIT physicist did the experiment. I just know 
> the claim; that he accounted for the forces on the plates without 
> need of 
> appealing to vacuum energy. I'll see if I can find the paper and post 
> it. 
> AG 
>

 Try this, by another physicist:
 Proof that Casimir force does not originate from vacuum energy
 https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04143  AG

>>>
>>> There has to be something wrong. For one he says the EM Hamiltonian 
>>> commutes with the matter Hamiltonian, and so there is no interaction 
>>> between the EM field and matter. This would be the case if the matter 
>>> possesses no charges. There can be two Hamiltonians that commute with 
>>> each 
>>> other, and it is the case the two sectors are independent. However, 
>>> there 
>>> is the interaction H_i = ∫d^4x j*A that the two operators separately do 
>>> not 
>>> have involution with. This is where the interaction happens. So I have 
>>> suspicions about this claim.
>>>
>>> LC 
>>>
>>
>> Then try this:   The Casimir Effect and the Quantum Vacuum   
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503158  AG
>>
>
> The above is authored by Robert L. Jaffe, another heavy dude!  
> https://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/jaffe_robert.html   AG
>


 Jaffe is more in line. He is just demonstrating how one gets the 
 Casimir effect even if one removes the vacuum with procedures such as 
 normal ordering.

 LC 

>>>
>>> Which suggests the vacuum energy has nothing to do with the Casimir 
>>> effect (if you get the same result by removing the vacuum!) AG
>>>
>>
>> There is this procedure called normal ordering where raising operators 
>> a^† are pushed to the left and lowering a operators are pushed to the 
>> right. This by hand removes the [a,a^†] commutator responsible for the zero 
>> point energy. The harmonic oscillator Hamiltonian is H = ½(a^†a + aa^†} 
>> and to add and substract ½a^†a gives H = a^†a +½ [a,a^†]. Normal 
>> ordering removes that commutator term, which eliminates the zero point 
>> energy. This is alright because the ZPE does not interact with anything in 
>> this free field theory.
>>
>> The thing is this commutator by itself does not produce the Casimir 
>> effect anyway. It is the term H_i = *℘*∙*A* or in a relativis

Re: Crash course on the Fall of Rome

[Alan Grayson]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 11:51:47 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 6:16:47 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:38:27 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:21:03 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

 On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 4:59:39 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
> I believe the Roman army was well paid, had a prestigious status in 
> society, and had superior tactics in battle, using superior weapons, and 
> perhaps most important was able to fight as a unit. But as Rome expanded 
> it 
> didn't do a great job in assimilating "the barbarians". Over time they 
> became incorporated in the Roman army, acquired its weapons, and perhaps 
> most important learned its tactical methods for fighting as a unit. Thus, 
> over time, the Roman army lost its advantage, which led to the demise of 
> the Empire. How correct is my thesis? TIA, AG
>

 There are a number of reasons the Roman Empire fell. I think probably 
 the biggest reason is with the establishment of Christianity as the state 
 religion of the empire, the cultural paradigm of the empire became 
 irrelevant. The Orphic cultural and mystical basis of the classical world 
 from the time of Homer through the philosophy of Plotinus was largely 
 abandoned. This left the culture without strong roots, and the new 
 Christian civilization and power based on the Vatican rendered the empire 
 of little importance. 

>>>
>>> You make many excellent points in this post, but what seems vague, to me 
>>> at least, is the role of classical world culture in giving the Empire a 
>>> mission and reason for existence.
>>>
>>
>> The Constitution of the US is a civilized basis for the country. Suppose 
>> people stopped believing in it. This is in some sense as you might notice 
>> happening, except the 2nd Amendment, for many people these days. Can the US 
>> of A continue to exist, at least as we have known it? 
>>
>> Similarly, when the culture of a society is lost the fabric or binding 
>> collective mental glue of that society is lost. With Rome the Orphic 
>> cultural and social structure of the society was replaced with this 
>> religion that advocated the world was ending soon, there was no purpose in 
>> working to change the material world and holiness was found in 
>> contemplative prayer and life in a monastery, St, Jerome even noted with 
>> glee how the temples and building of Rome and the Pantheon were falling 
>> apart.
>>
>> LC
>>
>
> It's easy to see that Christianity would sap the desire for empire if the 
> Kingdom of God was "at hand". But did the classical Orphic culture actually 
> stimulate the desire or rationale for empire? What was the content and 
> ideology of that culture? AG
>

Maybe the ultimate explanation for the fall of the Roman Empire is that the 
Orphic culture didn't have any *worldly* transcendental content, such as 
building a "great society". So with the advent of Christianity, rampant 
corruption, and the debasement of its currency, it just faded away. AG

The coins or denominations of the Roman Denarius were in the Republic and 
 early Empire periods forged in gold and silver. This began to change as 
 the 
 Roman gold mines in Spain and elsewhere began to deplete out. Then 
 eventually the silver mines became less productive, and the coins were 
 made 
 in copper and even more base metals. The Romans did not develop new mining 
 techniques and the Roman money became less valuable. This lead to problems 
 with debasement and inflation that by the 4th century went rampant. This 
 weakened the empire.

 The barbarians were not really that numerous. The waves of invasions 
 from 410 to 476 of Visigoths and Ostrogoths involved at most a few 10 
 thousands. The Roman legions were far better disciplined and could have 
 handled this. The problem was there was rampant corruption. In fact the 
 reason for the upheaval with the Goths along the Danube was due to 
 corruption, and this lead to the defeat of the Eastern Roman legions and 
 the death of the E. Emperor Valens at Adrianople in 398 or so. The E. 
 Roman 
 Empire paid the Goths off to "Go West Young Men," and so they directed 
 themselves there. Still the problem could have been managed, but 
 corruption 
 has lead to a defeat of moral in the legions. Pay to soldiers, the term 
 salary (root word sal = salt) came from the payment of Roman soldiers, had 
 been withheld. The Roman legions were firmed up by Stilicho, and 
 corruption 
 abated for a while, but the die were cast. The simple fact is the legions 
 largely let the Goths in. The only barbarian group they rallied against 
 were the Huns under Attila, where the Goths were enlisted as allies.

 Finall

Re: Vacuum energy

[Alan Grayson]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 4:52:11 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:56:05 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:52:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:48:41 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:



 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:43:22 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 3:48:24 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 2:39:45 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:



 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:19:52 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
 wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:21:30 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-6, John Clark 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:39 AM Alan Grayson <
>>> agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Could it be the case that Casimir plates attract each other 
 due to electrostatic forces and not vacuum energy? 
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course not! Don't you thing getting rid of electrostatic 
>>> forces would be the very first thing any even halfway competent 
>>> experimental scientists would think of before he even dreamed of 
>>> performing 
>>> such a super delicate experiment? 
>>>
>>>  John K Clark 
>>>
>>
>> Experiments done on the space shuttle and in Germany (where free 
>> fall is simulated) have shown that dust particles accumulate due to 
>> electrostatic forces, thus changing the model for how planets 
>> formed. And 
>> if you read the excerpt from the Wiki article I posted, MIT 
>> physicists, in 
>> 1997 IIRC, were able to explain the Casimir effect without appealing 
>> to 
>> vacuum energy. AG
>>
>
> If the two Casimir plates are grounded there will be no 
> electrostatic potential between them.  Elementary electricity.
>
> LC
>

 I'm not sure how the MIT physicist did the experiment. I just know 
 the claim; that he accounted for the forces on the plates without need 
 of 
 appealing to vacuum energy. I'll see if I can find the paper and post 
 it. 
 AG 

>>>
>>> Try this, by another physicist:
>>> Proof that Casimir force does not originate from vacuum energy
>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04143  AG
>>>
>>
>> There has to be something wrong. For one he says the EM Hamiltonian 
>> commutes with the matter Hamiltonian, and so there is no interaction 
>> between the EM field and matter. This would be the case if the matter 
>> possesses no charges. There can be two Hamiltonians that commute with 
>> each 
>> other, and it is the case the two sectors are independent. However, 
>> there 
>> is the interaction H_i = ∫d^4x j*A that the two operators separately do 
>> not 
>> have involution with. This is where the interaction happens. So I have 
>> suspicions about this claim.
>>
>> LC 
>>
>
> Then try this:   The Casimir Effect and the Quantum Vacuum   
> https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503158  AG
>

 The above is authored by Robert L. Jaffe, another heavy dude!  
 https://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/jaffe_robert.html   AG

>>>
>>>
>>> Jaffe is more in line. He is just demonstrating how one gets the Casimir 
>>> effect even if one removes the vacuum with procedures such as normal 
>>> ordering.
>>>
>>> LC 
>>>
>>
>> Which suggests the vacuum energy has nothing to do with the Casimir 
>> effect (if you get the same result by removing the vacuum!) AG
>>
>
> There is this procedure called normal ordering where raising operators a^† 
> are pushed to the left and lowering a operators are pushed to the right. 
> This by hand removes the [a,a^†] commutator responsible for the zero point 
> energy. The harmonic oscillator Hamiltonian is H = ½(a^†a + aa^†} and to 
> add and substract ½a^†a gives H = a^†a +½ [a,a^†]. Normal ordering 
> removes that commutator term, which eliminates the zero point energy. This 
> is alright because the ZPE does not interact with anything in this free 
> field theory.
>
> The thing is this commutator by itself does not produce the Casimir effect 
> anyway. It is the term H_i = *℘*∙*A* or in a relativistic setting ∫d^4x 
> *j*∙*A* where we can start to see this physics. With the first term the 
> *℘* is the dipole moment of an atom *℘* = *p*(σ_+ + σ_-), which in this 
> reduce theory is two states toggled by the σ

Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

So, I have pondered that after countless ages and cycles, Turok/Steinhardt 
Buddha, Brahma, out of thermodynamic instabilities, a Boltzmann Brain finally 
emerges. Creates his or her own history and the universe flows forth. Is this 
true? [SHRUG!] I don't know but it seems conjecturally, tasty Bruno, at least 
to me. 


-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 23, 2020 6:49 am
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

Samiya,
That is what you get close to when believing in the collapse of the wave in 
Quantum Mechanics. That’s why some say, like Belinfante (working on hidden 
variable QM),  QM implies a God or a Multiverse. The notion of God 
unfortunately cannot be used in this context, unless God itself is explained, 
but by definition it can’t. 
With mechanism things are simpler, there is the arithmetical reality, and the 
multiverse appearance is explained by the many computational histories, 
consciousness is explained by a semantic sort of fixed point, and the 
appearance of a unique universal history is explained by human hubris. As the 
mechanist explanation is testable, let us continue the test, but I would say 
that materialism (the belief in ontological matter) is already refuted, which 
explains why the most serious materialist try to get rid of consciousness.
Bruno



On 22 Apr 2020, at 14:37, Samiya Illias  wrote:


The Observer & The Existence of Reality 
A Religious Perspective 
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-observer-existence-of-reality.html
 
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Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I was just pondering that sure perks, privileges, explanations, but if you are 
given permission, what would you like to do or learn? Sure, with holy limits 
and all, but unbound by time, energy, money? Most people, even kuffars, would 
like to catch up with family and friend of course, but assuming you get the 
welcome, what things? 


-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Thu, Apr 23, 2020 12:53 am
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He 
will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges. 
He didn’t create this world without purpose, I’m sure there is a greater 
purpose to our eternal life! 

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> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you 
> are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?

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Re: MWI and time

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 2:21:48 PM UTC-5, Eva wrote:
>
> Hello guys :) what do you think about time in many world interpretation?
> If there is one changless global wave function, than why we have change at 
> all?
>
> All these states, different branches which emerge or are incribed in 
> global wave, are not changless - we experience change.
>
> Why?
>
> Is it because they are relative? 
>
> If so, everything which is relative is transitory?
>

In MWI there is the global wave function, and with respect to any 
observer's measurement outcome this is manifested by a projector that 
reduces observed state of the quantum system. The time any observer records 
on their clock would then be the same as the global time. Things only get a 
bit odd when we consider different eigen-branching of the system are in 
different regions of gravity so they have different proper times. 

LC 

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MWI and time

[Eva]

Hello guys :) what do you think about time in many world interpretation?
If there is one changless global wave function, than why we have change at all?

All these states, different branches which emerge or are incribed in global 
wave, are not changless - we experience change.

Why?

Is it because they are relative? 

If so, everything which is relative is transitory?

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Re: Vacuum energy

[John Clark]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:19 PM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the two Casimir plates are grounded there will be no electrostatic
> potential between them.  Elementary electricity.
>

Yes, and even if the plates were electrically charged they'd have the same
charge, so they'd repel each other, but the Casimir effect attracts so if
anything electrostatics would tend to cause an experimenter to
underestimate the strength of the casimir effect not produce it.

John K Clark

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Re: Vacuum energy

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:56:05 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:52:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 7:48:41 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:43:22 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:



 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
 wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 3:48:24 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 2:39:45 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:19:52 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
>>> wrote:

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:21:30 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson 
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:39 AM Alan Grayson  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Could it be the case that Casimir plates attract each other 
>>> due to electrostatic forces and not vacuum energy? 
>>
>>
>> Of course not! Don't you thing getting rid of electrostatic 
>> forces would be the very first thing any even halfway competent 
>> experimental scientists would think of before he even dreamed of 
>> performing 
>> such a super delicate experiment? 
>>
>>  John K Clark 
>>
>
> Experiments done on the space shuttle and in Germany (where free 
> fall is simulated) have shown that dust particles accumulate due to 
> electrostatic forces, thus changing the model for how planets formed. 
> And 
> if you read the excerpt from the Wiki article I posted, MIT 
> physicists, in 
> 1997 IIRC, were able to explain the Casimir effect without appealing 
> to 
> vacuum energy. AG
>

 If the two Casimir plates are grounded there will be no 
 electrostatic potential between them.  Elementary electricity.

 LC

>>>
>>> I'm not sure how the MIT physicist did the experiment. I just know 
>>> the claim; that he accounted for the forces on the plates without need 
>>> of 
>>> appealing to vacuum energy. I'll see if I can find the paper and post 
>>> it. 
>>> AG 
>>>
>>
>> Try this, by another physicist:
>> Proof that Casimir force does not originate from vacuum energy
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04143  AG
>>
>
> There has to be something wrong. For one he says the EM Hamiltonian 
> commutes with the matter Hamiltonian, and so there is no interaction 
> between the EM field and matter. This would be the case if the matter 
> possesses no charges. There can be two Hamiltonians that commute with 
> each 
> other, and it is the case the two sectors are independent. However, there 
> is the interaction H_i = ∫d^4x j*A that the two operators separately do 
> not 
> have involution with. This is where the interaction happens. So I have 
> suspicions about this claim.
>
> LC 
>

 Then try this:   The Casimir Effect and the Quantum Vacuum   
 https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503158  AG

>>>
>>> The above is authored by Robert L. Jaffe, another heavy dude!  
>>> https://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/jaffe_robert.html   AG
>>>
>>
>>
>> Jaffe is more in line. He is just demonstrating how one gets the Casimir 
>> effect even if one removes the vacuum with procedures such as normal 
>> ordering.
>>
>> LC 
>>
>
> Which suggests the vacuum energy has nothing to do with the Casimir effect 
> (if you get the same result by removing the vacuum!) AG
>

There is this procedure called normal ordering where raising operators a^† 
are pushed to the left and lowering a operators are pushed to the right. 
This by hand removes the [a,a^†] commutator responsible for the zero point 
energy. The harmonic oscillator Hamiltonian is H = ½(a^†a + aa^†} and to 
add and substract ½a^†a gives H = a^†a +½ [a,a^†]. Normal ordering removes 
that commutator term, which eliminates the zero point energy. This is 
alright because the ZPE does not interact with anything in this free field 
theory.

The thing is this commutator by itself does not produce the Casimir effect 
anyway. It is the term H_i = *℘*∙*A* or in a relativistic setting ∫d^4x *j*∙
*A* where we can start to see this physics. With the first term the *℘* is 
the dipole moment of an atom *℘* = *p*(σ_+ + σ_-), which in this reduce 
theory is two states toggled by the σ operators, and *A* = *A*_0(a^†e^{kx} 
- ae^{-kx}), Thus if there is a vacuum state, no photons, the interaction 
Hamiltonian has the operator terms from σ_-a^†e^{kx}, the rotating term, 
and σ_+a^†e^{kx} the counter rotating term apply. It is from here that we

Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

[Bruno Marchal]

Samiya,

That is what you get close to when believing in the collapse of the wave in 
Quantum Mechanics. That’s why some say, like Belinfante (working on hidden 
variable QM),  QM implies a God or a Multiverse. The notion of God 
unfortunately cannot be used in this context, unless God itself is explained, 
but by definition it can’t. 

With mechanism things are simpler, there is the arithmetical reality, and the 
multiverse appearance is explained by the many computational histories, 
consciousness is explained by a semantic sort of fixed point, and the 
appearance of a unique universal history is explained by human hubris. 
As the mechanist explanation is testable, let us continue the test, but I would 
say that materialism (the belief in ontological matter) is already refuted, 
which explains why the most serious materialist try to get rid of consciousness.

Bruno



> On 22 Apr 2020, at 14:37, Samiya Illias  wrote:
> 
> The Observer & The Existence of Reality 
> A Religious Perspective 
> https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-observer-existence-of-reality.html
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5915667F-3173-4DBA-8205-4BC572DB6F1A%40gmail.com
>  
> .

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