Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote:

On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote:

The SSH

  https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247

still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT
FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism.

It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of
materialist* physics - particles, fields, interactions, forces - but
to approach CONSCIOUSNESS AS PURELY MATERIAL - adding a new
force/interaction/particle/field as needed (like a sixth force/field).

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness

etc.

* or physicalist

@philipthrift


Physicalism is a dead end. The hard problem of consciousness and other 
philosophical problems can be considered to be no-go theorems against 
physicalism. Abandoning physicalism solves all these problems in one 
fell swoop. 


Really?  What are 'all these problems that are solved'?  Does it explain 
why a blow to the head renders you unconscious?  Does it explain how 
anesthesia works?  Does it explain epilepsy? Synasthesia?  Drunkeness?  
Does it explain the evocation of memories by electrostimulation of the 
brain?  Dementia?  Childhood amnesia?


Or is it just smug mysticism that physics hasn't explained X, so by 
rejecting physics I'm entitled to any explanation I want about X.


Brent

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Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

[smitra]

On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote:

The SSH

  https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247

still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT
FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism.

It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of
materialist* physics - particles, fields, interactions, forces - but
to approach CONSCIOUSNESS AS PURELY MATERIAL - adding a new
force/interaction/particle/field as needed (like a sixth force/field).

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness

etc.

* or physicalist

@philipthrift


Physicalism is a dead end. The hard problem of consciousness and other 
philosophical problems can be considered to be no-go theorems against 
physicalism. Abandoning physicalism solves all these problems in one 
fell swoop. But that also opens the door to wrong theories as people 
engaging with non-physicalist theories can too easily advertise their 
pet theories because they don't suffer from all the diseases physicalist 
theories suffer from. The bar has to be set higher, I would like to see 
a derivation of the laws of physics, not some vague argument that it is 
consistent with QM and unitary evolution but a lot more detail than just 
that.


Saibal

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Re: "Proof" of time-energy form of HUP -- anything awry here?

[Alan Grayson]

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 7:51:49 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=time-energy+uncertainty+principle+derivation&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS878US878&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=PjREgSqrhN_VwM%253A%252CzJ-juHz9_B7uxM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSgX8i7G1G5mvD-eKkPmWv9XPhMmg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKqtvSnJfpAhWabc0KHTWPC7IQ_h0wAHoECAYQBA#imgrc=JW1KwbviSVmcFM
>

Clark, let me help. This "proof" has a fatal flaw. Do you know what it is? 
AG 

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Re: The Wolfram Model

[Philip Thrift]

Have Goldstone bosons been *experimentally verified* to exist?

@philipthrift

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 4:20:04 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> I am a mathematician - not a physicist - but I don't understand why there 
> is this complaint against the Wolfram Model - but not many complaints about
>
> Many Worlds theories - https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.08132
> Ghost fields - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_(physics)
> etc.
>
> @philipthrift
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:02:00 PM UTC-5, ronaldheld wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am a physicist.   Ignoring the mind/body problems,what new predictions 
>> does his model make,and can it be falsified?
>>   Ronald
>> n Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:40:56 AM UTC-4, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The "hypergraph" stuff from Stephen Wolfram in recent news on his "new 
>>> foundation" of physics has a name: 
>>> *The Wolfram Model.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram*
>>> *Model*
>>> Jonathan Gorard
>>>
>>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-quantum-mechanical-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>>
>>> *Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model*
>>> *Jonathan Gorard*
>>>
>>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-relativistic-and-gravitational-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> @philipthrift
>>>
>>

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Re: The Wolfram Model

[Philip Thrift]

I am a mathematician - not a physicist - but I don't understand why there 
is this complaint against the Wolfram Model - but not many complaints about

Many Worlds theories - https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.08132
Ghost fields - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_(physics)
etc.

@philipthrift

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:02:00 PM UTC-5, ronaldheld wrote:
>
>
> I am a physicist.   Ignoring the mind/body problems,what new predictions 
> does his model make,and can it be falsified?
>   Ronald
> n Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:40:56 AM UTC-4, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>> The "hypergraph" stuff from Stephen Wolfram in recent news on his "new 
>> foundation" of physics has a name: 
>> *The Wolfram Model.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram*
>> *Model*
>> Jonathan Gorard
>>
>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-quantum-mechanical-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>
>> *Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model*
>> *Jonathan Gorard*
>>
>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-relativistic-and-gravitational-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>

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Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

[Philip Thrift]

The SSH 
   
  https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247

still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(*it from 
qubit*, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism.

It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of materialist* 
physics - particles, fields, interactions, forces - but to approach 
*consciousness 
as purely material* - adding a new force/interaction/particle/field as 
needed (like a sixth force/field).

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness
etc.

* or physicalist

@philipthrift



On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:18:25 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> I downloaded this. I have communicated with Klee Irwin some years ago. He 
> might be a bit of a modern day Tesla; there is evidence of some brilliance, 
> but also a bit of madness. He has promoted a line of bogus supplements and 
> other things. I have on FQXi an essay now on the possible role of 
> self-reference in quantum mechanics. Hofstadter called these strange loops. 
> There are some prospects along these lines. I though would advise keeping 
> the skeptics mental software loaded with this paper.
>
> LC
>
> On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 10:02:52 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote:
>>
>> Not sure if this paper has been mentioned here, but it seems quite apt 
>> to our discussions. It appears concordant with my ideas in "Theory of 
>> Nothing", also Bruno's AUDA and Brent's virtuous circles. 
>>
>> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247/htm 
>>
>> I haven't yet read the article in full - just the summary writeup here: 
>>
>>
>> https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/new-hypothesis-argues-the-universe-simulates-itself-into-existence?rebelltitem=6#rebelltitem6
>>  
>>
>> Cheers 
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>  
>>
>> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
>> Principal, High Performance Coders hpc...@hpcoders.com.au 
>>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>>  
>>
>>
>

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Re: The Wolfram Model

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:02:00 PM UTC-5, ronaldheld wrote:
>
>
> I am a physicist.   Ignoring the mind/body problems,what new predictions 
> does his model make,and can it be falsified?
>   Ronald
>

I have yet to read beyond the introduction on this, so I can only make a 
limited statement on this. I would say that if one want to see what 
connection this has to deep foundations it would be to find a map between 
this and the Langland's conjecture. Wolfram's model looks very 
combinatorial, and this has connections with number theory. The Langland's 
hypothesis is that results in number theory, say with integer partition, 
Klein j-invariant functions and sporadic groups are all tied to elementary 
number theoretic or graph theoretic results. There may be great territory 
to explore here.

LC
 

> n Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:40:56 AM UTC-4, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>> The "hypergraph" stuff from Stephen Wolfram in recent news on his "new 
>> foundation" of physics has a name: 
>> *The Wolfram Model.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram*
>> *Model*
>> Jonathan Gorard
>>
>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-quantum-mechanical-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>
>> *Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model*
>> *Jonathan Gorard*
>>
>> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-relativistic-and-gravitational-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>>
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>

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Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

[Lawrence Crowell]

I downloaded this. I have communicated with Klee Irwin some years ago. He 
might be a bit of a modern day Tesla; there is evidence of some brilliance, 
but also a bit of madness. He has promoted a line of bogus supplements and 
other things. I have on FQXi an essay now on the possible role of 
self-reference in quantum mechanics. Hofstadter called these strange loops. 
There are some prospects along these lines. I though would advise keeping 
the skeptics mental software loaded with this paper.

LC

On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 10:02:52 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote:
>
> Not sure if this paper has been mentioned here, but it seems quite apt 
> to our discussions. It appears concordant with my ideas in "Theory of 
> Nothing", also Bruno's AUDA and Brent's virtuous circles. 
>
> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247/htm 
>
> I haven't yet read the article in full - just the summary writeup here: 
>
>
> https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/new-hypothesis-argues-the-universe-simulates-itself-into-existence?rebelltitem=6#rebelltitem6
>  
>
> Cheers 
>
> -- 
>
>  
>
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpc...@hpcoders.com.au 
>  
>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>  
>
>

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Re: The Wolfram Model

[ronaldheld]

I am a physicist.   Ignoring the mind/body problems,what new predictions 
does his model make,and can it be falsified?
  Ronald
n Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:40:56 AM UTC-4, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
> The "hypergraph" stuff from Stephen Wolfram in recent news on his "new 
> foundation" of physics has a name: 
> *The Wolfram Model.*
>
>
>
> *Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram*
> *Model*
> Jonathan Gorard
>
> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-quantum-mechanical-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>
> *Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model*
> *Jonathan Gorard*
>
> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-relativistic-and-gravitational-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>
>
> @philipthrift
>

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"Proof" of time-energy form of HUP -- anything awry here?

[Alan Grayson]

https://www.google.com/search?q=time-energy+uncertainty+principle+derivation&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS878US878&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=PjREgSqrhN_VwM%253A%252CzJ-juHz9_B7uxM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSgX8i7G1G5mvD-eKkPmWv9XPhMmg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKqtvSnJfpAhWabc0KHTWPC7IQ_h0wAHoECAYQBA#imgrc=JW1KwbviSVmcFM

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Re: The Wolfram Model

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 3 May 2020, at 04:17, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 4:27:11 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> I roughly see how this part (gravitation in the Wolfram Model) works out:
> 
> 
> from 
> 
> Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram Model
> Jonathan Gorard
> 1University of Cambridge
> 2Wolfram Research, Inc
> 
> 
> The Wolfram Model can be thought of as being an abstract generalization of 
> the “Causal Dynamical Triangulation” approach to quantum gravity developed by 
> Loll, Ambjørn, and Jurkiewicz.
> 
> The first essential step in the derivation of special relativity for 
> causal-invariant Wolfram Model systems is to make precise the formal 
> correspondence between directed edges connecting updating events in a 
> discrete causal graph, and timelike-separation of events in a continuous 
> Minkowski space (or, more generally, in a Lorentzian manifold).
> 
> The present article has demonstrated the Wolfram Model to be a novel, 
> exciting and potentially highly fruitful discrete model for spacetime 
> geometry, exhibiting discrete analogs of many (and possibly all) of the 
> salient mathematical features of Lorentzian and pseudo-Riemannian manifolds 
> in limiting cases. There exist a variety of open problems arising from this 
> work, ranging from the possibility of computing higher-order corrections to 
> the discrete Einstein field equations, to determining the 
> computability-theoretic and complexity-theoretic properties that distinguish 
> inertial and non-inertial reference frames, to developing a theory of general 
> relativity that holds in manifolds with variable spacetime dimensions. A few 
> of these problems are discussed in greater depth in our accompanying 
> publication on quantum mechanics, which makes significant use of both the 
> special relativistic and general relativistic formalisms that we develop 
> inthis paper (especially the relationship between confluence, causal 
> invariance and Lorentz covariance, and the derivation of the discrete 
> Einstein field equations), and we intend to investigate several more of these 
> questions in the course of future publications. The present work, however, 
> has at least revealed the Wolfram Model to be a plausible fundamental model 
> for classical relativistic and gravitational physics, and we eagerly await 
> the implications that this will entail.
> 
> 
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> 
> Shall we call it Bruno 2.0? AG

It is just physics. It ignores the mind-body problem, and probably used 
implicitly, like all physicists (and they are right to this when doing physics) 
the mind-brae  identity thesis (which is locally true, but globally false when 
we assume mechanism, as Wolfram seems to do (and do in its “new science” book).

I am not a physicist, so I cannot really judge the originality, nor the 
importance. But seen from metaphysics/theology, it missed the qualia, and does 
not address the (logical) origin of the physical laws.

Bruno





>  
> 
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 2:43:25 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> You will be introduced to the true formulation of the foundations of physics 
> -  which will lead to its unification - leaving behind the deluding morass of 
> the old mathematical-physics foundations you were brainwashed with as a 
> student.
> 
> What else?
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 2:14:21 PM UTC-5, ronaldheld wrote:
> What will I be getting from reading these long papers?
> Ronald
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:40:56 AM UTC-4, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> The "hypergraph" stuff from Stephen Wolfram in recent news on his "new 
> foundation" of physics has a name: The Wolfram Model.
> 
> 
> 
> Some Relativistic and Gravitational Properties of the Wolfram
> Model
> Jonathan Gorard
> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-quantum-mechanical-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model
> Jonathan Gorard
> https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/wolframphysics/Documents/some-relativistic-and-gravitational-properties-of-the-wolfram-model.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
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>  
> 

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 3 May 2020, at 05:02, Russell Standish  wrote:
> 
> Not sure if this paper has been mentioned here, but it seems quite apt
> to our discussions. It appears concordant with my ideas in "Theory of
> Nothing", also Bruno's AUDA and Brent's virtuous circles.
> 
> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247/htm
> 
> I haven't yet read the article in full - just the summary writeup here:
> 
> https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/new-hypothesis-argues-the-universe-simulates-itself-into-existence?rebelltitem=6#rebelltitem6


It still postulate some physical universe, and miss the fact that elementary 
arithmetic must be assumed, and then cannot be completed (they miss the 1930s 
theorems: elementary arithmetic is the computer that they mention). Due to 
this, they missed the theory of qulaia, and the fact that the theory of quanta 
is part of that theory of qualia. Now, I have not looked at any detail, and the 
type of physics they use might, or not, be coherent with the mechanist 
hypothesis, that they seem to use (but that is unclear, as they don’t define 
precisely the notion of “simulation” that they use.

Best,

Bruno



> 
> Cheers
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>  http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> 
> 
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