Re: Page time and quantum error correction codes

[Lawrence Crowell]

The firewall is a bit of an ad hoc fix, but if the Hamming distance expands 
beyond the limits of a QECC it means either the quantum code is not 
decipherable or to prevent that the idea is then the equivalence principle 
fails. In effect the singularity appears on the exterior at the horizon. 
The firewall prevent bipartite entanglements from becoming tripartite 
entanglements of radiation interior, exterior and much older Hawking 
radiation near I^+. This then protects unitarity.

LC 

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 11:46:13 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>
> I read it.  What I wonder is why failure of the equivalence principle 
> implies a "fire wall"?  Does that mean a high-temperature?  I can imagine 
> lots of ways the equivalence principle could fail.
>
> Brent
>
> On 12/29/2017 1:36 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> I am curious whether anybody looked at this. I got more response from a 
> post I sent to this list by accident.  
>
> LC
>
> On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 7:17:13 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
> wrote: 
>>
>> I answered an outstanding question on the physics stack exchange on page 
>> time and information scrambling 
>> .
>>  
>> Below are the first three paragraphs of the answer.
>>
>> The Page time comes about because of the nature of entanglement. For a 
>> cavity emitter of black body radiation a photon emitted early on is 
>> entangled with atomic states in the cavity. However, once half the energy 
>> in the cavity is emitted subsequent radiation emitted is entangled with 
>> radiation emitted earlier. As a result the entanglement entropy increases 
>> to some maximum, at about half the energy emitted, and then declines. The 
>> entangled states are towards the end in the form of emitted radiation.
>>
>> A black hole is similar in that Hawking radiation is emitted from an 
>> entangled pair of photons or electron positron pairs. One enters the black 
>> hole and the other escapes to infinity. At the half way mark, where the 
>> black hole has emitted half its mass a conundrum becomes apparent. The 
>> black hole continues to build up entanglement entropy by this process. It 
>> will exceed the Bekenstein entropy bound. If this is prevented by assuming 
>> entanglement of later Hawking radiation is entangled with early Hawking 
>> radiation this force bipartite entanglements to evolve into tripartite 
>> states, which is not possible by unitary evolution. This is said to violate 
>> the monogamy rule. This generally occurs at the so called Page time.
>>
>> The idea then is that something catastrophic happens where either unitary 
>> evolution or the equivalence principle fails. Preference is given to 
>> unitarity, so the equivalence principle is said to fail at the so called 
>> firewall.
>>
>> Continued at 
>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/368492/page-time-and-black-hole-scrambling-of-information
>>
>> LC
>>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com .
> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Page time and quantum error correction codes

[Brent Meeker]

I read it.  What I wonder is why failure of the equivalence principle 
implies a "fire wall"?  Does that mean a high-temperature?  I can 
imagine lots of ways the equivalence principle could fail.


Brent

On 12/29/2017 1:36 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
I am curious whether anybody looked at this. I got more response from 
a post I sent to this list by accident.


LC

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 7:17:13 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
wrote:


I answered an outstanding question on the physics stack exchange
on page time and information scrambling

.
Below are the first three paragraphs of the answer.

The Page time comes about because of the nature of entanglement.
For a cavity emitter of black body radiation a photon emitted
early on is entangled with atomic states in the cavity. However,
once half the energy in the cavity is emitted subsequent radiation
emitted is entangled with radiation emitted earlier. As a result
the entanglement entropy increases to some maximum, at about half
the energy emitted, and then declines. The entangled states are
towards the end in the form of emitted radiation.

A black hole is similar in that Hawking radiation is emitted from
an entangled pair of photons or electron positron pairs. One
enters the black hole and the other escapes to infinity. At the
half way mark, where the black hole has emitted half its mass a
conundrum becomes apparent. The black hole continues to build up
entanglement entropy by this process. It will exceed the
Bekenstein entropy bound. If this is prevented by assuming
entanglement of later Hawking radiation is entangled with early
Hawking radiation this force bipartite entanglements to evolve
into tripartite states, which is not possible by unitary
evolution. This is said to violate the monogamy rule. This
generally occurs at the so called Page time.

The idea then is that something catastrophic happens where either
unitary evolution or the equivalence principle fails. Preference
is given to unitarity, so the equivalence principle is said to
fail at the so called firewall.

Continued at

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/368492/page-time-and-black-hole-scrambling-of-information



LC

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com 
.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Page time and quantum error correction codes

[Lawrence Crowell]

I am curious whether anybody looked at this. I got more response from a 
post I sent to this list by accident. 

LC

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 7:17:13 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> I answered an outstanding question on the physics stack exchange on page 
> time and information scrambling 
> .
>  
> Below are the first three paragraphs of the answer.
>
> The Page time comes about because of the nature of entanglement. For a 
> cavity emitter of black body radiation a photon emitted early on is 
> entangled with atomic states in the cavity. However, once half the energy 
> in the cavity is emitted subsequent radiation emitted is entangled with 
> radiation emitted earlier. As a result the entanglement entropy increases 
> to some maximum, at about half the energy emitted, and then declines. The 
> entangled states are towards the end in the form of emitted radiation.
>
> A black hole is similar in that Hawking radiation is emitted from an 
> entangled pair of photons or electron positron pairs. One enters the black 
> hole and the other escapes to infinity. At the half way mark, where the 
> black hole has emitted half its mass a conundrum becomes apparent. The 
> black hole continues to build up entanglement entropy by this process. It 
> will exceed the Bekenstein entropy bound. If this is prevented by assuming 
> entanglement of later Hawking radiation is entangled with early Hawking 
> radiation this force bipartite entanglements to evolve into tripartite 
> states, which is not possible by unitary evolution. This is said to violate 
> the monogamy rule. This generally occurs at the so called Page time.
>
> The idea then is that something catastrophic happens where either unitary 
> evolution or the equivalence principle fails. Preference is given to 
> unitarity, so the equivalence principle is said to fail at the so called 
> firewall.
>
> Continued at 
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/368492/page-time-and-black-hole-scrambling-of-information
>
> LC
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.