Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Rudolf Künzli]

On Fri, 2016-08-05 at 00:00 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 23:35 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> > 
> > I was much younger, in the 1985 I had an email function (BSD Unix)
> > with
> > that one I could bounce a message.
> > I did get an disliked message and I
> > could just hit "bounce" instead of "reply"...
> > I simply did ask if such a
> > feature exists.
> 
> As Adam already mentioned, there is a Redirect feature (it's under
> Message->Forward though semantically it doesn't really belong there
> IMHO). This is something that at one time all mail clients had, and
> Evolution still does though most people aren't aware of it.
> 
> poc

Thanks a lot!


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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2016-08-05 at 05:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2016-08-05 at 00:00 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > 
> > As Adam already mentioned, there is a Redirect feature (it's under
> > Message->Forward though semantically it doesn't really belong there
> > IMHO). This is something that at one time all mail clients had, and
> > Evolution still does though most people aren't aware of it.
> 
> While this keeps the original formatting, without adding a "forward"
> text, it doesn't return to sender. This mail From: Patrick
> O'Callaghan,
> To: evolution-list gets redirected to evolution-list and not to
> Patrick
> O'Callaghan. It's the same for private messages, without a mailing
> list
> header, a mail from somebody to me, gets redirected to me. Doing the
> same with Claws, you get the original formatting, without "forward"
> text, too, but you need to add a recipient manually.
> 
> It belongs to "forward", since it's the same kind of formatting, just
> without the additional text.

And it doesn't happen automatically.

It would be possible to create a filter rule for sender and pipe mails
from somebody to a program, e.g. to a script using sendmail or a
sendmail replacement such as msmtp.

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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 23:35 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> I was much younger, in the 1985 I had an email function (BSD Unix) with
> that one I could bounce a message.
> I did get an disliked message and I
> could just hit "bounce" instead of "reply"...
> I simply did ask if such a
> feature exists.

As Adam already mentioned, there is a Redirect feature (it's under
Message->Forward though semantically it doesn't really belong there
IMHO). This is something that at one time all mail clients had, and
Evolution still does though most people aren't aware of it.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 23:04 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:37 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > 
> > All that does is confirm that your address receives mail. They can
> > then set up a different sender and keep spamming you. The spam we get
> > on the list (filtered by your friendly moderators so you mostly don't
> > see it) is in many cases auto-generated and the sender address is
> > obviously spurious. Reflecting mail back isn't going to do anything
> > useful.
> 
> He didn't mention anonymous mail. Maybe he wants to hurt his
> ex-girlfriend :D.
> 

Please refrain from personal comments on this list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Rudolf Künzli]

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Skype: rudolf.kunzli

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 23:04 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:37 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > All that does is confirm that your address receives mail. They can
> > > > then set up a different sender and keep spamming you. The spam we
get
> > > > on the list (filtered by your friendly moderators so you mostly
don't
> > see it) is in many cases auto-generated and the sender address is
> > obviously spurious. Reflecting mail back isn't going to do anything
> > useful.
> 
> He didn't mention anonymous mail. Maybe he wants to hurt his
> ex-girlfriend :D.
> 
Get lost !
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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Rudolf Künzli]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 22:20 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:58 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> > The message was not clear.
> > I have some people sending me messages I don't like.
> > Naturally I could set up a filter and delete them automatically.
> > But I like to let them know that their messages are not welcome
> > More clear now?
> 
> It was already clear enough by your first mail. I don't think that
> Evolution provides such an idiotic feature. It's possible to do this
> > with Linux, at least by a script, but somebody doing this is not
better
> than any other person who sends spam. Simply blacklist unwanted email
> > addresses by the server's option. Most, if not all email providers
allow
> > to do this, by using their web interfaces to do so. To return emails
to
> > the sender is childish. What should this be good for? Are you trying
to
> do a pseudo DDoS attack?
> 
Sir,
You have all rights to call me an idiot even I am not such one.
When
I was much younger, in the 1985 I had an email function (BSD Unix) with
that one I could bounce a message.
I did get an disliked message and I
could just hit "bounce" instead of "reply"...
I simply did ask if such a
feature exists.
Thank you very much to call this behaviour to be
childish (my age is 71).
And just to complete the information on my
person,  I am a  founder of Autodesk, Inc, and a developer of AutoCAD
from 1982 to 1990...
I hope you have a nice day...

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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:37 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> All that does is confirm that your address receives mail. They can
> then set up a different sender and keep spamming you. The spam we get
> on the list (filtered by your friendly moderators so you mostly don't
> see it) is in many cases auto-generated and the sender address is
> obviously spurious. Reflecting mail back isn't going to do anything
> useful.

He didn't mention anonymous mail. Maybe he wants to hurt his
ex-girlfriend :D.

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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:58 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> The message was not clear.
> I have some people sending me messages I don't like.
> Naturally I could set up a filter and delete them automatically.
> But I like to let them know that their messages are not welcome
> More clear now?

It was already clear enough by your first mail. I don't think that
Evolution provides such an idiotic feature. It's possible to do this
with Linux, at least by a script, but somebody doing this is not better
than any other person who sends spam. Simply blacklist unwanted email
addresses by the server's option. Most, if not all email providers allow
to do this, by using their web interfaces to do so. To return emails to
the sender is childish. What should this be good for? Are you trying to
do a pseudo DDoS attack?

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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 20:05 +0100, Andrew Beverley wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 Andrew Beverley wrote:
> > 
> > Yahoo and AOL are about the only major email providers that use
> > DMARC. It was quite controversial when they turned it on, especially
> > with no notice.
> 
> Incidentally, Gmail have announced that they will start using DMARC in
> the future, but they have taken a much more grown-up approach, and
> appear to be waiting for new standards to be developed (ARC) that will
> allow lists to continue as they were.

Apart from this, Yahoo, AOL and Gmail might take over other email
provides. I was subscribed by several RocketMail addresses to mailing
lists. "RocketMail, was acquired by Yahoo! in 1997" [1], but while the
only Yahoo address I'm using already was a PITA for mailing list usage,
RocketMail still was ok as of shortly. OTOH my Alice address still is
ok, while AOL, Alice, Telefonica, O2 seemingly are already one company.

Regards,
Ralf

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMail

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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Rudolf Künzli]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 15:52 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:52 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Is there a way to bounce messages back to the sender?
> > I'd need that from time to time.
> 
> Not entirely sure what you mean by "bounce", but you can Message
> ->Forward As->Redirect.
> 
> 
The message was not clear.
I have some people sending me messages I don't like.
Naturally I could set up a filter and delete them automatically.
But I like to let them know that their messages are not welcome
More clear now?

Thanks
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Re: [Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 21:52 +0200, Rudolf Künzli wrote:
> Hello,
> Is there a way to bounce messages back to the sender?
> I'd need that from time to time.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "bounce", but you can Message
->Forward As->Redirect.


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[Evolution] Bouncing emails

[Rudolf Künzli]

Hello,

Is there a way to bounce messages back to the sender?
I'd need that from time to time.
Cheers

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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Andrew Beverley]

On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 Steve T  wrote:
> It's my lack of understanding as to how all this works. I had simply
> assumed that when I sent a mail to the list, it just went to the list
> - and was 'from me'. Any mails then from the list back 'out' (ie to me
> and the other subscribers) I had assumed just came from the list (I
> thought that ALL Evolution list messages came from the list directly,
> not redirected and still using the subscribers EMail)

List messages have traditionally kept the sender's email address, so
that you can see who sent the message and reply directly to them if you
want.

> But if I have got this right, you're saying that messages 'from the
> list' aren't necessarily marked as being from the list, so Yahoo
> bounces them - is that correct?

Well, they are marked clearly as being from a list, but Yahoo's DMARC
policy prevents anyone sending emails "on behalf of", which is
effectively what a list is. The only exception is when the original
message is not altered, but it has to be to add subject prefix, footer
etc.

> Are all list EMail redirected as if from the subscriber - as if so, I
> think I'm still lost as to how ANY mails then get through from the
> list to me - surely all mails from the list would fail the DMARC test?

Yahoo and AOL are about the only major email providers that use DMARC.
It was quite controversial when they turned it on, especially with no
notice. For example:
http://www.spamresource.com/2014/04/up-in-arms-about-yahoos-dmarc-policy.html

Andy
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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Steve T]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 17:20 +0100, Andrew Beverley wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > Correction, there are a couple of outliers (one from outlook.com)
> > but
> > I'm inclined to think those are genuine bounces, e.g. mailbox full
> > or
> > user unknown. Trouble is we don't have access to the actual bounce
> > message so it's basically guesswork.
> 
> It's a nightmare, as the DMARC record on Yahoo email addresses can
> cause any other member's email address to bounce (and be removed).
> 
> The DMARC record tells receivers to reject the email if not received
> directly from Yahoo. So some...@yahoo.com sends an email to the list,
> the list forwards to ot...@outlook.com, ot...@outlook.com rejects as
> it's not directly from yahoo.com. ot...@outlook.com then clocks up a
> bounce failure within the list software.
> 
> The only solution is for the list software to be altered to rewrite
> the
> from address of DMARC domains, or for people with DMARC domains (e.g.
> @yahoo.co.uk) to use a different email address to send to the list
> (e.g. Gmail)
> 
> As someone has already said, DMARC was never envisaged for this sort
> of
> use (instead it's for @paypal.com etc), but it looks like it's here
> to
> stay (or at least until if/when ARC is implemented for email
> forwarding).
> 
> Andy
It's my lack of understanding as to how all this works. I had simply
assumed that when I sent a mail to the list, it just went to the list -
and was 'from me'. Any mails then from the list back 'out' (ie to me
and the other subscribers) I had assumed just came from the list (I
thought that ALL Evolution list messages came from the list directly,
not redirected and still using the subscribers EMail)  - so I couldn't
see why Yahoo's DMARC policy then caused any issue (as it would only
then be checking that list messages actually came from the list). But
if I have got this right, you're saying that messages 'from the list'
aren't necessarily marked as being from the list, so Yahoo bounces them
- is that correct?
Are all list EMail redirected as if from the subscriber - as if so, I
think I'm still lost as to how ANY mails then get through from the list
to me - surely all mails from the list would fail the DMARC test?
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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Andrew Beverley]

On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> Correction, there are a couple of outliers (one from outlook.com) but
> I'm inclined to think those are genuine bounces, e.g. mailbox full or
> user unknown. Trouble is we don't have access to the actual bounce
> message so it's basically guesswork.

It's a nightmare, as the DMARC record on Yahoo email addresses can
cause any other member's email address to bounce (and be removed).

The DMARC record tells receivers to reject the email if not received
directly from Yahoo. So some...@yahoo.com sends an email to the list,
the list forwards to ot...@outlook.com, ot...@outlook.com rejects as
it's not directly from yahoo.com. ot...@outlook.com then clocks up a
bounce failure within the list software.

The only solution is for the list software to be altered to rewrite the
from address of DMARC domains, or for people with DMARC domains (e.g.
@yahoo.co.uk) to use a different email address to send to the list
(e.g. Gmail)

As someone has already said, DMARC was never envisaged for this sort of
use (instead it's for @paypal.com etc), but it looks like it's here to
stay (or at least until if/when ARC is implemented for email
forwarding).

Andy
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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 16:42 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 16:07 +0100, Steve T wrote:
> > 
> > This has literally just happened again.
> > Given that it seems to be down to Yahoo's anti spam policy, I wasn't
> > sure if you wanted to know each time it occurred - let me know.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Steve T
> > 
> > 
> >  Forwarded Message 
> > From: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org
> > To: stevetuckn...@yahoo.co.uk
> > Subject: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing
> > list
> > Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 15:00:08 +
> > 
> > Bye!
> 
> No need to inform us. I've set a flag so we get automatic notifications
> of this. As far as I can tell all the cases we've seen since have been
> due to bounces from Yahoo.
> 
> Thanks all the same.

Correction, there are a couple of outliers (one from outlook.com) but
I'm inclined to think those are genuine bounces, e.g. mailbox full or
user unknown. Trouble is we don't have access to the actual bounce
message so it's basically guesswork.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 16:07 +0100, Steve T wrote:
> This has literally just happened again.
> Given that it seems to be down to Yahoo's anti spam policy, I wasn't
> sure if you wanted to know each time it occurred - let me know.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Steve T
> 
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> From: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org
> To: stevetuckn...@yahoo.co.uk
> Subject: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing
> list
> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 15:00:08 +
> 
> Bye!

No need to inform us. I've set a flag so we get automatic notifications
of this. As far as I can tell all the cases we've seen since have been
due to bounces from Yahoo.

Thanks all the same.

poc
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[Evolution] [Fwd: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing list]

[Steve T]

This has literally just happened again.
Given that it seems to be down to Yahoo's anti spam policy, I wasn't
sure if you wanted to know each time it occurred - let me know.

Regards

Steve T


 Forwarded Message 
From: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org
To: stevetuckn...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: You have been unsubscribed from the evolution-list mailing
list
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 15:00:08 +

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