Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

On 11/14/22 12:08, Paul Smith wrote:

On Mon, 2022-11-14 at 09:19 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:

The 3.46.x flatpak series has been a total disaster for me.
Mysterious segfaults after 15 or so actions.

This is (probably) due to the bug in libsoup, which has been fixed but
that fix has not made it to the releases yet.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libsoup/-/issues/308


Connection failures right and left.  I manage 8 email addresses. 4
Google workspace address, 2 Google free gmail address and 2 MS office
online addresses.  All 8 use Oauth2 to authenticate via IMAP.   At
the moment, 3 of google address won't authenticate ( 2 paid, 1 free)
and 1 of the MS accounts also fails.

Hm.  I have 1 IMAP, 2 GMail (1 company 1 private), and 1 Exchange and
all work properly for me.


When it works Flatpak is a nice tool, a much better alternative than
trying build Evolution from scratch or running the distro version
which is on 3.36.5

I just want to make clear that the above issues are not due to
_flatpak_ as a technology (at least there's no proof of that).  They
are due to issues in Evolution 3.46 (or libraries it uses like
libsoup).


Never said it was a Flatpak issue, just an issue that has been eating
my lunch since 3.46.x went live.


IOW, if you had Evolution 3.46 installed natively on your system, not
via flatpak, you'd almost certainly see the same issues.  Flatpak
won't, unfortunately, fix bugs in software it packages :).

Unfortunately,  Ubuntu/Linux Mint trail Evolution by so much as to
make the distro install worthless to me, as I seem to be abusing Evolution
around the edges.  I left the distro provided version because of missing
functionality and bugs that impacted me, moving to the more current
Flatpak version.

Not to mention I don't have time nor disk space to build from scratch.


The nice thing about flatpak is it's quite simple to install an older
version (e.g., Evolution 3.44) if that's helpful to you.  If you're
seeing crashes that often you may well want to downgrade until the
libsoup issue is resolved in a flatpak.

Tried that once, was as nice as you imply as Evolution requires other
flatpaks to work properly. So you end up in a dependency hell trying to
get all the bits to the appropriate levels.

I find it easier just keep an instance of Thunderbird configured for when
Evolution flakes out.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Mon, 2022-11-14 at 20:09 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> it was pointed out several times that Evolution downgrades are
> sometimes a problem regarding the user data/settings. Downgrades of
> any software can suffer from this issues.

Of course.  I didn't mean to suggest that somehow flatpak would handle
this; it's not magic.

However, since the OP is using IMAP, GMail, and Exchange none of which
store any critical data locally, you don't need to try to downgrade the
user settings.  You can downgrade the software then recreate the
accounts and not have lost anything (I've done similar things a number
of times over the years).

> Flatpaks and similar approaches make some things easier for users,
> but other things harder and they even don't solve all existing
> problems related to upgrades and downgrades.

I'm not sure what you had in mind when you say "other things harder",
but to me "make some things easier" can be worthwhile even IF it
doesn't "solve all existing problems".  Luckily I'm not waiting for
something that solves all existing problems, or I'd never use anything.

Look, to be clear, if I have the choice between installing Evolution
natively from my distro versus the same version of Evolution in a
flatpak, I'll certainly choose the native distro version.

That's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about either a 2+-year-old version of Evolution from my
distro that doesn't do what I need, versus a much newer version of
Evolution in a flatpak, versus trying to build and install it myself. 
I've been down that road before.

I'm saying that flatpak is a perfectly reasonable technology and I've
seen no real, practical problems with it that would prevent me from
using it, or from recommending that others who need it use it as well.
I HAVE seen a lot of people quite het up about it, but none of the
reasons given (when reasons are given) seem that important to me.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-11-14 at 13:08 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> The nice thing about flatpak is it's quite simple to install an older
> version (e.g., Evolution 3.44) if that's helpful to you.

Hi,

it was pointed out several times that Evolution downgrades are sometimes
a problem regarding the user data/settings. Downgrades of any software
can suffer from this issues. Sometimes user data/settings are
transformed by an update to a different format and can become
incompatible for usage with older versions. IOW unless it's not verified
that the user data/settings are backwards compatible or a backup of
compatible formatted user data is available, it doesn't matter how easy
or hard the downgrade of the software itself is.

I don't know if data/settings used with 3.46 do work without issues when
using 3.44. Much likely there's no issue with emails and if needed
settings can be reset to defaults by the gsettings command. Likely the
worst case is to redo the settings.

Resume, downgrading this kind of containerized software is easier to do
for bloated software, than for the same software with a huge shared
dependency tree, but the container approach doesn't solve user
data/settings backwards incompatibility.

Flatpaks and similar approaches make some things easier for users, but
other things harder and they even don't solve all existing problems
related to upgrades and downgrades.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Mon, 2022-11-14 at 09:19 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> The 3.46.x flatpak series has been a total disaster for me.
> Mysterious segfaults after 15 or so actions.

This is (probably) due to the bug in libsoup, which has been fixed but
that fix has not made it to the releases yet.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libsoup/-/issues/308

> Connection failures right and left.  I manage 8 email addresses. 4
> Google workspace address, 2 Google free gmail address and 2 MS office
> online addresses.  All 8 use Oauth2 to authenticate via IMAP.   At
> the moment, 3 of google address won't authenticate ( 2 paid, 1 free)
> and 1 of the MS accounts also fails.

Hm.  I have 1 IMAP, 2 GMail (1 company 1 private), and 1 Exchange and
all work properly for me.

> When it works Flatpak is a nice tool, a much better alternative than
> trying build Evolution from scratch or running the distro version
> which is on 3.36.5

I just want to make clear that the above issues are not due to
_flatpak_ as a technology (at least there's no proof of that).  They
are due to issues in Evolution 3.46 (or libraries it uses like
libsoup).

IOW, if you had Evolution 3.46 installed natively on your system, not
via flatpak, you'd almost certainly see the same issues.  Flatpak
won't, unfortunately, fix bugs in software it packages :).

The nice thing about flatpak is it's quite simple to install an older
version (e.g., Evolution 3.44) if that's helpful to you.  If you're
seeing crashes that often you may well want to downgrade until the
libsoup issue is resolved in a flatpak.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

On 11/8/22 00:21, Paul Smith wrote:

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 16:17 -0600, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 16:34 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:

I'm not sure I understand this comment.  The whole point of flatpak
(and snap) is that it's not _supposed_ to need to worry about the
dependencies of the distribution.  That's why you'd use it.


Which is why they are bad ideas to use. There is no way that ARCH or
Gentoo or Kali use the same dependencies. It's called "Dependency
Hell" and the theory of FlatPack and SNAP not needing to follow or
use a distributions is like walking into a [...]

As mentioned I'm using Ubuntu 20.04 which has a similar vintage of
Gnome desktop and apps, including Evolution, that the Debian stable in
question uses.  And the flatpak version of Evolution 3.46 works great
on my system.


The 3.46.x flatpak series has been a total disaster for me. Mysterious

segfaults after 15 or so actions.

Connection failures right and left.  I manage 8 email addresses. 4 Google
workspace address, 2 Google free gmail address and 2 MS office online
addresses.  All 8 use Oauth2 to authenticate via IMAP.   At the moment,
3 of google address won't authenticate ( 2 paid, 1 free) and 1 of the MS
accounts also fails.

Every Flatpak component is fully updated, leaving me running 3.46.1 at
the moment.

When it works Flatpak is a nice tool, a much better alternative than trying
build Evolution from scratch or running the distro version which is on 
3.36.5


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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 16:57 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> I simply urge people to not take these "it's horrible" statements,
> without any reference to actual problems that anyone has ever had in
> real life and very little understanding of what exactly a flatpak or
> snap is, how they are built, or how they work, as gospel.

Hi,

in 2016 I tried to build a snap for qjackctl, hence a real-time sound
server and real-time audio apps using this sound server were involved.
This time I was subscribed to
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/snapcraft , in the meantime
replaced by https://forum.snapcraft.io ;). Nowadays probably some of the
old issues are solved, however, apart from security concerns, the snap
infrastructure is inappropriate for a lot of domains, while the classic
packages or ports approach is appropriate for all domains.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

It's clear that no one has any actual pros/cons that they want to
discuss in a serious way.  So, this is my last message on this topic.

I simply urge people to not take these "it's horrible" statements,
without any reference to actual problems that anyone has ever had in
real life and very little understanding of what exactly a flatpak or
snap is, how they are built, or how they work, as gospel.


On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 13:49 -0600, Greg Oliver via evolution-list
wrote:
> Do you really think Canonical understands linux?  They have zero
> developers in the kernel development process, plus Debian only has
> (2) that I know of..  So, please do not use distros as live bait - it
> is inappropriate - you use software from a distro that has no regard
> for how the kernel / OS actually works - just a bunch of js
> programmers.

What in the world does the number of kernel programmers have to do with
the ability to create a reliable flatpak or snap?  That's like saying
someone who doesn't know how to modify a furnace can't be trusted to
create a functional kitchen.

I've interacted with PLENTY of good programmers who develop these
distros and they have very deep understanding of their systems.  If you
think all you need to create a distribution like Ubuntu is a "bunch of
JS programmers" I suggest you try it yourself and see how it goes.

This is just trolling.

> > And, it Just Works.
> 
> Just Works :)
> I like that!
> Until it doesn't

Yes... just exactly like ALL OTHER SOFTWARE EVER CREATED!

This discussion is pointless.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 13:49 -0600, Greg Oliver via evolution-list wrote:
> Do you really think Canonical understands linux?  They have zero
> developers in the kernel development process, plus Debian only has (2)
> that I know of..  So, please do not use distros as live bait - it is
> inappropriate - you use software from a distro that has no regard for
> how the kernel / OS actually works - just a bunch of js programmers.

Hi,

I'm probably the last to like the steps in the wrong direction being
taken by Ubuntu, let alone my production machine running Arch Linux.
However, I seriously doubt that at least the Ubuntu Security Team and/or
Canonical Security Team are "just a bunch of js programmers".

The snap route is freakish and all the harder to understand by assuming
they know what they're doing.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Greg Oliver via evolution-list]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 9:58 AM Paul Smith  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 09:33 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I know this is getting way of topic, but this is primarily why I shy
> > away from Flatpak. You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no
> > real idea what is in that - it could be some ancient bug-ridden
> > library that the dev has decided to use because that's what was on
> > their system then writing it 20 years ago and they can't be bothered
> > to update it.
>
> I get that people are concerned and there are some legitimate concerns.
> But some of these are just due to misunderstandings or NIH syndrome.
>
> First, flatpaks are created from a known set of content which is
> described by a declarative file.  The content is controlled so you know
> you're rebuilding from the same thing all the time.
>
> Second, flatpaks for Gnome tools such as Evolution are created and
> managed by the same people who create the Gnome software.  Snaps are
> created by Canonical, for Ubuntu.  They're not just some random
> assortment of junk that some hacker cobbled together in their basement
> and tossed out on the internet.  If you trust Gnome or Canonical to
> create the _software_ you run on your system it seems odd to not trust
> them to build a flatpak or snap for it; really there's no one better to
> do it.

Do you really think Canonical understands linux?  They have zero
developers in the kernel development process, plus Debian only has (2)
that I know of..  So, please do not use distros as live bait - it is
inappropriate - you use software from a distro that has no regard for
how the kernel / OS actually works - just a bunch of js programmers.

> The content of a flatpak/snap is actually MORE rigorously managed than
> whatever assortment of package versions you have currently installed on
> your system.

rigorously - really..

> And yes, containers can be leaky.  In fact some of that leakage is
> needed (you certainly want to be able to attach files to emails, that
> exist outside the flatpak container!)  But the leaks are minimal and
> getting plugged more and more every day.  They're very very good by
> now.
>
> And with respect to the specific leak mentioned earlier, "dependency
> hell", they've never been leaky in that way because that's one of their
> primary design goals.
>
> > And the fact that it doesn't interact with anything makes it less
> > integrated into your system - unless you go through a load of arcane
> > Flatpak command line arguments to make it talk to your environment.
>
> I didn't say it didn't interact.  I said it didn't _interfere_.  The
> Gnome services talk to each other over dbus etc. and of course
> Evolution is no exception.  Evolution sends notifications for new mail,
> calendar events, etc. to the desktop and all this works correctly, even
> though I'm running Gnome 3.36 and Evolution 3.46.
>
> The Evolution database etc. is maintained inside the flatpak container
> and it doesn't interfere with the system installed version (if any).
>
> I literally did NOTHING except "flatpak install org.gnome.Evolution"
> and it worked.
>
> > Yes, I know it's not that difficult, probably. But it's also not
> > always as straightforward as you are making out.
>
> Maybe not always: of course I can't speak to all flatpak packages.
>
> But for Evolution, it absolutely is.

flatpaks, et all are just as vulnerable to library faults as a regular
install...  The thing with flatpak / ubuntu'isms is they do not
publish them along with the flatpak versions...  If a flatpak is built
with lib x.y.z, you will never know bugs with lib x.y.z since it is
not published.

> I was skeptical too.  But I needed a newer Evo because my company was
> bought and switched from GMail to Exchange, so I tried it.  And, it
> Just Works.

Just Works :)

I like that!

Until it doesn't

> I do have many problems with the UI changes introduced in Evo 3.46:
> putting buttons for important things on the title bar makes NO sense.
> But, that's not an issue with the flatpak.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 17:07 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> the only tricky part is to run it in the flatpak sandbox. It's easy
> once you know how to do it:
> 
>   $ flatpak run --command=sh org.gnome.Evolution

Yes, I am familiar with this since I used it to help you debug the
issue with libsoup last month.

> you can also use:
> 
>gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.shell use-header-bar false
> 
> command to turn off header bar usage,

Oh!  This is **SO MUCH BETTER**!  Thanks Milan.  I wish this could go
back to being the default behavior but at least hopefully it won't be
removed in the future.

Cheers!
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 10:58 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> I do have many problems with the UI changes introduced in Evo 3.46:
> putting buttons for important things on the title bar makes NO sense.
> But, that's not an issue with the flatpak.

Hi,
you can also use:

   gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.shell use-header-bar false

command to turn off header bar usage, the only tricky part is to run it
in the flatpak sandbox. It's easy once you know how to do it:

  $ flatpak run --command=sh org.gnome.Evolution

which opens a command prompt inside the app's sandbox, where you can
run other commands.

Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 09:33 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> I know this is getting way of topic, but this is primarily why I shy
> away from Flatpak. You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no
> real idea what is in that - it could be some ancient bug-ridden
> library that the dev has decided to use because that's what was on
> their system then writing it 20 years ago and they can't be bothered
> to update it.

I get that people are concerned and there are some legitimate concerns.
But some of these are just due to misunderstandings or NIH syndrome.

First, flatpaks are created from a known set of content which is
described by a declarative file.  The content is controlled so you know
you're rebuilding from the same thing all the time.

Second, flatpaks for Gnome tools such as Evolution are created and
managed by the same people who create the Gnome software.  Snaps are
created by Canonical, for Ubuntu.  They're not just some random
assortment of junk that some hacker cobbled together in their basement
and tossed out on the internet.  If you trust Gnome or Canonical to
create the _software_ you run on your system it seems odd to not trust
them to build a flatpak or snap for it; really there's no one better to
do it.

The content of a flatpak/snap is actually MORE rigorously managed than
whatever assortment of package versions you have currently installed on
your system.

And yes, containers can be leaky.  In fact some of that leakage is
needed (you certainly want to be able to attach files to emails, that
exist outside the flatpak container!)  But the leaks are minimal and
getting plugged more and more every day.  They're very very good by
now.

And with respect to the specific leak mentioned earlier, "dependency
hell", they've never been leaky in that way because that's one of their
primary design goals.

> And the fact that it doesn't interact with anything makes it less
> integrated into your system - unless you go through a load of arcane
> Flatpak command line arguments to make it talk to your environment. 

I didn't say it didn't interact.  I said it didn't _interfere_.  The
Gnome services talk to each other over dbus etc. and of course
Evolution is no exception.  Evolution sends notifications for new mail,
calendar events, etc. to the desktop and all this works correctly, even
though I'm running Gnome 3.36 and Evolution 3.46.

The Evolution database etc. is maintained inside the flatpak container
and it doesn't interfere with the system installed version (if any).

I literally did NOTHING except "flatpak install org.gnome.Evolution"
and it worked.

> Yes, I know it's not that difficult, probably. But it's also not
> always as straightforward as you are making out.

Maybe not always: of course I can't speak to all flatpak packages.

But for Evolution, it absolutely is.

I was skeptical too.  But I needed a newer Evo because my company was
bought and switched from GMail to Exchange, so I tried it.  And, it
Just Works.

I do have many problems with the UI changes introduced in Evo 3.46:
putting buttons for important things on the title bar makes NO sense. 
But, that's not an issue with the flatpak.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 10:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no real
> idea what is in that

Hi,
some people may even not care of it, they just want to have things
done. ;)

For what it's worth:

   $ flatpak run --command=sh org.gnome.Evolution

   cat /usr/manifest.json
   cat /app/manifest.json

The first tells you what the runtime uses, the second what the app
uses, or better what it had been built with.

The Flathub.org Evolution uses the latest GNOME runtime, which is
updated regularly, until it gets to its end of life.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> They basically provide a fully self-contained package containing a tool
> (like Evolution) and ALL of its dependencies, as a single bundle. 
> These dependencies are not installed separately on your system: they
> are not visible to any other program "outside" the flatpak.  And the
> Evolution in the flatpak doesn't use any of your system libraries, it
> only uses the libraries in the flatpak.  So there's no way they can
> introduce dependency hell.

I know this is getting way of topic, but this is primarily why I shy
away from Flatpak. You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no real
idea what is in that - it could be some ancient bug-ridden library that
the dev has decided to use because that's what was on their system when
writing it 20 years ago and they can't be bothered to update it. It's
not a theoretical risk either: there's an application I use at my day
job and they specifically said that the only way of running it now is
to use containers because it will only work on an ancient version of
Ubuntu and so they packaged all the old libraries into a container so
they don't have to support modern systems. 

I would hope that something like Evolution is not so crass, but it
always strikes me as a way for devs and maintainers to not do it
properly!

(And yes, I understand you run the same risk with statically compiled
applications - I also don't like them.)

> 
> And if it doesn't work, well, it's a self-contained separate bundle so
> you can either just ignore it, or remove it: it doesn't interfere with
> anything else on the system.  That's the point.

And the fact that it doesn't interact with anything makes it less
integrated into your system - unless you go through a load of arcane
Flatpak command line arguments to make it talk to your environment. 

Yes, I know it's not that difficult, probably. But it's also not always
as straightforward as you are making out.

> 
> These days even the recent RedHat Enterprise distros can do an upgrade
> without reformatting the disk (finally!).

Hmm, I know Fedora does quite well at it, but I don't think I would
trust the RHEL major version upgrade - the whole point is that my big
iron has the same enterprise version for the whole of it's physical
life, it gets retired rather than upgraded!

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 16:17 -0600, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 16:34 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> > I'm not sure I understand this comment.  The whole point of flatpak
> > (and snap) is that it's not _supposed_ to need to worry about the
> > dependencies of the distribution.  That's why you'd use it.
> > 
> Which is why they are bad ideas to use. There is no way that ARCH or
> Gentoo or Kali use the same dependencies. It's called "Dependency
> Hell" and the theory of FlatPack and SNAP not needing to follow or
> use a distributions is like walking into a [...]

I'm not interested in continuing that unpleasant analogy but I think
you're confused about what flatpak and snap are and what they do. 
There _are_ reasons to want to avoid them, such as startup time and
disk space usage, perhaps memory usage, and, possibly, efficiency of
delivering security updates (but so far that has not been a problem).

However "dependency hell" is absolute NOT one of the reasons to avoid
them: "dependency hell" is exactly what these tools were invented to
solve, and they do solve it very well.

They basically provide a fully self-contained package containing a tool
(like Evolution) and ALL of its dependencies, as a single bundle. 
These dependencies are not installed separately on your system: they
are not visible to any other program "outside" the flatpak.  And the
Evolution in the flatpak doesn't use any of your system libraries, it
only uses the libraries in the flatpak.  So there's no way they can
introduce dependency hell.

As mentioned I'm using Ubuntu 20.04 which has a similar vintage of
Gnome desktop and apps, including Evolution, that the Debian stable in
question uses.  And the flatpak version of Evolution 3.46 works great
on my system.

And if it doesn't work, well, it's a self-contained separate bundle so
you can either just ignore it, or remove it: it doesn't interfere with
anything else on the system.  That's the point.

> It's WHY I run Debian, I can set up the system how I want and just
> upgrade to the newer version. No disk reformat etc etc.

Sure; I used Debian, including testing and sid, for a number of years
(5+) before I got tired of the arbitrary release cycle and switched to
Ubuntu. Ubuntu also does not require disk reformats.

These days even the recent RedHat Enterprise distros can do an upgrade
without reformatting the disk (finally!).
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike Lieberman]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 18:35 -0600, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 08:16 +0800, Mike Lieberman wrote:
> > No, Tim, I didn't miss it. I tested bookworm on a testbench machine
> > and
> > it crashed that machine. OK, it is possible that there was a
> > problem
> > with that other machine, but I couldn't risk it.
> 
> Interesting, I'm running Bookworm and the only crash I get is because
> of the Libsoup/Evolution  problem. You ran isenkram like the
> installation instructions to get the right firmware etc? 
>  
Crashed as in the disk was trashed and I'm not in the testing program
for bookworm, so I just reformatted the disk. I have enough on my
pllate now and have no interest in testing bookworm.

-- 
> > ══
> > Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog
> >   Purok 13, Morales Subd.
> >   Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
> > See MAP
> > Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text) 
> > Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
> > LandLine:  +63 (083) 887-2154 (Voice Only)
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Tim McConnell via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 08:16 +0800, Mike Lieberman wrote:
> No, Tim, I didn't miss it. I tested bookworm on a testbench machine
> and
> it crashed that machine. OK, it is possible that there was a problem
> with that other machine, but I couldn't risk it.

Interesting, I'm running Bookworm and the only crash I get is because
of the Libsoup/Evolution  problem. You ran isenkram like the
installation instructions to get the right firmware etc? 
 
-- 
Tim McConnell 
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike Lieberman]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 15:15 -0600, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 20:01 +0800, Mike Lieberman wrote:
> > The new flathub install software center is not liked by Debian. And
> > the
> > code Debian is installing is a problem.
> 
> Well you must of missed my email I sent to this list as a reply to
> you
> asking if you would be willing to upgrade to "Bookworm" which has
> version 3.46.1-1. Or if you looked at the "Backports" repo to see if
> it's there. 
> Your problem with using the flathub version is because the Flatpack
> doesn't honor the dependencies of the distribution. It would be
> better
> to upgrade your sources.list file to Bookworm or testing. and then
> run
> apt-get dist-upgrade --install-suggests -f -m -y and all the
> dependencies should be resolved. Currently your have FrankenDebian. 

No, Tim, I didn't miss it. I tested bookworm on a testbench machine and
it crashed that machine. OK, it is possible that there was a problem
with that other machine, but I couldn't risk it.
>  

-- 
> > ══
> > Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog
> >   Purok 13, Morales Subd.
> >   Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
> > See MAP
> > Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text) 
> > Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
> > LandLine:  +63 (083) 887-2154 (Voice Only)
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Tim McConnell via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 16:34 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand this comment.  The whole point of flatpak
> (and snap) is that it's not _supposed_ to need to worry about the
> dependencies of the distribution.  That's why you'd use it.
> 
Which is why they are bad ideas to use. There is no way that ARCH or
Gentoo or Kali use the same dependencies. It's called "Dependency Hell"
and the theory of FlatPack and SNAP not needing to follow or use a
distributions is like walking into a whorehouse, naked and having a
million dollars taped to you body. You know you're going to get screwed
but you don't know what else you'll get or if it's curable. 

Changing from "Stable" to "Testing" is trivial and when the apt-get
dist-upgrade command gets ran at the release for the newer version it's
basically going to do a Distribution Upgrade; it'll move you to the
newer version. It's WHY I run Debian, I can set up the system how I
want and just upgrade to the newer version. No disk reformat etc etc. 
In Testing "Bookworm" the Evolution version is 3.46.1-1  currently. So
basically you're on the same distro, just the newer version before the
release. 

-- 
Tim McConnell 
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 15:15 -0600, Tim McConnell wrote:
> Your problem with using the flathub version is because the Flatpack
> doesn't honor the dependencies of the distribution.

I'm not sure I understand this comment.  The whole point of flatpak
(and snap) is that it's not _supposed_ to need to worry about the
dependencies of the distribution.  That's why you'd use it.

I am using Ubuntu 20.04 which also provides Evolution 3.36 standard. 
I'm not ready to upgrade my distribution, but I definitely need a newer
Evolution.  So, I've installed the flatpak version of Evolution 4.46
and it runs fine for me (except for known issues with this release):

  ~$ flatpak list
  NameApplication ID Version Branch Installation
   ...
  Evolution   org.gnome.Evolution3.46.1  stable system
   ...

I'm not sure about Debian but I don't see why it would be different.

Personally I'd be much more wary of changing sources.list to a
different distro and just upgrading: that seems like a good way to get
a broken system.  At least if the flatpak doesn't work it's trivial to
get rid of it.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Tim McConnell via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 20:01 +0800, Mike Lieberman wrote:
> The new flathub install software center is not liked by Debian. And
> the
> code Debian is installing is a problem.

Well you must of missed my email I sent to this list as a reply to you
asking if you would be willing to upgrade to "Bookworm" which has
version 3.46.1-1. Or if you looked at the "Backports" repo to see if
it's there. 
Your problem with using the flathub version is because the Flatpack
doesn't honor the dependencies of the distribution. It would be better
to upgrade your sources.list file to Bookworm or testing. and then run
apt-get dist-upgrade --install-suggests -f -m -y and all the
dependencies should be resolved. Currently your have FrankenDebian. 
 
-- 
Tim McConnell 
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Sun, 2022-11-06 at 07:07 +0100, Mike wrote:
> Nov  6 12:36:39 blackbox evolution[11523]: Failed to add service
> 'News and Blogs' (rss): No provider available for protocol “rss”

Hi,
I guess, and only guess, you managed to mix different versions of
evolution, even you claimed earlier you move backup between two same
installations, only between VM and bare metal. I guess you've mixed
things up because the "rss protocol" is a new thing in 3.46.0. It can
be a leftover after your experiments, I do not know, but the 'rss'
definition comes from a file in the system directory.

> Nov  6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]: . table Inbox has 30
> columns but 28 values were supplied

This one is another indication of the version mismatch, when you move
from a newer evolution to an older evolution. There is a migration
code, but it works only in the opposite way, from older to newer
version (or the migration was not executed, because the version stored
in the GSettings was higher than it was supposed to be). The above
error specifically should should be visible also in the GUI, when you
select that folder. It prevents showing the folder content, which is
one of the problems you face.

I suggest you start from scratch. Either as a new user, or clean all
the evolution settings and data, not only the ~/.config/evolution/.
Uninstalling the app will not help, this data is independent of the
installation, and, more importantly, some of this data is used by the
evolution-data-server background processes, which is shared with the
desktop or other apps. The background processes run as part of the GUI,
thus when you play with the underlying files, you need to make sure the
background processes are not running, and/or you need to restart them
when you are done with the changes, otherwise weird things happen. Note
playing with underlying app files is something you should not (usually)
do, it is expected to be harder to do it and you can break the app,
which is what already happened.

To start from scratch, see here what locations are used:
https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/data-storage.html

Do not remove the GSettings (DConf) directory, it holds all your
settings, not only for Evolution. You can use something like:

   $ gsettings reset-recursively org.gnome.evolution-data-server
   $ gsettings reset-recursively org.gnome.evolution

to unset your modifications (I didn't try the commands, maybe the
syntax is slightly different). After this restart the machine and only
then import your data from the VM. If the both evolution versions are
the same on both machines, the same as the evolution-data-server
versions, then the restore should be flawless.

You can/should do another restart after restore, or run
`evolution --force-shutdown` to restart also the background processes,
though it should not be needed even on your ancient version.

Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Paul Smith]

On Sun, 2022-11-06 at 06:07 +, Mike wrote:
> I purged evolution from the PC, deleted the .config/evolution
> folders, deleted the trash, rebooted, reinstalled at 12:36 and ran it
> at 12:37. I did not import the backup file, so that isn't the
> problem.
> 
> None of these errors are in the VM install though the VM install
> happened only five days ago, both via ftp.debian.org via apt-get onto
> the same computer (one instance the VirtualBox Debian 11.5 and the
> other on the actual hardware running Debian 11.5)  
> 
> Without importing the backup, I see this:

Hi Mike. All of these log messages are just warnings about the
codebase, which should be fixed but don't have any direct impact on the
application (most likely) [1].

Although there are lots of scary messages here it APPEARS that
everything came up successfully. Above you say "that isn't the
problem", but you didn't describe what the problem is.

When you start Evolution (without importing the backup file) what
issues do you have?

The important information we must have to start thinking about a
problem is:

 * The version of Evolution you're using (not the version of the
   distribution or desktop).  You can use Help -> About to find this.
 * The type of email server you are using (IMAP, POP, EWS, etc.) and
   any special/non-default settings you use with it.
 * A concise explanation of the problem you are having.

All the rest of the details, such as which desktop you're using, what
was imported, etc. are almost certainly not relevant (unless the
problem is related to a failure to import etc.) It's fine to include
them but please format your question so that the most relevant details
are clearly stated up at the top, so we don't have to spelunk a long
email of other details to dig them out.

Also helpful is to use a subject line that encapsulates the problem
you're having in a short sentence, rather than one that doesn't help us
find this issue in archives etc.

And finally, it's helpful to us as readers if you avoid complex/fancy
HTML signatures, etc. and stick with just plain text as much as
possible. And we do appreciate if you can trim your replies to contain
only the specific text you're replying to, and not include the entire
email thread in your reply. We have mailing list archives for anyone
who wants to see the history, and including replies makes those more
difficult to read. Evolution makes this easy: just select (with your
mouse) the text you want to reply to and then hit the reply button, and
only that text will be quoted in the reply.

I feel like we got off on lots of probably-not-relevant tangents such
as whether it's better to use a local IMAP server, etc. These are
interesting topics but I doubt very much they're related to the issues
you're seeing.

Perhaps it's best to start a new thread with the details needed to
address one specific problem you are having and see if we can solve it.

Hopefully we can help!!


[1] Just to note, you are using (if I recall correctly) a pretty old
version of Evolution. The current version is 3.46. You are using 3.38
which is 4 releases ago. It's not going to be the case that these types
of warnings will ever be addressed in that old version.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-11-06 at 06:07 +, Mike wrote:
> I purged evolution from the PC, deleted the .config/evolution
> folders, deleted the trash, rebooted, reinstalled at 12:36 and ran it
> at 12:37. I did not import the backup file, so that isn't the
> problem.
> None of these errors are in the VM install though the VM install
> happened only five days ago, both via ftp.debian.org via apt-get onto
> the same computer (one instance the VirtualBox Debian 11.5 and the
> other on the actual hardware running Debian 11.5) 
[...]

This is really quite difficult to read. Please refrain from posting in
HTML on this list, or replying on HTML formatting to make the post
readable. The standard used here is plain text, and most people don't
even look at the HTML version if it exists.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike]

I purged evolution from the PC, deleted the .config/evolution folders, deleted 
the trash, rebooted, reinstalled at 12:36 and ran it at 12:37. I did not import 
the backup file, so that isn't the problem.
None of these errors are in the VM install though the VM install happened only 
five days ago, both via ftp.debian.org via apt-get onto the same computer (one 
instance the VirtualBox Debian 11.5 and the other on the actual hardware 
running Debian 11.5)
Without importing the backup, I see this:
Nov 6 12:36:39 blackbox evolution[11523]: Failed to add service 'News and 
Blogs' (rss): No provider available for protocol “rss”
Nov 6 12:36:39 blackbox org.gnome.Evolution.desktop[11550]: ** (process:2): 
WARNING **: 12:36:39.790: Error writing credentials to socket: Error sending 
message: Broken pipe
Nov 6 12:36:39 blackbox evolution-alarm[11535]: Your application did not 
unregister from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run().
Nov 6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]: GError set over the top of a previous 
GError or uninitialized memory.#012This indicates a bug in someone's code. You 
must ensure an error is NULL before it's set.#012The overwriting error message 
was: table Inbox has 30 columns but 28 values were supplied
Nov 6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]: GError set over the top of a previous 
GError or uninitialized memory.#012This indicates a bug in someone's code. You 
must ensure an error is NULL before it's set.#012The overwriting error message 
was: table Inbox has 30 columns but 28 values were supplied
Nov 6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]: 
CamelMaildirFolder::synchronize_sync() set its GError but then reported success
Nov 6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]: Error message was: table Inbox has 30 
columns but 28 values were supplied
Nov 6 12:36:52 blackbox evolution[11523]: Your application did not unregister 
from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run().
Nov 6 12:36:52 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution-11523.scope: Succeeded.
Nov 6 12:36:52 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution-11523.scope: Consumed 3.487s CPU time.
Nov 6 12:37:17 blackbox evolution[11740]: Failed to add service 'News and 
Blogs' (rss): No provider available for protocol “rss”
Nov 6 12:37:17 blackbox org.gnome.Evolution.desktop[11768]: ** (process:2): 
WARNING **: 12:37:17.932: Error writing credentials to socket: Error sending 
message: Broken pipe
Nov 6 12:37:18 blackbox evolution-alarm[11753]: Your application did not 
unregister from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run().
Nov 6 12:37:39 blackbox dbus-daemon[936]: [system] Activating via systemd: 
service name='org.freedesktop.hostname1' 
unit='dbus-org.freedesktop.hostname1.service' requested by ':1.248' (uid00 
pid740 comm="evolution ")
Nov 6 13:37:35 blackbox gvfsd-trash[2961]: dir: 
/home/mike/.local/share/Trash/files, file: evolution, type: 4#012
Nov 6 13:37:35 blackbox gvfsd-trash[2961]: dir: 
/home/mike/.local/share/Trash/files, file: evolution, type: 4#012
Nov 6 13:39:12 blackbox evolution[11740]: Your application did not unregister 
from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run().
Nov 6 13:39:12 blackbox evolution[11740]: Lock file deletion failed: No such 
file or directory
Nov 6 13:39:12 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution-11740.scope: Succeeded.
Nov 6 13:39:12 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution-11740.scope: Consumed 13.467s CPU time.
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox evolution-addre[1885]: Error setting property 
'ConnectionStatus' on interface org.gnome.evolution.dataserver.Source: The 
connection is closed (g-io-error-quark, 18)
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox systemd[1504]: evolution-source-registry.service: 
Succeeded.
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox systemd[1504]: evolution-calendar-factory.service: 
Succeeded.
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox systemd[1504]: evolution-addressbook-factory.service: 
Succeeded.
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution\x2dalarm\x2dnotify-1992.scope: Succeeded.
Nov 6 13:39:36 blackbox systemd[1504]: 
app-gnome-org.gnome.Evolution\x2dalarm\x2dnotify-1992.scope: Consumed 1.454s 
CPU time.
══
Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog 

Purok 13, Morales Subd.
Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
See MAP 
Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text)
Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
LandLine: " style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">+63 
(083) 887-2154  (Voice Only)
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is
> there) only a day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new
> mail.
> 
> It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
> nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

How do you retrieve the mail into Evolution from your server?

Are you sure you don't have a search active?

Please look at Help -> Contents -> Common mail questions
 -> I cannot see some emails ...

> 
> Every once and a while I got a UID error message about a problem, but
> it wasn't all the time. 

What is the error message?  This sort of implies you use POP.

> 
> I used apt to remove the package. I deleted the folders, and then
> deleted the trash, rebooting the PC immediately after that. 

Re-installing rarely solves problems.  

Which folders did you delete?  You need to remove all the configuration
as well as the actual mails. The locations of everything is in the Help
system.

Do you still have the PST files?  Rather than moving things from the VM
can you just re-import the PST files.

> 
> I really wanted Evolution to work. It is now the repository for all I
> have done in these last thirty years, but unless there is a way to
> fix what ails this program, while it allowed me to make the move off
> Windows, it is now only a vault for old emails and that is not good.

A possible route is to install an IMAP server on your mail server - I
run Exim & Dovecot on single CPU VMs and it barely registers a load
level.  Then connect the Evolution on the VM to that server and copy
everything on to IMAP. Then on your "real" Evolution, just set it up to
use IMAP and leave it like that. Your mail will then be stored on the
server and you don't need to worry about overloading. Your incoming
mail server will be able to put mail directly into the IMAP server's
data store - and Hey Presto! you've got a resilient setup and you can
use multiple clients to get at your mail.

But I will just add that your level of mail is easily handled by
Evolution.  There should not be any limit that you will be able to
reach so long as your mail store is set to Maildir which has been the
default for a long time.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia  5.11.2022 o godz. 02:34:55 Steve Litt pisze:
> 
> I have 20 years and probably more email messages than you spoke of. I
> don't think any email client on earth is built to hold that volume of
> email.

I have probably a more than 20 years mail archive. Mutt (running directly on
the server and accessing directly Maildirs on the server) handles it without
any problem.

Yes, I use Dovecot (and Evolution as IMAP client) as well, for emails that
are written in HTML only, have big image attachments etc. But I handle most
of my mail by ssh'ing to the server and running Mutt directly there. With
absolutely no issues.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 02:12 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> Not that it really matters now, but top-posting & HTML mail is
> frowned
> on here ...
> 
> And your quoting levels are screwed up ...
> 
> And you really should trim posts to just relevant stuff.  You aren't
> inhabiting an Outlook only world these days ...
> 
> On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:46 +, Mike wrote:
> > > Yes the VM is, and was, off.
> > > 
> > > And anyway, both are set to leave mail on the server for six days
> > > during this rollout of the new platform. So it should not make a
> > > difference. :-) I have a mail app running on my Adroid Cell phone
> > > and it loaded mail right along with MS Outlook for many years
> > > without an issue. So I fail to see how that would or should
> > > matter.
> 
> Because sometimes another application grabs an email and marks it as
> read before your Evolution can see it. 
> 
> Anyway, in another email that seems to have been tagged as spam and
> is
> awaiting moderation I said that you need to look at the bar above the
> message list and make sure the "Show:" drop down says "All Messages"
> and not something like "Read Messages".
> 
> But I see yet another of my messages has been tagged as spam for no
> good reason.  You might, eventually, see this message ...

Pete, I've no idea why some of your posts were held for moderation.
I've approved them and they should have appeared by now.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

Not that it really matters now, but top-posting & HTML mail is frowned
on here ...

And your quoting levels are screwed up ...

And you really should trim posts to just relevant stuff.  You aren't
inhabiting an Outlook only world these days ...

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:46 +, Mike wrote:
> > Yes the VM is, and was, off.
> > 
> > And anyway, both are set to leave mail on the server for six days
> > during this rollout of the new platform. So it should not make a
> > difference. :-) I have a mail app running on my Adroid Cell phone
> > and it loaded mail right along with MS Outlook for many years
> > without an issue. So I fail to see how that would or should matter.

Because sometimes another application grabs an email and marks it as
read before your Evolution can see it. 

Anyway, in another email that seems to have been tagged as spam and is
awaiting moderation I said that you need to look at the bar above the
message list and make sure the "Show:" drop down says "All Messages"
and not something like "Read Messages".

But I see yet another of my messages has been tagged as spam for no
good reason.  You might, eventually, see this message ...

P.



> 

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
> This is my first post here and it is a long one.
> 
> I did look at the index of previous posts but there is no way to
> search through all of them, so I truly do apologize in advance... 

Go to 

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/

and there's a search box at the top.

> 
> 
> On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is
> there) only a day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new
> mail.
> 
> It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
> nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

Help -> Contents -> Common Mail Questions 
 -> I cannot see some emails

Primarily check that you don't have any search terms imposed and that
the Show: next to the search box is set to "All Messages".


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike]

I see the All messages and it is the selected option. So that is not the issue.
══
Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog 

Purok 13, Morales Subd.
Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
See MAP 
Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text)
Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
LandLine: " style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">+63 
(083) 887-2154  (Voice Only)
Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote:
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical
Debian platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB.
Hi,
ok, I missed the information "gz package". Perhaps you need to move the
data by just coping folders. But for the moment let's forget about this
and check something else.
It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.
Select the Inbox folder. On top, beside the search bar, there's a
"Show:" box. If it doesn't show "All Messages" or "Unread Messages",
then select either one or the other. Perhaps you accidentally moved the
scroll wheel, while the mouse cursor hovered over this box and you might
have selected "Read Messages" or something else.
After you corrected this for the Inbox, check other folders, too.
Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 08:07 +, Mike wrote:
> The VM is on the same hardware as the new desktop.

Ok, we can tolerate top posting, HTML and untrimmed posts, even while
you were asked to at least not top post and to trim quotes.

At least I can't tolerate that you copied the content of an email into
another thread.

Please, reply to your thread, don't hijack another completely unrelated
thread.
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Steve Litt]

Mike said on Sat, 05 Nov 2022 07:11:27 +

>Steve is it 27 years and my mail server (mail.netwright.net) sits a
>meter from my left leg. 

[snip]

>That server by my left leg is doing quite a bit, BIND, apache2 web, 
>Intermapper network monitoring as well as the mail server software.

By mail server software do you mean SMTP, or IMAP, or something else?

>[It is running as a Debian VM on Core i3 processor. :-) Did I mention
>that I am retired and no longer have big iron?] So it isn't a good
>depository for my mail. 

The htop program tells me my Dovecot is using 0% CPU, 0% memory, so I
doubt it would tax your i3. At worst you might need to buy a big 7200
RPM spinning rust disk to add to your existing disks.


>If you and other are say evolution can't do it, (even though it runs
>like a champ on a VM I created on my desktop) then I will leave it as
>a repository for my other mail and move on. However, it has been my
>experience that there is a potential bias from those who do things
>differently to say, 'it can't do that' when they really don't know.

I think my words were "I don't think any email client on earth is built
to hold that volume of email." I didn't say it was impossible: I was
saying it's an off-label use and probably has side effects. And also
that it locks you to a single email client.

If you think you can use Evolution to store 27 years of email, go for
it. I was just trying to be helpful by describing the setup I've enjoyed
for ten years, on three different distros. 

>Clearly it is doing fine on the VM.

Then it should be pretty easy to exploit the differences between the
metal version and the VM version to figure out the root cause of the
metal version's problem.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
> I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical
> Debian platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB.

Hi,

ok, I missed the information "gz package". Perhaps you need to move the
data by just coping folders. But for the moment let's forget about this
and check something else.

> It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
> nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

Select the Inbox folder. On top, beside the search bar, there's a
"Show:" box. If it doesn't show "All Messages" or "Unread Messages",
then select either one or the other. Perhaps you accidentally moved the
scroll wheel, while the mouse cursor hovered over this box and you might
have selected "Read Messages" or something else.

After you corrected this for the Inbox, check other folders, too.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 02:34 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> I have 20 years and probably more email messages than you spoke of. I
> don't think any email client on earth is built to hold that volume of
> email.

Hi,

Evolution can handle >1 decade with lots of POP accounts, archiving lots
of heavy traffic mailing lists and countless private mails. There isn't
a trace to assume that it might change.

Later I started using Claws parallel to Evolution and a while back I
discontinued using Claws. I don't know if the amount of emails is
related to the issues I experienced with Claws.

If it should be different when using Evolution with IMAP, then it would
be another reason to be in favour of POP.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike]

Steve is it 27 years and my mail server (mail.netwright.net) sits a meter
from my left leg.
I don't use a third party for email. Never have since 1994, when I set up
my first mail server on a unit running Slackware Unix. [Believe it or not,
rather than running Sendmail, I was using server software from a company --
long gone -- which was called alibaba.com (funny how the name popped up
again in the oddest of ways).] And then to mail server software called
Merak on a WIndows box before switching Debian 4 or 5 and Surgemail which I
am still running.
That server by my left leg is doing quite a bit, BIND, apache2 web,
Intermapper network monitoring as well as the mail server software. [It is
running as a Debian VM on Core i3 processor. :-) Did I mention that I am
retired and no longer have big iron?] So it isn't a good depository for my
mail.
If you and other are say evolution can't do it, (even though it runs like a
champ on a VM I created on my desktop) then I will leave it as a repository
for my other mail and move on. However, it has been my experience that
there is a potential bias from those who do things differently to say, 'it
can't do that' when they really don't know. Clearly it is doing fine on the
VM. It was the export to the true desktop and the import on that new
desktop that seems to have created the problem.
[Yours were the same complaints I head about Outlook and the size of the
mail. So I broke the PST's up and never had a problem, over five separate
PC's as the PST's were exportable and backups are great things. so long as
there is code that can import the backup.]
The only reason I chose evolution was because it could import the PST files
(multiple ones) I kept mail in in Outlook. In Outlook, my current mail was
not in the same data file as the archive mail.
Steve Litt wrote:
Mike said on Fri, 04 Nov 2022 13:23:37 +
[snip apologies.
Until seven days ago, and for thirty years prior to
that, I was a user of Microsoft Office Outlook. (That's the client on
the desktop, not the online service.) I had thirty years of business
and personal correspondence in it. A lot of it in many, many folders
and nested folders.) It is what kept me on Windows on this last PC
when everything else I had was running Debian Linux.
[snip explanation of no new emails]
I have 20 years and probably more email messages than you spoke of. I
don't think any email client on earth is built to hold that volume of
email.
But the Dovecot IMAP server is, and handles it with ease and grace. My
email client is simply a window into my IMAP server (plus of course a
way to compose and send). It's been working this way, without a hitch,
since 2012.
An added bonus of using Dovecot is my email archives are no longer tied
to a specific email client. When I got angry at Claws-Mail a few months
ago, I quickly and easily switched to Evolution, with no data transfer
or conversion. When it looked like the mailing list I rely on would
vanish, I went back to Claws-Mail, no hassle. If and when the mailing
list gets resolved, I'll switch back to Evolution, no hassle.
An email client might be a good place to store four figures of emails,
but beyond that, in my opinion, a local Dovecot server is the way to go.
SteveT
Steve Litt
Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Steve Litt]

Mike said on Fri, 04 Nov 2022 13:23:37 +

[snip apologies.

>Until seven days ago, and for thirty years prior to
>that, I was a user of Microsoft Office Outlook. (That's the client on
>the desktop, not the online service.) I had thirty years of business
>and personal correspondence in it. A lot of it in many, many folders
>and nested folders.) It is what kept me on Windows on this last PC
>when everything else I had was running Debian Linux. 

[snip explanation of no new emails]

I have 20 years and probably more email messages than you spoke of. I
don't think any email client on earth is built to hold that volume of
email.

But the Dovecot IMAP server is, and handles it with ease and grace. My
email client is simply a window into my IMAP server (plus of course a
way to compose and send). It's been working this way, without a hitch,
since 2012.

An added bonus of using Dovecot is my email archives are no longer tied
to a specific email client. When I got angry at Claws-Mail a few months
ago, I quickly and easily switched to Evolution, with no data transfer
or conversion. When it looked like the mailing list I rely on would
vanish, I went back to Claws-Mail, no hassle. If and when the mailing
list gets resolved, I'll switch back to Evolution, no hassle.

An email client might be a good place to store four figures of emails,
but beyond that, in my opinion, a local Dovecot server is the way to go.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike]

Yes the VM is, and was, off.
And anyway, both are set to leave mail on the server for six days during this 
rollout of the new platform. So it should not make a difference. :-) I have a 
mail app running on my Adroid Cell phone and it loaded mail right along with MS 
Outlook for many years without an issue. So I fail to see how that would or 
should matter.
══
Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog 
<http://lieberman.blog.netwright.net:7080/>
Purok 13, Morales Subd.
Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
See MAP <https://map.what3words.com/overexposed.pedestals.rakes>
Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text)
Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
LandLine: " style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">+63 
(083) 887-2154  (Voice Only)
Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list wrote:
Hi Mike,
I have no direct idea about your problem other then a suggestion.
Make sure your VM is OFF. Otherwise it might be that the VM is grabbing the 
mail before your "live" one and then its not available to the live one to down 
load.
I might be 100% off track but its just a simple idea, easy to test and if I am 
correct very easy for you to solve (no reinstall etc).
--
Thanks Luigi Cantoni
-Original Message-
From: Mike mailto:mike%20%3cm...@netwright.net%3e> >
To: evolution-list@gnome.org <mailto:evolution-list@gnome.org>
Subject: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2022 13:23:37 +
Mailer: Desktop
This is my first post here and it is a long one.
I did look at the index of previous posts but there is no way to search through 
all of them, so I truly do apologize in advance... but maybe, just maybe what I 
did has pushed out a bug you didn't know about before. This is complicated. I 
am sorry, but if you don't have all of the info, you will accuse me, 
potentially of hiding the relevant facts:
Until seven days ago, and for thirty years prior to that, I was a user of 
Microsoft Office Outlook. (That's the client on the desktop, not the online 
service.) I had thirty years of business and personal correspondence in it. A 
lot of it in many, many folders and nested folders.) It is what kept me on 
Windows on this last PC when everything else I had was running Debian Linux.
But then I saw that, maybe, I could actually import the PSTs into this release 
of Evolution. I had tried in the past and it had failed miserably. I tried anew 
and it worked on a test VM machine. It was all good and so I made the leap, 
reformatting the Windows 10 computer and put Debian 11.5 on it.
I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical Debian 
platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB.
I still have the VM and can run it, though I don't want to use it as a work 
platform.
On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is there) only a 
day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new mail.
It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is nothing in the 
inbox or anywhere else.
-- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same.
-- Both are running on Debian 11.5.
-- On the VM Evolution still works.
If I sent mail, it did get sent, but it also didn't appear in the sent folder 
or anywhere else.
Every once and a while I got a UID error message about a problem, but it wasn't 
all the time.
I used apt to remove the package. I deleted the folders, and then deleted the 
trash, rebooting the PC immediately after that.
I ran the VM version for another day, (and it works to this moment, if I want 
to use the VM) and then made a fresh export from the VM version, sFTPing it to 
the physical machine. But the same problem existed on the re-installed version.
I was on KDE Plasma, so I tried the same procedure all over again installing it 
under Gnome-X. No difference.
The only difference between the VM and this platform is that one has a cinnamon 
desktop.
I really wanted Evolution to work. It is now the repository for all I have done 
in these last thirty years, but unless there is a way to fix what ails this 
program, while it allowed me to make the move off Windows, it is now only a 
vault for old emails and that is not good.
══
Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog 
<http://lieberman.blog.netwright.net:7080/>
Purok 13, Morales Subd.
Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
See MAP <https://map.what3words.com/overexposed.pedestals.rakes>
Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text)
Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
LandLine: " style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">+63 
(083) 887-2154  (Voice Only)
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list]

Hi Mike,
I have no direct idea about your problem other then a suggestion.
Make sure your VM is OFF. Otherwise it might be that the VM is grabbing
the mail before your "live" one and then its not available to the live
one to down load.
I might be 100% off track but its just a simple idea, easy to test and
if I am correct very easy for you to solve (no reinstall etc).

-- 
Thanks Luigi Cantoni

-Original Message-
From: Mike 
To: evolution-list@gnome.org
Subject: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is
designed to go?
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2022 13:23:37 +
Mailer: Desktop

This is my first post here and it is a long one.

I did look at the index of previous posts but there is no way to search
through all of them, so I truly do apologize in advance... but maybe,
just maybe what I did has pushed out a bug you didn't know about
before. This is complicated. I am sorry, but if you don't have all of
the info, you will accuse me, potentially of hiding the relevant facts:

Until seven days ago, and for thirty years prior to that, I was a user
of Microsoft Office Outlook. (That's the client on the desktop, not the
online service.) I had thirty years of business and personal
correspondence in it. A lot of it in many, many folders and nested
folders.) It is what kept me on Windows on this last PC when everything
else I had was running Debian Linux. 

But then I saw that, maybe, I could actually import the PSTs into this
release of Evolution.  I had tried in the past and it had failed
miserably. I tried anew and it worked on a test VM machine. It was all
good and so I made the leap, reformatting the Windows 10 computer and
put Debian 11.5 on it. 

I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical
Debian platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB. 

I still have the VM and can run it, though I don't want to use it as a
work platform. 

On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is there)
only a day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new mail.

It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

-- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the
same. 
-- Both are running on Debian 11.5. 
-- On the VM Evolution still works. 
If I sent mail, it did get sent, but it also didn't appear in the sent
folder or anywhere else. 

Every once and a while I got a UID error message about a problem, but
it wasn't all the time. 

I used apt to remove the package. I deleted the folders, and then
deleted the trash, rebooting the PC immediately after that. 

I ran the VM version for another day, (and it works to this moment, if
I want to use the VM) and then made a fresh export from the VM version,
sFTPing it to the physical machine. But the same problem existed on the
re-installed version. 

I was on KDE Plasma, so I tried the same procedure all over again
installing it under Gnome-X. No difference. 

The only difference between the VM and this platform is that one has a
cinnamon desktop. 

I really wanted Evolution to work. It is now the repository for all I
have done in these last thirty years, but unless there is a way to fix
what ails this program, while it allowed me to make the move off
Windows, it is now only a vault for old emails and that is not good.

> > ══
> > Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog
> >       Purok 13, Morales Subd.
> >       Brgy Mabuhay, General Santos City, 9500 Philippines
> >         See MAP
> > Cell: +63 (917) 311-0674 (Globe: Voice and Text) 
> > Cell: +63 (991) 650-7948 (Dito: Voice and Text)
> > LandLine:  +63 (083) 887-2154 (Voice Only)
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Tim McConnell via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 14:58 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> >  Forwarded Message 
> > From:    Mike
> > To:  Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
> > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is
> >  designed to go?
> > Date:    04/11/22 14:42:15
> > 
> > It is from the Debian maintainer as I install with: sudo apt-get
> > install evolution
> > 
> > Unless a package can't be installed that way I always use the
> > officlal
> > maintainer version. This version is 3.38.3-1 
> > 
> > ══
> > Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman [snip]
> > 
> > Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> 
> Hi,
> 
> please, next time reply to the list and add your reply below a
> trimmed
> quote. I suspect it's ok to forward this off-list mail (with some
> trimming done by me) to the list ;).
> 
> Regards,
> Ralf
> ___
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Hi Mike, 
I'm on Debian testing (Bookworm), which has version 3.46.1-1. The
version in Stable has some "finicky"behaviors. It honestly wouldn't be
a surprise if changing to Bookworm or testing resolves the issue. 
All you would need to do is in your /etc/apt/sources.list file change
everything that says "Stable" or "Bullseye" to "Bookworm' or "testing"
(as sudo or root) then use the update command (apt update or apt-get
update) to get the newest files. Then run apt-get dist-upgrade -f -m
and you should be on the newer version. 
As a footnote, If you change to "testing" then when Bookworm becomes
the next "stable" version you'll get what is now called "SID" or
"volatile". If you edit sources.list to have Bookworm it will stop at
the Bookworm version which will be the next "stable" release
(approximately April 2023 if the rumors are correct).   
I hope that helps. 
  
-- 
Tim McConnell 
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:51 +, Mike wrote:
> Sorry, I missread. I downloaded the the DVD Debian non-free install
> package from debian.org directly.

No you understood correctly, all the information I recommended to
provide, when sending a request to the list, is the version of
Evolution. I can't help you with this issue, but much likely somebody
else has got an idea. However, again, don't forget to reply to the list,
evolution-list@gnome.org .
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

>  Forwarded Message 
> From:Mike
> To:  Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
> Subject: Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is
>          designed to go?
> Date:04/11/22 14:42:15
> 
> It is from the Debian maintainer as I install with: sudo apt-get
> install evolution
> 
> Unless a package can't be installed that way I always use the officlal
> maintainer version. This version is 3.38.3-1 
> 
> ══
> Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman [snip]
> 
> Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote:
> 
> [snip]

Hi,

please, next time reply to the list and add your reply below a trimmed
quote. I suspect it's ok to forward this off-list mail (with some
trimming done by me) to the list ;).

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 14:37 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
> > -- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same. 
> > -- Both are running on Debian 11.5.
> 
> and this version is? The Debian 11.5 version from official repos or from
> another source? I don't know, but maybe this information is useful.
> 
>   Help > About
> 
> or
> 
>   $ evolution --version

PS:

https://www.debian.org/News/2022/2022091002
IIUC 11.5 is "stable"

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/evolution
IIUC Evolution for "stable" is version 3.38.3

Is this correct?

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
> -- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same. 
> -- Both are running on Debian 11.5.

Hi,

and this version is? The Debian 11.5 version from official repos or from
another source? I don't know, but maybe this information is useful.

  Help > About

or

  $ evolution --version

Regards,
Ralf

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[Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Mike]

This is my first post here and it is a long one.
I did look at the index of previous posts but there is no way to search through 
all of them, so I truly do apologize in advance... but maybe, just maybe what I 
did has pushed out a bug you didn't know about before. This is complicated. I 
am sorry, but if you don't have all of the info, you will accuse me, 
potentially of hiding the relevant facts:
Until seven days ago, and for thirty years prior to that, I was a user of 
Microsoft Office Outlook. (That's the client on the desktop, not the online 
service.) I had thirty years of business and personal correspondence in it. A 
lot of it in many, many folders and nested folders.) It is what kept me on 
Windows on this last PC when everything else I had was running Debian Linux.
But then I saw that, maybe, I could actually import the PSTs into this release 
of Evolution. I had tried in the past and it had failed miserably. I tried anew 
and it worked on a test VM machine. It was all good and so I made the leap, 
reformatting the Windows 10 computer and put Debian 11.5 on it.
I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical Debian 
platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB.
I still have the VM and can run it, though I don't want to use it as a work 
platform.
On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is there) only a 
day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new mail.
It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is nothing in the 
inbox or anywhere else.
-- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same.
-- Both are running on Debian 11.5.
-- On the VM Evolution still works.
If I sent mail, it did get sent, but it also didn't appear in the sent folder 
or anywhere else.
Every once and a while I got a UID error message about a problem, but it wasn't 
all the time.
I used apt to remove the package. I deleted the folders, and then deleted the 
trash, rebooting the PC immediately after that.
I ran the VM version for another day, (and it works to this moment, if I want 
to use the VM) and then made a fresh export from the VM version, sFTPing it to 
the physical machine. But the same problem existed on the re-installed version.
I was on KDE Plasma, so I tried the same procedure all over again installing it 
under Gnome-X. No difference.
The only difference between the VM and this platform is that one has a cinnamon 
desktop.
I really wanted Evolution to work. It is now the repository for all I have done 
in these last thirty years, but unless there is a way to fix what ails this 
program, while it allowed me to make the move off Windows, it is now only a 
vault for old emails and that is not good.
══
Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman | Blog 

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