[Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.

As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
contributors find the same thing.

An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
presumably the author's personal address.

This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
case with these lists so nothing is lost.

(Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
thread about munging, which that list does do.)

poc

PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you
*really* want to say something to me personally :-)

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Sylvia Sánchez]

Totally agree.  At least, it could be a "reply-to-list" button in the
toolbar or right-clicking.  




El lun, 12-07-2010 a las 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan escribió:

> Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> 
> As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> contributors find the same thing.
> 
> An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> presumably the author's personal address.
> 
> This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
> don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
> a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
> case with these lists so nothing is lost.
> 
> (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
> thread about munging, which that list does do.)
> 
> poc
> 
> PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you
> *really* want to say something to me personally :-)
> 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Bart]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 13:43 -0300, Sylvia Sánchez wrote:
> 
> Totally agree.  At least, it could be a "reply-to-list" button in the
> toolbar or right-clicking.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El lun, 12-07-2010 a las 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan escribió: 
> > Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> > 
> > As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> > deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> > address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> > Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> > Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> > contributors find the same thing.
> > 
> > An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> > being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> > as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> > case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> > presumably the author's personal address.
> > 
> > This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
> > don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
> > a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
> > case with these lists so nothing is lost.
> > 
> > (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
> > thread about munging, which that list does do.)
> > 
> > poc
> > 
> > PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you
> > *really* want to say something to me personally :-)
> > 

Add my name to the list.  Not this one, the evo list, I mean the one
you're creating with this request, of people. :-)

How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if it's
going to a list, nags you if you've top posted?  

Bart

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote:
> How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if
> it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted?  

It's tempting ... :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> 
> As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> contributors find the same thing.
> 
> An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> presumably the author's personal address.

I've filed an Enhancement Request at
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204
Feel free to add comments there.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
[...]
> I've filed an Enhancement Request at
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204
> Feel free to add comments there.

Matthew Barnes has shown interest in implementing this but wants to get
a sense of whether people are generally in favour or not. I'd like to
ask you to take a look at the proposal at the above URL and either add
comments on the BZ page itself or in this list thread. We'd be
particularly interested in hearing any arguments as to why this would
*not* be a good idea.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[chen]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 23:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> [...]
> > I've filed an Enhancement Request at
> > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204
> > Feel free to add comments there.
> 
> Matthew Barnes has shown interest in implementing this but wants to get
> a sense of whether people are generally in favour or not. I'd like to
> ask you to take a look at the proposal at the above URL and either add
> comments on the BZ page itself or in this list thread. We'd be
> particularly interested in hearing any arguments as to why this would
> *not* be a good idea.

I would recommend consulting with a usability expert for this case. In
the recent past, we (me/sankar and some more people) noticed a HR hit
reply and assumed that the mail was being sent to the sender while the
ReplyTo field was munged to point to mailing list. And the confidential
mail (with some compensation info :D) was sent to everyone in the list.

So this is debatable, whether it was a mistake on the HR who was not
aware of the functioning of mailing lists or the munging of ReplyTo
header :) So we might need to keep in mind these kind of users as well..

Can reply be assumed that it can point to mailing-list or may be if the
software knows its a mailing-list, would it be better to say ReplyToList
instead of Reply ? In this case speaking about the tool-bar options, not
the short-cuts.

- Chenthill.
> 
> poc
> 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Can reply be assumed that it can point to mailing-list or may be if the
> software knows its a mailing-list, would it be better to say ReplyToList
> instead of Reply ? In this case speaking about the tool-bar options, not
> the short-cuts.
> 
Yes, can it not be implemented by changing the "Reply to All" toolbar
button to be "Reply to List" when there are List headers (including
changing the text and button itself?) - that way a "Reply" will still go
to the person as is expected within the UI, but there is a simple
obvious option to reply-to-list.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> 
> As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> contributors find the same thing.
> 
> An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> presumably the author's personal address.
> 
> This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
> don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
> a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
> case with these lists so nothing is lost.

That's just munging in a different place. As it is, I have the *choice*:

 - I can hit Ctrl-R to reply to you alone.
 - I can hit Ctrl-Shift-R to reply to you and the list.
 - I can hit Ctrl-L to reply to the list.

Just like the people who advocate using a Reply-To: header, you're
trying to take away my choices and make one or more of those keystrokes
actually do something _other_ than what I wanted.

> (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
> thread about munging, which that list does do.)
> 
> poc
> 
> PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you
> *really* want to say something to me personally :-)

If you reply to this, please make sure you don't drop me from Cc. I may
only look at the list sporadically (or indeed never; I may not even be
subscribed -- someone may have redirected your mail to me because they
knew I'd be interested). It'd be very rude not to Cc me in your reply.

That's why I almost never use the Ctrl-L option on mailing lists, unless
I notice that someone asked for it. In the general case, it's much
easier for someone to deal with having two copies, than it is for them
to deal with having *none*.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:01 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > Can reply be assumed that it can point to mailing-list or may be if the
> > software knows its a mailing-list, would it be better to say ReplyToList
> > instead of Reply ? In this case speaking about the tool-bar options, not
> > the short-cuts.
> > 
> Yes, can it not be implemented by changing the "Reply to All" toolbar
> button to be "Reply to List" when there are List headers (including
> changing the text and button itself?) - that way a "Reply" will still go
> to the person as is expected within the UI, but there is a simple
> obvious option to reply-to-list.

Matthew proposes to change the menu item to reflect that it's a Reply to
List. I agree that it makes sense that this also happen with the
toolbar.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:13 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> > 
> > As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> > deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> > address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> > Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> > Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> > contributors find the same thing.
> > 
> > An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> > being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> > as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> > case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> > presumably the author's personal address.
> > 
> > This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
> > don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
> > a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
> > case with these lists so nothing is lost.
> 
> That's just munging in a different place. As it is, I have the *choice*:
> 
>  - I can hit Ctrl-R to reply to you alone.
>  - I can hit Ctrl-Shift-R to reply to you and the list.
>  - I can hit Ctrl-L to reply to the list.
> 
> Just like the people who advocate using a Reply-To: header, you're
> trying to take away my choices and make one or more of those keystrokes
> actually do something _other_ than what I wanted.

Well, no. I'm advocating:

 - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
 - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
the current situation).
 - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply
To List.

> > (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
> > thread about munging, which that list does do.)
> > 
> > poc
> > 
> > PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you
> > *really* want to say something to me personally :-)
> 
> If you reply to this, please make sure you don't drop me from Cc. I may
> only look at the list sporadically (or indeed never; I may not even be
> subscribed -- someone may have redirected your mail to me because they
> knew I'd be interested). It'd be very rude not to Cc me in your reply.

Since you request it, that's what I did. Most people don't do that,
which is why I usually use Reply To List. Under my proposed scheme,
exactly the same would apply.

> That's why I almost never use the Ctrl-L option on mailing lists, unless
> I notice that someone asked for it. In the general case, it's much
> easier for someone to deal with having two copies, than it is for them
> to deal with having *none*.

That's more a comment on list netiquette than the mechanics of how the
MUA works. I can't recall anyone ever asking explicitly for Ctrl-L
(except in the course of discussions about how to reply to lists) but
perhaps your experience is different. In any case, you can continue to
use Shift-Ctrl-R with the effect you desire.

Note that what I'm proposing isn't original. Kmail already works this
way. In fact I got the idea when I read
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html 

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> Well, no. I'm advocating:
> 
>  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
>  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> the current situation).

Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?

But in that case...

>  - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's
> Reply To List. 

.. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > 
> > Well, no. I'm advocating:
> > 
> >  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> >  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> > the current situation).
> 
> Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
> and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
> addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?

Um, I mean like that message was when I _sent_ it, and the copy you
received directly. With you in Cc.

For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman
had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :)

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:51 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > 
> > > Well, no. I'm advocating:
> > > 
> > >  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> > >  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> > > the current situation).
> > 
> > Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
> > and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
> > addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?

I haven't so far received the message you're quoting, but yes, Reply To
All would still work as you expect.

> Um, I mean like that message was when I _sent_ it, and the copy you
> received directly. With you in Cc.

I didn't receive any such copy, see below.

> For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman
> had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :)

I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the
list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not
munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the
CC header, it just wasn't used).

Note that I'm sending this to you, CC the list (using Shift-Ctrl-R). How
are you receiving it?

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > 
> > Well, no. I'm advocating:
> > 
> >  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> >  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> > the current situation).
> 
> Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
> and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
> addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?
> 
> But in that case...
> 
> >  - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's
> > Reply To List. 
> 
> .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?

There is no "Reply To List Only". There's Reply To List, and that's what
they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a "Reply To List Only" be different?

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:31 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Note that I'm sending this to you, CC the list (using Shift-Ctrl-R). How
> are you receiving it?

One copy came straight to me, and landed in my inbox (intact).

Another copy came to me via the list, and because it arrived with
Return-Path:  was filed into the
lists/evo folder. It also seems to be intact -- To: me, Cc: list.

I think mailman's options for whether to drop duplicates and whether to
drop you from the headers are a per-recipient option. Which I will have
turned off. It may also be the case that mailman will strip list members
from the Cc: header but not from the To: header.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Well, no. I'm advocating:
> >  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> >  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> > the current situation).
> Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
> and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
> addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?
> But in that case...
> >  - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's
> > Reply To List. 
> .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?

Yes, at least me.

A reply to a list should go to the list, full stop, end of story; at
least IMO.  

If the poster says CC-me-I'm-not-on-the-list I say too-damn-bad
and very consciously ignore that request;  99.44% of the time that's
just someone wanting to get the benefits of the list without
participating.  Why should anyone bother to reply to someone who will
obviously and explicitly never reply to them?
-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  LPIC-1, Novell CLA

OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Adam Tauno Williams]

> > For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman
> > had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :)
> I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the
> list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not
> munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the
> CC header, it just wasn't used).

Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates.
If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be
discarded by Cyrus.


-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  LPIC-1, Novell CLA

OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:08 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > Reply To List. 
> > .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?
> 
> Yes, at least me.
> 
> A reply to a list should go to the list, full stop, end of story; at
> least IMO.  

Of course. That's exactly what I proposed. David seems to have
misunderstood something here.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > 
> > > Well, no. I'm advocating:
> > > 
> > >  - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> > >  - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
> > > the current situation).
> > 
> > Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To:
> > and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of
> > addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message?
> > 
> > But in that case...
> > 
> > >  - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's
> > > Reply To List. 
> > 
> > .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?
> 
> There is no "Reply To List Only". There's Reply To List, and that's what
> they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a "Reply To List Only" be different?

Um, sorry if I'm being dim... but "that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R"
seems different to what you said you were advocating, which was:

> - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of
>  the current situation).
> - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply
>  To List.

It seems to me that you're actually suggesting:
  - Reply to Author (i.e. Ctrl-R) to reply to the list, not be private.
  - Reply to All to do the same as now but with cosmetic differences.

If you really want to mollycoddle the idiots who can't manage to press
the right button, how about a pop-up which says:

 =

You are replying personally to the author of a message which
you received via a mailing list. Did you really mean to reply
privately, or did you mean use the "Reply to All" action?

   [x] Never ask me this stupid question again.

   [ Reply privately ] [ Reply to All ]

 =

We could also change the "Reply" button and menu item to say "Private
Reply" when it's a list message.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman
> > > had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :)
> > I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the
> > list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not
> > munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the
> > CC header, it just wasn't used).
> 
> Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates.
> If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be
> discarded by Cyrus.

Ah, thanks for that. IIRC that horrid behaviour can't be disabled
either, can it?

I was trying to remember a few days ago why I never even *considered*
using Cyrus; you've just reminded me :)

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:17 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > There is no "Reply To List Only". There's Reply To List, and that's
> what
> > they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a "Reply To List Only" be
> different?
> 
> Um, sorry if I'm being dim... but "that's what they'll get with
> Ctrl-R"
> seems different to what you said you were advocating, which was:
> 
> > - Reply To Author to reply to you alone.
> > - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse
> of
> >  the current situation).
> > - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's
> Reply
> >  To List.
> 
> It seems to me that you're actually suggesting:
>   - Reply to Author (i.e. Ctrl-R) to reply to the list, not be
> private.

No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the
message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still
get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in
the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear.

>   - Reply to All to do the same as now but with cosmetic differences.
> 
> If you really want to mollycoddle the idiots who can't manage to press
> the right button, how about a pop-up which says:
> 
>  =
> 
> You are replying personally to the author of a message which
> you received via a mailing list. Did you really mean to reply
> privately, or did you mean use the "Reply to All" action?

Or the Reply To List action.

>[x] Never ask me this stupid question again.
> 
>[ Reply privately ] [ Reply to All ]
> 
>  =

Maybe. I have no opinion on this.

> We could also change the "Reply" button and menu item to say "Private
> Reply" when it's a list message.

I guess. Doesn't do anything for those who use Ctrl-R of course.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the
> message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still
> get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in
> the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. 

So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the
> > message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still
> > get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in
> > the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. 
> 
> So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?

Message->Reply To Author

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:49 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the
> > > message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still
> > > get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in
> > > the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. 
> > 
> > So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?
> 
> Message->Reply To Author

That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should
give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies
is asking for trouble.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:24 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > > For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman
> > > > had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :)
> > > I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the
> > > list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not
> > > munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the
> > > CC header, it just wasn't used).
> > Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates.
> > If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be
> > discarded by Cyrus.
> Ah, thanks for that. IIRC that horrid behaviour can't be disabled
> either, can it?

Yes, it can if some crazy person wants multiple [utterly pointless]
copies of the same message.

/etc/imapd.conf:
duplicatesuppression: 0


If  enabled, lmtpd will suppress delivery of a message to a mailbox if a
message with the same message-id (or resent-message-id) is recorded as
having already been delivered to the mailbox.  Records the mailbox and
message-id/resent-message-id of all successful deliveries.

> I was trying to remember a few days ago why I never even *considered*
> using Cyrus; you've just reminded me :)

Can't imagine why not.


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:18 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:49 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > > No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the
> > > > message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still
> > > > get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in
> > > > the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. 
> > > 
> > > So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?
> > 
> > Message->Reply To Author
> 
> That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should
> give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies
> is asking for trouble.

That's the whole essence of the original proposal. Your comments on the
BZ page lead me to think that you had understood this since you made a
counterproposal, to wit:

> Currently, the 'reply to list' function does nothing if the list
> headers aren't detected.
> 
> Perhaps we could make it do the same as 'reply to all' in that case,
> and then the people who want this feature could just bind the 'reply
> to list' function to the Ctrl-Shift-R keystroke?

To which I replied:

> Making Reply To List turn into Reply To All when no list headers are present 
> is
> not a bad alternative. I don't see the need for changing the keystroke binding
> since Ctrl-L would Just Work.

poc


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Paul Smith]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:18 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?
> > 
> > Message->Reply To Author
> 
> That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should
> give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies
> is asking for trouble.

I'm afraid I agree with David (assuming I understand the proposal
correctly).  Having standard key sequences and buttons change meaning
based on whether the message being replied to is a list or not seems
like bad design to me.  I would definitely swear at such software daily.
Even moreso if, as David mentions, you change from a normally private
reply type to a public reply type.

I would be OK with having a separate button that was "reply to list"
that would be greyed out when the current message was not a list
message, or something.

I'm afraid I don't agree with the militant publicists here: there are
definitely not-rare times when I want to reply to a person privately,
even from a public mailing list.  I don't agree that just because a
correspondence starts publicly, it's required that all aspects of that
correspondence remain public at all times.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Brewster Gillett]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:06 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote:
> > How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if
> > it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted?  
> 
> It's tempting ... :-)
> 
> poc

bg:

Top-posting is how we can distinguish people who think from those
who only react :-)

Brewster
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***
Embrace a sharing community of sustainable justice low-carbon diversity
***
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***
Simply because you don't like to hear it, that doesn't make it untrue.
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:40 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:18 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message?
> > > 
> > > Message->Reply To Author
> > 
> > That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should
> > give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies
> > is asking for trouble.
> 
> I'm afraid I agree with David (assuming I understand the proposal
> correctly).  Having standard key sequences and buttons change meaning
> based on whether the message being replied to is a list or not seems
> like bad design to me.  I would definitely swear at such software daily.
> Even moreso if, as David mentions, you change from a normally private
> reply type to a public reply type.

I understand this point of view.

> I would be OK with having a separate button that was "reply to list"
> that would be greyed out when the current message was not a list
> message, or something.

I would prefer David's counter-proposal (see parallel thread or the BZ
page) in which Reply To List has the effect of Reply To All when list
headers are not detected (currently it does nothing so there's nothing
to lose). Of course this is still "Having standard key sequences and
buttons change meaning based on whether the message being replied to is
a list or not" but is perhaps less upsetting than the original idea.

> I'm afraid I don't agree with the militant publicists here: there are
> definitely not-rare times when I want to reply to a person privately,
> even from a public mailing list.  I don't agree that just because a
> correspondence starts publicly, it's required that all aspects of that
> correspondence remain public at all times.

I don't think anyone is proposing that. My original proposal includes a
Reply To Author option for these cases. In fact (this is not in the
original idea) Reply To Author might still be worthwhile for replying to
the real sender on munged lists, if that can be made to work reliably.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:44 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> I would prefer David's counter-proposal (see parallel thread or the BZ
> page) in which Reply To List has the effect of Reply To All when list
> headers are not detected (currently it does nothing so there's nothing
> to lose).

Actually, the action behind the scenes _does_ already fall back to
'Reply to All'. It's just that the Ctrl-L keystroke isn't _enabled_
unless it's a list message. We could "fix" that, or perhaps we could
just give you a hidden gconf option to make 'reply to all' actually
reply to the list where appropriate.

But that's a separate issue to your complaint that people reply
privately when they shouldn't.

Here's some code which will hopefully discourage that behaviour. Can
anyone tell me why the option in the composer prefs doesn't actually
work? It doesn't toggle the gconf key. But if I set it manually with
gconf-editor, it all works fine (and using the 'Don't ask me again'
checkbox also turns it off).

I'm unsure about changing the button text to 'Private Reply'. It's nice
and obvious... but it changes the size of the button.

diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 795dfcd..26048c5 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -31,6 +31,7 @@
 #include "e-util/e-binding.h"
 #include "e-util/e-charset.h"
 #include "e-util/e-util.h"
+#include "e-util/e-alert-dialog.h"
 #include "e-util/gconf-bridge.h"
 #include "shell/e-shell-utils.h"
 #include "widgets/misc/e-popup-action.h"
@@ -836,7 +837,41 @@ static void
 action_mail_reply_sender_cb (GtkAction *action,
  EMailReader *reader)
 {
-   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, REPLY_MODE_SENDER);
+   gint mode = REPLY_MODE_SENDER;
+   GConfClient *gconf;
+
+   gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+   if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply", NULL) &&
+   e_mail_reader_check_state(reader) & 
E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST) {
+   GtkDialog *dialog;
+   GtkWidget *content_area, *check;
+   gint response;
+
+   dialog = (GtkDialog*) e_alert_dialog_new_for_args 
(e_mail_reader_get_window (reader),
+  
"mail:ask-list-private-reply", NULL);
+
+   /*Check buttons*/
+   check = gtk_check_button_new_with_mnemonic (_("_Do not ask me 
again."));
+   gtk_container_set_border_width((GtkContainer *)check, 12);
+   content_area = gtk_dialog_get_content_area (dialog);
+   gtk_box_pack_start (GTK_BOX (content_area), check, TRUE, TRUE, 
0);
+   gtk_widget_show (check);
+
+   response = gtk_dialog_run ((GtkDialog *) dialog);
+
+   if (gtk_toggle_button_get_active(GTK_TOGGLE_BUTTON(check)))
+   gconf_client_set_bool(gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply", FALSE, NULL);
+
+   gtk_widget_destroy((GtkWidget *)dialog);
+
+   if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_YES)
+   mode = REPLY_MODE_ALL;
+   else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_OK)
+   mode = REPLY_MODE_LIST;
+   else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_CANCEL)
+   return;
+   }
+   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, mode);
 }
 
 static void
@@ -2411,6 +2446,13 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader)
sensitive = have_an_account && single_message_selected;
action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
+   if (selection_is_mailing_list) {
+   gtk_action_set_label(action, _("Private Reply"));
+   gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _("Private Reply"));
+   } else {
+   gtk_action_set_label(action, _("Reply"));
+   gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _("Reply"));
+   }
 
action_name = "mail-save-as";
sensitive = any_messages_selected;
diff --git a/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in b/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
index 5ab3e37..50a6917 100644
--- a/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
+++ b/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
@@ -1051,6 +1051,22 @@
   
 
 
+
+  /schemas/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply
+  /apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply
+  evolution-mail
+  bool
+  false
+  
+ Prompt when replying privately to list messages
+ 
+ It disables/enables the repeated prompts to warn that you are
+sending a private reply to a message which arrived via a
+mailing list.
+ 
+  
+
+

 
 
diff --git a/mail/mail-config.ui b/mail/mail-config.ui
index ce2a198..3817d06 100644
--- a/mail/mail-config.ui
+++ b/mail/mail-config.ui
@@ -4801,6 +4801,21 @@ For example: "Work" or "Personal"
 

Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list.
> 
> As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to
> deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list
> address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even
> Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just
> Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent
> contributors find the same thing.
> 
> An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message
> being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same
> as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare
> case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field,
> presumably the author's personal address.
> 
> This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and
> don't do "Reply-To munging". For those that do munge the Reply-To field,
> a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the
> case with these lists so nothing is lost.
> 
> (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long
> thread about munging, which that list does do.)

I've rethought this proposal in the light of comments by several people,
particularly David Woodhouse. This proposal supersedes the original and
seeks to minimize trauma and give some extra funcionality:

When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the
List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then
everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same
effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R).

When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e.
it replies to the List-Post address only.

In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now.

A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message
originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists
are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header
(note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they
don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To
and do the same as Ctrl-R.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 12:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the
> List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then
> everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same
> effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R).
> 
> When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e.
> it replies to the List-Post address only.

That can be rephrased as simply "enable the Reply-to-list option even
when not looking at a list message". Or, in 'diff -up' form:

 diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 795dfcd..1b6c518 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -2402,8 +2437,7 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader)
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
 
action_name = "mail-reply-list";
-   sensitive = have_an_account && single_message_selected &&
-   selection_is_mailing_list;
+   sensitive = have_an_account && single_message_selected;
action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
 

But if you want a key-combo which does this "reply to all or list"
thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch
in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that.

Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu
item is enabled even on non-list messages.

> In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now.
> 
> A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message
> originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists
> are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header
> (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they
> don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To
> and do the same as Ctrl-R.

That's a really good idea, and I'd probably make an option for the
"normal" reply to do that. After all, that's what the normal reply
option is *supposed* to do.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:48 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 12:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the
> > List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then
> > everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same
> > effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R).
> > 
> > When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e.
> > it replies to the List-Post address only.
> 
> That can be rephrased as simply "enable the Reply-to-list option even
> when not looking at a list message". Or, in 'diff -up' form:

Sure, I was trying to be very explicit.

[...]

> But if you want a key-combo which does this "reply to all or list"
> thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch
> in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that.

That's different. Consider a list message with a CC line. Reply To List
replies only to the list. Reply To All replies also to the CC
recipients. Both are valid options.

> Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu
> item is enabled even on non-list messages.

The text can change to Reply To All, keeping the shortcut. Sure, that
gives two shortcuts for the same action (Ctrl-L and Shift-Control-R) but
it wouldn't be the first time, e.g. in mail mode both Ctrl-N and
Shift-Control-M bring up the new message composer.

> > In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now.
> > 
> > A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message
> > originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists
> > are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header
> > (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they
> > don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To
> > and do the same as Ctrl-R.
> 
> That's a really good idea, and I'd probably make an option for the
> "normal" reply to do that. After all, that's what the normal reply
> option is *supposed* to do.

Hmm, a "de-munging" MUA. I'll reserve judgment on that one :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 13:03 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > But if you want a key-combo which does this "reply to all or list"
> > thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch
> > in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that.
> 
> That's different. Consider a list message with a CC line. Reply To List
> replies only to the list. Reply To All replies also to the CC
> recipients. Both are valid options.

Yes, that's true.

> > Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu
> > item is enabled even on non-list messages.
> 
> The text can change to Reply To All, keeping the shortcut. Sure, that
> gives two shortcuts for the same action (Ctrl-L and Shift-Control-R) but
> it wouldn't be the first time, e.g. in mail mode both Ctrl-N and
> Shift-Control-M bring up the new message composer.

OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not
really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All'
buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used.

You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making it
change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an existing
'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the Message
menu).

-- 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:06 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote:
> > How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if
> > it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted?  
> 
> It's tempting ... :-) 

(: ˙˙˙uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇxǝʇ ɹıǝɥʇ uɹnʇ ʇı ǝʞɐɯ ʇsnɾ plnoɔ noʎ ɹO

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Kåre Fiedler Christiansen]

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 20:35, David Woodhouse  wrote:



> OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not
> really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All'
> buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used.
>
> You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making it
> change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an existing
> 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the Message
> menu).

It seems to me that people are split in two camps:
 * Those who want full control over who to reply to when, and same
short-cuts always
 * Those who want Evolution to try to be intelligent about where to
reply to, by somehow magically detecting the "appropriate" way to
reply

Why not do both? Add a configuration option to "Use magic reply" (with
an appropriate help text to explain what it does) that replies to list
when list-headers are present, to reply-to address when that's
present, and to sender if neither are present.

An option to reply privately could then be added to the menu, to
override the magic behavior (that option could even be useful in
non-magic contexts when you want to ignore the reply-to header).

(I'm writing this from GMail, that has a lot poorer behavior for
replies than either the current Evolution behavior or any one
suggested in this thread...)

Best,
  Kåre
-- 
Kåre Fiedler Christiansen
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 20:48 +0200, Kåre Fiedler Christiansen wrote:
> It seems to me that people are split in two camps:
>  * Those who want full control over who to reply to when, and same
> short-cuts always
>  * Those who want Evolution to try to be intelligent about where to
> reply to, by somehow magically detecting the "appropriate" way to
> reply

I think it's best for Evolution always to do what you ask it.

But there are a lot of stupid people out there who ask it to do the
wrong thing, so I think the best option is to prompt them -- hence my
patch to say "are you sure you want to reply privately?" when replying
to a mailing list.

And this one to say "are you sure you want to reply to all?" when you
reply to a message with lots of recipients. Unless it's a mailing list
message.

I've resisted putting a precise figure on 'many' in the UI, although you
can see in the code below that it's currently set to 15. The problem is
that camel_message_info_cc() and camel_message_info_to() actually return
corrupted headers -- the quotes around display-names (which I so
carefully avoided counting within) have been removed. To work around
that bug, I'd have to actually fetch the message. Which I suppose we're
going to have to do anyway if we *do* reply, but it makes it a lot
messier.

diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 26048c5..1a5a42c 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -823,7 +823,41 @@ static void
 action_mail_reply_all_cb (GtkAction *action,
   EMailReader *reader)
 {
-   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, REPLY_MODE_ALL);
+   gint mode = REPLY_MODE_ALL;
+   guint32 state = e_mail_reader_check_state (reader);
+   GConfClient *gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+
+   if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/reply_many_recips", NULL) &&
+   (state & E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_MANY_RECIPIENTS) &&
+   !(state & E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST)) {
+   GtkDialog *dialog;
+   GtkWidget *content_area, *check;
+   gint response;
+
+   dialog = (GtkDialog*) e_alert_dialog_new_for_args 
(e_mail_reader_get_window (reader),
+  
"mail:ask-reply-many-recips", NULL);
+
+   /*Check buttons*/
+   check = gtk_check_button_new_with_mnemonic (_("_Do not ask me 
again."));
+   gtk_container_set_border_width((GtkContainer *)check, 12);
+   content_area = gtk_dialog_get_content_area (dialog);
+   gtk_box_pack_start (GTK_BOX (content_area), check, TRUE, TRUE, 
0);
+   gtk_widget_show (check);
+
+   response = gtk_dialog_run ((GtkDialog *) dialog);
+
+   if (gtk_toggle_button_get_active(GTK_TOGGLE_BUTTON(check)))
+   gconf_client_set_bool(gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/reply_many_recips", FALSE, NULL);
+
+   gtk_widget_destroy((GtkWidget *)dialog);
+
+   if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_NO)
+   mode = REPLY_MODE_SENDER;
+   else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_CANCEL)
+   return;
+   }
+
+   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, mode);
 }
 
 static void
@@ -2775,6 +2809,32 @@ e_mail_reader_changed (EMailReader *reader)
g_signal_emit (reader, signals[CHANGED], 0);
 }
 
+static gint count_header_recipients (const gchar *hdr)
+{
+   const gchar *p = hdr;
+   gint found = 1;
+
+   if (!p || !*p)
+   return 0;
+
+   while (*p) {
+   if (*p == '"') {
+   p = strchr(p + 1, '"');
+   if (!p)
+   return found;
+   } else if (*p == ',')
+   found++;
+   p++;
+   }
+   return found;
+}
+
+static gint count_message_recipients (CamelMessageInfo *info)
+{
+   return count_header_recipients (camel_message_info_to(info)) +
+   count_header_recipients (camel_message_info_cc(info);
+}
+
 guint32
 e_mail_reader_check_state (EMailReader *reader)
 {
@@ -2798,6 +2858,7 @@ e_mail_reader_check_state (EMailReader *reader)
gboolean store_supports_vjunk = FALSE;
gboolean is_mailing_list;
gboolean is_junk_folder = FALSE;
+   gboolean has_many_recipients = FALSE;
guint32 state = 0;
guint ii;
 
@@ -2893,6 +2954,9 @@ e_mail_reader_check_state (EMailReader *reader)
string = camel_message_info_mlist (info);
is_mailing_list &= (string != NULL && *string != '\0');
 
+   if (count_message_recipients (info) >= 10)
+   has_many_recipients = TRUE;
+
camel_folder_free_message_info (folder, info);
}
 
@@ -2930,6 +2994,8 @@ e_mail_reader_check_state (EMailReader *reader)
state |= E_MAIL_

Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 19:35 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> 
> OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not
> really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All'
> buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used.

I thought we were going the other way now, as you proposed I.e. turning
Reply To List into Reply To All when no list headers are detected.

> You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making
> it change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an
> existing 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the
> Message menu).

I almost never use the buttons so that's irrelevant to me.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 20:38 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> >  * Those who want Evolution to try to be intelligent about where to
> > reply to, by somehow magically detecting the "appropriate" way to
> > reply
> 
> I think it's best for Evolution always to do what you ask it.
> 
> But there are a lot of stupid people out there who ask it to do the
> wrong thing, so I think the best option is to prompt them -- hence my
> patch to say "are you sure you want to reply privately?" when replying
> to a mailing list.

The prompt is a possible win, but calling people stupid isn't going to
sell the idea. The fact is I wanted to improve the list handling because
people make mistakes, not because they don't understand what they're
doing. 

> And this one to say "are you sure you want to reply to all?" when you
> reply to a message with lots of recipients. Unless it's a mailing list
> message.

Definitely against this. There's no such thing as a "right number" of
recipients to trigger the query.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 19:35 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > 
> > OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not
> > really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All'
> > buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used.
> 
> I thought we were going the other way now, as you proposed I.e. turning
> Reply To List into Reply To All when no list headers are detected.

Remember, there are three different things which are affected...

1. For the *keystroke* (Ctrl-L): What's the point? If you mean
   Ctrl-Shift-R, why not just press that instead?

2. For the *menu item* in the Message menu, it'd just be confusing. At
   the moment there is already a 'Reply to All' menu item, and a 'Reply
   to List' item which may be greyed out. Turning the latter into a 
   duplicate 'Reply to All' menu item would be wrong.

3. For the *button* in the toolbar, there isn't currently one for
   'Reply to List' so we'd have to add one.

There's no *harm* in #1, but it's non-trivial to do that without also
doing at least part of #2 (enabling the Reply to List menu item when it
needn't be enabled). I suppose you could split them into separate
actions so that you can enable the keystroke separately from the menu
item.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Bart]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 20:38 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 20:48 +0200, Kåre Fiedler Christiansen wrote:
> > It seems to me that people are split in two camps:
> >  * Those who want full control over who to reply to when, and same
> > short-cuts always
> >  * Those who want Evolution to try to be intelligent about where to
> > reply to, by somehow magically detecting the "appropriate" way to
> > reply
> 
> I think it's best for Evolution always to do what you ask it.
> 
> But there are a lot of stupid people out there who ask it to do the
> wrong thing, so I think the best option is to prompt them -- hence my
> patch to say "are you sure you want to reply privately?" when replying
> to a mailing list.
> 
> And this one to say "are you sure you want to reply to all?" when you
> reply to a message with lots of recipients. Unless it's a mailing list
> message.
> 


I agree with the two types of users statement.  Truth is, I installed
Evo and just used it.  It was that easy.  I didn't read the manual,
didn't think I needed to.  I learned about CTRL-L from this list.

Guess I'm like the majority of Windows users, I read my mail in the
preview pane, using my mouse wheel, and when I need to reply, I want a
button to click on.

Therefore, I would like to see the keys choices stay the same as they
are (that would satisfy the geeks) and a button added that has "Reply To
List" that would be grayed out when the message is not from a list (that
would satisfy the idiots).  "Geeks" and "idiots" meant as labels only,
not insults.

I can't understand why, if replying to a list message, I would want to
send the same message to a person on that list.  I find it quite
annoying to get two messages because to reply, I have to pick out which
is which.  CTRL-L works only on the list message.

If you change CTRL-L to work like CTRL-R, I would be taking my messages
off list unknowingly, the subject would remain unchanged, so the filters
would place the replies into my list folder.

Bart

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Bart]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> I almost never use the buttons so that's irrelevant to me.
> 
> poc
> 
> ___
But I use then all the time!  

Also, additional pop ups are annnoying!  There are too many of then now.
I know, I can eliminate them, but I find them helpful at times.  They
are non-the-less annoying.

Bart

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:24 -0600, Bart wrote:
> Also, additional pop ups are annnoying!  There are too many of then
> now. I know, 

It's a trade-off. The annoyance that you feel when you *personally* see
that pop-up just once and click the "never bother me again" option,
versus the annoyance you feel repeatedly when some other muppet *should*
have seen that pop-up and been encouraged by it to do something
different.

> I can eliminate them, but I find them helpful at times.  They are
> non-the-less annoying. 

They're *supposed* to be annoying. :)

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > And this one to say "are you sure you want to reply to all?" when you
> > reply to a message with lots of recipients. Unless it's a mailing list
> > message.
> 
> Definitely against this. There's no such thing as a "right number" of
> recipients to trigger the query.

You're welcome to turn it off. I certainly would -- but I think it would
still be useful. It doesn't *matter* that there's no "right number",
because it's just a heuristic to make you think. We could also make the
number tunable (given that I've now made it actually count recipients
properly).

diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.c b/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.c
index a1e0ebb..35a6a5e 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.c
@@ -353,7 +353,7 @@ html_contains_nonwhitespace (const gchar *html,
 }
 
 void
-e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (EMailReader *reader,
+e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (EMailReader *reader, CamelMimeMessage *message,
 gint reply_mode)
 {
EMFormatHTML *formatter;
@@ -423,7 +428,7 @@ e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (EMailReader *reader,
 
 whole_message:
em_utils_reply_to_message (
-   folder, uid, NULL, reply_mode, EM_FORMAT (formatter));
+   folder, uid, message, reply_mode, EM_FORMAT (formatter));
 }
 
 void
diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.h b/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.h
index 72ad761..9f3a06b 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.h
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader-utils.h
@@ -48,6 +48,7 @@ guint e_mail_reader_open_selected (EMailReader 
*reader);
 void   e_mail_reader_print (EMailReader *reader,
 GtkPrintOperationAction 
action);
 void   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message  (EMailReader *reader,
+CamelMimeMessage *message,
 gint reply_mode);
 void   e_mail_reader_select_next_message
(EMailReader *reader,
diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 26048c5..e3ad1c8 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -820,17 +820,96 @@ action_mail_redirect_cb (GtkAction *action,
 }
 
 static void
+action_mail_reply_all_check(CamelFolder *folder, const gchar *uid, 
CamelMimeMessage *message, gpointer user_data)
+{
+   EMailReader *reader = user_data;
+   CamelInternetAddress *to, *cc;
+   gint recip_count = 0;
+   gint mode = REPLY_MODE_ALL;
+
+   if (!message)
+   return;
+
+   to = camel_mime_message_get_recipients (message, 
CAMEL_RECIPIENT_TYPE_TO);
+   cc = camel_mime_message_get_recipients (message, 
CAMEL_RECIPIENT_TYPE_CC);
+
+   recip_count = camel_address_length(CAMEL_ADDRESS(to));
+   recip_count += camel_address_length(CAMEL_ADDRESS(cc));
+
+   if (recip_count >= 15) {
+   GConfClient *gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+   GtkDialog *dialog;
+   GtkWidget *content_area, *check;
+   gint response;
+
+   dialog = (GtkDialog*) e_alert_dialog_new_for_args 
(e_mail_reader_get_window (reader),
+  
"mail:ask-reply-many-recips", NULL);
+
+   /*Check buttons*/
+   check = gtk_check_button_new_with_mnemonic (_("_Do not ask me 
again."));
+   gtk_container_set_border_width((GtkContainer *)check, 12);
+   content_area = gtk_dialog_get_content_area (dialog);
+   gtk_box_pack_start (GTK_BOX (content_area), check, TRUE, TRUE, 
0);
+   gtk_widget_show (check);
+
+   response = gtk_dialog_run ((GtkDialog *) dialog);
+
+   if (gtk_toggle_button_get_active(GTK_TOGGLE_BUTTON(check)))
+   gconf_client_set_bool(gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/reply_many_recips", FALSE, NULL);
+
+   gtk_widget_destroy((GtkWidget *)dialog);
+
+   if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_NO)
+   mode = REPLY_MODE_SENDER;
+   else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_CANCEL)
+   return;
+   }  
+
+   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, message, mode);
+}
+
+static void
 action_mail_reply_all_cb (GtkAction *action,
   EMailReader *reader)
 {
-   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, REPLY_MODE_ALL);
+   guint32 state = e_mail_reader_check_state (reader);
+   GConfClient *gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+
+   if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/reply_many_recips", NULL) &&
+   !(state & E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST)) {
+   CamelMimeMessage *message = NULL;
+#if 0 /* Not until bug 624285 is fixed */
+   EMFormatHTML *formatter;
+
+  

Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 23:10 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > I thought we were going the other way now, as you proposed I.e.
> turning
> > Reply To List into Reply To All when no list headers are detected.
> 
> Remember, there are three different things which are affected...
> 
> 1. For the *keystroke* (Ctrl-L): What's the point? If you mean
>Ctrl-Shift-R, why not just press that instead?

Because that's not what I mean. I mean Ctrl-L and Shift-Ctrl-R is a
fallback, not the other way round. Every time I've replied to one of
your messages in this thread I've automatically hit Ctrl-L and it hasn't
worked, so I've had to pause and hit Shift-Ctrl-R. That's because you
aren't using the List-* headers, which I find very annoying since it
does work most of the time on this list. If Ctrl-L just worked I
wouldn't bother about it much.

> 2. For the *menu item* in the Message menu, it'd just be confusing. At
>the moment there is already a 'Reply to All' menu item, and a
> 'Reply to List' item which may be greyed out. Turning the latter into
> a duplicate 'Reply to All' menu item would be wrong.

It wouldn't be a duplicate since it would have its own shortcut. In fact
it could even say Reply To List.

> 3. For the *button* in the toolbar, there isn't currently one for
>'Reply to List' so we'd have to add one.

Add a Reply To List button if you like. I really don't care and I'm not
asking for it.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:20 -0600, Bart wrote:
> I can't understand why, if replying to a list message, I would want to
> send the same message to a person on that list.  I find it quite
> annoying to get two messages because to reply, I have to pick out
> which is which.  CTRL-L works only on the list message.

I don't understand it either, but apparently it's something some people
want.

> If you change CTRL-L to work like CTRL-R, I would be taking my
> messages off list unknowingly, the subject would remain unchanged, so
> the filters would place the replies into my list folder.

No-one has proposed changing Ctrl-L to work like Ctrl-R. My original
proposal was the other way round. My revised proposal makes Ctrl-L work
like Shift-Ctrl-R when no list headers are present.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 18:31 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 23:10 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > I thought we were going the other way now, as you proposed I.e.
> > turning
> > > Reply To List into Reply To All when no list headers are detected.
> > 
> > Remember, there are three different things which are affected...
> > 
> > 1. For the *keystroke* (Ctrl-L): What's the point? If you mean
> >Ctrl-Shift-R, why not just press that instead?
> 
> Because that's not what I mean. I mean Ctrl-L and Shift-Ctrl-R is a
> fallback, not the other way round. Every time I've replied to one of
> your messages in this thread I've automatically hit Ctrl-L and it hasn't
> worked, so I've had to pause and hit Shift-Ctrl-R. That's because you
> aren't using the List-* headers, which I find very annoying since it
> does work most of the time on this list. If Ctrl-L just worked I
> wouldn't bother about it much.

I think that's perhaps because you're replying to the message you
receive directly, not the message you receive from the list? Obviously
the *direct* message doesn't have any List-* headers.

In my case, the direct copy of the message arrives (almost instantly) in
my inbox while the list copy arrives (some time later) in my list
folder. Ctrl-L would work on the latter, but obviously not on the
former.

> > 2. For the *menu item* in the Message menu, it'd just be confusing. At
> >the moment there is already a 'Reply to All' menu item, and a
> > 'Reply to List' item which may be greyed out. Turning the latter into
> > a duplicate 'Reply to All' menu item would be wrong.
> 
> It wouldn't be a duplicate since it would have its own shortcut.

There would be two items in the 'Message' menu which are both labelled
'Reply to All'. Yes, they'd have separate shortcuts. I'll skip the
philosophical discussion about whether they're duplicates of each
other :)

>  In fact it could even say Reply To List.

In that case, the one-line patch I posted earlier (to just always enable
the Reply-to-list option) would suffice, surely?

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Paul Smith]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making
> > it change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an
> > existing 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the
> > Message menu).
> 
> I almost never use the buttons so that's irrelevant to me.

Nevertheless any suggested change must also describe how the buttons
would work / change as a result as well.  Otherwise it's not complete.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm a bit lost.  It seems like it
shouldn't be too difficult to collect all the current relevant behavior
into one table and then produce a second table showing the suggested new
behavior.  If we kept that and continued to update it I think more
people would be able to follow the discussion and comment on it.

The table should include menu items, keybindings, and buttons assigned
to each action.  Plus popup dialog notations where relevant.

Useful?

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 00:10 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 18:31 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 23:10 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > I thought we were going the other way now, as you proposed I.e.
> > > turning
> > > > Reply To List into Reply To All when no list headers are detected.
> > > 
> > > Remember, there are three different things which are affected...
> > > 
> > > 1. For the *keystroke* (Ctrl-L): What's the point? If you mean
> > >Ctrl-Shift-R, why not just press that instead?
> > 
> > Because that's not what I mean. I mean Ctrl-L and Shift-Ctrl-R is a
> > fallback, not the other way round. Every time I've replied to one of
> > your messages in this thread I've automatically hit Ctrl-L and it hasn't
> > worked, so I've had to pause and hit Shift-Ctrl-R. That's because you
> > aren't using the List-* headers, which I find very annoying since it
> > does work most of the time on this list. If Ctrl-L just worked I
> > wouldn't bother about it much.
> 
> I think that's perhaps because you're replying to the message you
> receive directly, not the message you receive from the list? Obviously
> the *direct* message doesn't have any List-* headers.
> 
> In my case, the direct copy of the message arrives (almost instantly) in
> my inbox while the list copy arrives (some time later) in my list
> folder. Ctrl-L would work on the latter, but obviously not on the
> former.

I'm only receiving the direct copy and I'm not entirely sure why. Given
that the direct and list versions of the message are necessarily
different in their headers, I don't know if Mailman regards them as
duplicates or not.

IOW this exchange is actually a personal conversation which is being
copied to the list. If we were using Ctrl-L that would not be the case.

> > > 2. For the *menu item* in the Message menu, it'd just be confusing. At
> > >the moment there is already a 'Reply to All' menu item, and a
> > > 'Reply to List' item which may be greyed out. Turning the latter into
> > > a duplicate 'Reply to All' menu item would be wrong.
> > 
> > It wouldn't be a duplicate since it would have its own shortcut.
> 
> There would be two items in the 'Message' menu which are both labelled
> 'Reply to All'. Yes, they'd have separate shortcuts. I'll skip the
> philosophical discussion about whether they're duplicates of each
> other :)
> 
> >  In fact it could even say Reply To List.
> 
> In that case, the one-line patch I posted earlier (to just always enable
> the Reply-to-list option) would suffice, surely?

If it does what we've been saying then I guess so. I've not been reading
code or recompiling Evo to check. I guess it's up to Matthew if he wants
to accept the patch.

I'm still holding out for the Reply To Author action of course :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 19:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> If it does what we've been saying then I guess so. I've not been reading
> code or recompiling Evo to check. I guess it's up to Matthew if he wants
> to accept the patch.
> 
> I'm still holding out for the Reply To Author action of course :-)

I've actually got code which fetches the message for real in the reply
handler now (since we're going to want it anyway), so maybe...

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 18:58 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making
> > > it change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an
> > > existing 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the
> > > Message menu).
> > 
> > I almost never use the buttons so that's irrelevant to me.
> 
> Nevertheless any suggested change must also describe how the buttons
> would work / change as a result as well.  Otherwise it's not complete.

There currently is no Reply To List button. I'm not proposing to change
that. If someone does want such a button it's up to them to describe it.
Existing buttons which change are another matter of course.

> I don't know about anyone else but I'm a bit lost.  It seems like it
> shouldn't be too difficult to collect all the current relevant behavior
> into one table and then produce a second table showing the suggested new
> behavior.  If we kept that and continued to update it I think more
> people would be able to follow the discussion and comment on it.
> 
> The table should include menu items, keybindings, and buttons assigned
> to each action.  Plus popup dialog notations where relevant.

That sounds reasonable. I'll try and get round to it but it probably
won't be till tomorrow.

poc


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Nick Jenkins]

> I almost never use the buttons so that's irrelevant to me.

I quite like the toolbar buttons, and people who are newer to Evo will
probably use them more too. So maybe the toolbar buttons can be changed,
but only when there's the appropriate list headers? Example toolbar
buttons:

Normal email: [ Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ]  
A list email: [ Private Reply ] [ Reply to List ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ] 


I'd even be tempted to swap the order, for list emails, so that the most
common action is on the left, namely:
A list email: [ Reply to List ] [ Private Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ] 

(although I'm not sure about this)

I'd also be tempted to get rid of "Reply to All" for list emails, so as
to stop the toolbar width from expanding excessively, and since most
people CC'ed to a list email will also be subscribers to that email
list:
A list email: [ Reply to List ] [ Private Reply ] [ Forward ] 

So that'd leave toolbar buttons something like this:
Normal email: [ Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ]  
A list email: [ Reply to List ] [ Private Reply ] [ Forward ] 

Main criticisms of this that I can think of are:
* It changes the toolbar buttons based on message content, so potential
to confuse people (although I think making the buttons appropriate for
the message might outweigh this).
* The functions of the "reply to all" and "private reply" buttons are
almost the opposite of each other, but yet they occupy the exact same
toolbar position for the different message types. (So perhaps "Private
Reply" should be to the left of "Reply to List"?)
* There's no toolbar button for reply to the list and cc'ing everyone
that was cc'ed to the message that you received. (Is this something we
should care about, when this functionality is available through the
menu? Toolbars are just for the most common actions, not for every
possible action.)

> a button added that has "Reply To List" that would 
> be greyed out when the message is not from a list (that
> would satisfy the idiots).

I don't think a "Reply to List" toolbar button should be shown at all if
it's not relevant to the message. Different toolbar buttons, depending
on whether it's a list message or not, might possibly be better. Screen
space is valuable, as is the effort required to build a mental model of
what the toolbar buttons mean (which is IMHO why the "Cancel" toolbar
button should be removed, since it's scary looking, since it's unclear
what it's cancelling if you have multiple simultaneous operations
running, and since it often doesn't work anyway as there seem to be some
operations that cannot be cancelled).

> Remember, there are three different things which are affected...
> *keystroke* *menu item* *button*

... and I only rarely use keystroke or menu item, so no opinion on
those.

> I don't know about anyone else but I'm a bit lost.  It seems like 
> it shouldn't be too difficult to collect all the current relevant
> behaviour into one table and then produce a second table showing
> the suggested new behaviour.  If we kept that and continued to 
> update it I think more people would be able to follow the discussion
> and comment on it.

Yes, that would help. A table showing the current behaviour versus most
up-to-date suggested new behaviour would be much clearer.

-- All the best,
Nick.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Matthew Barnes]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 12:09 +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
> So that'd leave toolbar buttons something like this:
> Normal email: [ Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ]  
> A list email: [ Reply to List ] [ Private Reply ] [ Forward ] 
> 
> Main criticisms of this that I can think of are:
> * It changes the toolbar buttons based on message content, so potential
> to confuse people (although I think making the buttons appropriate for
> the message might outweigh this).

GNOME's HIG generally forbids changing menus and toolbars on the fly
like that, and I tend to agree.  But Thunderbird gets away with it by
moving those actions out of the main toolbar and into the preview pane,
so appropriate actions can be shown for that particular message.

Food for thought.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patryk Benderz]

Dnia 2010-07-12, pon o godzinie 18:06 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote:
> > How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if
> > it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted?  
> 
> It's tempting ... :-)
...and don't give users any way to disable this message :) This would
teach them a lesson :)
-- 
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patryk Benderz]

[cut]
> .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option?
Yes, that would be me for example. I do not see any point to send reply
to author of the message. The mailing list software should take care of
that.

-- 
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 22:36 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> GNOME's HIG generally forbids changing menus and toolbars on the fly
> like that, and I tend to agree.  

Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
anyway just because it changes the size of the button.

With the "are you sure you want to reply privately?" autonag, perhaps it
isn't really necessary anyway.

-- 
David WoodhouseOpen Source Technology Centre
david.woodho...@intel.com  Intel Corporation

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Matthew Barnes]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
> 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
> anyway just because it changes the size of the button.

I would say so.  Main window's toolbar should remain static.


Just to throw another idea out there...

Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
is determined by a user preference:

   [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply

I would probably reword the label, but same idea.  How does that sound?
I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and
menu changes to a minimum here.

So my proposal is:

  Reply(Ctrl+R)   : Replies to sender on private emails,
configurable for mailing list posts.

  Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or
maybe overrides Reply-To munging?

  Reply to List(Ctrl+L)   : No change.

  Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list
address in To:, sender in Cc:

Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
> dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
> but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
> is determined by a user preference:
> 
>[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> 
> I would probably reword the label, but same idea.  How does that sound?
> I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and
> menu changes to a minimum here.
> 
> So my proposal is:
> 
>   Reply(Ctrl+R)   : Replies to sender on private emails,
> configurable for mailing list posts.
> 
>   Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or
> maybe overrides Reply-To munging?
> 
>   Reply to List(Ctrl+L)   : No change.
> 
>   Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list
> address in To:, sender in Cc:
> 
> Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.

I like this version best - i.e. the default "unthinking" action is to do
the right thing, but gives the opportunity for people to customise it
with the minimum of fuss - could I ask that the default on a clean
install is for reply to be sent to the list, i.e. the option turned on.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
> > 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
> > anyway just because it changes the size of the button.
> 
> I would say so.  Main window's toolbar should remain static.

Ok, I'll drop that patch from my tree.

> Just to throw another idea out there...
> 
> Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
> dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
> but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
> is determined by a user preference:
> 
>[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The user can *already* express a
preference, by moving their hand an inch or two to the left or right and
hitting a different (key|menu item|button).

This strikes me being a "DWIM" feature so that the user only has to bash
their head on the keyboard to get what they want as long as they've
preconfigured it.

In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure anything
are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a context-dependent
action, for someone who knows what they're doing.

The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless users
who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes?

Which brings us to...

> Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.

If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action,
then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action
sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least
catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit
those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first
place, which makes it rather pointless.

If we're *not* exposing it in place of the existing Reply action, but
just as an extra option, then again I wonder what the point is -- if the
user has to *choose* to use it, then they can just choose the action
they actually want anyway. The naïve users aren't going to use it, which
again makes it pointless.

I think the best option is for Evolution to just provide the three
unambiguous reply/replyall/replylist options that it already provides,
and have nag popups for when the user is doing something "abnormal".

Since the nag popups are trivially disabled, we don't have to be too
precise about what "abnormal" is. My current implementation will warn
either if you reply privately to a list mail, or (by popular request) if
you reply to all to a non-list message with more than 15 recipients.

I have also implemented the option to ignore Reply-To: headers if they
match the List-Post: header.

 http://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git
  git://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git

-- 
David WoodhouseOpen Source Technology Centre
david.woodho...@intel.com  Intel Corporation

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Sylvia Sánchez]

El mié, 14-07-2010 a las 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes escribió:

> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
> > 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
> > anyway just because it changes the size of the button.
> 
> I would say so.  Main window's toolbar should remain static.
> 
> 
> Just to throw another idea out there...
> 
> Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
> dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
> but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
> is determined by a user preference:
> 
>[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> 
> I would probably reword the label, but same idea.  How does that sound?
> I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and
> menu changes to a minimum here.
> 
> So my proposal is:
> 
>   Reply(Ctrl+R)   : Replies to sender on private emails,
> configurable for mailing list posts.
> 
>   Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or
> maybe overrides Reply-To munging?
> 
>   Reply to List(Ctrl+L)   : No change.
> 
>   Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list
> address in To:, sender in Cc:
> 
> Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> 
> 
> ___



Matthew Barnes:  This is perfect!


Sylvia




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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Pete Biggs]

> > 
> >[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> 
> This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The user can *already* express a
> preference, by moving their hand an inch or two to the left or right and
> hitting a different (key|menu item|button).

But there isn't a "Reply to List" button - so instead of hitting the
reply button, you have to press ctrl-L or Message -> Reply to list.  And
no, I do not consider "Reply to All" to be suitable substitute for
"Reply to List".

> 
> This strikes me being a "DWIM" feature so that the user only has to bash
> their head on the keyboard to get what they want as long as they've
> preconfigured it.
> 
> In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure anything
> are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the first place.
> There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a context-dependent
> action, for someone who knows what they're doing.

I disagree. I have to consciously think "I'm dealing with a mailing list
post, so I don't want to click reply, I need to take my hand of the
mouse before I start typing the reply and then do Ctrl-L, then put my
hand back on the mouse to EDIT the message before starting to type."  If
I happen to be typing a quick reply to something on a list there is a
distinct (and high) possibility that I will automatically click Reply.

> 
> The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless users
> who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes?

Ah, OK. I must be a clueless user then...

> 
> Which brings us to...
> 
> > Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> 
> If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action,
> then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action
> sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least
> catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit
> those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first
> place, which makes it rather pointless.

Virtually all of the direct replies I get from posts on this list (and
others) are from novice users - they do not realise they sent it
directly to me, they thought they were sending to the list.  All of the
direct replies from experienced users are usually followed within a few
minutes by another email saying something like "Sorry, I replied
directly to you in my haste, that should have gone to the list".

Your experience may be different, but changing the default of Reply for
a list message to be Reply-to-list would catch both of those cases - I
see very little against it. Perhaps the nag box should be the opposite
way round. i.e. it gives a warning when you hit reply and Evo chooses to
use Reply-to-list instead - the nag box can be disabled and also give a
pointer on how to turn off the feature.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > >[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> > 
> > This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The user can *already* express a
> > preference, by moving their hand an inch or two to the left or right and
> > hitting a different (key|menu item|button).
> 
> But there isn't a "Reply to List" button - so instead of hitting the
> reply button, you have to press ctrl-L or Message -> Reply to list.  And
> no, I do not consider "Reply to All" to be suitable substitute for
> "Reply to List".

Providing a 'Reply to List' button so that you don't have to use the
keyboard is a perfectly sane feature request.

But I would consider it to be a separate request.

> > This strikes me being a "DWIM" feature so that the user only has to bash
> > their head on the keyboard to get what they want as long as they've
> > preconfigured it.
> > 
> > In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure anything
> > are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the first place.
> > There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a context-dependent
> > action, for someone who knows what they're doing.
> 
> I disagree. I have to consciously think "I'm dealing with a mailing list
> post, so I don't want to click reply, I need to take my hand of the
> mouse before I start typing the reply and then do Ctrl-L, then put my
> hand back on the mouse to EDIT the message before starting to type."  If
> I happen to be typing a quick reply to something on a list there is a
> distinct (and high) possibility that I will automatically click Reply.

You want a Reply to List button.

Alternatively, I already posted a patch which allows you to configure
the existing 'Reply to All' button so that where possible it acts as
'Reply to List' instead -- falling back to 'Reply to All'.

I'm still slightly dubious about that -- I think the actions should each
do what they say they'll do. But at least it's still a *public* action,
when you press the *public* reply button.

> > Which brings us to...
> > 
> > > Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> > 
> > If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action,
> > then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action
> > sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least
> > catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit
> > those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first
> > place, which makes it rather pointless.
> 
> Virtually all of the direct replies I get from posts on this list (and
> others) are from novice users - they do not realise they sent it
> directly to me, they thought they were sending to the list. 

And if I push the nag popup I've already implemented and tested in
git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git, those users will get a
pop-up warning saying "You are replying in private to a list which came
from a mailing list.". They'll have to *explicitly* choose "reply
privately" or "reply to all" to continue. 

>  All of the direct replies from experienced users are usually followed
> within a few minutes by another email saying something like "Sorry, I
> replied directly to you in my haste, that should have gone to the
> list".

Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag
pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better
failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should
have been public.

Users will *always* get things wrong; even experienced users. The
question is what failure mode do we want to encourage -- do we want to
err on the side of sending private information out to the mailing list,
which cannot be retracted and can lead to *very* bad things, or do we
want to err on the side of sending responses to too few people, which is
easily remedied?

I think that any "DWIM" option which automatically chooses between
*public* and *private* on behalf of the user is asking for trouble.

But it's perfectly reasonable for you to want a "Public DWIM" option,
which chooses only between reply-to-list and reply-to-all for you (and
means you don't have to use the keyboard for that). That's what I did in
http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=165799

-- 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Bart]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
> > 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
> > anyway just because it changes the size of the button.
> 
> I would say so.  Main window's toolbar should remain static.
> 
> 
> Just to throw another idea out there...
> 
> Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
> dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
> but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
> is determined by a user preference:
> 
>[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> 
> I would probably reword the label, but same idea.  How does that sound?
> I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and
> menu changes to a minimum here.
> 
> So my proposal is:
> 
>   Reply(Ctrl+R)   : Replies to sender on private emails,
> configurable for mailing list posts.
> 
>   Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or
> maybe overrides Reply-To munging?
> 
>   Reply to List(Ctrl+L)   : No change.
> 
>   Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list
> address in To:, sender in Cc:
> 
> Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> 
> 
This would work for me also..  One quick message to a user, one quick
change (if not the default) and it would work great!

Bart



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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Matthew Barnes]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> 
> If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action,
> then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action
> sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least
> catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit
> those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first
> place, which makes it rather pointless.

One way around this would be to have a third state for the preference
called "ask me", and make that the default.  So upon clicking Reply to a
mailing list post with the preference in the "ask me" state, you get
this prompt:



 Would you like to reply to the sender of the mailing list post

Matthew Barnes 

 or to the mailing list itself?

evolution-list@gnome.org


[x] Remember my choice for next time


[ Cancel ]  [ Reply to List ]  [ Reply to Sender ]

---

Checkmarking "remember my choice" would move the preference out of the
"ask me" state, unless of course you click Cancel.


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:02 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.
> > 
> > If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action,
> > then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action
> > sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least
> > catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit
> > those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first
> > place, which makes it rather pointless.
> 
> One way around this would be to have a third state for the preference
> called "ask me", and make that the default.  So upon clicking Reply to a
> mailing list post with the preference in the "ask me" state, you get
> this prompt:
> 
> 
> 
>  Would you like to reply to the sender of the mailing list post
> 
> Matthew Barnes 
> 
>  or to the mailing list itself?
> 
> evolution-list@gnome.org
> 
> 
> [x] Remember my choice for next time
> 
> 
> [ Cancel ]  [ Reply to List ]  [ Reply to Sender ]
> 
> ---
> 
> Checkmarking "remember my choice" would move the preference out of the
> "ask me" state, unless of course you click Cancel.

Hm, still plenty of scope for a user to think that means *only* for the
evolution list and say 'remember my choice', then to be surprised when
they accidentally reply in public to *another* list which they may not
even have realised was a list.

Compare your 'ask me' mode with what's already implemented in my tree,
though -- http://david.woodhou.se/reply-nag.png

Do we really need the 'Remember my choice for next time' mode when the
correct button is *RIGHT* *THERE* for the user to press if they wanted
it?

-- 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 19:04 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 18:58 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
[...]
> > I don't know about anyone else but I'm a bit lost.  It seems like it
> > shouldn't be too difficult to collect all the current relevant behavior
> > into one table and then produce a second table showing the suggested new
> > behavior.  If we kept that and continued to update it I think more
> > people would be able to follow the discussion and comment on it.
> > 
> > The table should include menu items, keybindings, and buttons assigned
> > to each action.  Plus popup dialog notations where relevant.
> 
> That sounds reasonable. I'll try and get round to it but it probably
> won't be till tomorrow.

On second thoughts, the number of ideas being generated make it unlikely
that I could keep this current, i.e. there are now multiple "suggested
new behaviors". I'm afraid you're going to have to read the thread (it's
not *that* hard :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Pete Biggs]

 GRRR - reply-to-list doesn't even work on the reply you sent because
you did a reply-to-all and I never got the list version of the message,
only the direct message. Hence the "Reply to all" is NO SUBSTITUTE for
"Reply to list".

This discussion is happening on the mailing list, please could you use
"Reply to list"

> 
> You want a Reply to List button.

Sure, but I thought there was reluctance to add more buttons to the
toolbar - I would be very happy with a "Reply to list" button, along
with a "Redirect" button. I would also like to get rid of some of the
useless buttons - like the Junk ones and the Prev/Next that I never use.
I used to hack on the XML files to implement them, but I got bored with
doing it everytime Evo got updated.  What we really need is an easy way
to modify the toolbar (and for it to be maintained across versions).

But that's a different (and long standing) request.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 12:09 +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
> I quite like the toolbar buttons, and people who are newer to Evo will
> probably use them more too. So maybe the toolbar buttons can be
> changed,
> but only when there's the appropriate list headers? Example toolbar
> buttons:
> 
> Normal email: [ Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ]  
> A list email: [ Private Reply ] [ Reply to List ] [ Reply to All ]
> [ Forward ] 

I'm quite reluctant to change toolbar layout depending on the message.
It will work for the inexpert user who consciously looks at the toolbar,
but for many people clicking on an icon is a reflex action and muscle
memory of where the icon is plays a large part.

Note that changing menu items or shortcuts is a different matter. I
think muscle memory plays a much less important role here, but I'm not
an HI specialist.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read
> > 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that
> > anyway just because it changes the size of the button.
> 
> I would say so.  Main window's toolbar should remain static.
> 
> 
> Just to throw another idea out there...
> 
> Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem.  They define
> dedicated "Reply to Sender" and "Reply to List" actions in their menus,
> but also a generic "Reply" action whose behavior for a mailing list post
> is determined by a user preference:
> 
>[ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply
> 
> I would probably reword the label, but same idea.  How does that sound?
> I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and
> menu changes to a minimum here.
> 
> So my proposal is:
> 
>   Reply(Ctrl+R)   : Replies to sender on private emails,
> configurable for mailing list posts.
> 
>   Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or
> maybe overrides Reply-To munging?
> 
>   Reply to List(Ctrl+L)   : No change.
> 
>   Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list
> address in To:, sender in Cc:
> 
> Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference.

I quite like this idea (especially the munging override), except that
I'd make Ctrl+L fall back to Shift+Ctrl+R when no List-Post header is
present.

Note: The munging override can't undo all possible munging, e.g. if the
munged Reply-To is different from the List-Post address, or if the
sender had his own Reply-To which is now lost. With those caveats, I
think it's a win.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure
> anything are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the
> first place. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a
> context-dependent action, for someone who knows what they're doing.
> 
> The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless
> users who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes?

No. You keep saying this is about getting "stupid" users to do the right
thing. That may be your view but it was never part of the justification
for my original proposal. I tend to give people who make the occasional
mistake the benefit of the doubt and not assume they are idiots unless
they persistently repeat the same mistakes. The point of the suggested
changes is to make it easier for *anyone* to do the right thing in the
most common case without having to think about it.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:18 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> GRRR - reply-to-list doesn't even work on the reply you sent because
> you did a reply-to-all and I never got the list version of the message,
> only the direct message. Hence the "Reply to all" is NO SUBSTITUTE for
> "Reply to list".
> 
> This discussion is happening on the mailing list, please could you use
> "Reply to list"

I'll try to remember. But please remember that like many people, I
consider it extremely rude when you reply to my messages and drop me
from Cc. So please *don't* use 'Reply to List' when replying to me.

> > You want a Reply to List button.
> 
> Sure, but I thought there was reluctance to add more buttons to the
> toolbar - I would be very happy with a "Reply to list" button, 

Yeah, adding more buttons is painful.

So what do you think of having the option to change the existing 
'Reply to All' button so that it does what 'Reply to List' does?

Would that be sufficient?

-- 
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:54 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> >  All of the direct replies from experienced users are usually
> followed
> > within a few minutes by another email saying something like "Sorry,
> I
> > replied directly to you in my haste, that should have gone to the
> > list".
> 
> Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag
> pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better
> failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should
> have been public.

[missing a "not" in there I think]

I thought we were past that. I've already accepted your suggestion that
Ctrl-R should not change behaviour, precisely for this reason. Let's not
keep beating a dead horse.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:18 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
>  GRRR - reply-to-list doesn't even work on the reply you sent because
> you did a reply-to-all and I never got the list version of the
> message,
> only the direct message. Hence the "Reply to all" is NO SUBSTITUTE for
> "Reply to list".
> 
> This discussion is happening on the mailing list, please could you use
> "Reply to list"

Agreed (in fact I already made the same point in an earlier reply to
David), however in cases where the list headers are not present, Reply
To All seems to be the only reasonable fallback. Currently it's a
*manual* fallback requiring user intervention. The proposal is to
automate it.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:05 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag
> > pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better
> > failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should
> > have been public.
> 
> [missing a "not" in there I think]
> 
> I thought we were past that.

So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the
existing private "Reply" button with a new "Reply" button that sometimes
replies to the list.

(At least, if that *wasn't* where the 'DWYTIM Reply' button was intended
to go, I don't see what the point is).

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure
> > anything are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the
> > first place. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a
> > context-dependent action, for someone who knows what they're doing.
> > 
> > The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless
> > users who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes?
> 
> No. You keep saying this is about getting "stupid" users to do the right
> thing. That may be your view but it was never part of the justification
> for my original proposal. 

I think you're having a Pavlovian politically-correct reaction to the
word 'clueless'. Whatever terminology you prefer to use, I'm talking
about this case:

"As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever
 having to deal with people replying to my personal address
 rather than the list address. Of course they should be using
 Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but
 occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has
 to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the
 same thing."

Yes, I find the same thing, and the word *I* use for these users
(including myself, on the occasions that I screw up) is "clueless".
Or "stupid".

I really do think we're talking about the same thing.

> I tend to give people who make the occasional mistake the benefit of
> the doubt and not assume they are idiots unless they persistently
> repeat the same mistakes.

That's nice. I'm sure you're a lovely person. I prefer not to worry
about whether my choice of words will make them cry or not, and see what
I can do to make the software easier for them to use correctly.

>  The point of the suggested changes is to make it easier for *anyone*
> to do the right thing in the most common case without having to think
> about it.

The problem is that you *cannot* get it right in all circumstances.

The best option is *not* to choose. Let the *user* tell Evolution what
to do, and don't give them nasty surprises. And, obviously, make it
*really* easy for them to tell Evolution what to do, and add the nag
pop-ups when it looks like they may have made the wrong choice.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:42 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> >  The point of the suggested changes is to make it easier for
> *anyone*
> > to do the right thing in the most common case without having to
> think
> > about it.
> 
> The problem is that you *cannot* get it right in all circumstances.

Of course not, but that's not what I said or think.

> The best option is *not* to choose. Let the *user* tell Evolution what
> to do, and don't give them nasty surprises. And, obviously, make it
> *really* easy for them to tell Evolution what to do, and add the nag
> pop-ups when it looks like they may have made the wrong choice.

Exactly. I don't think we disagree about any of that.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > I thought we were past that.
> 
> So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the
> existing private "Reply" button with a new "Reply" button that
> sometimes replies to the list.

IIRC Matthew had this as a user-configurable option. As long as the
default case is not to do it, it's OK by me.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Matthew Barnes]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:10 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> Hm, still plenty of scope for a user to think that means *only* for the
> evolution list and say 'remember my choice', then to be surprised when
> they accidentally reply in public to *another* list which they may not
> even have realised was a list.

True.  We can play with the wording a bit.

   [ ] Remember my choice for all mailing list replies

Also, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some users would prefer
being asked every time as a kind of safeguard, especially if they don't
post to mailing lists very often.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > I thought we were past that.
> > 
> > So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the
> > existing private "Reply" button with a new "Reply" button that
> > sometimes replies to the list.
> 
> IIRC Matthew had this as a user-configurable option. As long as the
> default case is not to do it, it's OK by me.

We seem to be agreed on most things; I'm glad.

What I have in my tree so far is hopefully just stuff we can all agree
on:

 1. Nag popup for "you are replying privately to a mailing list message"
 2. Nag popup for "you are replying to all, to many recipients"
 3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches
a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup).
 4. Fix two memory leaks.

http://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git
 git://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git

I think we can all agree on those, right? I'll probably turn *both* of
those nags off personally, but I'll still benefit from novice users
seeing them.

Going back to the "Reply" button stuff... I agree that the default case
needs to be *not* to do it (where 'it' means replying in public).

Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go
and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to
press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very
much for the *really* novice users?

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 15:30 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > I thought we were past that.
> > > 
> > > So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the
> > > existing private "Reply" button with a new "Reply" button that
> > > sometimes replies to the list.
> > 
> > IIRC Matthew had this as a user-configurable option. As long as the
> > default case is not to do it, it's OK by me.
> 
> We seem to be agreed on most things; I'm glad.
> 
> What I have in my tree so far is hopefully just stuff we can all agree
> on:
> 
>  1. Nag popup for "you are replying privately to a mailing list message"
>  2. Nag popup for "you are replying to all, to many recipients"

Both of these are OK, as long as the usual conditions apply, i.e. the
state is represented somewhere in the Preferences and can be reversed if
the user changes his mind.

>  3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches
> a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup).

There needs to be an explicit per-message Reply To Author (Reply To
Sender) because sometimes you want it and sometimes you don't. In fact I
think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists) you really do.

>  4. Fix two memory leaks.

If you say so.

> http://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git
>  git://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git
> 
> I think we can all agree on those, right? I'll probably turn *both* of
> those nags off personally, but I'll still benefit from novice users
> seeing them.
> 
> Going back to the "Reply" button stuff... I agree that the default case
> needs to be *not* to do it (where 'it' means replying in public).
> 
> Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go
> and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to
> press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very
> much for the *really* novice users?

Could be, but we're not just doing this for the novices. Experts also
make the occasional mistake.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 10:47 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >  1. Nag popup for "you are replying privately to a mailing list message"
> >  2. Nag popup for "you are replying to all, to many recipients"
> 
> Both of these are OK, as long as the usual conditions apply, i.e. the
> state is represented somewhere in the Preferences and can be reversed if
> the user changes his mind.

Yep. You get the 'Don't ask me again' in the pop-up itself, and you can
also go into the preferences to turn it on/off:

http://david.woodhou.se/reply-nag.png
http://david.woodhou.se/evo-composer-prefs.png

> >  3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches
> > a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup).
> 
> There needs to be an explicit per-message Reply To Author (Reply To
> Sender) because sometimes you want it and sometimes you don't.

It might *also* be nice to have a per-message 'Reply to From: address'
action, I agree.

I'm starting to wonder if we should just have a drop-down list for the
reply options, like we do for forwarding :)

But really, I don't think we want it to get that bad -- we don't want a
proliferation of different options.

>  In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists)
> you really do.

The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists.
Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address
matches the address in a List-Post: header.

> > Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go
> > and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to
> > press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very
> > much for the *really* novice users?
> 
> Could be, but we're not just doing this for the novices. Experts also
> make the occasional mistake.

Absolutely. I'm just trying to focus the discussion. If we agree that
it's not really for the novices, then we can concentrate on what the
more experienced users need...

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:32 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> >  In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists)
> > you really do.
> 
> The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists.
> Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address
> matches the address in a List-Post: header.

I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On munged
lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just hit
Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to the
sender I don't want to have to go change an option before trying to
reply. That's why I need Reply To Author.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 11:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:32 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > >  In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists)
> > > you really do.
> > 
> > The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists.
> > Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address
> > matches the address in a List-Post: header.
> 
> I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On munged
> lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just hit
> Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to the
> sender

I have exactly the same requirement, and consider it solved by the
'ignore reply-to on munged lists' option.

If you want to reply to the author, just press the normal Reply button
or Ctrl-R.

If you want to reply to the list, hit 'Reply to List' or Ctrl-L.

> I don't want to have to go change an option before trying to reply.

If it's turned on, you'd *certainly* never have to go and turn it off
before trying to reply. By definition, the result of turning it off then
using Ctrl-R is the *same* as just pressing Ctrl-L in the first place.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:04 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On
> munged
> > lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just
> hit
> > Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to
> the
> > sender
> 
> I have exactly the same requirement, and consider it solved by the
> 'ignore reply-to on munged lists' option.
> 
> If you want to reply to the author, just press the normal Reply button
> or Ctrl-R.
> 
> If you want to reply to the list, hit 'Reply to List' or Ctrl-L.

OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address,
SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses):

Personal Reply  Non-Munged List Munged List w/o 
Option  Munged List with Option
Ctrl-R  to RT   to RT   to RT   
to SA
Ctrl-L  to RT+CCto LP   to LP   
to LP
Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC
to LP+CC

Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens,
toolbar changes etc. for now.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 12:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address,
> SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses):
> 
> Personal Reply  Non-Munged List Munged List 
> w/o Option  Munged List with Option
> Ctrl-R  to RT   to RT   to RT 
>   to SA
> Ctrl-L  to RT+CCto LP   to LP 
>   to LP
> Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC  
>   to LP+CC
> 
> Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens,
> toolbar changes etc. for now. 

Where 'to RT' of course means 'to RT if it exists, else SA'.

And 'to LP' means 'to LP if it exists, else to RT+CC'.(which in turn
means 'SA+CC' if there are no LP or RT headers, of course)

All that is what I have implemented, *except* that there should be no
'LP+CC' in the Shift-Ctrl-R row. It's 'RT+CC' for the first three
columns, and 'SA+CC' in the fourth where it ignores the Reply-To:
header.

I had proposed that I give you an *option* to change the Ctrl-Shift-R
behaviour so that it precisely matches the Ctrl-L behaviour. But while
we're ignoring the toolbar for now, that proposal makes no sense :)

But really, I don't *want* to see a table like this. The behaviour
should be *consistent* across all the columns, or we're just making
things more confusing and making errors more *likely*. What we have
right now is:

 Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header.
 Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients.
 Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as Ctrl-Shift-R.

A List-Post: header is considered valid if it exists.

A Reply-To: header is considered valid if it exists, *unless* the
anti-munging option is set and there is a List-Post: header which
contains the same address.

If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the
toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you?

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address,
> SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses):
> 
>   Personal Reply  Non-Munged List Munged List w/o 
> Option  Munged List with Option
> Ctrl-Rto RT   to RT   to RT   
> to SA
> Ctrl-Lto RT+CCto LP   to LP   
> to LP
> Shift-Ctrl-R  to RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC
> to LP+CC
> 
> Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens,
> toolbar changes etc. for now.

This all far too complicated.  I thought the idea was to help people who
forget (and people who are unaware) - call them stupid or clueless if
you like - to reply to the list preferentially rather than to a personal
address.  The above options (if I understand them) do nothing to achieve
that - you *STILL* have to press ctrl-L to reply to the list.

I think this discussion is not going anywhere near achieving what I
thought the aim was.  

I vote that we forget about the whole thing and just put a Reply-to-list
button on the tool bar.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Paul Smith]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>  Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header.
>  Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients.
>  Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as Ctrl-Shift-R.

I feel like I'm trailing along behind everyone else, but:

When you say "Cc:" recipients, you also mean the "To:" values of course,
right?  It should be all the recipients in both the CC and TO lists,
except for the current user [*].

What I'd really like to see is a "reply publicly" operation, which is
the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and
the standard button), which by default "does the right thing" to create
a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and
interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc.  This "right
thing" would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on
List-Post headers).

I'm also happy if there are alternatives for specific situations.
Someone mentioned having a drop-down list off the reply to all button,
like we do for forward, and actually I think that might be a good
solution.  By default have the "reply publicly" button do the heuristic
"reply to everyone" (I guess this would be more-or-less equivalent to
the Ctrl-L operation above), then have some drop-down menu options for
alternatives.

A preference that lets you select your preferred default "reply
publicly" operation would be nice as well (I think we have something
like that for forward).  The values could be "Best effort" (default),
"All recipients", etc.


[*] I've filed a bugzilla a few months ago against a VERY annoying new
"feature" of Evo where extra entries on the "To" list get added to the
CC list on reply to all, rather than the distinction being preserved.  I
hate that!!

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 19:15 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address,
> > SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses):
> > 
> > Personal Reply  Non-Munged List Munged List w/o 
> > Option  Munged List with Option
> > Ctrl-R  to RT   to RT   to RT   
> > to SA
> > Ctrl-L  to RT+CCto LP   to LP   
> > to LP
> > Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto 
> > RT+CCto LP+CC
> > 
> > Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens,
> > toolbar changes etc. for now.
> 
> This all far too complicated.  I thought the idea was to help people who
> forget (and people who are unaware) - call them stupid or clueless if
> you like - to reply to the list preferentially rather than to a personal
> address.  The above options (if I understand them) do nothing to achieve
> that - you *STILL* have to press ctrl-L to reply to the list.

That depends on whether or not you set the option David suggests. My
original proposal of forcing Ctrl-R to go to the list seemed a good idea
at the time but I'm persuaded that a default that would make replies
unintentionally public is worse than the current situation of making
them unintentionally private.

> I think this discussion is not going anywhere near achieving what I
> thought the aim was.  

The aim has expanded a bit. We now consider doing something sensible
with Ctrl-L when there are no list headers, plus being able to send a
private reply even when the Reply-To field has been altered by
list-management software.

> I vote that we forget about the whole thing and just put a Reply-to-list
> button on the tool bar.

That's fine and should persuade more people to use Reply To List when
appropriate (I wouldn't like to see it come and go, but greyed out when
not applicable).

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Kåre Fiedler Christiansen]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:27 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:



> What I'd really like to see is a "reply publicly" operation, which is
> the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and
> the standard button), which by default "does the right thing" to create
> a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and
> interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc.  This "right
> thing" would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on
> List-Post headers).


I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion! It's basically the same I
had in mind when I suggested the "magic reply" option.

I have seen a lot of emphasis on the knowledgeable user who want power
to reply exactly the way they want - I can understand! But for the
majority, you just want to hit reply and have evolution do The Right
Thing[TM].

I consider myself quite able to understand the different ways of
replying to e-mail, and yet I find myself often having to manually edit
the headers of a half-composed email, or discarding it and starting
anew, because I forgot to reply the right way. And 99.999% of the time
the "right way" described above fits my needs perfectly and the
remaining .001% of the time I would be vary conscious of selecting the
right option to reply.

It's like my digital camera. I understand the need to be able to set the
right exposure, focus distance, etc., but most of the time I simply want
to set it to "Auto" and not bother with the details.

> I'm also happy if there are alternatives for specific situations.
> Someone mentioned having a drop-down list off the reply to all button,
> like we do for forward, and actually I think that might be a good
> solution.  By default have the "reply publicly" button do the heuristic
> "reply to everyone" (I guess this would be more-or-less equivalent to
> the Ctrl-L operation above), then have some drop-down menu options for
> alternatives.

Again, I agree. I don't want to take away the power to select exactly
how to reply in specific instances.

> A preference that lets you select your preferred default "reply
> publicly" operation would be nice as well (I think we have something
> like that for forward).  The values could be "Best effort" (default),
> "All recipients", etc.

That might actually be complicating things a bit too much, though. But
if it was implemented, it could be that one option was to make it reply
_privately_. (In that case it's name couldn't be "Reply Publicly",
though).

If done, the pop-up (mentioned before) when replying to a list, could in
fact be a pop-up asking you how you want to reply, and an option to set
that as the default way to reply.

Best,
  Kåre

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Personal Reply  Non-Munged List
> Munged List w/o Option  Munged List with Option
> > Ctrl-R  to RT   to RT   to
> RT   to SA
> > Ctrl-L  to RT+CCto LP   to
> LP   to LP
> > Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto
> RT+CCto LP+CC
> > 
> > Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens,
> > toolbar changes etc. for now. 
> 
> Where 'to RT' of course means 'to RT if it exists, else SA'.
> 
> And 'to LP' means 'to LP if it exists, else to RT+CC'.(which in turn
> means 'SA+CC' if there are no LP or RT headers, of course)

Naturally. I'm assuming "use the Reply-To header" has its usual meaning,
i.e. use it if it exists, otherwise use the From: address, and so on.

> All that is what I have implemented, *except* that there should be no
> 'LP+CC' in the Shift-Ctrl-R row. It's 'RT+CC' for the first three
> columns, and 'SA+CC' in the fourth where it ignores the Reply-To:
> header.

Makes sense. My head started to spin a little when creating the
table :-)

> But really, I don't *want* to see a table like this. The behaviour
> should be *consistent* across all the columns, or we're just making
> things more confusing and making errors more *likely*.

The table is just between ourselves so we know we're on the same page.
If by consistent you mean identical, I don't see how that's possible.
The meaning of the various commands necessarily changes according to
context. I agree this should be minimized, but I doubt it can be
eliminated.

> What we have
> right now is:
> 
>  Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header.
>  Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients.
>  Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as
> Ctrl-Shift-R.
> 
> A List-Post: header is considered valid if it exists.
> 
> A Reply-To: header is considered valid if it exists, *unless* the
> anti-munging option is set and there is a List-Post: header which
> contains the same address.

How is that different from the table (with your amendments)?

> If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the
> toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you?

In addition to rather than instead of, to avoid mutable toolbars, but
that's more a matter of personal taste.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:27 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> What I'd really like to see is a "reply publicly" operation, which is
> the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and
> the standard button), which by default "does the right thing" to
> create a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and
> interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc.  This "right
> thing" would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on
> List-Post headers).

Sure. It's really a matter of presentation rather than basic
functionality, but if it makes it easier to use I'm all for it. I don't
think this contradicts anything we've said up to now. Correct me if I'm
wrong.

[...]

> A preference that lets you select your preferred default "reply
> publicly" operation would be nice as well (I think we have something
> like that for forward).  The values could be "Best effort" (default),
> "All recipients", etc.

+1

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[George Reeke]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 15:21 -0400, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > Personal Reply  Non-Munged List
> > Munged List w/o Option  Munged List with Option
> > > Ctrl-R  to RT   to RT   to
> > RT   to SA
> > > Ctrl-L  to RT+CCto LP   to
> > LP   to LP
> > > Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto
> > RT+CCto LP+CC

Rest snipped.

I've been trying to follow all this but am missing a key concept--
could someone just tell me and anybody else who doesn't already know:
what is a "munged list"?  And there seems to be mention of multiple
kinds of munged lists, which is even more confusing.

Thanks,
G.Reeke


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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Paul Smith]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:20 -0400, George Reeke wrote:
> I've been trying to follow all this but am missing a key concept--
> could someone just tell me and anybody else who doesn't already know:
> what is a "munged list"?

A "munged list" is one where the mailing list software resets the
Reply-To: header on all email coming from the list to contain the
mailing list address, overwriting whatever Reply-To: value might have
been provided with the message originally (and forcing replies, even
using the simple "reply to sender" button, to go to the entire list).

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html


There may be other types of munging people are talking about but the
above is the main one.

Cheers!

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Paul Smith]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 20:47 +0200, Kåre Fiedler Christiansen wrote:
> > A preference that lets you select your preferred default "reply
> > publicly" operation would be nice as well (I think we have something
> > like that for forward).  The values could be "Best effort" (default),
> > "All recipients", etc.
> 
> That might actually be complicating things a bit too much, though. But
> if it was implemented, it could be that one option was to make it reply
> _privately_. (In that case it's name couldn't be "Reply Publicly",
> though).

No, I don't agree with this.

Today we have two buttons and two _main_ shortcuts: the buttons are
"reply", which results in "Reply to Sender" (Ctrl-R) in the menu, and
"Reply to All" button and menu item (Shift-Ctrl-R).

I'm not talking, myself, about any change to the "reply to
sender"/Ctrl-R capability.  Others have discussed trying to make it
smarter in the face of reply-to munging by mailing lists; that would be
nice but I'll leave that to others (I guess I just don't subscribe to
any lists that do this so it doesn't bother me :-)).

What I'm suggesting is that we retarget "Reply to All" (Shift-Ctrl-R)
and the button to be, instead "Reply Publicly" (or you can keep it named
"Reply to All" for all I care).  This button would DTRT based on the
message, to send a public reply.  So, in this mode replies to mailing
lists with List-Post headers would go there only.  Otherwise it behaves
as today.

There are other ways that "reply publicly" might be implemented, just
like there are multiple ways "forward message" might be implemented, and
I suggested that we can have a drop-down list next to the "reply
publicly" button allowing, on a per-instance basis, a different choice,
similar to the one we have today for "forward message".

I further suggested that we might allow the user to choose a preferred
way to "reply publicly", similar to how we allow them to choose a
preferred method for forwarding.  If changed, this would be the way the
button (and Ctrl-R) would behave, but the drop-down list would still be
there.


> Sure. It's really a matter of presentation rather than basic
> functionality, but if it makes it easier to use I'm all for it. I don't
> think this contradicts anything we've said up to now. Correct me if I'm
> wrong.

Well, this whole thing is mostly a matter of presentation :-).  Anyway,
as above there is one difference; I'm suggesting that the default key
sequence (Shift-Ctrl-R) (and button, for those that care) for "reply to
all" be made to run the user's preferred "reply publicly" method, which
would default to "smart reply" (which is basically what in Dave's
suggestion was going to bind to Ctrl-L).

Basically I want the simple, straightforward, uncustomized operations
that everyone uses to do the smart thing, where that is not egregiously
bad (like potentially sending private replies to public lists).  That
means the standard keybindings, standard buttons, standard menu items.

Then we can add customizations etc. for those who know better or have
more advanced needs.

What happens to other keybindings like Ctrl-L, I'm not sure.


Anyway, that's my $0.02.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:51 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> How is that different from the table (with your amendments)?

It's not. It's just a simpler way of saying it. An even simpler way is:

- Ctrl-R replies privately to the sender, using their Reply-To: or From:

- Ctrl-Shift-R replies to all recipients (and the sender).

- Ctrl-L replies to the one mailing list from which *you* happened to
 receive *this* copy of the message, if it can work that out.
 Otherwise it acts like Ctrl-Shift-R does.

- Oh, but beware that there are some mailing lists with a dirty hack
  which tries to trick your mailer into replying publicly to the list,
  when you asked for a private reply. There's an option to ignore the
  evil Reply-To: header in that case, and pretend it doesn't exist.

> > If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the
> > toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you?
> 
> In addition to rather than instead of, to avoid mutable toolbars, but
> that's more a matter of personal taste. 

I concede to not really caring. I get the impression that there is
resistance to the idea of adding more stuff to the toolbars, so we're
more likely to get away with *changing* the 'Reply to All' button to act
as 'Reply to List', based on a user configuration choice.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[Bart]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:52 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> I'm quite reluctant to change toolbar layout depending on the message.
> It will work for the inexpert user who consciously looks at the toolbar,
> but for many people clicking on an icon is a reflex action and muscle
> memory of where the icon is plays a large part.
> 
> Note that changing menu items or shortcuts is a different matter. I
> think muscle memory plays a much less important role here, but I'm not
> an HI specialist.
> 
> poc
> 

I agree with your first statement.  And, menu items are changable
without too much grief, but not shortcuts.  The ones I bother to learn,
I want to stay the way they are!  If I press CTRL-Whatever, and
"something" happens, it'll throw off my entire thought process if that
"something" doesn't happen.

Now, I have no experience with munged lists, so I can't make any
intelligent input about them.  And, I guess the statement made that
simply adding a Reply To List button on the tool bar should be a
separate request is valid.  BUT, If it were included with the proposal
you're making, it would most likely get done a whole lot quicker.  This
thread seems to have the "movers and shakers" contributing so I think
this is the best chance I have.

I am, and have been for years, a member of non-computer related lists.
The people on these lists are simply not interested enough to learn
CTRL-Anything.  Call them what you will, they are simply not interested
in computers, only using them with the least possible mental effort that
will get most of what they want done.  They look at the buttons and
press their best guess.  Reply doesn't go to the list, but reply to all
will.  They consider it better that the recipient delete the extra
message than them go through all the extra effort of changing the header
info.  A Reply to List button would put Evolution way ahead of most
Windows solutions, make it much easier for this type of user, and much
easier for members of lists such as these.

Therefore, I vote for including this button, and do what you will with
the key shortcuts.  Like a Windows user, I'll use the button if/when it
becomes available and won't have the shock of CTRL-L being changed.

Bart




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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:15 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> What I'm suggesting is that we retarget "Reply to All" (Shift-Ctrl-R)
> and the button to be, instead "Reply Publicly" (or you can keep it named
> "Reply to All" for all I care). 

OK, I can agree with that.

>  This button would DTRT based on the message, to send a public reply.
> So, in this mode replies to mailing lists with List-Post headers would
> go there only.  Otherwise it behaves as today.

The problem with that suggestion is that there are people (including
myself) who firmly believe that the "right" thing to do with a list
message is to *include* the original sender when replying, unless you're
sure they don't want you to.

There are plenty of reasons for this

The sender may not be subscribed to the list, and even if they are
subscribed they may not be looking in that folder very often, if ever.
It would be *extremely* rude to drop them from Cc when you're replying
to them.

Even if they are subscribed (and looking in that folder) there may also
be a substantial delay to receiving mails through the mailing list,
which will introduce significantly more latency than if the active
participants are directly in Cc, and detract from the conversation.

Let's not argue about that too much -- we won't make any progress. Let's
just recognise that this 'DTRT' thing that you suggest is hard when we
can't agree on what TRT is.

But I have already¹ posted a patch which *optionally* makes the existing
'Reply to All' button do what you propose, so you can set that option if
you want. And yes, I also say that you can keep it named "Reply to All"
for all I care, so that's what I did.
-- 
dwmw2

¹ I think I did, at least. If not it'll only take five minutes.

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 23:31 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> Even if they are subscribed (and looking in that folder) there may also
> be a substantial delay to receiving mails through the mailing list,
> which will introduce significantly more latency than if the active
> participants are directly in Cc, and detract from the conversation.

For example, it took 22 minutes for this message to come back via the
list -- this isn't just a hypothetical issue:

Received: from bombadil.infradead.org
 ([2001:4830:2446:ff00:214:51ff:fe65:c65c]) by twosheds.infradead.org with
 esmtps (Exim 4.72 #1 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1OZApN-0003N9-MR; Wed, 14 Jul 
 2010 22:53:22 +
Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([209.132.180.169]) by
 bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72 #1 (Red Hat Linux)) id
 1OZApK-0005nv-Bt for dw...@infradead.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:53:20 +
Received: from menubar.gnome.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by
 menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F41B7506B0; Wed, 14 Jul 2010
 22:53:12 + (UTC)
Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost
 (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id
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 + (UTC)
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 by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.72 #1 (Red Hat Linux)) id
 1OZAUR-0008Bu-IP; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:31:43 +

For some conversations (and at some times of day) a half-hour delay in
receiving a message doesn't matter as much -- but in many cases it
*does* matter, and the conversation can have moved on a *lot* in that
time. Dropping a participant from Cc is *bad*.

If they *have* the message, they always have the option of deleting or
ignoring it. If they *don't* have the message, they're screwed.

-- 
dwmw2

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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:15 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> What I'm suggesting is that we retarget "Reply to All" (Shift-Ctrl-R)
> and the button to be, instead "Reply Publicly" (or you can keep it named
> "Reply to All" for all I care).  This button would DTRT based on the
> message, to send a public reply.  So, in this mode replies to mailing
> lists with List-Post headers would go there only.  Otherwise it behaves
> as today.

I don't think there's any particular need to retarget Ctrl-Shift-R. If
you're using the keyboard, you already have Ctrl-L (although see below).

Likewise, there's no point in changing the menu items -- you have
Reply / Reply to All / Reply to List there too, and can just use the one
you want.

The request that really seems justified is the one for the *toolbar*. So
here's a patch which gives you the option to change the 'Reply to All'
button into a 'Reply in Public' button.

I haven't exposed the option in the UI; you can set it in gconf
manually. Hopefully that way it isn't considered to be violating the HIG
by changing the toolbar at runtime.

There was a request to have a keystroke that's enabled at all times (not
just for list messages) and which has the same 'reply to list or all'
behaviour. I don't see how to do that easily, so I haven't done it. Just
reassigning the Ctrl-L keystroke to the 'reply in public' GtkAction when
that gconf option is enabled would mean that the accelerator disappears
from the 'Reply to List' item in the menu. Someone who cares more for
this "reply-to-list" nonsense might spend more time trying to work it
out... :)

diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 74f0e7c..880d582 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -913,6 +913,21 @@ action_mail_reply_all_cb (GtkAction *action,
 }
 
 static void
+action_mail_reply_public_cb (GtkAction *action,
+EMailReader *reader)
+{
+   GConfClient *gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+   gboolean reply_public = gconf_client_get_bool (gconf,
+   
"/apps/evolution/mail/composer/reply_public", NULL);
+   guint32 state = e_mail_reader_check_state (reader);
+
+   if (reply_public && (state & E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST))
+   e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, NULL, REPLY_MODE_LIST);
+   else
+   action_mail_reply_all_cb(action, reader);
+}
+
+static void
 action_mail_reply_list_cb (GtkAction *action,
EMailReader *reader)
 {
@@ -1537,6 +1552,7 @@ static GtkActionEntry mail_reader_entries[] = {
  N_("Redirect (bounce) the selected message to someone"),
  G_CALLBACK (action_mail_redirect_cb) },
 
+   /* For the menu item and key shortcut */
{ "mail-reply-all",
  "mail-reply-all",
  N_("Reply to _All"),
@@ -1544,6 +1560,14 @@ static GtkActionEntry mail_reader_entries[] = {
  N_("Compose a reply to all the recipients of the selected message"),
  G_CALLBACK (action_mail_reply_all_cb) },
 
+   /* For the toolbar item (which can become 'Reply in Public') */
+   { "mail-reply-public",
+ "mail-reply-all",
+ N_("Reply to _All"),
+ NULL,
+ N_("Compose a reply to all the recipients of the selected message"),
+ G_CALLBACK (action_mail_reply_public_cb) },
+
{ "mail-reply-list",
  NULL,
  N_("Reply to _List"),
@@ -2236,6 +2260,7 @@ static void
 mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader,
 guint32 state)
 {
+   GConfClient *gconf;
EShell *shell;
EShellBackend *shell_backend;
EShellSettings *shell_settings;
@@ -2520,6 +2545,24 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader,
action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
 
+   action_name = "mail-reply-public";
+   sensitive = have_enabled_account && single_message_selected;
+   action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
+   gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
+
+   gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+   if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf, 
"/apps/evolution/mail/composer/reply_public", NULL)) {
+   g_object_set (action, "tooltip", 
+ _("Compose a public reply to the message"),
+ NULL);
+   gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _("Reply in _Public"));
+   } else {
+   g_object_set (action, "tooltip", 
+ _("Compose a reply to all the recipients of the 
selected message"),
+ NULL);
+   gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _("Reply to _All"));
+   }
+
action_name = "mail-reply-list";
sensitive = have_enabled_account && single_message_selected &&
selection_is_mailing_list;
@@ -2781,6 +2824,10