Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On 6/16/2014 12:54 AM, G.W. Haywood wrote: Because the automated systems are bad at it? No. I have to recover 5 or 6 messages every day from my spam trap. For some reason a lot of sci-fi author's mailing list messages land in there. Don't blame the automated system because you don't know how to configure it. I find your evaluation of my skills -- lacking. And you've gone from "the automated system" to "the automated system with manually added white listing rules" which in my opinion is a big difference. For your information, I use the ACM email redirector with its own spam filtering, which has rather limited configuration abilities. So, for example, I can't add a rule to whitelist messages that were sent to a particular list address or a rule to whitelist messages with a mailing list header. It can't even automatically whitelist addresses that I send to, because outgoing mail doesn't go through that server. Your assumptions are invalid and insulting. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
Hi there, On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Zan Lynx wrote: On 06/13/2014 01:10 PM, G.W. Haywood wrote: On Fri, 13 Jun 2014, Pete Biggs wrote: The issue is that when you reject mail at smtp time you are explicitly relying on the accuracy of an automated system to determine what is, or is not, junk. ... Why is this an issue? Because the automated systems are bad at it? No. I have to recover 5 or 6 messages every day from my spam trap. For some reason a lot of sci-fi author's mailing list messages land in there. Don't blame the automated system because you don't know how to configure it. -- 73, Ged. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On 06/13/2014 01:10 PM, G.W. Haywood wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 2014, Pete Biggs wrote: > >> The issue is that when you reject mail at smtp time you are >> explicitly relying on the accuracy of an automated system to >> determine what is, or is not, junk. ... > > Why is this an issue? Because the automated systems are bad at it? I have to recover 5 or 6 messages every day from my spam trap. For some reason a lot of sci-fi author's mailing list messages land in there. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
Hi there, On Fri, 13 Jun 2014, Pete Biggs wrote: The issue is that when you reject mail at smtp time you are explicitly relying on the accuracy of an automated system to determine what is, or is not, junk. ... Why is this an issue? -- 73, Ged. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 22:15 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 09:47 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > > I'm pleased to have a couple of replies to my posting, but still no > > answers to the question: how to recognize junk on the existence of a > > particular header without concern for its content. > > Define a filter (On Specific Header) with the action Set Status to Junk. This appears to work; incoming messages are recognized correctly. Oddly similar searches on mail already in Inbox don't work. Quoting from my earlier postings: > ... when I try to select messages from Inbox which > have a header line starting "X-YahooFilteredBulk:" by clicking > Search->Advanced Search->Add Condition > to get a choice box in which I enter: > Specific Header : X-YahooFilteredBulk : Exists : > nothing is selected, despite the fact that many such messages are in Inbox Alternately (editing the above for a new test) > ... when I try to select messages from Inbox which > have a header line starting "X-YahooFilteredBulk:" by clicking > Search->Advanced Search->Add Condition > to get a choice box in which I enter: > Specific Header : X-YahooFilteredBulk : does not contain : xx > all messages are selected. Thanks - jon ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 19:44 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > Sure, running your own mail server gives you the ability to implement > all manner of heuristics and grey listing and scoring so you can get > close to the nirvana of a 100% spam classification - but you will never > get 100% and, more importantly, not everyone has the skill set or the > resources or the desire to become their own mail admin. > > Clearer? +1. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 09:47 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > I'm pleased to have a couple of replies to my posting, but still no > answers to the question: how to recognize junk on the existence of a > particular header without concern for its content. Define a filter (On Specific Header) with the action Set Status to Junk. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 19:21 +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: > Hi there, > > On Thu, 12 Jun 2014, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 16:04 +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: > >> The right place is the mail server, which should recognize that > >> the mail is junk AND REJECT IT. ... > > > > This is far too simplistic. Not all mail identified as spam is in fact > > spam, and only the final recipient can make the call. There is no one > > canonically right answer for every situation, so there is a place for > > client-side spam filtering in many use cases. > > Please pay attention. > > I didn't say that the final recipient shouldn't make the call, I said > that he should make the call before the mail is accepted by his mail > server, so that the spammer doesn't get another $currency_unit for > sending his spam. This necessarily means that no mail client sees the > spam, which in turn means that Evolution is not the place to do this. > > Clearer? > I'm perfectly sure that poc knew exactly what you were saying, no matter how condescendingly you put it. The issue is that when you reject mail at smtp time you are explicitly relying on the accuracy of an automated system to determine what is, or is not, junk. Unless, of course, you sit and watch the SMTP traffic for all the mail you receive and press a button to accept or reject it. Sure, running your own mail server gives you the ability to implement all manner of heuristics and grey listing and scoring so you can get close to the nirvana of a 100% spam classification - but you will never get 100% and, more importantly, not everyone has the skill set or the resources or the desire to become their own mail admin. Clearer? P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
Hello again, On Thu, 12 Jun 2014, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Not only that, Yahoo manages the server operated by my ISP, which is ATT, so I am stuck with them. No, you aren't stuck with them. AFAICT our ISP (BT, formerly British Telecom, at the moment) also uses Yahoo servers. But we don't. BT provides us with mail accounts too, and we don't use them either. They appear to be less bad than Comcast. Not difficult. Comcast gets binned here too. :) I'm pleased to have a couple of replies to my posting, but still no answers to the question: how to recognize junk on the existence of a particular header without concern for its content. You have an answer. Run your own mail server, and you can do whatever you like. Rely on Yahoo - or practically anyone else - and you'll get what they want you to get. You haven't said how you're getting the mail into Evolution but you could in theory use something like fetchmail and pipe the messages through your own local filters if you really wanted to. But then if you go on holiday, and your filters are on the PC at home, well... -- 73, Ged. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
Hi there, On Thu, 12 Jun 2014, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 16:04 +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: The right place is the mail server, which should recognize that the mail is junk AND REJECT IT. ... This is far too simplistic. Not all mail identified as spam is in fact spam, and only the final recipient can make the call. There is no one canonically right answer for every situation, so there is a place for client-side spam filtering in many use cases. Please pay attention. I didn't say that the final recipient shouldn't make the call, I said that he should make the call before the mail is accepted by his mail server, so that the spammer doesn't get another $currency_unit for sending his spam. This necessarily means that no mail client sees the spam, which in turn means that Evolution is not the place to do this. Clearer? -- 73, Ged. ` ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 16:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 16:04 +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: > > The right place is the mail server, which should recognize that > > the mail is junk AND REJECT IT. Putting it in some 'spam' store > > on your computer is no good at all, because the message has been > > accepted by the mail server and the spammer will get paid for it. > > If the mail is rejected, as opposed to being accepted and binned, > > the spammer hasn't done his job, which in my book is a Good Thing. > > This is far too simplistic. Not all mail identified as spam is in fact > spam, and only the final recipient can make the call. There is no one > canonically right answer for every situation, so there is a place for > client-side spam filtering in many use cases. Not only that, Yahoo manages the server operated by my ISP, which is ATT, so I am stuck with them. They appear to be less bad than Comcast. I'm pleased to have a couple of replies to my posting, but still no answers to the question: how to recognize junk on the existence of a particular header without concern for its content. Thanks - jon ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 16:04 +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: > The right place is the mail server, which should recognize that > the mail is junk AND REJECT IT. Putting it in some 'spam' store > on your computer is no good at all, because the message has been > accepted by the mail server and the spammer will get paid for it. > If the mail is rejected, as opposed to being accepted and binned, > the spammer hasn't done his job, which in my book is a Good Thing. This is far too simplistic. Not all mail identified as spam is in fact spam, and only the final recipient can make the call. There is no one canonically right answer for every situation, so there is a place for client-side spam filtering in many use cases. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Recognizing "Junk" Header from ISP
Hi there, On Thu, 12 Jun 2014, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Yahoo, my ISP, marks messages that it thinks are junk ... H. In my book, even using a Yahoo server means the mail is probably junk, so I reject the lot. I would like evolution to recognize such messages as junk. The mail client isn't really the right place for this. The right place is the mail server, which should recognize that the mail is junk AND REJECT IT. Putting it in some 'spam' store on your computer is no good at all, because the message has been accepted by the mail server and the spammer will get paid for it. If the mail is rejected, as opposed to being accepted and binned, the spammer hasn't done his job, which in my book is a Good Thing. That way, the sender doesn't get the confirmation he needs that the mail was delivered to a genuine address, and that means the address is less valuable to the criminals. If he knows it's a real address the criminal can sell it for more cash than if he just made it up (which of course a lot of them do anyway). So you really need to ditch Yahoo and operate your own mail server. Then you can irritate some spammers. :) -- 73, Ged. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
