Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
ti., 13.10.2009 kl. 08.52 +0100, skrev Alpar Juttner: I understand that you don't like top posting (neither do I), but is that indeed _so much of a hassle_ for you that you feel entitled to advise people rather not to post if they can only do top posting? And/or advise them to change their cell phone (btw. to an otherwise much worse one) just because of this top posting issue? Regards, Alpar Legitimate question, I think. The thing is, once you start to loosen up on netiquette and common curtosy, things get ugly very quickly. If you've spent a little time on IRC recently, for example, you'll agree that the number of dyslexics there are striking. In some networks, on some channels, more than 80% have dyslexia these days, it seems. They don't, of course. They just say they do, because if they say that, people nod understandingly and stop complaining about their terrible language. And the lazy kids see that, and think: hey, who on IRC can prove I _don't_ have dyslexia?. I hope my point is becoming obvious: there is nothing more contagious than a bad habit. If we stop caring about netiquette because people use bad MUAs, then that's an excuse. My client can't do it turns into It's a lot of work in my client, then I don't know how in my client and then, Who cares. And if the users doesn't care, why should the developers? This is not a good situation. The norm is easily contaminated on the internet. I'm sorry you have a bad client, and I'm saddened to hear that your employer forces you to use bad tools in your work. I don't think the rest of the world should help covering up their mistakes, though. Web designers have been doing that for years, with that browser from that company, and what is the result? New webdesigners are educated to write poor quality markup in order to conform to the contaminated norm. Sincerely, Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
Dear Matthias, I see the closed source BB is not welcome on this list. But can I still use my open source Android here? It's built in MTA still support top posting only. I understand that you don't like top posting (neither do I), but is that indeed _so much of a hassle_ for you that you feel entitled to advise people rather not to post if they can only do top posting? And/or advise them to change their cell phone (btw. to an otherwise much worse one) just because of this top posting issue? Regards, Alpar On Tue, 2009-10-13 at 05:47 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Monday, October 12, 2009 a las 08:30:21PM -0400, Art Alexion escribió: I use a Blackberry because it is the phone my employer requires me to use. We use Blackberries because we use Exchange, which incidentally, is the same reason I use Evolution. You say you would never use it? Perhaps jobs are so plentiful for you that you can pick one based on the cell phone you prefer to use. I understand and I can imagine that an employer requires me to use a BB for business too. But your employe can not request you to use a BB to communicate in your spare time or to post to OpsenSource mailing list. For my work I have to use Evo and Exchange too, but for this mail I'm typing it into the vim and the MUA (thanks for your correction) is mutt and the MTA is sendmail. This is even true, when I travel. Then I have a small EeePC 900 and my cellphone is a Linux based Openmoko Freerunner. Top-posting not only violates the Netiquette, but violates what we human beeings normaly do on read: we read from top to down. It is an affront to me and normaly I tend to just delete such mails. HIH matthias ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
El día Monday, October 12, 2009 a las 08:20:35AM -0400, Derek McDaniel escribió: El día Monday, October 12, 2009 a las 06:36:10AM -0400, Art Alexion escribió: Sometimes, indeed, some of us just can't. Like now, when I am reading mail on my Blackberry. The BB inserts the entire uneditable quote below your response. -- Art Alexion MIS/Central Office Support Resources for Human Development (sent from my cell phone) If this is really not configurable, you're using a buggy and wrong MTA. I have noticed this on my BB as well and I haven't looked into the configuration to see but I make it a personal note not to reply to lists on my BB for this reason. I know (from my colleagues) that even OutLook can not quote correctly and you have to install some tool called OutLook QuoteFix, but then it works. If the BB is not capable of this, I would either use an OpenSource (Linux based) phone, the Openmoko Freerunner (which I'm actually using) or an OpenSource base netbook, like the EeePC900 with FreeBSD on it. I would never use an gadget like the BB which is restricting me in that; Just because it restricts you in 1 place doesn't mean its a horrible device. I have used my BB for 2 years and find it much more accommodating than an open source phone I have tried in the past. matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Vote NO to EU The Lisbon Treaty: http://www.no-means-no.eu Please be so kind and quote correctly. Don't let your text Just because ... I have tried in the past. appear as it was said by me and even signed by me. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Vote NO to EU The Lisbon Treaty: http://www.no-means-no.eu ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 14:16 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote: If this is really not configurable, you're using a buggy and wrong MTA. I think you mean MUA here. poc ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
Must not be that similar. Don't be so dismissive when it appears have a clue about this one. -- Art Alexion MIS/Central Office Support Resources for Human Development (sent from my cell phone) - Original Message - From: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org To: evolution-list@gnome.org evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Mon Oct 12 06:42:48 2009 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ] On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 06:36:10AM -0400, Art Alexion wrote: Sometimes, indeed, some of us just can't. Like now, when I am reading mail on my Blackberry. The BB inserts the entire uneditable quote below your response. What rubbish! My very similar Nokia E71 allows me to bottom post and/or edit the whole of the reply including quoted original message. -- Art Alexion MIS/Central Office Support Resources for Human Development (sent from my cell phone) - Original Message - From: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org To: evolution-list@gnome.org evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Sun Oct 11 17:15:18 2009 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ] Top Post - Good Bottom Post - Good Mixing Top Post and Bottom Post - Bad How about a thread where some people top-post and others bottom-post (leading to a mixture of both styles in the same quoted message)? If that is bad, why don't we just standardize ... Which is the entire point; read any of the very good netiquette documents (even RFCs!). The *standard* is to bottom-post (or better: inline) your response. But that clearly isn't going to happen. We could just standardize - you just need to convince everyone who top-posts and also everyone who can't trim signatures and extraneous crap from their replies. ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list -- Chris Green ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
I use a Blackberry because it is the phone my employer requires me to use. We use Blackberries because we use Exchange, which incidentally, is the same reason I use Evolution. You say you would never use it? Perhaps jobs are so plentiful for you that you can pick one based on the cell phone you prefer to use. By the way, Exchange is the MTA (mail transport agent). The mail client on the Blackberry (as well as Outlook, and Evolution) is the MUA (mail user agent). -- Art Alexion MIS/Central Office Support Resources for Human Development (sent from my cell phone) - Original Message - From: Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de To: Art Alexion Cc: awill...@opengroupware.us awill...@opengroupware.us; evolution-list@gnome.org evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Mon Oct 12 08:16:26 2009 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ] El día Monday, October 12, 2009 a las 06:36:10AM -0400, Art Alexion escribió: Sometimes, indeed, some of us just can't. Like now, when I am reading mail on my Blackberry. The BB inserts the entire uneditable quote below your response. -- Art Alexion MIS/Central Office Support Resources for Human Development (sent from my cell phone) If this is really not configurable, you're using a buggy and wrong MTA. I know (from my colleagues) that even OutLook can not quote correctly and you have to install some tool called OutLook QuoteFix, but then it works. If the BB is not capable of this, I would either use an OpenSource (Linux based) phone, the Openmoko Freerunner (which I'm actually using) or an OpenSource base netbook, like the EeePC900 with FreeBSD on it. I would never use an gadget like the BB which is restricting me in that; matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Vote NO to EU The Lisbon Treaty: http://www.no-means-no.eu ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
El día Monday, October 12, 2009 a las 08:30:21PM -0400, Art Alexion escribió: I use a Blackberry because it is the phone my employer requires me to use. We use Blackberries because we use Exchange, which incidentally, is the same reason I use Evolution. You say you would never use it? Perhaps jobs are so plentiful for you that you can pick one based on the cell phone you prefer to use. I understand and I can imagine that an employer requires me to use a BB for business too. But your employe can not request you to use a BB to communicate in your spare time or to post to OpsenSource mailing list. For my work I have to use Evo and Exchange too, but for this mail I'm typing it into the vim and the MUA (thanks for your correction) is mutt and the MTA is sendmail. This is even true, when I travel. Then I have a small EeePC 900 and my cellphone is a Linux based Openmoko Freerunner. Top-posting not only violates the Netiquette, but violates what we human beeings normaly do on read: we read from top to down. It is an affront to me and normaly I tend to just delete such mails. HIH matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Vote NO to EU The Lisbon Treaty: http://www.no-means-no.eu ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 10:09 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Top Post - Good Bottom Post - Good Mixing Top Post and Bottom Post - Bad How about a thread where some people top-post and others bottom-post (leading to a mixture of both styles in the same quoted message)? If that is bad, why don't we just standardize ... poc ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
Top Post - Good Bottom Post - Good Mixing Top Post and Bottom Post - Bad How about a thread where some people top-post and others bottom-post (leading to a mixture of both styles in the same quoted message)? If that is bad, why don't we just standardize ... Which is the entire point; read any of the very good netiquette documents (even RFCs!). The *standard* is to bottom-post (or better: inline) your response. But that clearly isn't going to happen. We could just standardize - you just need to convince everyone who top-posts and also everyone who can't trim signatures and extraneous crap from their replies. ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 17:15 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: Top Post - Good Bottom Post - Good Mixing Top Post and Bottom Post - Bad How about a thread where some people top-post and others bottom-post (leading to a mixture of both styles in the same quoted message)? If that is bad, why don't we just standardize ... Which is the entire point; read any of the very good netiquette documents (even RFCs!). The *standard* is to bottom-post (or better: inline) your response. But that clearly isn't going to happen. We could just standardize - you just need to convince everyone who top-posts and also everyone who can't trim signatures and extraneous crap from their replies. That was kind of my point. I was being ironic. poc ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Top Post - Bottom Post [ was Re: stability/Jewett ]
On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 13:29 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 10:09 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Top Post - Good Bottom Post - Good Mixing Top Post and Bottom Post - Bad How about a thread where some people top-post and others bottom-post (leading to a mixture of both styles in the same quoted message)? If Precisely ... what we should *not* do. On technical mailing lists, where posting is customarily at the bottom, I bottom post. On business and personal lists, (and my neighborhood list), where posting is customarily at the top, I top post. jon ___ Evolution-list mailing list Evolution-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
