Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[laurent . duperval]

On  7 Jun, Anton Graham wrote:
> 
> Submitted 07-Jun-00 by Muzza:
>> Unfortunately Helix doesn't check your system first, it just presents you with a
>> list of upgrades that are available and it's up to you to remember what you
>> have already got.  They do 'date' them though so that's not too difficult.  But
>> yeah, that would be a very nice feature.
>>  Muzza.
>  
> Actually, the helix-update package *does* check your system first.  It
> compares the version numbers available on the site with the ones in
> your database of installed rpms.
> 
> 

One question, do upgrades mean the *entire* system or periodic updates of
various packages? A number of times in the past I've wanted to update a
single package (this is with another distro, not Mandrake) and couldn't find
it for my distro. So I always end up compiling and installing myself.

Case in point: the helix installation messed up the international keyboards
on my system. I can't get the keyboard applet to work anymore and I really
need it? So whatcha gonna do? Compile GNOME myself, I guess. Although, maybe
I'll get my hands on a new 7.1 distro and try that beforehand.

L

-- 
Laurent Duperval   "Montreal winters are an intelligence test,
U|Force - Java Center and we who are here have failed it."
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Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[george r.]

On 7 Jun 2000, at 10:56, Lee Willis wrote:

> Denis HAVLIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> It'd be nice to "upgrade in a window" like with Helix. Ie run a nice
> little app which checks your systems tells you which apps can be
> upgraded safely, lets you pick which ones to upgrade and goes and does
> it. It should also tell you other things that it thinks need upgrading
> but might damage your system/can't be upgraded while running (kernel etc
> :) ) and prompts you to reboot and do a "normal" upgrade if you want to
> upgrade those packages.
> 
> Probably quite tricky, but you did ask ... :)

This feature is also available in Debian and Corel distros. It would be 
great to have RpmDrake check for updated stable packages (along with 
it's dependecies if it's necesary) or uninstalled ones either on CD, or/and 
on a Mandrake ftp at your choice. This would save a lot of time searching 
for which package is or isn't upgraded yet.   

---
George

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Muzza]

My apologies it does just that - my error was that I had downloaded the tarballs
and did the old 'rpm -bt xxx.tar.gz' on them.  For some reason, probably naming
conventions, the update tool didn't 'see' them.  Oh boy, it's been a long week!

Muzza.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000, Anton Graham wrote:
> Submitted 07-Jun-00 by Muzza:
> > Unfortunately Helix doesn't check your system first, it just presents you with a
> > list of upgrades that are available and it's up to you to remember what you
> > have already got.  They do 'date' them though so that's not too difficult.  But
> > yeah, that would be a very nice feature.
> > Muzza.
>  
> Actually, the helix-update package *does* check your system first.  It
> compares the version numbers available on the site with the ones in
> your database of installed rpms.
> 
> 
> -- 
>_
>  _|_|_
>   ( )   *Anton Graham
>   /v\  / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> /(   )X
>  (m_m)   GPG ID: 18F78541
> Penguin Powered!
-- 
Linux - The ultimate Anti-Virus solution for Windows!

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Anton Graham]

Submitted 07-Jun-00 by Muzza:
> Unfortunately Helix doesn't check your system first, it just presents you with a
> list of upgrades that are available and it's up to you to remember what you
> have already got.  They do 'date' them though so that's not too difficult.  But
> yeah, that would be a very nice feature.
>   Muzza.
 
Actually, the helix-update package *does* check your system first.  It
compares the version numbers available on the site with the ones in
your database of installed rpms.


-- 
   _
 _|_|_
  ( )   *Anton Graham
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/(   )X
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Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Muzza]

Unfortunately Helix doesn't check your system first, it just presents you with a
list of upgrades that are available and it's up to you to remember what you
have already got.  They do 'date' them though so that's not too difficult.  But
yeah, that would be a very nice feature.
Muzza.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000, Lee Willis wrote:
> Denis HAVLIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> It'd be nice to "upgrade in a window" like with Helix. Ie run a nice
> little app which checks your systems tells you which apps can be
> upgraded safely, lets you pick which ones to upgrade and goes and does
> it. It should also tell you other things that it thinks need upgrading
> but might damage your system/can't be upgraded while running (kernel etc
> :) ) and prompts you to reboot and do a "normal" upgrade if you want to
> upgrade those packages.
> 
> Probably quite tricky, but you did ask ... :)
> 
> Lee
> -- 
> | Lee Willis  Fixed cost Internet access available @
> | Application Developer  http://www.plus.net
> | PlusNet Technologies Ltd
> +---"PlusNet  - The smarter way to Internet"
-- 
Linux - The ultimate Anti-Virus solution for Windows!

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Lee Willis]

Denis HAVLIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What do you expect from upgrade?

It'd be nice to "upgrade in a window" like with Helix. Ie run a nice
little app which checks your systems tells you which apps can be
upgraded safely, lets you pick which ones to upgrade and goes and does
it. It should also tell you other things that it thinks need upgrading
but might damage your system/can't be upgraded while running (kernel etc
:) ) and prompts you to reboot and do a "normal" upgrade if you want to
upgrade those packages.

Probably quite tricky, but you did ask ... :)

Lee
-- 
| Lee Willis  Fixed cost Internet access available @
| Application Developer  http://www.plus.net
| PlusNet Technologies Ltd
+---"PlusNet  - The smarter way to Internet"

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[John Aldrich]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2000, you wrote:
> I am a user who found upgrades from Win95 to Win98 worked out
> about 1 situation in 7, so I would not fault anyone who found
> upgrading something that was 6 to 10 times as sophisticated and
> complicated to be an enormous task.  Getting from RH6.0 to L-M7.1
> is an amazing feat, and convinces me once again that I made the
> right decision in choosing Mandrake.
> 
Hell...Win98 to Win98SE didn't work for me! ;-) OTOH, IIRC,
Win95 to Win98 went MOSTLY smoothly... :-)
John

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Ron Stodden]

Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> 
> What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> I am quite sure there are other ways to do upgrade, and that opinions on
> "what is the best upgrade" will be wildly different. So, what do you
> think?

What to do with the /etc directory is a major problem.   The problem
is what to do with any customisations found there.In general the
upgrader should NOT reset them back to Mandrake-vanilla.

I think the upgrader should never touch /etc/fstab or any of the
mount point directories mentioned in it, and should not create
missing directories (such as /mnt/floppy and /mnt/cdrom) unless they
are required by /etc/fstab.  The upgrader should check that all mount
points mentioned in /etc/fstab exist.

Perhaps the best approach is to compare all the /etc files with what
the installer would want to make them (mandrake-vanilla).All
discrepancies should be flagged to the user at the line by line level
for retain/reset decision, with that decision recorded in a log file
in such a way that some utility can be driven by that file to re-make
all the /etc customisations. 

-- 

Regards,

Ron. [AU] - sent by Mandrake Linux.

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Civileme]

Jay Summet wrote:
> 
> Suggest you default to CONSERVATIVE but allow the user (perhaps in EXPERT
> mode?) to chose from the others.
> 
> Jay Summet
> 
> > 1) CONSERVATIVE: just freshen those packages which can be freshened and
> > leave the rest of the system as it is

The default setting


> >
> > 2) FORCED: Force instalation of a new "core" system, even if this
> > means downgroading, or breaks some functionality of the already installed
> > system, then go on with freshening the rest of the packages.
> >
> > 3) REPAIR: Like conservative, but try to repair existing packages too,
> > If we find out that some of the files are missing, or that someone fooled
> > with binaries, reinstall the package (even if it means downgrading!)
> >
> > 4) FORCED REPAIR: like 3, but make sure that "core" system is installed in
> > the end, like in 2
> >
> > 5) VANDAL: force install of the core, and upgrade of those packages we
> > provide. The rest can go to hell. ;->>
> >
> > 6) SUPER-VANDAL: like 5, but i make sure that all packages older than one
> > year are removed from the system. (ups, I just found another variable for
> > sorting packages!)
> > 

The custom or expert settings


Plus

7) INTERACTIVE wherein the same info is displayed about a package
as the info in individual package selection and the user
interactively marks the action to be taken  (a)Freshen, b)Install
if not there and no dependencies are broken, c)Warn about
dependencies and ask what to do again, d)Damn the torpedoes,
strip out what is necessary to make it work, 4)Double-damn the
torpedoes, strip out everything, including what has been
previously installed this upgrade to make this work [like postfix
has been installed and nmh and fetchmail and mutt, but now we
GOTTA have sendmail, so raze and pillage]

Cross-platform upgrades might well have their limits.  I can see
it with RH or Caldera, but (coughs) how about the other major rpm
user who also likes to modify the kernel?  And the distros based
on dbm?  Cheaper and quicker in those cases to back up data and
do a fresh install with recompilation (by the user) of favorite
packages still desired from the old distro? As much as some users
might want it, there is a limit to what this tweak can do, beyond
which "There Be Tygers" and people posting email prefaced with 

 "WDYTWA, Magicians?"

In line with that, there are some things an upgrade should NOT
offer to do, such as change filesystems in place.  This can be
extremely dangerous in the cases where it IS possible, which it
more likely will not be.  Naturally, as part of what an upgrade
can and cannot do there must be explanations of why one can or
cannot do such things, which I will happily volunteer to assist
with.

I am a user who found upgrades from Win95 to Win98 worked out
about 1 situation in 7, so I would not fault anyone who found
upgrading something that was 6 to 10 times as sophisticated and
complicated to be an enormous task.  Getting from RH6.0 to L-M7.1
is an amazing feat, and convinces me once again that I made the
right decision in choosing Mandrake.

Civileme

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Pj]

I like Jay's suggestion. New users like myself with no *nix experience
don't know how to deal with broken, or disfunctional apps. If I had more
experience I would want a choice.

The problem as I see it is this..if Mandrake gives us what we all want
we'll have a
500-pound monster that still won't work smoothly with some machine
configurations. Downloading is a bane to all of us, but in this case
smaller/easier is better and a system that purs is worth some
inconveniences,imho.  

Personally I'd be happy to see my video card, monitor and scanner
supported as well as
a better CRT sizing capability. You can't please all of the people all
of the time, but Mandrake does a good job of giving us a great product. 

Pj

Jay Summet wrote:
> 
> Suggest you default to CONSERVATIVE but allow the user (perhaps in EXPERT
> mode?) to chose from the others.
> 
> Jay Summet

Re: [expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Jay Summet]

Suggest you default to CONSERVATIVE but allow the user (perhaps in EXPERT
mode?) to chose from the others.

Jay Summet

> 1) CONSERVATIVE: just freshen those packages which can be freshened and
> leave the rest of the system as it is
> 
> 2) FORCED: Force instalation of a new "core" system, even if this
> means downgroading, or breaks some functionality of the already installed
> system, then go on with freshening the rest of the packages.
> 
> 3) REPAIR: Like conservative, but try to repair existing packages too,
> If we find out that some of the files are missing, or that someone fooled
> with binaries, reinstall the package (even if it means downgrading!)
> 
> 4) FORCED REPAIR: like 3, but make sure that "core" system is installed in
> the end, like in 2
> 
> 5) VANDAL: force install of the core, and upgrade of those packages we
> provide. The rest can go to hell. ;->>
> 
> 6) SUPER-VANDAL: like 5, but i make sure that all packages older than one
> year are removed from the system. (ups, I just found another variable for
> sorting packages!)
> ...

[expert] DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Denis HAVLIK]

What do you expect from upgrade?

cu
Denis
--
One topic from a dark side .-)

Upgrading a Linux-Mandrake system has been our nightmare for quite some
time. François has worked a lot on this for 7.1, and at the end I was
actually able to upgrade from RH 6.0 system, and end up with a fully
functional Mandrake 7.1 system. Rpm database got quite "poluted", and we
have to do some dirty hacks for Qt, but at least one gets a working
system, which is a good start.

Big question is: What should an upgrade actually do?

Below are some answers I could think of:

1) CONSERVATIVE: just freshen those packages which can be freshened and
leave the rest of the system as it is

2) FORCED: Force instalation of a new "core" system, even if this
means downgroading, or breaks some functionality of the already installed
system, then go on with freshening the rest of the packages.

3) REPAIR: Like conservative, but try to repair existing packages too,
If we find out that some of the files are missing, or that someone fooled
with binaries, reinstall the package (even if it means downgrading!)

4) FORCED REPAIR: like 3, but make sure that "core" system is installed in
the end, like in 2

5) VANDAL: force install of the core, and upgrade of those packages we
provide. The rest can go to hell. ;->>

6) SUPER-VANDAL: like 5, but i make sure that all packages older than one
year are removed from the system. (ups, I just found another variable for
sorting packages!)
...

All of the above mentioned can (must) also be combined with possibility to
add new non-core packages during upgrade, and maybe even to remove some of
the currently installed packages in "custom" and "expert" mode. 

I am quite sure there are other ways to do upgrade, and that opinions on
"what is the best upgrade" will be wildly different. So, what do you
think?

cu
Denis  
 -- 
-
Dr. Denis Havlik
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