Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Ernest N. Wilcox Jr.]

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 - Denis HAVLIK, you wrote:
  |  Hi, folks
  |  
  |  It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
  |  that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
  |  discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
  |  worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
  |  
  |  :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
  |  
  |  cu
  | Denis
  |  -- 
  |  -
  |  Dr. Denis Havlik
  |  Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  |  Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
  |  ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
  |  Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
  |  spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

For the upgrade option in the installer, I would like to see a listing of
installed packages which already exist on my system, and any available updated
packages perhaps in a second column. Using the two column concept would
also allow for display of packages not currently installed on the system,
(simply show an empty field where the installed package would normally be
displayed). The user then could click on a package line to get better
information on the package update in a pop-up window, something like what we see
in kpackage or rpmdrake.

This obviously would logically fit best in the "expert" install / update
procedure.

For an update utility as a part of the distribution, a windowed application
perhaps as an extension of rpmdrake would work for me. Add an "update"
command line switch which could be entered in the command dialog in most any
desk top "launcher" configuration window (rpmdrake -update) which would modify
the behavior of rpmdrake such that it search for and display update packages
from the web mirror of the user's choice. This information could be entered
and saved in the preferences dialogue, so the user will not have to go through
the process of "wait while I download the list of update sites" each time the
updater is started. Otherwise the extension could function much like the
existing MandrakeUpdate utility does ... just an idea.

-- 
___
Ernie ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Fran Parker]

Hi Denis,

Upgrade ... the biggest thing I have always expected from an upgrade
no matter what the OS, is safety and reliability.  I don't want to lose
what I have and I want it to reliably upgrade the 'packages' or 'programs'
included with the operating system while maintaining compatibility
with the hardware I have.

Of course, new and different features without compromising safety,
security and reliability.

Tall order, but necessary.

Thanks for asking,
Bambi


Denis HAVLIK wrote:

> Hi, folks
>
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
>
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
>
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

RE: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Bill Shirley]

So what's in /etc/resolv.conf?
What does nslookup www.linux-mandrake.com say?

Bill

-Original Message-
From: McDonald, John GSM1 (SIMASD) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 5:11 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)


well i am not sure how you got my e-mail but i'll play! Linux Mandrake user
10 months now. I am up to V7.0 from 6.0 and lovin it! Realistically though
the only reason to upgrade is security or hardware functionallity, but then
all you need to do is upgrade the required libs. If your kernel does it's
job now without flaw or error then there is no real reason for a complete
upgrade. well in my opinion that is.
i do have a question for you though, how do i fix a broken DNS resolve? Ok
here is the scenario...

AMD K6-2 500 PC-100 196MB SDRAM 3COM NIC system up for 29+ days after new
board install. network connectivity via cable modem, road runner is the ISP.
good fast connetion until yesterday morning around 0600! here is what i can
do:

I can ping localhost
I can ping an IP 24.24.244.24
I can obtain an IP with either the ifup eth0 or /etc/rc.d/init.d/network
start commands
I CAN'T resolve a DNS i.e - ping www.linux-mandrake.com, will not resolve
the IP.

all ISP information is correct the NIC is configured correctly and has been
running for 28 days without error or conflict. my ISP has reset my account
and when I ifup eth0 or /etc/rc.d/init.d/network start i can get an IP and
it has been verified by my ISP as correct. I have read all my books (A whole
heap of them!) and cannot seem to find an answer that works or addresses my
issues. I DO NOT want to shut the system down. I am in an uptime competition
with my neighbors NT machine.
I am, or was running a firewall along with numerous other security
implementations, again this system configuration has not changed in the last
month!

Have any ideas?

Mac

-Original Message-
From: vern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 7:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)


I expect to be able to upgrade from a prior version much easier
than I did from Mdk 6.1 to Mdk 7.0.  I would want to upgrade without
having to trash my present setup. I tried to upgrade from 6.1 earlier
this year and some things functioned some didn't, I had to do a clean
install to get a full functioning version. It seems this would be a
"doable thing" with a distro based on RPM's.
vern

Denis HAVLIK wrote:
>
> Hi, folks
>
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
>
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
>
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik<http://www.ap.univie.ac.at/users/havlik>
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

RE: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[McDonald, John GSM1 (SIMASD)]

well i am not sure how you got my e-mail but i'll play! Linux Mandrake user
10 months now. I am up to V7.0 from 6.0 and lovin it! Realistically though
the only reason to upgrade is security or hardware functionallity, but then
all you need to do is upgrade the required libs. If your kernel does it's
job now without flaw or error then there is no real reason for a complete
upgrade. well in my opinion that is.
i do have a question for you though, how do i fix a broken DNS resolve? Ok
here is the scenario...

AMD K6-2 500 PC-100 196MB SDRAM 3COM NIC system up for 29+ days after new
board install. network connectivity via cable modem, road runner is the ISP.
good fast connetion until yesterday morning around 0600! here is what i can
do:

I can ping localhost
I can ping an IP 24.24.244.24
I can obtain an IP with either the ifup eth0 or /etc/rc.d/init.d/network
start commands
I CAN'T resolve a DNS i.e - ping www.linux-mandrake.com, will not resolve
the IP. 

all ISP information is correct the NIC is configured correctly and has been
running for 28 days without error or conflict. my ISP has reset my account
and when I ifup eth0 or /etc/rc.d/init.d/network start i can get an IP and
it has been verified by my ISP as correct. I have read all my books (A whole
heap of them!) and cannot seem to find an answer that works or addresses my
issues. I DO NOT want to shut the system down. I am in an uptime competition
with my neighbors NT machine.
I am, or was running a firewall along with numerous other security
implementations, again this system configuration has not changed in the last
month! 

Have any ideas?

Mac 

-Original Message-
From: vern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 7:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)


I expect to be able to upgrade from a prior version much easier
than I did from Mdk 6.1 to Mdk 7.0.  I would want to upgrade without
having to trash my present setup. I tried to upgrade from 6.1 earlier
this year and some things functioned some didn't, I had to do a clean
install to get a full functioning version. It seems this would be a
"doable thing" with a distro based on RPM's.
vern

Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> 
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
> 
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik<http://www.ap.univie.ac.at/users/havlik>
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[vern]

I expect to be able to upgrade from a prior version much easier
than I did from Mdk 6.1 to Mdk 7.0.  I would want to upgrade without
having to trash my present setup. I tried to upgrade from 6.1 earlier
this year and some things functioned some didn't, I had to do a clean
install to get a full functioning version. It seems this would be a
"doable thing" with a distro based on RPM's.
vern

Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> 
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
> 
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Dave Lers]

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000, Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:

It seems like a catch 22 as its probably more important to those of us with a
minimal grasp on Linux yet this minimal grasp limits our ability to respond. 

 > :~>What do you expect from upgrade?

I have a hard time with installs and upgrades. It would be nice if upgrades
could recognize my choices of sendmail and proftp (e.g. upgrades keep
installing wu-ftp). The dificulty is designing and maintaining that chosen
system design.

A report on non-Mandrake packages (e.g. htdig) after an upgrade would be handy
as I could check functionality, see if newer versions are available etc. Heck a
report on what changes the upgrade made, problems it found (fixed or couldn't
do anything with), etc. would be real nice.

> 5) VANDAL: force install of the core, and upgrade of those packages we
> provide. The rest can go to hell. ;->>

Might have possibilities if it only upgrades installed packages and reports
on other packages...define core

> 2) FORCED: Force instalation of a new "core" system, even if this
> means downgroading, or breaks some functionality of the already installed
> system, then go on with freshening the rest of the packages.

For this to be viable it seems you have to check and report the packages that
might break or be newer than what the 'upgrade' would install, before actually
doing it. I'm not sure how a new 'core' might be a downgrade, I doubt I upgrade
'core' rpms (then again are linuxconf and bind 'core'?)

> 3) REPAIR: Like conservative, but try to repair existing packages too,
> If we find out that some of the files are missing, or that someone fooled
> with binaries, reinstall the package (even if it means downgrading!)

I'm not sure what to say on this one as it seems I have a number of rpms with
missing files, I figured there was a reason for this. Is a repair really a
repair?

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Brian T. Schellenberger]

Seems to me that there's been *lots* of discussion on this, but . . .

1. What I *expect* is for an upgrade to mess up my system completely, so
I don't even bother trying; I just backup my personal files and do a
"from scratch" install.  This is based on long and unhappy experience
with Linux upgrades, and also based on a personality quirk that doesn't
mind the from-scratch approach so much.  Of course, I *never* install
"dot releases"; I only install when my system is getting way out of date
or I have new hardware or a new system that really calls out for an
upgrade.

2. What I would *like* for an upgrade is for it to "just work": 

- For all packages which are still in their pristine, "out of the box"
form to simply be upgraded.

- For all packages which have been in any way customized to resolve
conflicts:
  > If the /etc config files have been modified, and the format is the
same as before,
they should be left alone; if the format of the file has changed, my
customizations
should be preserved; if this is not possible, then the upgrade
should ask me to resolve
the conflicts by popping up an xterm, if nothing else, and letting
me use my favorite
editor to patch things up by hand, while showing me the info on the
changes.  

Note that since my favorite editor (xvile) isn't in the Mandrake
distribution, this
implies that the upgrade takes place in something more like my
regular working
environment than the usual install environment.

  > If I upgraded the package by installing a newer RPM, figuring out
which one is newer
and going with the latest one, unless the version on the new install
is the same as the
previous install, in which case I presumably downgraded it
deliberately.

  > If I upgraded the package by replacing it with a tarball version,
noting that and 
asking if I want the tarball version left alone, deleted and
replaced by the package,
or install the package without deleting the tarball.  (Possible
since I always do
tarball installs to /usr/local, and RPMs never do.)

- To keep a log of any conflicts or questionable cases.

- To set things up so that for any packages which changed their
user-level setup, a sort of "mini install" would come up for each user
as they log in which would let them resolve conflicts in a similar
manner.  Thus, if the new KDE desktop defaults change all around, give
the user with a customized desktop a chance to integrate the chnages if
they want.



Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> 
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
> 
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

-- 
"Brian, the man from babble-on"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brian T. Schellenberger  http://www.babbleon.org
Support http://www.eff.org.  Support decss defendents.
Support http://www.programming-freedom.org.  Boycott amazon.com.

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Pj]

Denis,

The problem with expectations is that they area rarely met. However, my
expectations are a flawless install and a program that is not a bloated,
buggy mess. At a minimum I expect:
1- my video card and monitor to be supported without being put in the
position of having to immediately update the drivers from another site.
2- Mandrake to include compatible third-party apps or exclude them until
they are compatible. 
3- to be able to register any version of Mandrake I purchase regardless
of the distro or release date. If Mandrake sells it retail, the distro
should be supported and that isn't the practice now. 

I don't know about the rest of the list, but I am tired of buying PR in
fancy packages and getting software I can't install. It doesn't mean I
don't love Mdk, I do, but after several months of trying to get a stable
system, I'd like to see some positive results on my end. 

Sorry you asked? 

Pj
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> 
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
> 
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> cu
> Denis
> --
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [expert] Re: DISCUSION Upgrade (fwd)

[Muzza]

Hey Denis,
Give us some time to download/burn iso's or however we we go about
getting the latest and greatest version 7.1.  When that's bedded down, you can
expect the usual flood of replies ;).
Thanks,
Muzza.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000, Denis HAVLIK wrote:
> Hi, folks
> 
> It feels strange when I have to reply to my own message but... I thought
> that "upgrade" is an extremely important topic, yet no one wants to
> discuss it. Does it mean that you are not interested (so we should stop
> worying about upgrade) or what? I repeat:
> 
> :~>What do you expect from upgrade?
> 
> cu
>   Denis
> -- 
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me
> spread! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
-- 
Linux - The ultimate Anti-Virus solution for Windows!