[FairfieldLife] Re: Guru Dev - What do we say is a jagadguru?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rf...@... wrote: In samsara there are two sorts of people - astika (religious) and nastika (unbeliever) - in the world of the atheist there isn't any guru. *Not* to get into debating What Guru Dev believed or didn't believe (because the guy means nothing to me and I don't give a crap), I should point out that the above intro to this talk makes a pretty heavy assumption. That is, that only those who believe in God can be spiritual seekers or appreciate a guru. Not true. Buddhists are essentially atheists in that they have no need to postulate a sentient God of any kind. That does not mean that they are not seekers of enlightenment, or that they wouldn't benefit from working with a guru, if they encountered someone they chose to address by that name. Just sayin' that when you're talking to a group of people who *assume* some mighty heavy-duty things about the nature of the universe (such as...uh...a belief in God), you might wanna spell that out right at the beginning, so that you're not excluding whole groups of spiritual seekers. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Guru Dev - What do we say is a jagadguru?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rflex@ wrote: In samsara there are two sorts of people - astika (religious) and nastika (unbeliever) - in the world of the atheist there isn't any guru. *Not* to get into debating What Guru Dev believed or didn't believe (because the guy means nothing to me and I don't give a crap), I should point out that the above intro to this talk makes a pretty heavy assumption. That is, that only those who believe in God can be spiritual seekers or appreciate a guru. Not true. Buddhists are essentially atheists in that they have no need to postulate a sentient God of any kind. That does not mean that they are not seekers of enlightenment, or that they wouldn't benefit from working with a guru, if they encountered someone they chose to address by that name. Anyone can choose anyone they wish to be a 'guru' of just about anything. Generically, the word 'guru' simply means 'teacher.' Guru Dev was defining the meaning of a jagad-guru, not a generic 'guru.' Just sayin' that when you're talking to a group of people who *assume* some mighty heavy-duty things about the nature of the universe (such as...uh...a belief in God), you might wanna spell that out right at the beginning, so that you're not excluding whole groups of spiritual seekers. :-) The snippet from Guru Dev suggests the concept that the non-differentiated formless Absolute is included as a theistic concept - as Guru Dev expounds in other discourses on the concept that Paramatma [God] is both manifest [with form] and unmanifest [without form] and can be realized either way.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Guru Dev - What do we say is a jagadguru?
...in the world of the atheist there isn't any guru. TurquoiseB: Not true. Buddhists are essentially atheists in that they have no need to postulate a sentient God of any kind... You are incorrect. Obviously you have not spent any time with practicing Buddhists, Turq. Traditional Tibetan Buddhists accept the notion that the universe contains many more beings in it than are normally visible to us humans. Buddhists the world over have no objection to the existence of the Hindu Gods. You should have pointed out that Buddhists can't take refuge in the Gods because the gods are not Buddhas. That is, the Gods are not enlightened - there are no Buddhas in heaven. Buddhists believe that all the Hindu gods, for all their power, are not the final truth of things. Power does not necessarily entail insight, and for Buddhists the gods do not have the liberating insight that will produce enlightenment. But, none of this entails that the gods do not exist or that the Gods cannot excert a powerful influence over our lives. There are millions of Buddhists in Southesat Asia that pay their respects to the Gods every single day in ritual performances and prayers. In Tibet, lamas invoke other-world beings every day. Thus, the Buddhist has no problem with the Gods like you seem to have. It would be a good thing for you to visit a Buddhist country some day and observe Buddhism in practice. Sometimes philosophy books describing Buddhist beliefs don't really reflect actual Buddhist practices on the ground. 'Atheism' is an extreme view, not supported by Buddha. 'Blind faith' is another extreme. The Buddha taught the Middle Way: the avoidance of extremes. However, do not attempt to extremely avoid extremes. Read more: Buddhism in Practice ed. Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Princeton Readings in Religion, 1995
