[FairfieldLife] RE: The Argument from Evil
If John Bunyan and Spinoza were born in india, they would have been considered as saints. I remember reading Bunyan's book pilgrim's progress in a comic book form (pictographical) way back in the 1980's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim's_Progress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim%27s_Progress > --- anartaxius wrote: > > You can see the effects of holding the belief that god is impersonal, Spinoza was kicked out of his synagogue as a result of his writings. Bertrand Russell did not agree with Spinoza, but called him 'the most lovable of all philosophers'. Here is the cheerful record of his censure: "The Lords of the ma'amad, having long known of the evil opinions and acts of Baruch de Espinoza, have endeavord by various means and promises, to turn him from his evil ways. But having failed to make him mend his wicked ways, and, on the contrary, daily receiving more and more serious information about the abominable heresies which he practiced and taught and about his monstrous deeds, and having for this numerous trustworthy witnesses who have deposed and born witness to this effect in the presence of the said Espinoza, they became convinced of the truth of the matter; and after all of this has been investigated in the presence of the honorable chachamin, they have decided, with their consent, that the said Espinoza should be excommunicated and expelled from the people of Israel. By the decree of the angels, and by the command of the holy men, we excommunicate, expel, curse and damn Baruch de Espinoza, with the consent of God, Blessed be He, and with the consent of all the Holy Congregation, in front of these holy Scrolls with the six-hundred-and-thirteen precepts which are written therein, with the excommunication with which Joshua banned Jericho, with the curse with which Elisha cursed the boys, and with all the curses which are written in the Book of the Law. Cursed be he by day and cursed be he by night; cursed be he when he lies down, and cursed be he when he rises up; cursed be he when he goes out, and cursed be he when he comes in. The Lord will not spare him; the anger and wrath of the Lord will rage against this man, and bring upon him all the curses which are written in this book, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven, and the Lord will separate him to his injury from all the tribes of Israel with all the curses of the covenant, which are written in the Book of the Law. But you who cleave unto the Lord God are all alive this day. We order that no one should communicate with him orally or in writing, or show him any favor, or stay with him under the same roof, or within four ells of him, or read anything composed or written by him." > > ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > There is difference between Theology and Theism. Theology is study of religions. Theism is study on the existence of God. In Cudworth's definition, they are "strictly and properly called Theists, who affirm, that a perfectly conscious understanding being, or mind, existing of itself from eternity, was the cause of all other things" Deism, on the other hand, encompasses both the approaches that you mentioned, the top-down and bottom-up approach. Perhaps, both the approaches are partly involved. This "intelligence" which John mentions is an automated, mechanical, impersonal intelligence. There are basicaly two types of Gods. The personal god, of Abraham, and the impersonal God, Spinoza type God. The impersonalistic theists may not have too much problems with it. This sure is a problem for the personalistic theists. > > > --- anartaxius wrote: > > > > > > This argument originated with Epicurus (341–271 BCE), and the exposition > > > below is a more modern form of it. > > > > > > (P1) If God exists, then only God, necessary things, and things > > > necessarily coexisting with God exist prior to an initial creation event. (P2) There are no necessary things, or things necessarily coexisting with God, that are evil. (P3) If God exists, then the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event. (from P1 & P2) (P4) If the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event, then nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better. (P5) If nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better, then there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better. (P6) If there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better, then God will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Argument from Evil
> > On 2/26/2014 8:00 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote: There is difference between Theology and Theism. > > --- WillyTex wrote: > According to what I've read, Hinduism is sometimes considered to be be > polytheistic. That's because the Smartas, the leading sect in India, follow > the Advaita Vedanta in which there is a basic unity in all personal forms of > God. Absolute monists see the personal forms as different aspects of the one > Supreme Being - Nirguna Brahman; and all personal forms of God are equal in > the Saguna Brahman. In fact, Smartism is impersonalistic theism. Go figure. "The term "henotheism" was first coined to describe the theology of Rigvedic religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_religion. The Rigveda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda was the basis for Max Müller's description of henotheism in the sense of a polytheistic tradition striving towards a formulation of The One (ekam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekam) Divinity aimed at by the worship of different cosmic principles. From this mix of monism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism, monotheism and naturalist polytheism Max Müller decided to name the early Vedic religion henotheistic. A prime example of the monistic aspects of the late Rigveda is the Nasadiya sukta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasadiya_sukta, a hymn describing creation: "That One breathed by itself without breath, other than it there has been nothing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism#Hinduism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism#Hinduism
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Argument from Evil
On 2/26/2014 8:00 AM, jedi_sp...@yahoo.com wrote: There is difference between Theology and Theism. > According to what I've read, Hinduism is sometimes considered to be be polytheistic. That's because the Smartas, the leading sect in India, follow the Advaita Vedanta in which there is a basic unity in all personal forms of God. Absolute monists see the personal forms as different aspects of the one Supreme Being - Nirguna Brahman; and all personal forms of God are equal in the Saguna Brahman. In fact, Smartism is impersonalistic theism. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Argument from Evil
You can see the effects of holding the belief that god is impersonal, Spinoza was kicked out of his synagogue as a result of his writings. Bertrand Russell did not agree with Spinoza, but called him 'the most lovable of all philosophers'. Here is the cheerful record of his censure: The Lords of the ma'amad, having long known of the evil opinions and acts of Baruch de Espinoza, have endeavord by various means and promises, to turn him from his evil ways. But having failed to make him mend his wicked ways, and, on the contrary, daily receiving more and more serious information about the abominable heresies which he practiced and taught and about his monstrous deeds, and having for this numerous trustworthy witnesses who have deposed and born witness to this effect in the presence of the said Espinoza, they became convinced of the truth of the matter; and after all of this has been investigated in the presence of the honorable chachamin, they have decided, with their consent, that the said Espinoza should be excommunicated and expelled from the people of Israel. By the decree of the angels, and by the command of the holy men, we excommunicate, expel, curse and damn Baruch de Espinoza, with the consent of God, Blessed be He, and with the consent of all the Holy Congregation, in front of these holy Scrolls with the six-hundred-and-thirteen precepts which are written therein, with the excommunication with which Joshua banned Jericho, with the curse with which Elisha cursed the boys, and with all the curses which are written in the Book of the Law. Cursed be he by day and cursed be he by night; cursed be he when he lies down, and cursed be he when he rises up; cursed be he when he goes out, and cursed be he when he comes in. The Lord will not spare him; the anger and wrath of the Lord will rage against this man, and bring upon him all the curses which are written in this book, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven, and the Lord will separate him to his injury from all the tribes of Israel with all the curses of the covenant, which are written in the Book of the Law. But you who cleave unto the Lord God are all alive this day. We order that no one should communicate with him orally or in writing, or show him any favor, or stay with him under the same roof, or within four ells of him, or read anything composed or written by him. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: There is difference between Theology and Theism. Theology is study of religions. Theism is study on the existence of God. In Cudworth's definition, they are "strictly and properly called Theists, who affirm, that a perfectly conscious understanding being, or mind, existing of itself from eternity, was the cause of all other things" Deism, on the other hand, encompasses both the approaches that you mentioned, the top-down and bottom-up approach. Perhaps, both the approaches are partly involved. This "intelligence" which John mentions is an automated, mechanical, impersonal intelligence. There are basicaly two types of Gods. The personal god, of Abraham, and the impersonal God, Spinoza type God. The impersonalistic theists may not have too much problems with it. This sure is a problem for the personalistic theists. > --- anartaxius wrote: > > This argument originated with Epicurus (341–271 BCE), and the exposition > below is a more modern form of it. > > (P1) If God exists, then only God, necessary things, and things necessarily > coexisting with God exist prior to an initial creation event. (P2) There are no necessary things, or things necessarily coexisting with God, that are evil. (P3) If God exists, then the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event. (from P1 & P2) (P4) If the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event, then nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better. (P5) If nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better, then there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better. (P6) If there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better, then God will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (P7) If God exists, then he will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (from P3-P6) (P8) If (a) God exists, (b) the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event, and (c) God will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil, then God will never create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (P9) If God exists, then he will never create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (from P3, P7, & P8) (P10) If God exists, then there is no evil in the world. (fr
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Argument from Evil
There is difference between Theology and Theism. Theology is study of religions. Theism is study on the existence of God. In Cudworth's definition, they are "strictly and properly called Theists, who affirm, that a perfectly conscious understanding being, or mind, existing of itself from eternity, was the cause of all other things" Deism, on the other hand, encompasses both the approaches that you mentioned, the top-down and bottom-up approach. Perhaps, both the approaches are partly involved. This "intelligence" which John mentions is an automated, mechanical, impersonal intelligence. There are basicaly two types of Gods. The personal god, of Abraham, and the impersonal God, Spinoza type God. The impersonalistic theists may not have too much problems with it. This sure is a problem for the personalistic theists. > --- anartaxius wrote: > > This argument originated with Epicurus (341–271 BCE), and the exposition > below is a more modern form of it. > > (P1) If God exists, then only God, necessary things, and things necessarily > coexisting with God exist prior to an initial creation event. (P2) There are no necessary things, or things necessarily coexisting with God, that are evil. (P3) If God exists, then the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event. (from P1 & P2) (P4) If the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event, then nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better. (P5) If nothing that comes about from an initial creation event can make the world better, then there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better. (P6) If there is no initially created evil or initially created thing that could produce evil that can make the world better, then God will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (P7) If God exists, then he will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (from P3-P6) (P8) If (a) God exists, (b) the world consists of the highest level of goodness prior to an initial creation event, and (c) God will not initially create any evil or anything that could produce evil, then God will never create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (P9) If God exists, then he will never create any evil or anything that could produce evil. (from P3, P7, & P8) (P10) If God exists, then there is no evil in the world. (from P1, P2, & P9) (P11) There is evil in the world. (C) Therefore, God does not exist. (from P10 & P11)
