Re: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
Whoops, Judy - I missed this the first time round. Good one. You are just so smart. Ha. From: Emily Reyn To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?) Judy, this is an interesting perspective; I had never thought of this before. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 3:36 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" wrote: > I read that intelligent people are more likely to join > cults. No-one knows why, my guess is that if you think > more about something you can build more elaborate memes > which will reinforce themselves so maybe the placebo or > weakness is psychologically derived rather than genetic. I would guess that intelligent people are more likely to undertake any approach to self-improvement, cult-based or not, because they have a greater sense of possibilities, of their own potential and how much of it remains to be fulfilled. That same sense of possibilities may make them less resistant to cultish practices at the outset because they're curious to see where it's all going, so they stick around until they've become so enmeshed that it's difficult for them to make a decision to leave.
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
Interesting theory, well stated by Judy - but not surprising, I had to be fucking kicked out and I'm so happy for it. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Emily Reyn wrote: > ** > > > Judy, this is an interesting perspective; I had never thought of this > before. > > -- > *From:* authfriend > *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, November 9, 2012 3:36 PM > *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and > share with others?) > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" > wrote: > > > I read that intelligent people are more likely to join > > cults. No-one knows why, my guess is that if you think > > more about something you can build more elaborate memes > > which will reinforce themselves so maybe the placebo or > > weakness is psychologically derived rather than genetic. > > I would guess that intelligent people are more likely > to undertake any approach to self-improvement, cult-based > or not, because they have a greater sense of possibilities, > of their own potential and how much of it remains to be > fulfilled. > > That same sense of possibilities may make them less > resistant to cultish practices at the outset because > they're curious to see where it's all going, so they > stick around until they've become so enmeshed that it's > difficult for them to make a decision to leave. > > > > >
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
Judy, this is an interesting perspective; I had never thought of this before. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 3:36 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" wrote: > I read that intelligent people are more likely to join > cults. No-one knows why, my guess is that if you think > more about something you can build more elaborate memes > which will reinforce themselves so maybe the placebo or > weakness is psychologically derived rather than genetic. I would guess that intelligent people are more likely to undertake any approach to self-improvement, cult-based or not, because they have a greater sense of possibilities, of their own potential and how much of it remains to be fulfilled. That same sense of possibilities may make them less resistant to cultish practices at the outset because they're curious to see where it's all going, so they stick around until they've become so enmeshed that it's difficult for them to make a decision to leave.
[FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" wrote: > I read that intelligent people are more likely to join > cults. No-one knows why, my guess is that if you think > more about something you can build more elaborate memes > which will reinforce themselves so maybe the placebo or > weakness is psychologically derived rather than genetic. I would guess that intelligent people are more likely to undertake any approach to self-improvement, cult-based or not, because they have a greater sense of possibilities, of their own potential and how much of it remains to be fulfilled. That same sense of possibilities may make them less resistant to cultish practices at the outset because they're curious to see where it's all going, so they stick around until they've become so enmeshed that it's difficult for them to make a decision to leave.
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
I would think that any species, to survive and flourish, needs both kinds of genes and both kinds of individuals. What I mean by both is both the gene or individual to explore and be independent, to be an outlier; and the gene to belong to a group, to follow, to stay bonded. From: salyavin808 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 4:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > > > I, for one, would like to thank Michael David Blitz (whoever > > > he is) for so effectively demonstrating the truth of my > > > theory that "the ME is only placebo effect" as expressed in: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/325166 > > > > > > Well, *isn't* he essentially dispensing a placebo? If any > > > actual "study" really was done to "prove" that buttbouncing > > > in the dome during this coming week had any effect, anyone > > > who had read this "challenge" would be by definition > > > disqualified from being able to accurately assess any > > > changes as reflected in the media. They've been given > > > an expectation of what to look for, and so naturally that > > > is what they'll find. > > > > I hope that when I mention "placebo effect" people > > understand that this is not a negative term, or a > > negative phenomenon. It's established fact that for > > some people, the suggestion that they will bet better > > as the result of something prescribed for them or > > given to them by someone in a white coat -- even > > if that something is an inert sugar pill or a tech- > > nique that does nothing at all -- is *enough*. They > > WILL get better. That's amazing. > > > > What is less understood is how this works, and what > > makes it work more for some people than for others. > > Thus I pass along this article, a pointer to what > > I think is some fascinating research. Some people > > are more open to the placebo effect than others, > > and that depends on whether they carry a certain > > variant of the COMT gene. If they carry the high- > > dopamine-generating variant of this gene, they > > are six times more likely to respond to a placebo > > than people who carry the low-dopamine-generating > > COMT gene. > > > > http://www.livescience.com/24222-placebo-effect-genes.html > > > > Go figure. What this makes me wonder about is the > > larger subject of spiritual experience *itself* as > > largely the result of the placebo effect. What if > > the thing that put all of us on a "spiritual path" > > in the first place was nothing more than toting > > around a variant gene? > > To rudely follow up on my own post because I'm still > tripping on this idea, I realize that what I'm wondering > about is whether there is a True Believer gene. > > What is the difference, after all, between someone > responding favorably to a sugar pill or technique > given to them by someone they trust in a medical context, > and another given to them in a spiritual context, by > someone they trust equally? > > So I'm thinkin' what a fascinating study it would be > to take a group of people who believe strongly in some > spiritual path (like TM, of course, but it could be > any other path as well), and do DNA tests on them to > see how many of them carry this variant high-dopamine- > generating COMT gene. > > Wouldn't the results of such a study be fascinating? Another excellent path of research that is unlikely to be taken up by the people with the right equipment.There must be an enlightenment gene I would have thought, and so there ought to be a follower gene. I think there must also be a way to predict what type of group people will be most likely to join. I know many meditators some into TM and others into all sorts but they TMO just didn't *appeal* to some and in one case someone I know got into an argument at the intro and walked out. I never "got" Christianity and I never fancied Iskcon but almost got mixed up with scientology and obviously got swept up with TM. I think for me it was the mention of science and a plausible set of charts that appealed to my nerdiness both with TM and scientology. But then as an old acid head the charts just confirmed that there w
[FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
I think all the "precursors" of (asaMprajñaata?) samaadhi mentioned in YS I 20 shraddhaa-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka itareSaam ...might be associated with a "coctail" of hormones and neurotransmitters. For instance, shraddhaa (faith) might be associated primarily with dopamine, viirya (power, from brahmacarya) with testosterone, smRti (memory) with...hmmm... acetylcholine? By far the easiest way to samaadhi, bhakti (in YS, iishavara-praNidhaana), might be associated primarily with oxytocin... Serotonin might be one of the most important neurotransmitters in all of those "precursors"! ROFLOL! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > > > I, for one, would like to thank Michael David Blitz (whoever > > > he is) for so effectively demonstrating the truth of my > > > theory that "the ME is only placebo effect" as expressed in: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/325166 > > > > > > Well, *isn't* he essentially dispensing a placebo? If any > > > actual "study" really was done to "prove" that buttbouncing > > > in the dome during this coming week had any effect, anyone > > > who had read this "challenge" would be by definition > > > disqualified from being able to accurately assess any > > > changes as reflected in the media. They've been given > > > an expectation of what to look for, and so naturally that > > > is what they'll find. > > > > I hope that when I mention "placebo effect" people > > understand that this is not a negative term, or a > > negative phenomenon. It's established fact that for > > some people, the suggestion that they will bet better > > as the result of something prescribed for them or > > given to them by someone in a white coat -- even > > if that something is an inert sugar pill or a tech- > > nique that does nothing at all -- is *enough*. They > > WILL get better. That's amazing. > > > > What is less understood is how this works, and what > > makes it work more for some people than for others. > > Thus I pass along this article, a pointer to what > > I think is some fascinating research. Some people > > are more open to the placebo effect than others, > > and that depends on whether they carry a certain > > variant of the COMT gene. If they carry the high- > > dopamine-generating variant of this gene, they > > are six times more likely to respond to a placebo > > than people who carry the low-dopamine-generating > > COMT gene. > > > > http://www.livescience.com/24222-placebo-effect-genes.html > > > > Go figure. What this makes me wonder about is the > > larger subject of spiritual experience *itself* as > > largely the result of the placebo effect. What if > > the thing that put all of us on a "spiritual path" > > in the first place was nothing more than toting > > around a variant gene? > > To rudely follow up on my own post because I'm still > tripping on this idea, I realize that what I'm wondering > about is whether there is a True Believer gene. > > What is the difference, after all, between someone > responding favorably to a sugar pill or technique > given to them by someone they trust in a medical context, > and another given to them in a spiritual context, by > someone they trust equally? > > So I'm thinkin' what a fascinating study it would be > to take a group of people who believe strongly in some > spiritual path (like TM, of course, but it could be > any other path as well), and do DNA tests on them to > see how many of them carry this variant high-dopamine- > generating COMT gene. > > Wouldn't the results of such a study be fascinating? >
[FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > > > I, for one, would like to thank Michael David Blitz (whoever > > > he is) for so effectively demonstrating the truth of my > > > theory that "the ME is only placebo effect" as expressed in: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/325166 > > > > > > Well, *isn't* he essentially dispensing a placebo? If any > > > actual "study" really was done to "prove" that buttbouncing > > > in the dome during this coming week had any effect, anyone > > > who had read this "challenge" would be by definition > > > disqualified from being able to accurately assess any > > > changes as reflected in the media. They've been given > > > an expectation of what to look for, and so naturally that > > > is what they'll find. > > > > I hope that when I mention "placebo effect" people > > understand that this is not a negative term, or a > > negative phenomenon. It's established fact that for > > some people, the suggestion that they will bet better > > as the result of something prescribed for them or > > given to them by someone in a white coat -- even > > if that something is an inert sugar pill or a tech- > > nique that does nothing at all -- is *enough*. They > > WILL get better. That's amazing. > > > > What is less understood is how this works, and what > > makes it work more for some people than for others. > > Thus I pass along this article, a pointer to what > > I think is some fascinating research. Some people > > are more open to the placebo effect than others, > > and that depends on whether they carry a certain > > variant of the COMT gene. If they carry the high- > > dopamine-generating variant of this gene, they > > are six times more likely to respond to a placebo > > than people who carry the low-dopamine-generating > > COMT gene. > > > > http://www.livescience.com/24222-placebo-effect-genes.html > > > > Go figure. What this makes me wonder about is the > > larger subject of spiritual experience *itself* as > > largely the result of the placebo effect. What if > > the thing that put all of us on a "spiritual path" > > in the first place was nothing more than toting > > around a variant gene? > > To rudely follow up on my own post because I'm still > tripping on this idea, I realize that what I'm wondering > about is whether there is a True Believer gene. > > What is the difference, after all, between someone > responding favorably to a sugar pill or technique > given to them by someone they trust in a medical context, > and another given to them in a spiritual context, by > someone they trust equally? > > So I'm thinkin' what a fascinating study it would be > to take a group of people who believe strongly in some > spiritual path (like TM, of course, but it could be > any other path as well), and do DNA tests on them to > see how many of them carry this variant high-dopamine- > generating COMT gene. > > Wouldn't the results of such a study be fascinating? Another excellent path of research that is unlikely to be taken up by the people with the right equipment.There must be an enlightenment gene I would have thought, and so there ought to be a follower gene. I think there must also be a way to predict what type of group people will be most likely to join. I know many meditators some into TM and others into all sorts but they TMO just didn't *appeal* to some and in one case someone I know got into an argument at the intro and walked out. I never "got" Christianity and I never fancied Iskcon but almost got mixed up with scientology and obviously got swept up with TM. I think for me it was the mention of science and a plausible set of charts that appealed to my nerdiness both with TM and scientology. But then as an old acid head the charts just confirmed that there was a way of getting expanded consciousness by non-druggy means. Maybe that explains my involvement. I'd like to see research into whether ex-drug users have better God consciousness experiences than the more straight TMers. I read that intelligent people are more likely to join cults. No-one knows why, my guess is that if you think more about something you can build more elaborate memes which will reinforce themselves so maybe the placebo or weakness is psychologically derived rather than genetic. Plenty of research options to put to MUM!
[FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > > > I, for one, would like to thank Michael David Blitz (whoever > > he is) for so effectively demonstrating the truth of my > > theory that "the ME is only placebo effect" as expressed in: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/325166 > > > > Well, *isn't* he essentially dispensing a placebo? If any > > actual "study" really was done to "prove" that buttbouncing > > in the dome during this coming week had any effect, anyone > > who had read this "challenge" would be by definition > > disqualified from being able to accurately assess any > > changes as reflected in the media. They've been given > > an expectation of what to look for, and so naturally that > > is what they'll find. > > I hope that when I mention "placebo effect" people > understand that this is not a negative term, or a > negative phenomenon. It's established fact that for > some people, the suggestion that they will bet better > as the result of something prescribed for them or > given to them by someone in a white coat -- even > if that something is an inert sugar pill or a tech- > nique that does nothing at all -- is *enough*. They > WILL get better. That's amazing. > > What is less understood is how this works, and what > makes it work more for some people than for others. > Thus I pass along this article, a pointer to what > I think is some fascinating research. Some people > are more open to the placebo effect than others, > and that depends on whether they carry a certain > variant of the COMT gene. If they carry the high- > dopamine-generating variant of this gene, they > are six times more likely to respond to a placebo > than people who carry the low-dopamine-generating > COMT gene. > > http://www.livescience.com/24222-placebo-effect-genes.html > > Go figure. What this makes me wonder about is the > larger subject of spiritual experience *itself* as > largely the result of the placebo effect. What if > the thing that put all of us on a "spiritual path" > in the first place was nothing more than toting > around a variant gene? To rudely follow up on my own post because I'm still tripping on this idea, I realize that what I'm wondering about is whether there is a True Believer gene. What is the difference, after all, between someone responding favorably to a sugar pill or technique given to them by someone they trust in a medical context, and another given to them in a spiritual context, by someone they trust equally? So I'm thinkin' what a fascinating study it would be to take a group of people who believe strongly in some spiritual path (like TM, of course, but it could be any other path as well), and do DNA tests on them to see how many of them carry this variant high-dopamine- generating COMT gene. Wouldn't the results of such a study be fascinating?
[FairfieldLife] The Placebo Effect (was Re: Fwd: Print and share with others?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > > I, for one, would like to thank Michael David Blitz (whoever > he is) for so effectively demonstrating the truth of my > theory that "the ME is only placebo effect" as expressed in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/325166 > > Well, *isn't* he essentially dispensing a placebo? If any > actual "study" really was done to "prove" that buttbouncing > in the dome during this coming week had any effect, anyone > who had read this "challenge" would be by definition > disqualified from being able to accurately assess any > changes as reflected in the media. They've been given > an expectation of what to look for, and so naturally that > is what they'll find. I hope that when I mention "placebo effect" people understand that this is not a negative term, or a negative phenomenon. It's established fact that for some people, the suggestion that they will bet better as the result of something prescribed for them or given to them by someone in a white coat -- even if that something is an inert sugar pill or a tech- nique that does nothing at all -- is *enough*. They WILL get better. That's amazing. What is less understood is how this works, and what makes it work more for some people than for others. Thus I pass along this article, a pointer to what I think is some fascinating research. Some people are more open to the placebo effect than others, and that depends on whether they carry a certain variant of the COMT gene. If they carry the high- dopamine-generating variant of this gene, they are six times more likely to respond to a placebo than people who carry the low-dopamine-generating COMT gene. http://www.livescience.com/24222-placebo-effect-genes.html Go figure. What this makes me wonder about is the larger subject of spiritual experience *itself* as largely the result of the placebo effect. What if the thing that put all of us on a "spiritual path" in the first place was nothing more than toting around a variant gene?
