Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:43 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: Well, I don't have my 'serotonin meter' hooked up right now, so I can't answer your question accurately - I can tell you that I awoke from the long rest after having performed the 'Night Tech'. And after the first round this morning I think I'm a changed man. Many cares, much lack of confidence had been washed away. I am, despite all the stuff flying off my desk, feeling more and more inwardly peaceful and my body posture is more stable and solid than yesterday. It's not a bad feeling at all, until I start reading the newspaper or watching TV - then, in just a minute or two, I'm back to my old self and have to start all over again. Maybe I should take a long sabbatical, then in a year or two, return here when I can dialog like a pundit, or at least a gentleman; at present, I am neither, so maybe I should just keep my pie hole shut and stop ragging on the two Barry's and Curtis. But some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to. Thank you for sharing this. First time that you have seemed like a real person to me. :) That's what I thought! What a nice post Willy, thanks!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, dhamiltony2k5 wrote: Om, that is succinct. Lack of Transparency, Money, power and sex mixed together. A turning point for me--and a good touchstone for any meditative org-- was to see up close how people who practice a certain teaching fully actually are. In the 80's I popped in with an old friend at Purusha headquarters in the Catskills. I've never seen such a sadly looking bunch of people in my life. They looked like endogenous heroin addicts. A friend accompanying us who was extremely psychic refused to get out of the car, their subtle appearance was so disturbing to her. This despite their being outside a lot, with tans, lots of exercise and skinny-dipping in the lake, etc. And then I compare these people to other Hindu-based groups I've visited. I compare them to visits to renunciate/hard-care practitioners in other scenes. It's an experience I'm not likely to forget any time soon. If real transparency brought forth these people, I can't see how that would fair well with the general public. I couldn't imagine any of these people, say on Bill Moyers, discussing world peace. that pretty much is the story on them out in the marketplace. Is going to be hard for them to shake or dodge their past given the nature of the internet without their going forward upright. That would be about transparency. Honest transparency. Well I don't see that happening with their foremost representatives, Purusha (can't speak to mother diviners) who should be the ones out front and in the spotlight. I think of other groups: Thomas Merton, Wayne Teasdale, Father Thomas Keating, Pema Chodron or other renunciates who were or are exemplars. Where are the out front examples from Purusha and Mother Divine shining forth as models to emulate? Show us your best examples of people who've used your technology. Let's see them, out in public, showing off your goods. Aye, there's the rub. Coming to 2009, a stunning change for them could be their putting up on the university webpage the coming in and going out of every nickle through the university. Financial statements. Audited. Include the pundit program to. Honest transparency. They could do that without even having to acknowledge or plead on any of the sex, bad science, or money stuff of their past. Well they could do a purge of the bad science quietly and begin replacing it with more reasonable fare. But I suspect at this late date it is too late. It's part of the overall mythos and canon. Esp. given the above-mentioned examples. If your foremost exemplars of your methods cannot be even displayed in public, let alone at the forefront of consciousness-raising discourse, this represents a fundamental flaw somewhere.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Vaj wrote: In the 80's I popped in with an old friend at Purusha headquarters in the Catskills. You just 'popped in' to the Purusha headquarters in the Catskills with an old friend? How did you do that - I can't even get into the Radiance Dome without a printed pass, but they let you into the holy-of-holies so you could snoop around? This doesn't even make any sense. We just drove up and asked for the person we were looking for. Perhaps it was probably my innocence that was so charming and irresistible. :-) Do you think we should have had a pass to see these people? Why would they want to hide themselves behind security Willy, that doesn't even make sense? The most interesting part was going into individual Purusha rooms and seeing the gods and goddesses they were worshipping on their altars. I'm sorry, I meant to say Impulses of Creative Intelligence. ;-) What's more, I had, up to that time, been receiving detailed letters of the goings-on with the Maharishi, who he was meeting with, what they talked about, the latest greatest thing, for years before, directly from Purusha. Perhaps when I'm done posting the Robin Woodsworth Carlsen excerpts we can go over those letters, which should scan in easy since they were all typed. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
Vaj, its a little one-sided to classify everybody on Purusha as edogenous heroin addicts (interesting term, by the way) I spent a year on Purusha when it first started and just like the TMO in general and like anyother spiritual group you have people who are really clear and radiate sattva and then you have the wasted looking one's who seem to be troubled. I'm sure if you saw everybody on Purusha you'd have seen the healthy looking ones too. I'm sure there are some pretty wasted looking buddhist out there too (lack of devotion drys you up) as well as ones that look like buddha jr-pure equnimity. --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 7:50 AM On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, dhamiltony2k5 wrote: Om, that is succinct. Lack of Transparency, Money, power and sex mixed together. A turning point for me--and a good touchstone for any meditative org--was to see up close how people who practice a certain teaching fully actually are. In the 80's I popped in with an old friend at Purusha headquarters in the Catskills. I've never seen such a sadly looking bunch of people in my life. They looked like endogenous heroin addicts. A friend accompanying us who was extremely psychic refused to get out of the car, their subtle appearance was so disturbing to her. This despite their being outside a lot, with tans, lots of exercise and skinny-dipping in the lake, etc. And then I compare these people to other Hindu-based groups I've visited. I compare them to visits to renunciate/hard-care practitioners in other scenes. It's an experience I'm not likely to forget any time soon. If real transparency brought forth these people, I can't see how that would fair well with the general public. I couldn't imagine any of these people, say on Bill Moyers, discussing world peace. that pretty much is the story on them out in the marketplace. Is going to be hard for them to shake or dodge their past given the nature of the internet without their going forward upright. That would be about transparency. Honest transparency. Well I don't see that happening with their foremost representatives, Purusha (can't speak to mother diviners) who should be the ones out front and in the spotlight. I think of other groups: Thomas Merton, Wayne Teasdale, Father Thomas Keating, Pema Chodron or other renunciates who were or are exemplars. Where are the out front examples from Purusha and Mother Divine shining forth as models to emulate? Show us your best examples of people who've used your technology. Let's see them, out in public, showing off your goods. Aye, there's the rub. Coming to 2009, a stunning change for them could be their putting up on the university webpage the coming in and going out of every nickle through the university. Financial statements. Audited. Include the pundit program to. Honest transparency. They could do that without even having to acknowledge or plead on any of the sex, bad science, or money stuff of their past. Well they could do a purge of the bad science quietly and begin replacing it with more reasonable fare. But I suspect at this late date it is too late. It's part of the overall mythos and canon. Esp. given the above-mentioned examples. If your foremost exemplars of your methods cannot be even displayed in public, let alone at the forefront of consciousness-raising discourse, this represents a fundamental flaw somewhere.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Peter wrote: Vaj, its a little one-sided to classify everybody on Purusha as edogenous heroin addicts (interesting term, by the way) I spent a year on Purusha when it first started and just like the TMO in general and like anyother spiritual group you have people who are really clear and radiate sattva and then you have the wasted looking one's who seem to be troubled. I'm sure if you saw everybody on Purusha you'd have seen the healthy looking ones too. I'm sure there are some pretty wasted looking buddhist out there too (lack of devotion drys you up) as well as ones that look like buddha jr-pure equnimity. I wasn't referring to ALL Purusha Pete, just the ones I met in South Fallsburg. Perhaps we should draw a line between part-time Purusha/ Mother Diviners and full-timers? Dunno. I had the impression these were hard core folks and not just temporary folks like your experience. Perhaps Ruth could chime in on some impressions of her MD friends? But that still does leave the question as to why the world leaders of this meditation technique aren't at the forefront like other leaders of other spiritual trips. Why is that? It would be fascinating to see leading Purusha people and Mother Divine people interacting with other spiritual leaders and the media. But I cannot recall ever seeing this. Never. Regarding Buddhist and other Hindu monastics, I have not seen the same thing and I'm not sure why. Personally I would find it utterly fascinating to have an independent group of scientists come and research Purusha and Mother Divine and then publish their findings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:32 PM, sparaig wrote: Do you and Lawson know anything about this new funding for a research center? Or are you making assumptions based on what Vaj said? Dawn, on what do you base your assertion that 20 years of meditating experience is more or less required to draw conclusions on TM's effects? How many years have you been meditating? Lawson, I do not believe that there is TM research on their concept of unstressing. Are you aware of any? Nope. But there's myriad articles on relaxation-induced anxiety, whigh fits the TM theory to a t... Well, not quite. Relaxation-induced anxiety (and it's resolution) isn't meant to be a path to enlightenment. In fact, if you listen to the recently circulated MMY tapes, you find out that unstressing at the level of the nervous system meant something altogether different in MMY's eyes...actually something more traditional...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:40 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: a master of anything, be it painting pictures, customizing cars or doing TM takes at least 20 years. the thing that is so unprofessional to see by those with waking state funny names is that they haven't practiced TM for anything like 20 years. i have. this reduces their remarks to nothing more than uninformed opinion and bias. It takes about 5 years MAX to master any individual meditation technique. MAX. If you're taking twenty f*cking years something's WAY wrong. It could be your particular approach is just way inefficient or you've fallen into some form of self-deception. Samadhi--which has yet to be observed scientifically in any TMer--is quite rare in humans in general, takes only a year in perfect conditions. It sounds like a time to self-examine and reflect Dawn. Why the huge discrepancy in your own practice? Could it be an errant practice and a straying into false views?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:21 PM, sparaig wrote: It's a matter of degree... ANY kind of relaxation can induce RIA. Tyically, normal relaxation only induces RIA (unstressing) in people with pathology. However, TM evokes a deeper level of relaxation than your average relaxation technique, and the corresponding RIA can be quite unusual. Can you share some concrete evidence of this claim, from independent, non-biased researchers? The claim that TM is better certainly sounds attractive, but is there some independent evidence to 'prove it' that you could share? From what I've seen, TM is only approx. 1% different from people who nap two time a day!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:21 PM, sparaig wrote: It's a matter of degree... ANY kind of relaxation can induce RIA. Tyically, normal relaxation only induces RIA (unstressing) in people with pathology. However, TM evokes a deeper level of relaxation than your average relaxation technique, How do you know? and the corresponding RIA can be quite unusual. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
One thing's very obvious from hearing Orme-Johnson's comments: someone affiliated with the TMO is listening to FFL and probably the TMFree blog...it just shows the power a forum of free speech like FFL, etc. can have. They're forced to respond (with rather lame answers) because the banter here is also hitting the search engines along with their marketing spiel. And so the disinformation campaign that is OJ's website. On separate note, Raunchy asked why anyone would want to continue to expose the dangers of the TM org, so repeatedly. The answer is the danger still exists that people can be deceived, harmed or financially drained by this org which is overly secretive. This same org thrusts itself constantly into the public spotlight worldwide, but gives no transparency for their potentially dangerous org and it's former leader was involved in numerous scandals from money laundering, to political manipulation to sexual improprieties--the list goes on and on--all the while working hard to conceal his tracks and his past. The technique they're selling and the org that administers it has been the cause of suicide, murder, insanity and a long list of ills that could potentially be prevented. If the victims of other cult abuse organizations can say never again in the hope that more people aren't harmed by such institutions of abuse, so can we. On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:11 AM, yifuxero wrote: ---I don't see much truth in this section. His clever choice of words generates an imprecise reply (typical of TMO responses as a whole, apart from outright doctoring of stats): Is anyone getting enlightened? Many people are experiencing the classical milestones of enlightenment, which arise from regular practice of the Transcendental Meditation program. These include witnessing of sleep and activity, equanimity during challenging experiences, and increase creativity. Recent published research on these individuals has scientifically verified the reality of unique physiological characteristics and benefits of enlightenment. Moreover, the entire body of research on the Transcendental Meditation program demonstrates holistic development of the qualities of enlightenment
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 7, 2008, at 12:49 AM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Chapters 9 to 14 give a detailed description of the early years in which Maharishi established himself in England. The author passed through a variety of spiritual movements and spent about 8 to 10 years meditating with Maharishi and also served in some capacity as his administrator. Her period of involvement was from 1960 to about 1968-70. Fascinating and valuable descriptions of how Maharishi got his start in England. The author provides convincing evidence that his Transcendental Meditation (TM) may have produced dissociative reactions and passivity, from the very beginning. -snip- how can the author provide convincing evidence that his Transcendental Meditation (TM) -may- have produced dissociative reactions and passivity...? I believe it was from first hand experience. She was involved in a large number of early day initiations. if the evidence is in fact convincing, it would show without doubt that TM produced these results, not that TM -may- have produced these results. What's she's describing isn't anything new, it's been known for a long time Dawn. The TM org has always ignored such phenomenon and despite wild claims about their research, hasn't done one (that I'm aware of) on these phenomena. Instead they're glossed over as unstressing. If they were really, truly interested in pure research, here would have been a golden opportunity to catalogue the changes taking place to the human nervous and perhaps shed some light on certain neurological diseases. I am doubtful of this one's credentials, only having practiced TM 8- 10 years. that's what- 15% of one's adult life? i have heard that to master -anything- takes 20 years, so they are only halfway there. According to TM Org research, it only takes about 3 months to level off on it effects. TM is a very powerful technique, and it seems entirely reasonable that the author of this hit piece on the Maharishi would have confronted a rough patch or three during the relatively brief time that they practiced TM. Then to stop, concluding that they had milked the capabilities of the technique and the Maharishi dry, and therefore exhausted their capacity to transcend, is a premature judgment, an immature conclusion, which is why it appeals to you vaj. It appeals to me because it puts up a red flag and serves as a warning that it can be a dangerous technique for some people and thus it has the potential to help relieve human suffering. John Knapp is an excellent person to ask on this because he has documented hundreds of cases AND he's been meditating for many years. But really anyone who's been around long enough will recognize what she's describing. Heck there were whole courses where the rounders had psychotic episodes! It might also help to point out that there are other transcending techniques that produce few minor side effects and no major side- effects and actually work better at transcending. These techniques exist in both Hinduism and Buddhism (and I'm sure others as well). it is a cheap shot, an easy out, a cop out. better to kn Please see the above: three months, according to TMO researchers.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 7, 2008, at 2:51 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: [...] I am doubtful of this one's credentials, only having practiced TM 8- 10 years. that's what- 15% of one's adult life? i have heard that to master -anything- takes 20 years, so they are only halfway there. According to TM Org research, it only takes about 3 months to level off on it effects. Never heard that, and certainly never heard the Maharishi say this. this person, and including you, have not practiced TM long enough to have a clue about the full effect of the technique. Vaj misunderstood what he read. The gross physical effect of average alpha EEG coherence DURING TM levels off within a few months (though more subtle measures of EEG and brain imaging might show something different). However, the physiological effect of TM practice outside of meditation continues to evolve indefinitely: the dye becomes quite yellow within a few months of practice, but the fading and re-dyeing metaphor still applies indefinitely according to the latest research. The alpha EEG coherence outside meditation continues to rise as practice continues. Unfortunately, since TM research fails to show any signs of higher states of consciousness, but instead just continues to show relaxation/ alpha coherence benefits--all within the normal range of alpha for even non-meditators (it's actually statistically not that different from people napping 2 x 20) I understood quite well what I'm reading. At least according to neuroscientists. I just don't interpret it in a TB or OCD framework like yourself. In fact TM research has so repeatedly kept flogging the same dead horse, most independent neuroscientists stopped taking in seriously a long time ago.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 7, 2008, at 3:15 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Unfortunately, since TM research fails to show any signs of higher states of consciousness, but instead just continues to show relaxation/ alpha coherence benefits--all within the normal range of alpha for even non-meditators (it's actually statistically not that different from people napping 2 x 20) I understood quite well what I'm reading. At least according to neuroscientists. I just don't interpret it in a TB or OCD framework like yourself. You've yet to cite peer reviewed research published in the last 20 years that claims that the EEG alpha coherence found during TM is within the normal range. ANd, even if it is (due to the ceiling effect), that doesn't mean that the practice doesn't have accumulative benefits over a longer' period. In fact TM research has so repeatedly kept flogging the same dead horse, most independent neuroscientists stopped taking in seriously a long time ago. Except those that still do. As I have pointed out several times, there is a term used in meditation research circles called Pure Consciousness Episode (or Experience), the physiological correlates of which are taken directly from the TC research on TM. Interested people should google PCE + meditation... E.G.: http://www.ic.arizona.edu/ic/psyc358/358-Lect_21.html I'm familiar with the claim, but as has been pointed out numerous times, pure consciousness is simply being redefined, dumbed down if you will, to the researchers whim. A recent major publication found such terms to be misleading since they're merely a phenomenological description. Pure consciousness has been said to be experienced in samadhi, and I guess you could translate that to being a pure consciousness experience which we have seen in real Patanjali yogins and Buddhist yogins as well. It seems to be a somewhat universal phenomenon. However after decades of TM research, we have yet to see anything outside normal alpha coherence levels. This lack of a significant effect was reported as early as the 1980's when many of the TM claims were successfully and definitely refuted by independent scientists and as recently as a few years ago when the first major textbook on the neuroscience of consciousness noted the same lack of effect (and the TMO's tendency to greatly exaggerate). TM researchers maintain the illusion of an increase in alpha coherence in a few novel ways. The most common is through the use of horrendous controls and/or bad study design. This effect was demonstrated years ago using good, solid science: use bad controls, alpha seems to go up-- but then use appropriate controls and alpha coherence (now considered an outdated measurement) actually goes down. So when you hear of alpha coherence rising, you can be pretty sure they're up to their same old tricks again. Putting the con back in con-sciousness once again. The unfortunate thing is, a meditation advertising and marketing cult can seed media outlets and the internet so it appears what they are saying holds some validity. If you repeat a lie enough times, people actually start to believe it. The good news is a new major meditation research center has been funded in Wisconsin. The researchers already have preliminary studies on the neural networks in the major forms of meditation. They fully expect to have definitive answers on all the major types of meditation and mechanisms within a few years.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: New section on TM and Cults posted on Truth About TM
On Dec 6, 2008, at 9:11 PM, dhamiltony2k5 wrote: Om, how would David O-J just answer a cult test about TM and the TM- orgs like: http://www.geocities.com/LeavingNityanandaInstitute/cult_test.htm http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000466.html Chapters 9 to 14 give a detailed description of the early years in which Maharishi established himself in England. The author passed through a variety of spiritual movements and spent about 8 to 10 years meditating with Maharishi and also served in some capacity as his administrator. Her period of involvement was from 1960 to about 1968-70. Fascinating and valuable descriptions of how Maharishi got his start in England. The author provides convincing evidence that his Transcendental Meditation (TM) may have produced dissociative reactions and passivity, from the very beginning. Collin-Smith also offers a fairly convincing case that the guru was an imposter, basically a monastic washout who failed to get a promotion in India, who then sought to re-invent himself as a 'Realized Master' in the West. And then marketing that persona to less discerning and more gullible audiences. It seems significant that Maharishi did not minister to the more knowledgeable émigré Indian community in London, but instead concentrated on Westerners, that probably could not tell a bogus yogi from a real one. Collin-Smith appears to demonstrate that from the outset Maharishi was greedy for money and that he seemingly ruthlessly used and discard followers. The guru also apparently showed no concern when people began breaking down as a result of practicing TM. The author says that though Maharishi might have some special gift, he abused it. And of course, how the guru struck gold when he was able to latch onto the Beatles. Collin-Smith claims to have suffered personal injury as a result of her years of TM practice and reports that many artists she knew also had their careers derailed because of this form of meditation. She also discusses how TM-related passivity and depression may have disabled people's critical faculties. The author writes, The stream of creative energy, once so vigorous and prolific in me, had been dammed, diverted or even destroyed altogether. I therefore had no source of happiness and satisfaction. Judging by the conversations I had with various artists, writers, musicians and a ballet dancer, this experience of the meditation effects was shared with them. 'The ballet used to be my life. Now it's just the way I earn my living.' 'I don't seem to want to paint any more. I'd rather just sit in the sun.' 'I can't get on with writing my book. I don't seem to feel much interest in anything but TM,' were some of the comments I heard. This book, now made easily accessible through the Internet, provides thought-provoking information for anyone interested in the early history of Maharishi and/or the origins of the TM. --- Also, it looks like Mahesh's old secretary Conny Larrson, has new book out on him called Flower Power: The Beatles, Maharishi and I. I wonder if any one could contact him for a excerpt?
