Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Hey folks! So it's that time again! :) We need artwork for the Fedora 7 CD labels and covers!: 1) Spin name: The official spins that will be released are (1) Live CD (2) Fedora (workstation/core basically) (3) Everything. So we'll need labels for each of those if possible - and, it would be cool to also have a set of labels that has a blank white (or light-colored) space so folks building their own custom spins can easily use the labels for whatever they want to call their spin. 2) Arches: we should have labels/covers for x86 and x86_64. 3) Source artwork: we should of course make the svgs available so if they wanted it printed out in the font they could do that also. We should also use an open font (like the new liberation fonts) for the spin label. We can start with the designs available at the bottom of http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ for a start, but these have too many colors and will be too expensive to print, so if we choose to go with them they'll need modification. I'm going to try to come up with a basic SVG template and send it out tonight, but if you have any ideas / concepts / artwork / mockups please send them! It would be awesome (i know short notice sorry!!) if we could have a good idea of the design by Sunday. In case it's helpful, this is a screenshot of the firefox startpage design i threw together: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/web/homepage/screenshot.png The artwork in the upper left is: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/web/homepage/clouds.png And the SVG for it is on my system at home so I will send that out tonight if anybody thinks it might be helpful. Thanks! ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Hi Máirín, we need the Baloon theme picture (http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/09Alock-dialog-system.png) in a 300 dpi eps or svg format (for Linuxtag Germany) Would you please so kind and help us? Thanks in advance ... Regards Gerold Am Donnerstag, den 24.05.2007, 10:56 -0400 schrieb Máirín Duffy: > Hey folks! > > So it's that time again! :) > > We need artwork for the Fedora 7 CD labels and covers!: > > 1) Spin name: The official spins that will be released are (1) Live CD > (2) Fedora (workstation/core basically) (3) Everything. So we'll need > labels for each of those if possible - and, it would be cool to also > have a set of labels that has a blank white (or light-colored) space so > folks building their own custom spins can easily use the labels for > whatever they want to call their spin. > > 2) Arches: we should have labels/covers for x86 and x86_64. > > 3) Source artwork: we should of course make the svgs available so if > they wanted it printed out in the font they could do that also. We > should also use an open font (like the new liberation fonts) for the > spin label. > > We can start with the designs available at the bottom of > http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ for a start, but these have > too many colors and will be too expensive to print, so if we choose to > go with them they'll need modification. > > I'm going to try to come up with a basic SVG template and send it out > tonight, but if you have any ideas / concepts / artwork / mockups please > send them! > > It would be awesome (i know short notice sorry!!) if we could have a > good idea of the design by Sunday. > > In case it's helpful, this is a screenshot of the firefox startpage > design i threw together: > http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/web/homepage/screenshot.png > > The artwork in the upper left is: > > http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/web/homepage/clouds.png > > And the SVG for it is on my system at home so I will send that out > tonight if anybody thinks it might be helpful. > > Thanks! > ~m > > ___ > Fedora-art-list mailing list > Fedora-art-list@redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list -- Regards Gerold Kassube Fedora Ambassador Deutschland / Germany Schweiz / Switzerland Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1024D/F33128B9 4ABC A903 F1F4 D9CC C422 AACA EDF1 DF42 F331 28B9 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Hi Gerold, Gerold Kassube wrote: Hi Máirín, we need the Baloon theme picture (http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/09Alock-dialog-system.png) in a 300 dpi eps or svg format (for Linuxtag Germany) Would you please so kind and help us? I'm sorry but the only file resources we have for the F7 theme are on that page. :( What are you looking to do? ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 12:00 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In case it's helpful, this is a screenshot of the firefox startpage > design i threw together: > http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/web/homepage/screenshot.png > Mo, +1, very nice ... John ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Máirín Duffy wrote: I'm going to try to come up with a basic SVG template and send it out tonight, but if you have any ideas / concepts / artwork / mockups please send them! Okay, so here's my first cut at an attempt, using a CD/DVD template from [1]: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/f7/printwork/fc7-cddesign_preview.png Source is here, which includes the aforementioned balloons + clouds artwork: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/f7/printwork/cd-label_fedora-7.svg The fonts used (besides the logo of course) are all Liberation Sans with some Inkscape-rounded-stroke trickery. What do y'all think, is this the right direction? Anyone want to grab the source file and have at it? ~m [1] http://kev.coolcavemen.com/2006/09/cd-templates-for-jewel-case-in-svg/ ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Máirín Duffy wrote: Okay, so here's my first cut at an attempt, using a CD/DVD template from [1]: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/f7/printwork/fc7-cddesign_preview.png Source is here, which includes the aforementioned balloons + clouds artwork: http://people.redhat.com/duffy/fedora/f7/printwork/cd-label_fedora-7.svg Ops! I caught you... :p The embedded bitmap is watermarked :D The fonts used (besides the logo of course) are all Liberation Sans with some Inkscape-rounded-stroke trickery. I know I am nitpicking and Bitstream Vera fonts are free, but you used Libertine on the banner and Bistream Vera on the CD (and yes, one can see thisonly looking at the source). What do y'all think, is this the right direction? Anyone want to grab the source file and have at it? Ignore my whining above, I like your design very much. Just consider the legal disclaimer will be much longer, probably 4 rows (based on the previous designs). And how about using white for the "Live CD x86" text? I find that more readable on the dark background. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Nicu Buculei wrote: Ops! I caught you... :p The embedded bitmap is watermarked :D Which the screenshot? Hehehe :) The fonts used (besides the logo of course) are all Liberation Sans with some Inkscape-rounded-stroke trickery. I know I am nitpicking and Bitstream Vera fonts are free, but you used Libertine on the banner and Bistream Vera on the CD (and yes, one can see thisonly looking at the source). UGH! I keep having this issue with Liberation Sans in Inkscape. I pick Liberation Sans, and it definitely LOOKS like Liberation sans, but then it somehow switches itself to Bitstream Vera or Luxi Sans when I copy it (in the font dropdown! It's the weirdest, most annoying thing!) I don't get what's going on there. I will have to pay more attention to the SVG output and edit by hand. What do y'all think, is this the right direction? Anyone want to grab the source file and have at it? Ignore my whining above, I like your design very much. Just consider the legal disclaimer will be much longer, probably 4 rows (based on the previous designs). lol, yep, I was too lazy to copy it in,w And how about using white for the "Live CD x86" text? I find that more readable on the dark background. +1. Also, the larger balloon on the left looks like someone got hungry and took a bite out of its left side, so that needs some touching up, and I think the clouds could be tweaked to look a little nicer. ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
FYI the liberation fonts are nice and it's certainly worth showcasing them but they're not Fedora 7 default fonts, since they lack extended glyph coverage and lack hinting. -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 17:09 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > FYI the liberation fonts are nice and it's certainly worth showcasing > them but they're not Fedora 7 default fonts, since they lack extended > glyph coverage and lack hinting. Yes, so what ? Are you going to bring this up every time somebody mentions Liberation ? ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 13:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 17:09 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > FYI the liberation fonts are nice and it's certainly worth showcasing > > them but they're not Fedora 7 default fonts, since they lack extended > > glyph coverage and lack hinting. > > Yes, so what ? So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just not supported. > Are you going to bring this up every time somebody > mentions Liberation ? Please. I wrote nice things about the font, and only stated the plain truth. And since you insist I'll add this. Red Hat made a donation. A great one. You're entitled as a Red Hat employee to be proud of your company. But how does it reflect on Fedora? Not at all. At no stage was the Fedora community involved in Liberation. You want info on it you'd better be a journalist and call Red Hat press contacts because you sure won't get any by asking on community lists. The official Liberation page accurately reflect this fact with its Red Hat branding and lack of any fedoraproject.org link or contact. I do some stuff for the Fedora community. I'm happy to see Red Hat Fedora members cheer about some good action their company did. I'm less happy, more accurately I'm deeply uncomfortable with the way non-technical Fedora groups are incited to make Liberation a Fedora emblem. You're supposed to be proud of your emblems. But how can I be proud of Liberation? It happened and still happens outside Fedora¹. It's not even the result of some other community work, but was bought from a professional closed-fonts foundry². What's the relationship of Liberation with the Fedora community work I value? None that I can easily see. ¹ Except perhaps when I donated some of my free time to help push the font package in the distribution, so reality didn't clash overmuch with the PR noise ² whose copyright BTW is the only one embedded in the font files -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 21:16 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state > accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to > localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just > not supported. This is indeed a valid point, and you should have mentioned that concern in your first mail. No need to bring any real or imagined RH vs. community conflict into this. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 15:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 21:16 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > > So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state > > accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to > > localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just > > not supported. > > This is indeed a valid point, and you should have mentioned that concern > in your first mail. I though I did. "they lack extended glyph coverage". Maybe too technical for every reader on this list but certainly not too technical for you. > No need to bring any real or imagined RH vs. community conflict into this. Since your answer to my purely technical and bland message could have been interpreted as a conflict I've preferred to do full disclosure of my feelings on the subject. Feelings are particularly appropriate on this list since it's tasked with creating artwork (translating/conveying/creating emotions from pictures). Lastly I don't see where I wrote about a conflict. I wrote about differences of appreciation, which happen in a community where persons with different backgrounds freely interact. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 22:19 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 15:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > > On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 21:16 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > > > > > So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state > > > accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to > > > localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just > > > not supported. > > > > This is indeed a valid point, and you should have mentioned that concern > > in your first mail. > > I though I did. "they lack extended glyph coverage". Maybe too technical > for every reader on this list but certainly not too technical for you. I might have picked it up, but you muddied the waters with a reference to default fonts... ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 16:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 22:19 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 15:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > > > On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 21:16 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state > > > > accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to > > > > localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just > > > > not supported. > > > > > > This is indeed a valid point, and you should have mentioned that concern > > > in your first mail. > > > > I though I did. "they lack extended glyph coverage". Maybe too technical > > for every reader on this list but certainly not too technical for you. > > I might have picked it up, but you muddied the waters with a reference > to default fonts... So? Are you suggesting it would be a good thing if CD/DVD look diverged significantly from the Fedora desktop ones? We sync the sleeve decorations and colours with the release default background. Why should we not sync the sleeve fonts with the default desktop fonts? Fonts contribute to the theming too. Moreover the desktop and art team have mostly the same font constraints (put FLOSS projects first, provide readable text to the same users with the same langages & scripts, etc). So distribution font choices are certainly relevant to the art team. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Hi Nicolas,
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
So? Are you suggesting it would be a good thing if CD/DVD look diverged
significantly from the Fedora desktop ones? We sync the sleeve
decorations and colours with the release default background. Why should
we not sync the sleeve fonts with the default desktop fonts? Fonts
contribute to the theming too.
Maybe I can help give a little perspective here?
That the fonts complement each other on the desktop and in marketing
materials like wallpapers/theme, and print materials like DVD sleeves
and posters, etc. is important, of course. They do not, however, have to
be the same font. It does indeed *sound* like a good idea but from my
POV as someone who has a lot of experience designing both for-print and
for-screen materials, who'd like us designing compelling print and
marketing materials, I don't think it's a reasonable thing to expect.
Maybe I am just being a silly designer here, but fonts that look good in
print can be quite different than fonts that look good on screen! Fonts
that are used for marketing materials, eg for titling ('Live CD x86')
are not necessarily the fonts you want to use for large bodies of text
meant to be read comfortably on a screen! Does that mean we should limit
ourselves to using fonts that were designed for screen on marketing
materials? I don't think we should.
Moreover the desktop and art team have mostly the same font constraints
(put FLOSS projects first, provide readable text to the same users with
the same langages & scripts, etc). So distribution font choices are
certainly relevant to the art team.
Readable on screen != readable in print. Stylish for a creative
treatment != readable on screen. Etc. etc :)
My POV, the more free & open fonts provided by default in the distro,
the merrier.
~m
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Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 13:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 17:09 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: FYI the liberation fonts are nice and it's certainly worth showcasing them but they're not Fedora 7 default fonts, since they lack extended glyph coverage and lack hinting. Yes, so what ? So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just not supported. I hope it will help to give the reasons why I chose it. I will most certainly switch it to DejaVu Sans, which will have better i18n support, right? I honestly didn't realize Liberation Sans had a coverage problem; I didn't try any non-basic English glyphs with it so that's my bad. (As an aside, how is URW U001 [1] in terms of glyph coverage? Is that another option?) Anyhow, I'm hoping this is already understood, but here was my rationale in using Liberation Sans: Currently the Fedora font that was used for titling on the FC5 and FC6 CD/DVD covers is called Bryant2. It's a non-free font, it actually costs at least a couple hundred dollars to get a license for it which highly annoys me. I only last week got a license for it. I could have used DejaVu Sans, but to be honest I'm really sick of Deja Vu's look since it's one of the only good free & open fonts out there and I've seriously used it to death! :) Liberation Sans is new, it's got a fresh look, and it's open and free. I didn't choose it bc I work for RH and I didn't mean to imply that the font had any kind of connection with Fedora, just that it was far more readily available and easy to use than Bryant2 has been in the past and it's a nice fresh look. Liberation Sans in terms of licensing is definitely better than Bryant2, but if it is limiting to folks internationally then I agree it is a poor choice and I apologize. Are you going to bring this up every time somebody mentions Liberation ? Please. I wrote nice things about the font, and only stated the plain truth. And since you insist I'll add this. Red Hat made a donation. A great one. You're entitled as a Red Hat employee to be proud of your company. But how does it reflect on Fedora? Not at all. At no stage was the Fedora community involved in Liberation. You want info on it you'd better be a journalist and call Red Hat press contacts because you sure won't get any by asking on community lists. The official Liberation page accurately reflect this fact with its Red Hat branding and lack of any fedoraproject.org link or contact. I do some stuff for the Fedora community. I'm happy to see Red Hat Fedora members cheer about some good action their company did. I'm less happy, more accurately I'm deeply uncomfortable with the way non-technical Fedora groups are incited to make Liberation a Fedora emblem. How are non-technical Fedora groups making Liberation a Fedora emblem? Is this what you thought my intent was (it totally wasn't)? :( If not where is this happening? If I see a new, nice-looking open font I get excited and start using it everywhere. The currently-mandated Fedora font is a $$$ closed one. Over time when developing Fedora materials I've used Bitstream Vera & DejaVu but I was simply excited about having some new options. You're supposed to be proud of your emblems. But how can I be proud of Liberation? It happened and still happens outside Fedora¹. It's not even the result of some other community work, but was bought from a professional closed-fonts foundry². What's the relationship of Liberation with the Fedora community work I value? None that I can easily see. But Bitstream is a professional foundry that has closed fonts as well, no? Fonts are really hard to do. It necessitates a lot of time (usually years for good coverage) and effort. I'd like to see the art team grow stronger at some more basic design tasks a bit more gradually than trying to take on creating a whole font (a task for which I'll also mention there hasn't been much interest anyone has expressed in this group.) We are *always* in need of new open fonts though. I agree that the creation of Liberation wasn't done in the Fedora community. But was the creation of Bitstream Vera, the intial set of glyphs that later became DejaVu, also something done in the Fedora community or any FOSS community? Or did Bitstream do the work and then license it openly? (It's a real question, I actually honestly don't know; I was pretty sure the latter was the case though.) ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Máirín Duffy wrote: (As an aside, how is URW U001 [1] in terms of glyph coverage? Is that another option?) Hmm... I think I missed the footnote? Which one is URW U001? All URW fonts I tried never extended much beyond Latin characters, central European extensions to it (e.g. ščř) and punctuation... Nearly no Greek glyphs available. It's a pity since URW fonts are one of the best looking fonts I ever used (in documents, not on screen). DejaVu has quite good coverage, though for using Japanese I still need a separate font, but I guess, we will see some time in the future nearly-full Unicode coverage in DejaVu. About Liberation Fonts... hmm... I tried serif, but didn't like it much... for me it has too thin characters (the whole characters, not strokes)... Martin ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 19:08 -0400, Máirín Duffy a écrit : > Hi Nicolas, > > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le vendredi 25 mai 2007 à 13:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > >> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 17:09 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > >>> FYI the liberation fonts are nice and it's certainly worth showcasing > >>> them but they're not Fedora 7 default fonts, since they lack extended > >>> glyph coverage and lack hinting. > >> Yes, so what ? > > > > So using them systematically is not reflecting the project state > > accurately, and it will hurt the local Fedora groups when they try to > > localise Fedora marketing material and discover their language is just > > not supported. > > I hope it will help to give the reasons why I chose it. I will most > certainly switch it to DejaVu Sans, which will have better i18n support, > right? I honestly didn't realize Liberation Sans had a coverage problem; > I didn't try any non-basic English glyphs with it so that's my bad. Liberation Sans has not a coverage "problem", it already includes greek and cyrillic glyphs (which is more than Bitstream Vera when it was released, or most latin-only fonts you can buy). It's just that it does not really compare to some of our other fonts, and even its coverage of latin, greek ans cyrillic is not complete (so big languages will work, minority/local languages won't). A very crude way to assess a font is to upload it on http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/custom.htm read the glyph count and look at the glyph matrix. A much better indicator would be the language support coverage matrix DejaVu publishes with every release but its generator needs fontconfig sources and fonts in sfd format (IIRC) so it's not useful for the average artists. We really need a tester tool that would do the same on any on-disk ttf/otf font. Anyway, some result for F7 common FLOSS fonts: - DejaVu Sans/Serif: 4538/1939 - DejaVU LGC Sans/Serif: 3532/1881 - Linux Libertine: 2274 - Gentium: 1699 - Liberation Sans/Serif: 668/661 - Vera Sans/Serif: 268 And another we should really get into Fedora, but has a build system from hell (and what's the point of FLOSS if you can't work from sources) and is in opentype OTF format all out tools can not handle yet: Computer Modern Unicode ( http://canopus.iacp.dvo.ru/%7Epanov/cm-unicode/ ) > (As an aside, how is URW U001 [1] in terms of glyph coverage? Is that > another option?) IIRC URW U001 is free-to-use but not especially FLOSS, limited to latin (and even basic latin), and in legacy type one format people are moving away from. […] > I could have used DejaVu Sans, but to be honest I'm really sick of Deja > Vu's look since it's one of the only good free & open fonts out there > and I've seriously used it to death! :) You have to compromise. Entities with an international reach (like Fedora) almost never use the very distinctive fonts you way be used to as a designer, for the following reasons: - it's very hard and costly to create international fonts - it's even harder to decline an original font - any substitution for coverage reasons is going to stand out. And projecting a common worldwide style is more valuable than being cool in a few countries - very distinctive fonts are distinctive because they're different from the ones people are used to read, ie harder to read. - Title fonts in particular are useless for plain text, which is another reason people don't bother extending their coverage - very distinctive fonts often do not age gracefully (trends change, a style may be great one year and laughable 5 years later) - periodic re-styling is no option, it's overly costly and hurts the common unified persona you want to project It's probably OK to use Liberation for titles. The benefits of showcasing it may outweight the fact it won't be a choice for many languages. Using it for text where the glyphs are too small for most people to see the difference OTOH is stupid IMHO. Also only using Liberation fonts (as I've seen proposed, including in the message I reacted to) is sending a message I don't agree with (as already explained) > How are non-technical Fedora groups making Liberation a Fedora emblem? The original RH PR release wrote about FLOSS fonts intended to replace [a lot of things] (when it will be finished), and many people have taken it as "Fedora intent is to use Liberation in all its documents *now* because it's the only realistic FLOSS font" > But Bitstream is a professional foundry that has closed fonts as well, > no? Current default is DejaVu LGC which is not produced by Bitstream but by a FLOSS project. Also there's no possible comparison between the handling by GNOME of the Bitstream fonts and the handling by Red Hat of Liberation. > Or did Bitstream do the work and then license it openly? > (It's a real question, I actually honestly don't know; I was pretty > sure the latter was the case though.) Bitstream did most of the work but the final stage saw a dialog between
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le samedi 26 mai 2007 à 11:07 +0200, Martin Sourada a écrit : > DejaVu has quite good coverage, though for using > Japanese I still need a separate font, but I guess, we will see some time in > the > future nearly-full Unicode coverage in DejaVu. nearly-full Unicode coverage is a lot of work, so some time in the future may be a long time in the future (the project is progressing along nicely but I don't see scripts with a big number of glyphs like Japanese happen soon as the current designers are already busy elsewhere) If you know interested people (that know font design or are willing to learn) they always need new hands. The required tools are included in Fedora. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Nicolas Mailhot wrote: [... snip ...] A very crude way to assess a font is to upload it on http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/custom.htm read the glyph count and look at the glyph matrix. A much better indicator would be the language support coverage matrix DejaVu publishes with every release but its generator needs fontconfig sources and fonts in sfd format (IIRC) so it's not useful for the average artists. We really need a tester tool that would do the same on any on-disk ttf/otf font. Sweet, this is all very useful info, thank you! Anyway, some result for F7 common FLOSS fonts: - DejaVu Sans/Serif: 4538/1939 - DejaVU LGC Sans/Serif: 3532/1881 - Linux Libertine: 2274 - Gentium: 1699 - Liberation Sans/Serif: 668/661 - Vera Sans/Serif: 268 Cool I haven't heard of a couple of those actually (Libertine and Gentium) so I will check them out. Are the Luxi and Nimbus fonts FLOSS at all? And another we should really get into Fedora, but has a build system from hell (and what's the point of FLOSS if you can't work from sources) and is in opentype OTF format all out tools can not handle yet: Computer Modern Unicode ( http://canopus.iacp.dvo.ru/%7Epanov/cm-unicode/ ) (As an aside, how is URW U001 [1] in terms of glyph coverage? Is that another option?) IIRC URW U001 is free-to-use but not especially FLOSS, limited to latin (and even basic latin), and in legacy type one format people are moving away from. […] I could have used DejaVu Sans, but to be honest I'm really sick of Deja Vu's look since it's one of the only good free & open fonts out there and I've seriously used it to death! :) You have to compromise. Entities with an international reach (like Fedora) almost never use the very distinctive fonts you way be used to as a designer, for the following reasons: - it's very hard and costly to create international fonts - it's even harder to decline an original font - any substitution for coverage reasons is going to stand out. And projecting a common worldwide style is more valuable than being cool in a few countries - very distinctive fonts are distinctive because they're different from the ones people are used to read, ie harder to read. FWIW, by stylish/distinctive I don't mean you know, something tacky like Comic Sans or Papyrus or Vivaldi, I mean more readable fonts like Gill Sans or Myriad. - Title fonts in particular are useless for plain text, which is another reason people don't bother extending their coverage - very distinctive fonts often do not age gracefully (trends change, a style may be great one year and laughable 5 years later) - periodic re-styling is no option, it's overly costly and hurts the common unified persona you want to project' It's probably OK to use Liberation for titles. The benefits of showcasing it may outweight the fact it won't be a choice for many languages. Using it for text where the glyphs are too small for most people to see the difference OTOH is stupid IMHO. I was proposing to use it for titles - eg the name of the CD/DVD. Also only using Liberation fonts (as I've seen proposed, including in the message I reacted to) is sending a message I don't agree with (as already explained) I never proposed this, sorry, and I just re-read my mail to make sure it couldn't have been misconstrued that way either. I said *all* the fonts I used in my very first draft were Liberation, yes (because of sheer laziness on my part actually.) I never proposed that we *only* use Liberation Sans, though, (and I was especially not proposing using only Liberation Sans beyond the scope of this CD/DVD label design). Seriously. How are non-technical Fedora groups making Liberation a Fedora emblem? The original RH PR release wrote about FLOSS fonts intended to replace [a lot of things] (when it will be finished), and many people have taken it as "Fedora intent is to use Liberation in all its documents *now* because it's the only realistic FLOSS font" I just re-read the Red Hat press release and I think that's a bit of a leap you've made there. If you can point to some specific quote... but I'm not seeing any in this. Maybe the word "substitution" in order to explain the differences between and provide examples each of serif, sans serif, and monotype fonts was a poor choice? But I only saw that as explaining the types of fonts they were (especially in the absence of a sorely-needed type sample on that page!) But Bitstream is a professional foundry that has closed fonts as well, no? Current default is DejaVu LGC which is not produced by Bitstream but by a FLOSS project. DejaVu is a fork of Bitstream, is it not? Or I have completely misunderstood? Also there's no possible comparison between the handling by GNOME of the Bitstream fonts and the handling by Red Hat of Liberation. Why? Or did Bitstream do the work and then license it openly? (It's a real question, I actually honestly don't know; I was pretty sure the latter was
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le dimanche 27 mai 2007 à 00:12 -0400, Máirín Duffy a écrit : > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > [... snip ...] > > > A very crude way to assess a font is to upload it on > > http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/custom.htm read the glyph > > count and look at the glyph matrix. A much better indicator would be the > > language support coverage matrix DejaVu publishes with every release but > > its generator needs fontconfig sources and fonts in sfd format (IIRC) so > > it's not useful for the average artists. We really need a tester tool > > that would do the same on any on-disk ttf/otf font. > > Sweet, this is all very useful info, thank you! > > > Anyway, some result for F7 common FLOSS fonts: > > - DejaVu Sans/Serif: 4538/1939 > > - DejaVU LGC Sans/Serif: 3532/1881 And I've forgotten - Charis SIL: 3084 (but the Fedora version is out of date and includes non-unicode glyphs) - Doulos SIL: 3083 (if you don't need italic or bold) > > - Linux Libertine: 2274 > > - Gentium: 1699 > > - Liberation Sans/Serif: 668/661 > > - Vera Sans/Serif: 268 > > Cool I haven't heard of a couple of those actually (Libertine and > Gentium) so I will check them out. Gentium has a terrific reputation but is not growing very fast > Are the Luxi and Nimbus fonts FLOSS at all? Luxi - no¹, Nimbus, maybe (but they're dead wood and thoroughly lacking coverage anyway) > I was proposing to use it for titles - eg the name of the CD/DVD. And I wrote I was ok with title use in my first message > (and I was especially not proposing using only > Liberation Sans beyond the scope of this CD/DVD label design). Seriously. Then it was not so clear to me, sorry > >> How are non-technical Fedora groups making Liberation a Fedora emblem? > > > > The original RH PR release wrote about FLOSS fonts intended to replace > > [a lot of things] (when it will be finished), and many people have taken > > it as "Fedora intent is to use Liberation in all its documents *now* > > because it's the only realistic FLOSS font" > > I just re-read the Red Hat press release and I think that's a bit of a > leap you've made there. If you can point to some specific quote... That's what many people understood (just read reactions in ML archives) and it was never clarified officially. > > Current default is DejaVu LGC which is not produced by Bitstream but by > > a FLOSS project. > > DejaVu is a fork of Bitstream, is it not? Or I have completely > misunderstood? Bitstream contributions are the core of DejaVu but they've long since been dwarfed by non-Bitstream community contributions > > Also there's no possible comparison between the > > handling by GNOME of the Bitstream fonts and the handling by Red Hat of > > Liberation. > > Why? You can easily check on the GNOME page that the Vera release team did a lot of work to collect and encourage feedback, and answer common questions (that's a big reason DejaVu happened a few years later). The Liberation page does not even have contact info to send questions to. > >> Or did Bitstream do the work and then license it openly? > >> (It's a real question, I actually honestly don't know; I was pretty > >> sure the latter was the case though.) > > > > Bitstream did most of the work but the final stage saw a dialog between > > the designer and the FLOSS community (feedback, change demands, etc.). > > Vera was not just a PR release with some files to download. > > > > http://www.gnome.org/fonts/ has archived all of it. > > Have you tried to work with Red Hat on Liberation in its final stages > (as it's not complete yet) and not heard back or something? I've asked the various @rh people that have relayed Liberation-related stuff Fedora-side and never received any actual answers (more like "we don't care it's our stuff go away" reactions). ¹ http://www.xfree86.org/current/LICENSE11.html#34 -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 12:19 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > A very crude way to assess a font is to upload it on > http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/custom.htm read the glyph > count and look at the glyph matrix. A much better indicator would be the > language support coverage matrix DejaVu publishes with every release but > its generator needs fontconfig sources and fonts in sfd format (IIRC) so > it's not useful for the average artists. We really need a tester tool > that would do the same on any on-disk ttf/otf font. > > Anyway, some result for F7 common FLOSS fonts: > - DejaVu Sans/Serif: 4538/1939 > - DejaVU LGC Sans/Serif: 3532/1881 > - Linux Libertine: 2274 > - Gentium: 1699 > - Liberation Sans/Serif: 668/661 > - Vera Sans/Serif: 268 Please, don't fall in the "coverage rathole" as Owen likes to call it. There are more important qualities of a font that covering as much as possible of Unicode. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Being busy recently, I managed to strip out color from the original eps in 8 monochrome colors using both Gimp and Inkscape. You can view the result below. http://www.thefinalzone.com/images/fedora/11cdDVDLabel_modified.svg http://www.thefinalzone.com/images/fedora/11cdDVDLabel_modified.eps - -- Luya Tshimbalanga http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LuyaTshimbalanga Fedora Art Team Fedora Project contributor -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGWgQia10Jb0NOz+ERAgL3AJwIr5gC5mq8lmIr2OfVjGNEX6WO2gCeOI6M kKMaeb3Eu5FBoKd3+MdoKyA= =QvUw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Replying to myself, I have updated the svg format. http://www.thefinalzone.com/images/fedora/11cdDVDLabel_mod.svg -- Luya Tshimbalanga http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LuyaTshimbalanga Fedora Art Team ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le dimanche 27 mai 2007 à 10:58 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 12:19 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > > A very crude way to assess a font is to upload it on > > http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/custom.htm read the glyph > > count and look at the glyph matrix. A much better indicator would be the > > language support coverage matrix DejaVu publishes with every release but > > its generator needs fontconfig sources and fonts in sfd format (IIRC) so > > it's not useful for the average artists. We really need a tester tool > > that would do the same on any on-disk ttf/otf font. > > > > Anyway, some result for F7 common FLOSS fonts: > > - DejaVu Sans/Serif: 4538/1939 > > - DejaVU LGC Sans/Serif: 3532/1881 > > - Linux Libertine: 2274 > > - Gentium: 1699 > > - Liberation Sans/Serif: 668/661 > > - Vera Sans/Serif: 268 > > Please, don't fall in the "coverage rathole" as Owen likes to call it. > There are more important qualities of a font that covering as much as > possible of Unicode. That's a very US-centric view and one reason we almost had a Greek revolt a few releases back. I suppose I should make pretty labels like Owen. "redneck guetto" comes to mind. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On Mon, 2007-05-28 at 01:22 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > Please, don't fall in the "coverage rathole" as Owen likes to call it. > > There are more important qualities of a font that covering as much as > > possible of Unicode. > > That's a very US-centric view and one reason we almost had a Greek > revolt a few releases back. > > I suppose I should make pretty labels like Owen. "redneck guetto" comes > to mind. > I'm all for supporting all the worlds language. I don't agree that the best way to achieve that is stuffing all the glyphs in a single font. Does that make me a redneck ? I don't think so. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
Le dimanche 27 mai 2007 à 23:27 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : > On Mon, 2007-05-28 at 01:22 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > > > Please, don't fall in the "coverage rathole" as Owen likes to call it. > > > There are more important qualities of a font that covering as much as > > > possible of Unicode. > > > > That's a very US-centric view and one reason we almost had a Greek > > revolt a few releases back. > > > > I suppose I should make pretty labels like Owen. "redneck guetto" comes > > to mind. > > > > I'm all for supporting all the worlds language. I don't agree that the > best way to achieve that is stuffing all the glyphs in a single font. Well, I don't agree that having many Unicode blocks supported by a single font automatically make this font a "rathole", and this stupid prejudice made us waste months/years because some people (including Owen) wouldn't look at the actual fonts and decided from unicode coverage metrics they must be bad (what turned out to be bad was bugs & lack of support for OpenType features in our font infrastructure). > Does that make me a redneck ? I don't think so. It makes you a redneck when you decide a font is bad just by looking at it's coverage numbers. Anyway, this battle has already been fought, every year brings FLOSS and proprietary fonts with wider coverage because that's what the market and users want, and even the puny latin/greek/cyrillic Liberation sports today would have been considered insane by "coverage rathole" people three years ago. I'd be nice if the same old tired "unicode → bad" argument was not brought up every other month though. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Fedora 7 CD Labels & Covers
On 5/28/07, Luya Tshimbalanga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Replying to myself, I have updated the svg format. http://www.thefinalzone.com/images/fedora/11cdDVDLabel_mod.svg Choice of fonts for "Release 7" and "x86 version" looks too different and too straight when compared to nice round fedora fonts. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
