Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-19 Thread Nicu Buculei

Diana Fong wrote:


I also include an additional shadow to overlapping objects, such as 
'drive-optical.'  This is to create a bit of depth, while also help to 
visually separate/identify the overlapping objects.  The color for this 
also varies depending on how dark or light the back object is.  However, 
a starting point could also be #33 or more accurately #2D2D2D at 
50%-75% blur size of 2-3px.



As I usually insert the shadows after creating the vector icon shapes 
and so I do not have the blur info.


Just as an example, for 48x48 px GNOME icons is suggested a shadow added 
with GIMP with 4 pixel distance, 4 pixel blur, 40% opacity - 
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/icons-design.html


That is a shadow I personally feel a little too light.

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-19 Thread Diana Fong

Martin Sourada wrote:
Teoretically, from the position of the imaginary light source we might 
guess, that it is time around noon. So the shadows - epsecially their 
opacity should reflect this. Thus they should not be very dark. Next, 
I would pick the one of the more"massive" icons (because it would cast 
more shadow than a smaller one) and choose the base values for it. The 
darkest would be nearest the place where the icon touches the 
imaginary ground. For that purpose, I think, could serve e.g. 
'video-display'. But how to chose the best value for that particular 
icon? I think we could try different values of opacity and brightness 
(for start grey scale would serve well) against different backrounds 
and pick up that which works nicest with most of them - this should be 
the one that resembles most the behaviour of real shadow IMO. Than we 
should decide how much of the shape of the icon we want to save in its 
shadow. Looking at the icons I would suppose that only simplified 
outline. Finally I would choose how blurry we wont it to be - that has 
a lot to do with the shape preservation I think. In other cases the 
shadow should be more transparent and more blurry, but not much; the 
amount I would leave on artists. The colouring I would leave as it is 
suggested on wiki.


I think, if we start with dark-grey or black(ish) colour values (aka 
$66 and $33) for the brightness and pick the desired opacity 
for them it might be the best, since these are on Echo Icon Pallette. 
Also the decision would thus simplify to choosing just one out of two 
colours and opacity for darkest shadow. 


As per your suggestion, I looked at the various shadows and here are 
some numbers that might help...for 'video-display' I used #2D2D2D at 75% 
as the darkest.  That color is closest to #33. For objects that do 
not touch the ground (as with 'list-remove') the opacity is closer to 
15% if still using #33.  Of course, we can change these if it's 
found not to be useful when tested against the various backgrounds.  As 
in my examples, I've only tested against white (which I took to account 
for the light color of panels and window browsers) and a dark gray 
(which accounts for darker wallpapers and possibly dark window 
borders).  Obviously, a more conclusive test could be conducted here if 
someone would like to take it on.



I also include an additional shadow to overlapping objects, such as 
'drive-optical.'  This is to create a bit of depth, while also help to 
visually separate/identify the overlapping objects.  The color for this 
also varies depending on how dark or light the back object is.  However, 
a starting point could also be #33 or more accurately #2D2D2D at 
50%-75% blur size of 2-3px.



As I usually insert the shadows after creating the vector icon shapes 
and so I do not have the blur info.



As evident with the existing icons, I've not tried to preserve the exact 
shape of the icon in the shadow.  For the action icons, I've gone with 
more of a simple shadow below the object.  With other icons, the shadow 
does take on a very skewed, simplified outline of the shape which often 
does not reflect the shape of the top of the object.  Example...the 
shadow of 'audio-input-microphone' is mainly of the base, with only a 
slight hint of the top microphone.



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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Martin Sourada
Teoretically, from the position of the imaginary light source we might 
guess, that it is time around noon. So the shadows - epsecially their 
opacity should reflect this. Thus they should not be very dark. Next, I 
would pick the one of the more"massive" icons (because it would cast 
more shadow than a smaller one) and choose the base values for it. The 
darkest would be nearest the place where the icon touches the imaginary 
ground. For that purpose, I think, could serve e.g. 'video-display'. But 
how to chose the best value for that particular icon? I think we could 
try different values of opacity and brightness (for start grey scale 
would serve well) against different backrounds and pick up that which 
works nicest with most of them - this should be the one that resembles 
most the behaviour of real shadow IMO. Than we should decide how much of 
the shape of the icon we want to save in its shadow. Looking at the 
icons I would suppose that only simplified outline. Finally I would 
choose how blurry we wont it to be - that has a lot to do with the shape 
preservation I think. In other cases the shadow should be more 
transparent and more blurry, but not much; the amount I would leave on 
artists. The colouring I would leave as it is suggested on wiki.


I think, if we start with dark-grey or black(ish) colour values (aka 
$66 and $33) for the brightness and pick the desired opacity for 
them it might be the best, since these are on Echo Icon Pallette. Also 
the decision would thus simplify to choosing just one out of two colours 
and opacity for darkest shadow.


Diana Fong napsal(a):
Looking at various icons created in the past, it 
seems...*squints*...that the darkest color is semitransparent.  This 
is not really that noticeable and some might not be semitransparent 
(but that could be fixed to fit the rule we come up with for 
consistency).
So let's conclude that it is semitransparent.  What then, are the 
cases and values?  Also, what should be the opacity value of the 
darkest area?  Care to take a first crack at breaking these down?



Thanks,
Diana Fong
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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Diana Fong

Martin Sourada wrote:
Maybe we should at least consider whether the darkest color at the 
first end should be solid or semitransparent. If it would be 
semitranpsparent than the amount of lightness in that point could be 
handled only by the transparency. As it is in real world - when the 
object which casts the shadow is nearer than the shadow is darker and 
less blurry, in oposite way a light find its way (due to diffraction 
and dispersion) and allows us to see more details of background and 
less details in a shadow. So we could in that case decide the basic 
values - when the shadow is casted from a solid object directly above 
- and the other values simply would be an alternation of these - like 
in the case of glass more degree of transparency. Do you think this 
could work well? I think shadows for an icon set should be consistent. 


Looking at various icons created in the past, it 
seems...*squints*...that the darkest color is semitransparent.  This is 
not really that noticeable and some might not be semitransparent (but 
that could be fixed to fit the rule we come up with for consistency). 

So let's conclude that it is semitransparent.  What then, are the cases 
and values?  Also, what should be the opacity value of the darkest 
area?  Care to take a first crack at breaking these down?



Thanks,
Diana Fong
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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Martin Sourada
Maybe we should at least consider whether the darkest color at the first 
end should be solid or semitransparent. If it would be semitranpsparent 
than the amount of lightness in that point could be handled only by the 
transparency. As it is in real world - when the object which casts the 
shadow is nearer than the shadow is darker and less blurry, in oposite 
way a light find its way (due to diffraction and dispersion) and allows 
us to see more details of background and less details in a shadow. So we 
could in that case decide the basic values - when the shadow is casted 
from a solid object directly above - and the other values simply would 
be an alternation of these - like in the case of glass more degree of 
transparency. Do you think this could work well? I think shadows for an 
icon set should be consistent.


Diana Fong wrote:
The shadow, quickly examined, is a sort of gradient with the darkest 
(sometimes solid) color at one end (often closest/touching the object) 
and a transition to transparent pixels at the other thus allowing the 
sense of integration with the panel, background, and such.  The 
general guideline provided was to describe my approach of using a dark 
gray as the starting point for the shadow's gradient.  When creating 
the initial icons I often found myself creating far too dark shadows 
if I started with black.  When creating several of these icons a day, 
I easily found my shadows getting darker and darker.  Thus starting 
with a dark gray, instead of black, helped me take care of this 
problem and thus my posted suggestion to other contributors.

What should the values be?

Colors and shapes are relative.  Artists should be encouraged to use 
their artistic sense in determining relative colors, with the posted 
palette as a base guideline.  A color determined for one icon might 
not work as well for another, thus the value added by artists who can 
visually compensate and flexibly combine colors and shapes to create 
pieces that work both as an individual icon and as part of the whole 
set.  An example of this is...system-search...the tilt of the object 
requires darker shadows near the handle and a lighter shadow cast by 
the glass itself.  Compare this icon to any of the others that sit 
directly on surface, such as applications-internet, the shadows for 
those are slightly darker.


With that said, I am not opposed to further clarifying, correcting, or 
expanding the initial guidelines.  With specific questions such as the 
ones raised about Stars and Pluses, the guidelines can be made to be 
more detailed and informative.  This is an ongoing project.  
Presenting works in progress, runs the risk of missing and inadequate 
information. However, these can be constructively discussed, proposed, 
and remedied.


To address this specific issue, I still stand with my recommendation 
of starting with a dark gray instead of black.  Due to the blur aspect 
of the shadow, it seemed somewhat obvious that the shadow would be 
semitransparent...but this can be specifically added in the guidelines 
for additional clarity.  As for the exact value of dark gray...perhaps 
Luya can propose (and Martin or others can confirm) a few Hex Values, 
since the shadows on the emotion icons seem to be good starting 
points.  However, I would like to stress again, that these numbers 
should really be used as references, allowing artists the flexibility 
to tweak as appropriate from icon to icon.



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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Diana Fong

Martin Sourada wrote:
I folowed the guidlines and there is said: "The shadow is formed by 
lines from the isometric grid. It is appears primarily behind the 
object; as well as a bit in front of and under the object. Do not to 
use black, as it is too harsh and does not scale well...dark gray is 
acceptable."


Do you think, that using black with transparency would be better than 
using dark-grey without transparency (save for the blur effect which 
adds transparency, of course)?


And yes, it would be good to document the certain values on wiki. But 
we must first decide which ones are the best...


The shadow, quickly examined, is a sort of gradient with the darkest 
(sometimes solid) color at one end (often closest/touching the object) 
and a transition to transparent pixels at the other thus allowing the 
sense of integration with the panel, background, and such.  The general 
guideline provided was to describe my approach of using a dark gray as 
the starting point for the shadow's gradient.  When creating the initial 
icons I often found myself creating far too dark shadows if I started 
with black.  When creating several of these icons a day, I easily found 
my shadows getting darker and darker.  Thus starting with a dark gray, 
instead of black, helped me take care of this problem and thus my posted 
suggestion to other contributors. 


What should the values be?

Colors and shapes are relative.  Artists should be encouraged to use 
their artistic sense in determining relative colors, with the posted 
palette as a base guideline.  A color determined for one icon might not 
work as well for another, thus the value added by artists who can 
visually compensate and flexibly combine colors and shapes to create 
pieces that work both as an individual icon and as part of the whole 
set.  An example of this is...system-search...the tilt of the object 
requires darker shadows near the handle and a lighter shadow cast by the 
glass itself.  Compare this icon to any of the others that sit directly 
on surface, such as applications-internet, the shadows for those are 
slightly darker.


With that said, I am not opposed to further clarifying, correcting, or 
expanding the initial guidelines.  With specific questions such as the 
ones raised about Stars and Pluses, the guidelines can be made to be 
more detailed and informative.  This is an ongoing project.  Presenting 
works in progress, runs the risk of missing and inadequate information. 
However, these can be constructively discussed, proposed, and remedied.


To address this specific issue, I still stand with my recommendation of 
starting with a dark gray instead of black.  Due to the blur aspect of 
the shadow, it seemed somewhat obvious that the shadow would be 
semitransparent...but this can be specifically added in the guidelines 
for additional clarity.  As for the exact value of dark gray...perhaps 
Luya can propose (and Martin or others can confirm) a few Hex Values, 
since the shadows on the emotion icons seem to be good starting points.  
However, I would like to stress again, that these numbers should really 
be used as references, allowing artists the flexibility to tweak as 
appropriate from icon to icon.



Diana Fong
---
Red Hat
Visual Designer | Desktop Group

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Luya Tshimbalanga
Martin Sourada wrote:
> Ok, so I decided to put the shadow to the svg as well. I attach PNGs
> for large and small sizes. SVGs can be downloaded here:
> http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeL.svg
> http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeS.svg

go-home icons are now published on the echo-development wiki

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoDevelopment

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Nicu Buculei

Martin Sourada wrote:
I folowed the guidlines and there is said: "The shadow is formed by 
lines from the isometric grid. It is appears primarily behind the 
object; as well as a bit in front of and under the object. Do not to use 
black, as it is too harsh and does not scale well...dark gray is 
acceptable."


Of course not *solid* black. I think the intention is to use black with 
a degree of transparency, which look gray, at least this is what the 
other icon sets (for example Tango) do.


Do you think, that using black with transparency would be better than 
using dark-grey without transparency (save for the blur effect which 
adds transparency, of course)?


Definitely the shadow must have transparency, be it transparent black or 
transparent dark gray as the icon can be shown against a colored or 
textured background and it will look smooth only with transparency.


And yes, it would be good to document the certain values on wiki. But we 
must first decide which ones are the best...


The eternal question (see the "Artwork conversation" thread): who has 
the power to define those values? We have to wait for Diana?


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Martin Sourada
I folowed the guidlines and there is said: "The shadow is formed by 
lines from the isometric grid. It is appears primarily behind the 
object; as well as a bit in front of and under the object. Do not to use 
black, as it is too harsh and does not scale well...dark gray is 
acceptable."


Do you think, that using black with transparency would be better than 
using dark-grey without transparency (save for the blur effect which 
adds transparency, of course)?


And yes, it would be good to document the certain values on wiki. But we 
must first decide which ones are the best...


Nicu Buculei wrote:

Martin Sourada wrote:
Ok, so I decided to put the shadow to the svg as well. I attach PNGs 
for large and small sizes. SVGs can be downloaded here:

http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeL.svg
http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeS.svg


I would recommend you to use black instead of gray (#66) as the 
color of the shadow and document the values for blur and transparency 
in the wiki (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoIconGuidelines) 
as a reference for the other icon creators.




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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Nicu Buculei

Martin Sourada wrote:
Ok, so I decided to put the shadow to the svg as well. I attach PNGs for 
large and small sizes. SVGs can be downloaded here:

http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeL.svg
http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeS.svg


I would recommend you to use black instead of gray (#66) as the 
color of the shadow and document the values for blur and transparency in 
the wiki (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoIconGuidelines) as a 
reference for the other icon creators.


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Martin Sourada
Ok, so I decided to put the shadow to the svg as well. I attach PNGs for 
large and small sizes. SVGs can be downloaded here:

http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeL.svg
http://feannatar.hostuju.cz/fedora/files/echo/go-homeS.svg


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Luya Tshimbalanga
Nicu Buculei wrote:
>
> The shadow made with the blur filter is the proper one, fake was using
> pre-0.45 ways, like the "blur edge" effect or using gradients.
I used gradients for the emotes. I will plan to update them using blur
filter on post F7.

>
> I don't think Firefox 2 not supporting blur is a blocker, the icons
> are not intended to be shown as SVG by the web browser (and to enter
> in details, the web server hosting he wiki is anyway improperly
> configured to serve a wrong MIME Type for SVG, so you can't see SVG in
> browser even if you try).
>

Ah, that explains why Firefox asked to download svg file.

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Nicu Buculei

Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:


Without folder in order to be consistent. PNG icon can be with shadow
while SVG icon can be without it. However, with Inkscape 0.45 it is
possible fake a shadow because of blur effect (not supported on Firefox
2 and earlier)


The shadow made with the blur filter is the proper one, fake was using 
pre-0.45 ways, like the "blur edge" effect or using gradients.


I don't think Firefox 2 not supporting blur is a blocker, the icons are 
not intended to be shown as SVG by the web browser (and to enter in 
details, the web server hosting he wiki is anyway improperly configured 
to serve a wrong MIME Type for SVG, so you can't see SVG in browser even 
if you try).


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Nicu Buculei

Martin Sourada wrote:
Certainly, I can provide both png and svg. But, should I provide both 
with and without a folder? And, about the shadows - I saw, that svgs are 
usualy without shadows - is that only because inkscape didn't have the 
needed feature? If that is so, should I add the shadow only to the png, 
or to svg as well?


The SVGs have no shadows because of two reasons:
- Inkscape had no blur filter in a release until recently;
- Diana made the first icons in Illustrator, which I don't know how 
create shadows (with SVG filters or embedded bitmaps, at one point it 
used bitmaps for blur).


As Inkscape was updated to 0.45 is in Fedora 5 and 6 I believe you can 
safely use the blur filter in SVG.


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Luya Tshimbalanga
Martin Sourada wrote:
> Certainly, I can provide both png and svg. But, should I provide both
> with and without a folder? And, about the shadows - I saw, that svgs
> are usualy without shadows - is that only because inkscape didn't have
> the needed feature? If that is so, should I add the shadow only to the
> png, or to svg as well?
Without folder in order to be consistent. PNG icon can be with shadow
while SVG icon can be without it. However, with Inkscape 0.45 it is
possible fake a shadow because of blur effect (not supported on Firefox
2 and earlier)

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Martin Sourada
Certainly, I can provide both png and svg. But, should I provide both 
with and without a folder? And, about the shadows - I saw, that svgs are 
usualy without shadows - is that only because inkscape didn't have the 
needed feature? If that is so, should I add the shadow only to the png, 
or to svg as well?


Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:

Could you provide both png and svg so go-home can be published on the
wiki? To do the shadow, follow this guideline
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoIconGuidelines
  


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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-16 Thread Luya Tshimbalanga
Could you provide both png and svg so go-home can be published on the
wiki? To do the shadow, follow this guideline
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoIconGuidelines

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-15 Thread Martin Sourada

Uno Engborg wrote:
I'm not quite sure if I have gotten this right. Are all the above 
icons supposed to mean the same thing?
Yes, you got it right, all the four icons are supposed to mean the same 
thing.
If so I would go for the house silhouette alone, without a folder. It 
takes much more brain processing power to recognize a house on a 
folder than just a plain house shape. Shapes
are among the things we recognize very quickly. The house icon is the 
icon that has the most uniqueness in shape of the ones that you 
suggested.
My personal opinion is that the ones with the folder looks better, but I 
must also agree with you, that the ones without the folder are easier 
recognized. Maybe the one with the folder could be used for large size 
and the one without the folder for small size?
Another thing, the arrow somehow indicates a directional move, i.e. go 
back to home or go forward to home. Does this really make sense in the 
application? I would think that the direction from where you get to 
home is irrellevant in most cases. so we should not invite the user to 
think
in terms of back and  forward. So I suggest you leave out the arrow or 
make it point to the house in e.g. 45 degree angle. That way you could 
indicate move without involving allready taken concepts like "back", 
"forward", "up", "down" that is used elsewhere.  Leaving out the arrow 
is probably the best option as it makes the icon less complicated, so 
the plain blue house is the best alternative in my oppinion.
Hmm... I didn't reailze that. Just placed the arrow where it fitted best 
and pointed it to doors (likewise it is done in application-exit icon 
from Mola). Anyway, it was just an idea, it can be left out if it does 
not fit well with it.


Thanks for your comments :-)

Regards,
Martin Sourada

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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-15 Thread Uno Engborg

Martin Sourada skrev:
Thanks for your critics and suggestion. I take a look at it, as you 
sugested, and two or three ideas came to my mind - and result are four 
slightly different icons. First idea is to take the house part of the 
user-home icon alone and change its perspective, second is to take 
both the folder and house and change its perspective and third idea is 
to add an arrow to it to signalize action. I attach pngs only, but if 
you want I can also supply svgs. And there are no shadows yet.


Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:

Quoting Martin Sourada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

 

Hi again,

I made the icons for 16x16, 24x24 and 48x48 sizes and tried to follow
echo guidlines. I attach all. What do you think?




This go-home icon looks odd because it looks out of place in echo 
world. It will

on kids theme IMHO.
I suggest to take a look on user-home icon from echo so you can get 
some ideas.


  















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I'm not quite sure if I have gotten this right. Are all the above icons 
supposed to mean the same thing?


If so I would go for the house silhouette alone, without a folder. It 
takes much more brain processing power to recognize a house on a folder 
than just a plain house shape. Shapes
are among the things we recognize very quickly. The house icon is the 
icon that has the most uniqueness in shape of the ones that you suggested.


Another thing, the arrow somehow indicates a directional move, i.e. go 
back to home or go forward to home. Does this really make sense in the 
application? I would think that the direction from where you get to home 
is irrellevant in most cases. so we should not invite the user to think
in terms of back and  forward. So I suggest you leave out the arrow or 
make it point to the house in e.g. 45 degree angle. That way you could 
indicate move without involving allready taken concepts like "back", 
"forward", "up", "down" that is used elsewhere.  Leaving out the arrow 
is probably the best option as it makes the icon less complicated, so 
the plain blue house is the best alternative in my oppinion.


Regards
Uno Engborg




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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-15 Thread Martin Sourada
Thanks for your critics and suggestion. I take a look at it, as you 
sugested, and two or three ideas came to my mind - and result are four 
slightly different icons. First idea is to take the house part of the 
user-home icon alone and change its perspective, second is to take both 
the folder and house and change its perspective and third idea is to add 
an arrow to it to signalize action. I attach pngs only, but if you want 
I can also supply svgs. And there are no shadows yet.


Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:

Quoting Martin Sourada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

  

Hi again,

I made the icons for 16x16, 24x24 and 48x48 sizes and tried to follow
echo guidlines. I attach all. What do you think?




This go-home icon looks odd because it looks out of place in echo world. It will
on kids theme IMHO.
I suggest to take a look on user-home icon from echo so you can get some ideas.

  




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Re: go-home echo icon concept

2007-02-14 Thread Luya Tshimbalanga
Quoting Martin Sourada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi again,
>
> I made the icons for 16x16, 24x24 and 48x48 sizes and tried to follow
> echo guidlines. I attach all. What do you think?
>

This go-home icon looks odd because it looks out of place in echo world. It will
on kids theme IMHO.
I suggest to take a look on user-home icon from echo so you can get some ideas.

-- 
Luya Tshimbalanga
Fedora Project contributor
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LuyaTshimbalanga

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