Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 01:03:01AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > Wrong list and a week late[1]. No need to continue the old discussion here. > > [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2009-October/msg00110.html I don't think so. Not willing to put words in Jeff's mouth, but I don't think he was discussing the UI changes of Thunderbird. I took it as he was rather discussing the upgrade process within Fedora. FWIW, I felt the disruption in my workflow as well. All of a sudden, TB almost freezed my computer, eating ~ 1GB of memory (OK, I have a lot of emails but still) and all that, in F-11 which is a stable version of the distro. I think this is the right forum to discuss how we can avoid or a least manage users workflow disruption within stable versions of our distro. -- Dodji Seketeli Red Hat, Inc. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 02:11 PM, Dodji Seketeli wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 01:03:01AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: >> Wrong list and a week late[1]. No need to continue the old discussion here. >> >> [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2009-October/msg00110.html > > I don't think so. Not willing to put words in Jeff's mouth, but I don't > think he was discussing the UI changes of Thunderbird. I took it as he was > rather > discussing the upgrade process within Fedora. It is a bit of both really. A single update causes the folders to move around because "smart folders" was suddenly enabled and that UI change is very disruptive. It took some time to figure out what the heck was happening. The second problem was that thunderbird started indexing all my mails all of a sudden and again, that is a dirsuption because it essentially makes the mail client unusable for quite sometime. It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 04:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. Precisely. F11 is supposed to be a stable release. The sudden appearance of both smart folders and indexing was unexpected, disruptive and IMO did not achieve the desired quality level for a Fedora stable release upgrade. Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Development packages for Thunderbird/Sunbird
The best would be to file a bug against both thunderbird and sunbird and kindly state what you would need for building blueZync. Thanks for the hint. Bugs filed: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528320 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528321 If you as the developer did that, that would be great. As soon as the development files are available I'd be glad working with you on getting blueZync into Fedora. I did start a packaging effort some time ago and caused a little disaster by updating libsyncml to a newer version to build blueZync. Our problem was that nothing else could be built against the new version of libsyncml. blueZync requires the newest versions of opensync, libsyncml, and libwbxml. Those are not production ready yet. So I think it is too early to include those (and hence blueZync) as official packages now. However with the *bird-devel packages, it would be simple to compile from source (as we do on Ubuntu and others). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 11:16 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On 10/11/2009 04:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. Precisely. F11 is supposed to be a stable release. The sudden appearance of both smart folders and indexing was unexpected, disruptive and IMO did not achieve the desired quality level for a Fedora stable release upgrade. Jeff There is a difference between stable and static, if we have a beta of thunderbird in F11, then it expected to change between beta releases. The new search features are very cool, we should be happy someone uses the time to give us all this cool new features. Tim -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:29:19AM +0200, Tim Lauridsen wrote: > There is a difference between stable and static, if we have a beta of > thunderbird in F11, then it expected to change between beta releases. Sure. But at the same time the word "stable" in the expression "stable version" ought to mean something, I guess. My point is this is a matter of personal judgement. If the change is going to be "too" disruptive (and that's a maintainer call) then maybe having a "Fedora-blessed" repository like this great one http://rpms.famillecollet.com/fedora/11/remi/x86_64/repoview could be a possible way to go. At the same time, the package could be updated straight to Rawhide, of course. > The new search features are very cool, we should be happy someone uses > the time to give us all this cool new features. I was not discussing that. Those changes are cool. I agree. But we also have to take in account the drawbacks that come with that coolness and strike a balance so that stable distro users aren't too disrupted in their workflows. -- Dodji Seketeli Red Hat -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 11:29 AM, Tim Lauridsen wrote: On 10/11/2009 11:16 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On 10/11/2009 04:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. Precisely. F11 is supposed to be a stable release. The sudden appearance of both smart folders and indexing was unexpected, disruptive and IMO did not achieve the desired quality level for a Fedora stable release upgrade. ACK, but ... There is a difference between stable and static, if we have a beta of > thunderbird in F11, then it expected to change between beta releases. ... to me, in this context "stable" should also imply "sufficently "functional" rsp. "near release quality". From my experiences with the thunderbird-3*betas in F11, this does not apply to any of the thunderbird we had in F11 [1]. The new search features are very cool, we should be happy someone uses the time to give us all this cool new features. Well, "coolness" is relative - It's a "feature", I have never missed or been waiting for :-) Ralf [1] I have been (and still am) facing: Corrupted (imap) mail-indices, mal-formated subject lines, being unable to send non-base64 encoded attachments, sth. occasionally producing duplicate mails and several other nuisances (e.g. one core dump at average per day). New with 3*b4: A significant slowdown, seemingly due to indexing at startup, "compacting folders" triggers warnings in deep imap-folders (used to work with older thunderbirds and still works with evolution). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Development packages for Thunderbird/Sunbird
Matej Cepl wrote: When you install xulrunner*devel what files you are missing? I miss all the interfaces specific to Thunderbird and Sunbird: Address book, Calendar, etc. Just one example: the whole /usr/include/thunderbird/addrbook directory with files like nsIAbDirectory.h and nsIAbCard.h /Henrik -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
rawhide report: 20091011 changes
Compose started at Sun Oct 11 06:15:06 UTC 2009 Broken deps for i386 -- sugar-toolkit-0.86.0-1.fc12.i686 requires python-json Broken deps for x86_64 -- sugar-toolkit-0.86.0-1.fc12.x86_64 requires python-json Broken deps for ppc -- sugar-toolkit-0.86.0-1.fc12.ppc requires python-json Broken deps for ppc64 -- python-mwlib-0.11.2-3.20090522hg2956.fc12.ppc64 requires LabPlot sugar-toolkit-0.86.0-1.fc12.ppc64 requires python-json Updated Packages: NetworkManager-openvpn-0.7.996-4.git20090923.fc12 - * Mon Oct 05 2009 Dan Williams - 1:0.7.996-4.git20090923 - Rebuild for updated NetworkManager NetworkManager-vpnc-0.7.996-4.git20090921.fc12 -- * Sat Oct 03 2009 Matthias Clasen - 1:0.7.996-4 - Rebuild for updated NetworkManager anaconda-12.36-1.fc12 - * Fri Oct 09 2009 David Cantrell - 12.36-1 - Reset PartitionDevice attributes after failed edit. (#498026) (dlehman) - Fix cut/paste error in commit 299519d4a0693330ff6a50f3111d61feefabb0da. (dlehman) - Consider encryption when checking for duplicate mountpoint. (#526697) (dlehman) - Fix filtering out of 'Sending translation for' log messages in bumpver. (rvykydal) - Use addUdevPartitionDevice() for adding dmraid / multipath partitions (#527785) (hdegoede) - Set partedPartition system to the correct FS when creating an FS (hdegoede) - Reset parted flags in createFormat not destroyFormat (hdegoede) - Default to mbr bootloader target for mdraid 1 boot device too (#526822). (rvykydal) - Clear out state before calling XkbGetState. (clumens) control-center-2.28.0-16.fc12 - * Fri Oct 09 2009 Matthias Clasen 2.28.0-16 - Cosmetic change to the background tab in the appearance capplet exo-0.3.104-1.fc12 -- * Sat Oct 10 2009 Christoph Wickert - 0.3.103-1 - Update to 0.3.103 - Drop patches for URL quoting and default mount options (fixed upstream) - Revert useless touch -r trick * Sat Oct 10 2009 Christoph Wickert - 0.3.103-2 - Disable parallel make due to multilib conflicts. * Sat Oct 10 2009 Christoph Wickert - 0.3.104-1 - Update to 0.3.104 kde-l10n-4.3.2-1.fc12 - * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 * Sat Oct 03 2009 Rex Dieter - 4.3.1-3 - main virtual subpkg kdeaccessibility-4.3.2-1.fc12 - * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdeadmin-4.3.2-1.fc12 - * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdeartwork-4.3.2-1.fc12 --- * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdebase-4.3.2-3.fc12 * Fri Oct 09 2009 Kevin Kofler - 4.3.2-3 - backport upstream patch for bookmark editor drag&drop crash (kde#160679) * Wed Oct 07 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-2 - fix Dolphin crash (regression) * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdebase-runtime-4.3.2-2.fc12 * Tue Oct 06 2009 Rex Dieter 4.3.2-2 - BR: bzip2-devel xz-devel - -libs: move Requires: kdepimlibs... here * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 * Wed Sep 30 2009 Nils Philippsen - 4.3.1-3 - if available, use the "manpath" command in the man kioslave to determine man page file locations * Wed Sep 30 2009 Nils Philippsen - 4.3.1-4 - fix manpath patch (spotted by Kevin Kofler) kdebase-workspace-4.3.2-1.fc12 -- * Sun Oct 04 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdebindings-4.3.2-1.fc12 * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdeedu-4.3.2-1.fc12 --- * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdegames-4.3.2-1.fc12 - * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdegraphics-4.3.2-3.fc12 * Thu Oct 08 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-2 - rhel cleanup * Thu Oct 08 2009 Rex Dieter - 4.3.2-3 - okular does not handle escaped URL correctly (kde#207461) * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdelibs-4.3.2-3.fc12 * Thu Oct 08 2009 Rex Dieter - 4.3.2-3 - khtml kpart crasher (kde #207173/209876) * Wed Oct 07 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-2 - fix a deadlock in KLocale * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdelibs-experimental-4.3.2-1.fc12 - * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdemultimedia-4.3.2-1.fc12 -- * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-1 - 4.3.2 kdenetwork-4.3.2-3.fc12 --- * Fri Oct 09 2009 Kevin Kofler - 4.3.2-3 - fix BR to be on kdelibs-experimental-devel, not kdelibs-experimental * Wed Oct 07 2009 Than Ngo - 4.3.2-2 - enable jingle * Mon Oct 05 2009 Than Ngo -
Re: libprojectM Packaging Problem
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Mamoru Tasaka wrote: > Jameson wrote, at 10/11/2009 06:37 AM +9:00: >> >> I'm having trouble getting the new version of libprojectM packaged, >> and hope someone can shed some light on this for me. > > Would you upload the srpm you are trying somewhere? My current attempt at their SVN code can be found at: http://www.vtscrew.com/libprojectM-1.2.0r1295-9.fc11.src.rpm Thanks, =-Jameson -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: libprojectM Packaging Problem
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:33:12 -0400, Jameson wrote:
> My current attempt at their SVN code can be found at:
> http://www.vtscrew.com/libprojectM-1.2.0r1295-9.fc11.src.rpm
Patch attached. Do the same for any other directories where it may be
necessary.
diff -Nur libprojectM-1.2.0r1295-orig/Renderer/CMakeLists.txt libprojectM-1.2.0r1295/Renderer/CMakeLists.txt
--- libprojectM-1.2.0r1295-orig/Renderer/CMakeLists.txt 2009-10-10 22:48:12.0 +0200
+++ libprojectM-1.2.0r1295/Renderer/CMakeLists.txt 2009-10-11 15:59:48.447688896 +0200
@@ -7,8 +7,8 @@
Filters.cpp PerlinNoise.cpp PipelineContext.cpp Renderable.cpp BeatDetect.cpp Shader.cpp TextureManager.cpp VideoEcho.cpp
RenderItemDistanceMetric.cpp RenderItemMatcher.cpp ${SOIL_SOURCES})
-SET (CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS ${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS} -fPIC)
-SET (CMAKE_C_FLAGS ${CMAKE_C_FLAGS} -fPIC)
+SET (CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS} -fPIC")
+SET (CMAKE_C_FLAGS "${CMAKE_C_FLAGS} -fPIC")
INCLUDE_DIRECTORIES(${projectM_SOURCE_DIR})
ADD_LIBRARY(Renderer STATIC ${Renderer_SOURCES})
--
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Re: libprojectM Packaging Problem
I see. Thanks for your quick reply. Upstream has been working with me recently to get this building natively without some patches that were needed in the past, so I'll pass this along. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
There are several issues being discussed here. Thunderbird itself and what upstream are doing: (i) In my view smart folders are silly most of the time. Comixing different accounts is a really bad idea. (ii) GLODA = the global indexing nonsense is beyond silly This is not just indexing each account - its accross ALL accounts. Especially when you note that it will only index things that TB has a local copy of in mbox format - and TB switched to make local copies of everything by default. This is a solution looking for a problem - its also a problematic solution for most, with runaway indexing, 90% CPU, eating GiB of space etc. A good example of a runaway idea. I run a local imap server precisely to be independent of mail client. Having duplicate copies of everything in mbox format (ug) and GiB of index .. ug. Upgrade Process: --- I believe we should be picking up the newer versions - in fact moving to 3.0pre and 3.0 final. TB has quirks, but overall things are improving. We still have evo too .. That all said - both the above changes are simple to turn off - and as Rahul said, prolly shoulda been off by default in our version. In this case there is an easy way to make things smooth. In other cases there may not be For such cases we can: a) Not update b) Update c) Install as alternative for those who want it. (c) is a nice possible option if something is invasive yet of interest. gene/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
Le Dim 11 octobre 2009 16:48, Mail Lists a écrit : > This is not just indexing each account - its accross ALL accounts. > Especially when you note that it will only index things that TB > has a local copy of in mbox format - and TB switched to make local > copies of everything by default. It is nice to see that the “reborn” Mozilla mail client still thinks in terms of pop3+mbox. This is sooo typical of the FLOSS desktop: avoid hard issues (such as thinking in maildir+imap, actually writing a ldap backend for gconf, taking the time to think about non-laptop systems), and pile up demo-quality bling (that no one will use because it's not robust enough for real life) There are three schools of design: the latin flashy-but-will-be-broken-in-a-week, the German just-enough-minimalist-rock-solid-workhorse, and the worst insufficient-minimalist-will-be-broken-in-a-month (people that think Germans like black, and release gadgets in brittle plastic, when Germans like solid plastic, which is usually black). Unfortunately our desktop people never seem to choose option 2. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
Le Dim 11 octobre 2009 18:02, Nicolas Mailhot a écrit : > There are three schools of design: […]. Unfortunately our desktop people never seem > to choose option 2. Sorry about the unfair generalization, there are of course exceptions http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/slides/Paul-Davis-lpc2009.pdf But it's sad they are so few. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 03:41 AM, Dodji Seketeli wrote: I don't think so. Not willing to put words in Jeff's mouth, but I don't think he was discussing the UI changes of Thunderbird. I took it as he was rather discussing the upgrade process within Fedora. So never ship beta software? That nixes a lot of Fedora packages. FWIW, I felt the disruption in my workflow as well. All of a sudden, TB almost freezed my computer, eating ~ 1GB of memory (OK, I have a lot of emails but still) and all that, in F-11 which is a stable version of the distro. I think this is the right forum to discuss how we can avoid or a least manage users workflow disruption within stable versions of our distro. Heavily patch all TB 3.0 to act like TB 2.0? That seems silly, don't you think? This is *not* the right forum. There is a right forum[1]. [1] http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html#dev-apps-thunderbird -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 09:45 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > So never ship beta software? That nixes a lot of Fedora packages. Whether to include a beta or not should be decided on a case by case basis. It is a good idea to avoid those but if there are substantial benefits, it is fine. The focal point of the discussion isn't what it originally include but how the software changes in updates. Do you use thunderbird as your main mail client? If so, did you find the changes in the update not disruptive for you? > Heavily patch all TB 3.0 to act like TB 2.0? That seems silly, don't you > think? > > This is *not* the right forum. There is a right forum[1]. > > [1] > http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html#dev-apps-thunderbird We aren't talking about upstream development however. It is the responsibility of the thunderbird package maintainers in Fedora to avoid updates that prevents the mail client from being usable for a substantial amount of time and changes the UI in a unexplained way. The modifications required to avoid those would have been rather simple. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
Rahul Sundaram, Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:24:53 +0530: > It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't > cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then > it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by > default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. Rahul, aren't you arguing that Rawhide is broken? Matěj -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 11:19 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Whether to include a beta or not should be decided on a case by case basis. It is a good idea to avoid those but if there are substantial benefits, it is fine. The focal point of the discussion isn't what it originally include but how the software changes in updates. Do you use thunderbird as your main mail client? If so, did you find the changes in the update not disruptive for you? I do use TB (read my email headers). I fully understood that TB 3.0 was in beta and could drastically change at any moment. I keep track of their development as well so I was prepared for the changes that have happened. If you expect beta software to act like stable software then you need to update your dictionary. We aren't talking about upstream development however. It is the responsibility of the thunderbird package maintainers in Fedora to avoid updates that prevents the mail client from being usable for a substantial amount of time and changes the UI in a unexplained way. The modifications required to avoid those would have been rather simple. The TB 3.0 updates have been sitting in updates-testing for at least a week or so before they are released into updates. The karma being received has been overwhelmingly *positive* so it's one or two conservative folks that really dislike change that voice their opinions and get some attention for the sake of attention. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 10:02 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > Rahul Sundaram, Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:24:53 +0530: >> It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't >> cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then >> it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by >> default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. > > Rahul, aren't you arguing that Rawhide is broken? I don't see where I am arguing for that. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
Matej Cepl, Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:32:26 +: > Rahul Sundaram, Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:24:53 +0530: >> It was ok to ship a "beta" release of thunderbird but updates shouldn't >> cause such issues. If the fixes were necessary to push as updates then >> it would have prudent to disable "smart folders" and "indexing" by >> default and leave it enabled in Fedora 12. > > Rahul, aren't you arguing that Rawhide is broken? Sorry, misread your message. Forget about this please. Matěj -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
python-json (was: Re: rawhide report: 20091010 changes)
Rawhide Report wrote: > Removed package python-json Why was this removed? sugar-toolkit requires this package and now has broken dependencies! Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 10:03 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > I do use TB (read my email headers). I fully understood that TB 3.0 was > in beta and could drastically change at any moment. I keep track of > their development as well so I was prepared for the changes that have > happened. If you expect beta software to act like stable software then > you need to update your dictionary. Oh please. Expecting all Fedora thunderbird users to keep track of upstream development of software included in Fedora is totally ridiculous. The package maintainer made the judgement to include a beta release of thunderbird. If major UI or other behaviour changes were expected to follow in later revisions, it would have been wise to not include the beta release in the first place. Otherwise, it would have been easy enough to disable those couple of features we are talking about in the update and avoid the hassle for users. It is NOT ok if I update my mail client in any stable release of Fedora and get a different UI where my folders are rearranged and my mail client proceeds to index gigabytes of my mail sucking up the CPU and generally making it unusable for quite sometime. A new release with a new UI and behaviour is ok. An update changing it like this is definitely not. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: python-json (was: Re: rawhide report: 20091010 changes)
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Rawhide Report wrote: >> Removed package python-json > > Why was this removed? sugar-toolkit requires this package and now has broken > dependencies! Apparently the functionality has been merged into the main python package. Looking at the cvs changelog sugar-toolkit was rebuilt against the main package but it seems that the person that did so hasn't filed a ticket with rel-eng to get it tagged into the release, or if the ticket was filed it is yet to be tagged into the release. Peter -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 11:46 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Oh please. Expecting all Fedora thunderbird users to keep track of upstream development of software included in Fedora is totally ridiculous. The package maintainer made the judgement to include a beta release of thunderbird. If major UI or other behaviour changes were expected to follow in later revisions, it would have been wise to not include the beta release in the first place. Otherwise, it would have been easy enough to disable those couple of features we are talking about in the update and avoid the hassle for users. Did I say that people should do exactly as I do? No. Please don't put words in my mouth. It is NOT ok if I update my mail client in any stable release of Fedora and get a different UI where my folders are rearranged and my mail client proceeds to index gigabytes of my mail sucking up the CPU and generally making it unusable for quite sometime. A new release with a new UI and behaviour is ok. An update changing it like this is definitely not. Then were was your negative karma? I run TB on 3 different machines (different platforms/arches) and have not encountered any "disastrous" side effects so my positive karma does not accurately reflect all possible scenarios. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
On 10/11/2009 10:24 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > Did I say that people should do exactly as I do? No. Please don't put > words in my mouth. It did clearly appear that you implied that. To simplify matters, the basic question really is whether it is ok for updates to cause problems for end users. I would argue that it is not > Then were was your negative karma? I run TB on 3 different machines > (different platforms/arches) and have not encountered any "disastrous" > side effects so my positive karma does not accurately reflect all > possible scenarios. If maintainers choose to include a beta release, then it would have been better to collect more feedback for a longer period of time for updates. My mails to this list is my "negative karma". Other users have confirmed that there are problems as well. Let's address that issue now instead of pretending that there is no problem. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: python-json (was: Re: rawhide report: 20091010 changes)
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Rawhide Report wrote: >>> Removed package python-json >> >> Why was this removed? sugar-toolkit requires this package and now has broken >> dependencies! > > Apparently the functionality has been merged into the main python > package. Looking at the cvs changelog sugar-toolkit was rebuilt > against the main package but it seems that the person that did so > hasn't filed a ticket with rel-eng to get it tagged into the release, > or if the ticket was filed it is yet to be tagged into the release. There's also a rel-eng to get the build tagged into the release here https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/2447 Peter -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: thunderbird upgrade - wtf?
Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 10/11/2009 10:24 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Did I say that people should do exactly as I do? No. Please don't put words in my mouth. It did clearly appear that you implied that. To simplify matters, the basic question really is whether it is ok for updates to cause problems for end users. I would argue that it is not True, I read this as "users should know thunderbird is apt to change at any second so they should be keeping track of thunderbird". It is unreasonable to expect all users to be aware of Thunderbird's volatile state, especially when every past update has done little to change the overall feel of the program (minus the ugly new icons). Not everyone using a Fedora desktop is keeping track of what's going on in the development community. They just want to sit down at their computer and get their work done. These kinds of people sat at their computer one day, saw the PackageKit icon, and (maybe blindly) clicked Update. Then they were greeted by Thunderbird taking the liberty of re-arranging their entire folder hierarchy and hammering the hard drive for quite some time, making the computer totally unusable while the user is trying to figure out what the heck is going on. It's a very alarming experience when all you want is your inbox. I know it took me quite a while to figure out where my mail went, and why my inbox subfolders were nowhere near my inboxes anymore. At the very least, Smart Folders should not have been made the default view. The indexing is also much too aggressive (especially on my poor 5 year old laptop), but I'm not sure how much the Fedora packagers can tweak that feature. Then were was your negative karma? I run TB on 3 different machines (different platforms/arches) and have not encountered any "disastrous" side effects so my positive karma does not accurately reflect all possible scenarios. If maintainers choose to include a beta release, then it would have been better to collect more feedback for a longer period of time for updates. My mails to this list is my "negative karma". Other users have confirmed that there are problems as well. Let's address that issue now instead of pretending that there is no problem. Rahul Yes, the fact that an email with subject "thunderbird upgrade - wtf?" has already reached 20 or so replies in 12 hours could be construed as a sign of "negative karma." Rich -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
