Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:17:07 -0400, Jeremy wrote: [1] So, the gory history for those who might be interested. Eight years ago (!), we decided that the advantage of not having to rerun lilo after changing the config file as you can just read the config file off the filesystem with grub was worthwhile. Why is GRUB reinstalled with every kernel update then? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Thursday, June 11 2009, Michael Schwendt said: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:17:07 -0400, Jeremy wrote: [1] So, the gory history for those who might be interested. Eight years ago (!), we decided that the advantage of not having to rerun lilo after changing the config file as you can just read the config file off the filesystem with grub was worthwhile. Why is GRUB reinstalled with every kernel update then? It's not. grubby is run, but that's just a tool that modifies your grub.conf to reflect the new kernel that's been installed Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Matthew Garrett m...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 05:03:56PM -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, not necessarily Mac OS X itself. Wouldn't the Darwin kernel require it anyway? I have been installing Chameleon so I could boot the regular Darwin kernel and userland because I was told I needed a form of EFI to use the Darwin kernel. The Darwin kernel runs absolutely fine without EFI. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org Oh, thanks. Then I guess I don't need that... That makes my life a lot easier. It is quite difficult to install chameleon without a Darwin system already on hand, and I cringe every time I have to do it... -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Michal Nowak mno...@redhat.com wrote: Just noticed Canonical is pushing GRUB 2 as default in Ubuntu 9.10 [1]. There are some hints on testing [2] and from what I can see there are 40 bugs opened against GRUB 2 in launchpad [3] v. zero in our Bugzilla. Was wondering what's the plan for Fedora and GRUB 2 as I can see there's quite old snapshot in current Rawhide -- 1.98-0.5.20080827svn.fc11. -- [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-June/000573.html [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Grub2Testing [3] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list I would like to see GRUB Legacy replaced in Fedora 12 with GRUB 2, especially with a couple odd systems here that don't seem to like GRUB Legacy all that much -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On 06/10/2009 10:43 AM, Christopher Brown wrote: 2009/6/10 King InuYashangomp...@gmail.com: I would like to see GRUB Legacy replaced in Fedora 12 with GRUB 2, especially with a couple odd systems here that don't seem to like GRUB Legacy all that much Actually the reverse is true, in that you will find that GRUB 2 will support fewer machines than GRUB Legacy. This is why, as the ubuntu page quite correctly states, upgrading a bootloader is at best frightening and risky. So what is the deal with GRUB development? I find it strange that upstream already has declared the old GRUB Legacy even though GRUB 2 isn't ready for prime time yet. Has the patch for full ext4 support that has been mentioned before landed in upstream yet? What is the timetable to get GRUB 2 ready for primetime? Regards, Dennis -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Christopher Brown snecklif...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/6/10 King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com: I would like to see GRUB Legacy replaced in Fedora 12 with GRUB 2, especially with a couple odd systems here that don't seem to like GRUB Legacy all that much Actually the reverse is true, in that you will find that GRUB 2 will support fewer machines than GRUB Legacy. This is why, as the ubuntu page quite correctly states, upgrading a bootloader is at best frightening and risky. -- Christopher Brown -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list While that is true, I have already seen two of my machines unable to boot through GRUB Legacy that could through GRUB 2. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Dennis J. denni...@conversis.de wrote: On 06/10/2009 10:43 AM, Christopher Brown wrote: 2009/6/10 King InuYashangomp...@gmail.com: I would like to see GRUB Legacy replaced in Fedora 12 with GRUB 2, especially with a couple odd systems here that don't seem to like GRUB Legacy all that much Actually the reverse is true, in that you will find that GRUB 2 will support fewer machines than GRUB Legacy. This is why, as the ubuntu page quite correctly states, upgrading a bootloader is at best frightening and risky. So what is the deal with GRUB development? I find it strange that upstream already has declared the old GRUB Legacy even though GRUB 2 isn't ready for prime time yet. Has the patch for full ext4 support that has been mentioned before landed in upstream yet? What is the timetable to get GRUB 2 ready for primetime? Regards, Dennis -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:07 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 The grub we're already shipping has EFI support. I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Adam Jacksona...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:07 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 The grub we're already shipping has EFI support. I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. the version number ;) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
drago01 wrote: I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. the version number ;) A better argument than you'd think. The number itself is no big deal, but the fact that upstream is a hollow void in the universe certainly troubles users looking for support. I seriously doubt grub 2 is the right fix for that, but it'd be nice to not have the distro leaning on a boot loader that everyone swears is dead code. --CJD -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 18:41 +0200, Dennis J. wrote: If that's the case then it obviously makes sense to stick with grub legacy but given it's status who is going to be upstream for this? What I fear is a similar situation like we had with rpm where nobody really took ownership and vendors carried their own individual patches wich doesn't really work well with fedoras stay close to upstream mantra. For better or worse, we are effectively running a grub fork, and I see very little desire to change that... -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
2009/6/10 Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 18:41 +0200, Dennis J. wrote: If that's the case then it obviously makes sense to stick with grub legacy but given it's status who is going to be upstream for this? What I fear is a similar situation like we had with rpm where nobody really took ownership and vendors carried their own individual patches wich doesn't really work well with fedoras stay close to upstream mantra. For better or worse, we are effectively running a grub fork, and I see very little desire to change that... Is extlinux worth considering as a replacement? I know Foresight has gone that road. Jonathan (who knows nothing about bootloaders). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On 06/10/2009 12:05 PM, King InuYasha wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Christopher Brown snecklif...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/6/10 King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com: I would like to see GRUB Legacy replaced in Fedora 12 with GRUB 2, especially with a couple odd systems here that don't seem to like GRUB Legacy all that much Actually the reverse is true, in that you will find that GRUB 2 will support fewer machines than GRUB Legacy. This is why, as the ubuntu page quite correctly states, upgrading a bootloader is at best frightening and risky. -- Christopher Brown -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list While that is true, I have already seen two of my machines unable to boot through GRUB Legacy that could through GRUB 2. Bug numbers? -- Peter In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey. -- Beck -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:41:55PM +0200, Dennis J. wrote: [..] with fedoras stay close to upstream mantra. I'm glad somebody said it. Can someone summarise what the problems are with GRUB2? Rich. -- Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat http://et.redhat.com/~rjones virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc. http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Dennis J. denni...@conversis.de wrote: On 06/10/2009 06:36 PM, Adam Jackson wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:07 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 The grub we're already shipping has EFI support. I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. If that's the case then it obviously makes sense to stick with grub legacy but given it's status who is going to be upstream for this? What I fear is a similar situation like we had with rpm where nobody really took ownership and vendors carried their own individual patches wich doesn't really work well with fedoras stay close to upstream mantra. Regards, Dennis We are already in that position. However, with Ubuntu's apparent willingness to test and see if GRUB 2 is worthy of being used in Ubuntu 9.10, other distros may actually do so as well. Perhaps Fedora should do a test day or something after figuring out what features we need our boot loader to actually support and if GRUB 2 would fulfill the requirements. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wednesday, June 10 2009, King InuYasha said: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:07 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 The grub we're already shipping has EFI support. I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. EFI support is not the same as fake-EFI. Erm, the EFI support in our grub today isn't fake-EFI. Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On 06/10/2009 05:17 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: On Wednesday, June 10 2009, King InuYasha said: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:07 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: Well, the existing GRUB used in distros was declared Legacy a long time ago. GRUB 2 is a rewrite that is supposed to include all the features the various vendors have been patching into GRUB Legacy, as well as being able to support EFI and basically supporting what the Chameleon bootloader does in addition to the GRUB Legacy's support. Though I doubt fake-EFI would be implemented in GRUB 2 The grub we're already shipping has EFI support. I have yet to hear of a problem we're actually having that would be solved with grub2. EFI support is not the same as fake-EFI. Erm, the EFI support in our grub today isn't fake-EFI. I think he's referring to a Chameleon feature. -- Peter Space, is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. -- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 15:13 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: EFI support is not the same as fake-EFI. Your mail client has atrociously bad indentation. Fix it. It appears from light googling that what you mean by fake EFI is a boot loader that fakes enough of EFI to be able to boot OSX on a non-Apple machine. I wasn't aware it was a goal of the Fedora project to enable you to boot some _other_ OS on arbitrary hardware, when the license of that other OS expressly forbids you from doing so. - ajax -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list Well, not necessarily Mac OS X itself. Wouldn't the Darwin kernel require it anyway? I have been installing Chameleon so I could boot the regular Darwin kernel and userland because I was told I needed a form of EFI to use the Darwin kernel. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
Jeremy Katz wrote: I need to sit down and figure out where [grub2] is in the realm of capability vs our grub[1] these days, but just haven't had enough round 'tuits. Next year (2010) is the year for new harddrives with a hardware sector size of 4096 bytes instead of 512. All boot loaders will have a fun time! -- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 17:17:07 -0400, Jeremy Katz ka...@redhat.com wrote: we've been left in a position of maintaining it and we've added some real features that have been needed along the way as grub 2's progress has been slow at best and some of the design decisions early on were a I was watching them for a while to see if was something I wanted to try and after the project went several months with no apparent commits, I figured this was something I probably didn't want to play with. Depending on grub2 to have active development seems a bit risky to me. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
GRUB 2 in Ubuntu 9.10
Just noticed Canonical is pushing GRUB 2 as default in Ubuntu 9.10 [1]. There are some hints on testing [2] and from what I can see there are 40 bugs opened against GRUB 2 in launchpad [3] v. zero in our Bugzilla. Was wondering what's the plan for Fedora and GRUB 2 as I can see there's quite old snapshot in current Rawhide -- 1.98-0.5.20080827svn.fc11. -- [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-June/000573.html [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Grub2Testing [3] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
