Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
tor 2009-12-17 klockan 22:08 +0100 skrev nodata: I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It would be so much easier. You can easily accomplish this by quoting only the necessary text of the parent post and commenting between the lines. My Evolution preview window shows 38 lines of text. When _all_ of those are quoted text, the person who sent that mail did something wrong. (I'm not picking on you specifically, I think it's a general problem on this list.) Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue all you want, it's true. Like has been pointed out before, Fedora does not force a reboot at all. All it does is show an icon in the corner, telling me I need to log out or I need to reboot. It could gain more options, like need to restart Firefox. Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage. ksplice can patch a running kernel... I want suspend and resume with a new kernel. Also, ponies. :) /abo -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
tor 2009-12-17 klockan 20:21 + skrev Ewan Mac Mahon: Simply killing the process is actually less disruptive. Yes. Please do not send close events to my Firefox windows. Do keep in mind that Firefox is pretty much broken and might not even be able to show a Do you want to restart? dialog by the time the RPM transaction is rolling, so if it's going to involve user interaction, that will have to happen in the PackageKit GUI. Another option is to make Firefox notice internally how broken it is and try to restart itself. It would need to somehow wait until the transaction is done, though. /abo -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Otto Haliburton wrote: Windows now restarts each time a patch occurs, at the current time I can't think of any patch in the last 3 months which hasn't required a reboot. Another reason is that some of the windows operating systems are coming to their end of life cycle, and windows is choosing to do a lot of patches in one update, but believe me, it is startling to come in the next morning to see your computer restarted with a message that a update was performed and you were restarted and that occurs with all of the windows operating systems that are currently supported. Please be consistent. Windows also doesn't *have* to auto restart. My systems are set to manual update of predownloaded files. Besides, since my systems are dual (or more) boot, they wouldn't auto reboot into the running version of windows. Would be very annoying. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of shmuel siegel Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 02:07 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Otto Haliburton wrote: Windows now restarts each time a patch occurs, at the current time I can't think of any patch in the last 3 months which hasn't required a reboot. Another reason is that some of the windows operating systems are coming to their end of life cycle, and windows is choosing to do a lot of patches in one update, but believe me, it is startling to come in the next morning to see your computer restarted with a message that a update was performed and you were restarted and that occurs with all of the windows operating systems that are currently supported. Please be consistent. Windows also doesn't *have* to auto restart. My systems are set to manual update of predownloaded files. Besides, since my systems are dual (or more) boot, they wouldn't auto reboot into the running version of windows. Would be very annoying. you don't follow the list very well, and obviously didn't read the post that this replies to so don't go around calling people inconsistent. Windows forces you to reboot and there is no mandatory reboots in Linux and windows does force you to restart, don't restart when it ask you and see what happens, it will not continue without insisting that you restart. Where do you get this crap? With windows you cannot avoid a restart. And there is no auto-restart in windows it is auto-update and with auto-update you have no choice it will restart for you. Try it then tell me about it. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 04:11 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: you don't follow the list very well, and obviously didn't read the post that this replies to so don't go around calling people inconsistent. Windows forces you to reboot and there is no mandatory reboots in Linux and windows does force you to restart, don't restart when it ask you and see what happens, it will not continue without insisting that you restart. Where do you get this crap? With windows you cannot avoid a restart. And there is no auto-restart in windows it is auto-update and with auto-update you have no choice it will restart for you. Try it then tell me about it. You're arguing from different starting points, and there's no need to be uncivil about it. Shmuel's point is that you can disable automatic updates on Windows (which is quite true), and hence you won't then be forced to restart until you manually choose to install the updates. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 01:01 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes- users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction because I know better instead of mandatory reboots? -jef No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users. Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This isn't a good thing. there are no mandatory reboots in PackageKit, you are notified what packages will cause a request to reboot and you can exit the process without rebooting!! Or you can remove the packages from the update processes and install when convenient for you. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
2009/12/16 Nathanael D. Noblet nathan...@gnat.ca: So basically, PK is designed for the non-experienced users, as such everything it does is dumbed down, and experienced users should just ignore it, using other tools to keep their system up to date. See http://www.packagekit.org/pk-profiles.html Richard. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton ottohalibur...@tx.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: nodata l...@nodata.co.uk To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. I don't like the term experienced user and I never feel comfortable adding myself to that group but anyway, - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using. - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using. There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a reboot but at least I think it's kind of unfair to compare it with an OS which pushes their updates just once a month. Just my € 0.02. -- With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Eelko Berkenpies http://blog.berkenpies.nl/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot - semi-off -topic response
On 12/17/2009 08:38 AM, Jon Masters wrote: On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 16:30 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote: too. My own preference would be a more discriminating dialog that offers three possibilities: 'do nothing', 'bounce the service/application' and 'reboot'. Yup, +1 Bounce the application would be really cool for eg firefox, thunderbird, that continue to work, but some things sort of don't (like new popups dont open and so forth). In doing so the application would need to return to the identical locations, arrangements that it was bounced from. And really, the above shouldn't be difficult for a computer to do: - have window, pos,size, doc open, caret position and so on, even those pesky web forms with unsubmitted data and so on. Make it part of the freedesktop standards - an app forcibly closed or ?disappears shall reopen as if nothing changed ! (although firefox multi-tab and working out which tab not to reopen after a crash is a good game). Make open documents files etc, be always stored immediately on change with snapshots at each save to disk, few minutes of operation etc. Make it like paper, but actually better, you know: what is written on paper doesn't mysteriously disappear when an update or a power failure, or app crash occurs, nor does it disappear from where you left it. I think the above scenario for user apps would seem to be a reasonable goal. On the other hand, services are not so clear cut. If I'm an external user logged into the web service, filling a form, I don't expect even momentary downtime to cause me to lose information I'm entering, or corrupt a file I have open / editing on network share (though see the works better than paper description). In the first example, would it make sense for the web server to start all new processes using the new updated code, while existing users stay connected to the existing instance, until these timeout/logout and no user's connection is using the old code. When a reboot is really needed, a PK dialog could inform of the need, and ask when that could occur (do at 4:30 am tueday morning) ps: did gnome desktop regain the feature of autologin and rerun apps on desktop capability of pre f-10 ? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton ottohalibur...@tx.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: nodata l...@nodata.co.uk To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. I don't like the term experienced user and I never feel comfortable adding myself to that group but anyway, - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using. - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using. There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a reboot but at least I think it's kind of unfair to compare it with an OS which pushes their updates just once a month. Just my € 0.02. first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens -- With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Eelko Berkenpies http://blog.berkenpies.nl/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 08:50 +, Richard Hughes wrote: 2009/12/15 Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org: This exists? Can you point me to the code? I only finished this just this morning. It's just been pushed to git master. You want to see this commit http://cgit.freedesktop.org/packagekit/commit/?id=66d3fc26054abd528ee18017d9c67edb6400f239 for the juicy config bits. Looking at 3cb32ad40af3a38456e09baf1b29b046d82c587e, AIUI the commit with the code bits in it, I'm pretty sure you are now requiring filelists to be downloaded for all updates. The UI isn't very pretty at the moment (it just fails with an update error) but I'll work on something a little bit more user friendly. How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill() and get the user to restart? -- James Antill - ja...@fedoraproject.org http://yum.baseurl.org/wiki/releases http://yum.baseurl.org/wiki/whatsnew/3.2.25 http://yum.baseurl.org/wiki/YumMultipleMachineCaching -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Antill ja...@fedoraproject.org wrote: How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill() and get the user to restart? Trying to send a close button event to the app's windows is probably our best short-term approach; slightly longer term, we could have apps expose a standard interface for Quit (e.g. over dbus). Knowing how to restart is trickier, (though we could use the window-to-app mapping system we need for gnome 3 anyways) but it's also very simple in this case if we require that packages contain at most one .desktop file. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Thu, 2009-12-17 at 10:51 -0500, James Antill wrote: The UI isn't very pretty at the moment (it just fails with an update error) but I'll work on something a little bit more user friendly. How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill() and get the user to restart? If we're just talking about Firefox (i.e. not the general case), then it has its own 'restart Firefox' hook you might be able to access. It's used, for instance, when you enable or disable an extension. I'm not sure if you can poke it from an external app easily, though. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-17 10:36, schrieb Otto Haliburton: -Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 01:01 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes- users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction because I know better instead of mandatory reboots? -jef No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users. Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This isn't a good thing. there are no mandatory reboots in PackageKit, you are notified what packages will cause a request to reboot and you can exit the process without rebooting!! Or you can remove the packages from the update processes and install when convenient for you. yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/17/2009 01:50 PM, nodata wrote: yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now. +1, and remember that they have an advantage right off the bat: - much fewer subsystems (Windows and a couple of tiny apps, vs. Linux's entire universe of applications) - patch model that pushes large patch sets at long intervals rather than frequent fine-grained patches. I think Linux has to have a better heuristic as to when a reboot is necessary. Actually, any event that breaks the user's work flow is as bad: X crash/logoff is as disruptive as a reboot, unless we had a way to restore the application state in the way Firefox or Emacs or OpenOffice recover from crashes (restarting, opening the windows where they were and recovering the content). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Przemek Klosowski Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 13:05 To: fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On 12/17/2009 01:50 PM, nodata wrote: yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now. +1, and remember that they have an advantage right off the bat: - much fewer subsystems (Windows and a couple of tiny apps, vs. Linux's entire universe of applications) - patch model that pushes large patch sets at long intervals rather than frequent fine-grained patches. I think Linux has to have a better heuristic as to when a reboot is necessary. Actually, any event that breaks the user's work flow is as bad: X crash/logoff is as disruptive as a reboot, unless we had a way to restore the application state in the way Firefox or Emacs or OpenOffice recover from crashes (restarting, opening the windows where they were and recovering the content). I am now getting a picture of why this subject is so hard to grasp, everyone who is for fewer reboots address the issue on a task by task bases, while those who support reboots think of it on a system bases. Windows now restarts each time a patch occurs, at the current time I can't think of any patch in the last 3 months which hasn't required a reboot. Another reason is that some of the windows operating systems are coming to their end of life cycle, and windows is choosing to do a lot of patches in one update, but believe me, it is startling to come in the next morning to see your computer restarted with a message that a update was performed and you were restarted and that occurs with all of the windows operating systems that are currently supported. Linux has many applications that are running and on each update you can have as many as many as 65(the last update) task being updated each week and how you will avoid reboots will be amazing to me. I think then people will complain that it takes 6 hours to update now and it use to take 30 minutes. At the present time you have apps that run across logoff and login, so trying to get into starting and stopping task in update situations will be a nightmare, but if there are some ambitious people out there go at it, there are only 5000 apps that need to be updated to solve the problem. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:05:15PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Antill ja...@fedoraproject.org wrote: How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill() and get the user to restart? Trying to send a close button event to the app's windows is probably our best short-term approach; That would fail pretty badly in the case of Firefox with multiple windows open. Firefox's session support can restore multiple tabs to multiple windows if you quit it and restart, but if you have two windows open, close one, then close the second causing the browser to quit, then on restart the session that is restored will only contain the tabs from the second window. The logic goes that the first window was no longer part of the session when the app quit. Simply killing the process is actually less disruptive. Ewan pgpucZcTAZjFl.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Ewan Mac Mahon e...@macmahon.me.uk wrote: That would fail pretty badly in the case of Firefox with multiple windows open. True; there's nothing stopping us from adding something Firefox-specific as a short term measure, since how it does session saving is fairly unique right now (ideally we add a nice API for this to GTK+ which then has to be mirrored in XUL). Killing the process though has the downside of triggering the Well, that was embarassing... which is arguably a Firefox bug though. Anyways, the perfect is the enemy of the good, etc. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton: -Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton ottohalibur...@tx.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: nodatal...@nodata.co.uk To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. I don't like the term experienced user and I never feel comfortable adding myself to that group but anyway, - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using. - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using. There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a reboot but at least I think it's kind of unfair to compare it with an OS which pushes their updates just once a month. Just my € 0.02. first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens -- With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Eelko Berkenpies http://blog.berkenpies.nl/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It would be so much easier. Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue all you want, it's true. Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage. ksplice can patch a running kernel... -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 15:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton: -Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton ottohalibur...@tx.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: nodatal...@nodata.co.uk To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. I don't like the term experienced user and I never feel comfortable adding myself to that group but anyway, - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using. - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using. There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a reboot but at least I think it's kind of unfair to compare it with an OS which pushes their updates just once a month. Just my € 0.02. first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens -- With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Eelko Berkenpies http://blog.berkenpies.nl/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It would be so much easier. Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue all you want, it's true. I have three computers running windows XP Windows Vista and Windows Vista Premium 24 hours per day, I have 2 computers dedicated to Linux so I know what I am talking about. Windows is a commercial system, it gets paid for what it produces and so it would be nice for them to boot less, but now they reboot on every update and that is once a week generally on Tuesday. Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage. ksplice can patch a running kernel... If you really want that then you can design and use it yourself. I don't believe that anyone wants to patch a running Kernel especially without testing and not be able to recover the old kernel. Are you really thinking and considering the reasons for a reboot, #1 is simplicity!!! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 15:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton: -Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton ottohalibur...@tx.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: nodatal...@nodata.co.uk To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. I don't like the term experienced user and I never feel comfortable adding myself to that group but anyway, - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using. - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using. There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a reboot but at least I think it's kind of unfair to compare it with an OS which pushes their updates just once a month. Just my € 0.02. first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens -- With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Eelko Berkenpies http://blog.berkenpies.nl/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It would be so much easier. Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue all you want, it's true. Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage. ksplice can patch a running kernel... LOL, you have to be joking with all the stuff that blows up around here you would trust someone patch you kernel while it was running and especially if like me you run a custom built kernel. I applaud your trust and guts if you will stand for that. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Thu, 2009-12-17 at 22:08 +0100, nodata wrote: Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue all you want, it's true. It's entirely false, because Linux *never* requires a reboot. Fedora (not Linux, you are generalizing too far) *advises* reboots, it never requires them. Windows forces you to reboot - literally, you cannot prevent it from rebooting when it decides you have to. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
2009/12/15 Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org: This exists? Can you point me to the code? I only finished this just this morning. It's just been pushed to git master. You want to see this commit http://cgit.freedesktop.org/packagekit/commit/?id=66d3fc26054abd528ee18017d9c67edb6400f239 for the juicy config bits. The UI isn't very pretty at the moment (it just fails with an update error) but I'll work on something a little bit more user friendly. Richard. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
So again today, I see some updates two of which require a full system reboot. nfs-utils and ibus-rawcode. My system seriously needs to be shut down for those to be properly updated? This is what I don't get. nfs-utils never got a system reboot before, it doesn't get one on RHEL/Centos boxes... What requires a reboot here? Again, I don't want the tone of this email to come off as anger, rude or whatever, mainly I'm wondering why so many packages require a reboot, why isn't nfs-utils just restarting any services it has or that depend on it if needed? Is that not reliable? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: So again today, I see some updates two of which require a full system reboot. nfs-utils and ibus-rawcode. My system seriously needs to be shut down for those to be properly updated? This is what I don't get. nfs-utils never got a system reboot before, it doesn't get one on RHEL/Centos boxes... What requires a reboot here? Again, I don't want the tone of this email to come off as anger, rude or whatever, mainly I'm wondering why so many packages require a reboot, why isn't nfs-utils just restarting any services it has or that depend on it if needed? Is that not reliable? you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. I get what you're saying, and it's kindof a fair point, but there's also some utility to having the system automatically, proactively notify you of updates. -- Peter For some reason it has always seemed to me that the term software engineering contains some very optimistic assumptions about the nature of reality. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Peter Jones wrote: On 12/16/2009 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. I get what you're saying, and it's kindof a fair point, but there's also some utility to having the system automatically, proactively notify you of updates. And you can do that. Just don't have pk DO the update. There are lots of ways to get notifications of updates not using PK in the system. And again, we're not talking about for the default everyday user. we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Once upon a time, Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org said: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. It seems though that there is a problem with how the needs a reboot option is set (and if that is the case, it should be addressed). For example, in the nfs-utils case, what happened to having the %post scriptlet do service foo condrestart? Is it impossible to restart the daemons? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org said: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. It seems though that there is a problem with how the needs a reboot option is set (and if that is the case, it should be addressed). For example, in the nfs-utils case, what happened to having the %post scriptlet do service foo condrestart? Is it impossible to restart the daemons? well nfs restarts have never been likely to work if something is mounted iirc. but I'm not the nfs expert here - maybe steve dickson can better answer this. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 09:51 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Peter Jones wrote: On 12/16/2009 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. I get what you're saying, and it's kindof a fair point, but there's also some utility to having the system automatically, proactively notify you of updates. And you can do that. Just don't have pk DO the update. There are lots of ways to get notifications of updates not using PK in the system. And again, we're not talking about for the default everyday user. we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. yeah, I totally get what you mean. I just feel like there are more and more reboot requests because that is easier. Obviously I know when/if I need to reboot based on what I'm running. However I'm questioning the number of packages requesting a reboot I guess. Maybe this is a feature that needs to be addressed in the rpm layer or something so that upgrades can have multiple effects with regards to needing a reboot. I'm not sure how PK gets the request to reboot from a package, but I'm wondering about it. For example, why aren't some of the packages simply a 'log out of X', or 'restart app', or ??? PK could provide that information. However, as it stands, if firefox is updated, I would (under the current way this seems to work) fully expect it to ask for my system to reboot, instead of closing FF and starting it again. I'm not sure if it does or not, but it seems like a package basically has complex upgrade issues, so we reboot. Are there other tags packages can have other than reboot? Should there be? etc etc.. I am an advanced user, and manage a handful of servers and workstations, so yes I don't have to reboot. I'm just wondering about the reboot 'feature' usage patterns I'm seeing. -- Nathanael -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Maybe this is a feature that needs to be addressed in the rpm layer or something so that upgrades can have multiple effects with regards to needing a reboot. I'm not sure how PK gets the request to reboot from a package, but I'm wondering about it. It doesn't get it from the pkg. It uses the updateinfo.xml metadata that is generated by our update processing system that is called 'bodhi'. You can see this data using the yum-security plugin. seems like a package basically has complex upgrade issues, so we reboot. Are there other tags packages can have other than reboot? Should there be? etc etc.. No. I am an advanced user, and manage a handful of servers and workstations, so yes I don't have to reboot. I'm just wondering about the reboot 'feature' usage patterns I'm seeing. And again. PK is not designed for you. The 'reboot often' solution is not FOR you. I said this earlier on another subject but you shouldn't be shocked that camels are slow swimmers. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 10:11 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Maybe this is a feature that needs to be addressed in the rpm layer or something so that upgrades can have multiple effects with regards to needing a reboot. I'm not sure how PK gets the request to reboot from a package, but I'm wondering about it. It doesn't get it from the pkg. It uses the updateinfo.xml metadata that is generated by our update processing system that is called 'bodhi'. You can see this data using the yum-security plugin. Cool. seems like a package basically has complex upgrade issues, so we reboot. Are there other tags packages can have other than reboot? Should there be? etc etc.. No. The reason for this is that PKs target audience is not someone like me, and as such no need to provide different messages per package? I am an advanced user, and manage a handful of servers and workstations, so yes I don't have to reboot. I'm just wondering about the reboot 'feature' usage patterns I'm seeing. And again. PK is not designed for you. The 'reboot often' solution is not FOR you. I said this earlier on another subject but you shouldn't be shocked that camels are slow swimmers. So basically, PK is designed for the non-experienced users, as such everything it does is dumbed down, and experienced users should just ignore it, using other tools to keep their system up to date. So one last question then, in the case of nfs-utils, (ignoring for now any nfs specific restart/condrestart issues). The packaging guidlines will continue to require that a post update script does what is sensible for an update, and not just depend on the admin rebooting their server? -- Nathanael -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-16 17:51, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Peter Jones wrote: On 12/16/2009 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. I get what you're saying, and it's kindof a fair point, but there's also some utility to having the system automatically, proactively notify you of updates. And you can do that. Just don't have pk DO the update. There are lots of ways to get notifications of updates not using PK in the system. And again, we're not talking about for the default everyday user. we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: seems like a package basically has complex upgrade issues, so we reboot. Are there other tags packages can have other than reboot? Should there be? etc etc.. No. The reason for this is that PKs target audience is not someone like me, and as such no need to provide different messages per package? No, the reason for this is there is not more to go on, yet. I would love to require more detailed info on the update including if it is an important/trivial/security/packaging/upstream-update or what not fix. Hands are needed to help advance this. Care to lend one? And again. PK is not designed for you. The 'reboot often' solution is not FOR you. I said this earlier on another subject but you shouldn't be shocked that camels are slow swimmers. So basically, PK is designed for the non-experienced users, as such everything it does is dumbed down, and experienced users should just ignore it, using other tools to keep their system up to date. If what the experienced user wants to do is not something that PK can do or can be configured to do then, yes, disable it and move along. Hell, same thing is true of yum. If you really know what you're doing and yum is in your way then stop using it. So one last question then, in the case of nfs-utils, (ignoring for now any nfs specific restart/condrestart issues). The packaging guidlines will continue to require that a post update script does what is sensible for an update, and not just depend on the admin rebooting their server? the post scripts do what is sensible, on many occasions restarting the daemon will not ensure that the new sw is in use and in other occasions there is no graceful way to restart. so your options are: 1. don't restart but ask the user to 2. restart and drop whatever connections are active. neither are great. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... Then I can think of a couple of solutions to this problem: 1. Have fewer update pushes per release - this is something I'm actively advocating and I think is possible 2. Match up more updates to a specific running app so we can see if the reboot is really necessary at all. - something else I've wrriten some code in support of. How would you like to help in these goals? -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 10:28 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: seems like a package basically has complex upgrade issues, so we reboot. Are there other tags packages can have other than reboot? Should there be? etc etc.. No. The reason for this is that PKs target audience is not someone like me, and as such no need to provide different messages per package? No, the reason for this is there is not more to go on, yet. I would love to require more detailed info on the update including if it is an important/trivial/security/packaging/upstream-update or what not fix. Hands are needed to help advance this. Care to lend one? Yes. I'm attempting to become more involved. I've submitted my first package, and am going through the review process. That doesn't help in this particular case, but I am not complaining for the sake of complaining. I want to help. I fully realize what I use daily for work is the result of many people like you who build this stuff. Thus my desire to become part of it. What can I do here? the post scripts do what is sensible, on many occasions restarting the daemon will not ensure that the new sw is in use and in other occasions there is no graceful way to restart. so your options are: 1. don't restart but ask the user to 2. restart and drop whatever connections are active. neither are great. For sure. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Hands are needed to help advance this. Care to lend one? Yes. I'm attempting to become more involved. I've submitted my first package, and am going through the review process. That doesn't help in this particular case, but I am not complaining for the sake of complaining. I want to help. I fully realize what I use daily for work is the result of many people like you who build this stuff. Thus my desire to become part of it. What can I do here? How much python do you know? We need some time spent on the updateinfo.xml and what information we provide there and tying this in with what info is required from packagers submitting updates to their pkgs. Another good angle to approach is to talk to the folks in fedora-qa and see where they can use a hand. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 10:38 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Hands are needed to help advance this. Care to lend one? Yes. I'm attempting to become more involved. I've submitted my first package, and am going through the review process. That doesn't help in this particular case, but I am not complaining for the sake of complaining. I want to help. I fully realize what I use daily for work is the result of many people like you who build this stuff. Thus my desire to become part of it. What can I do here? How much python do you know? We need some time spent on the updateinfo.xml and what information we provide there and tying this in with what info is required from packagers submitting updates to their pkgs. Unfortunately very very little. I can program in C/C++ and PHP. I've used python years ago. However I can learn if I have to. Another good angle to approach is to talk to the folks in fedora-qa and see where they can use a hand. Will do. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 03:43 PM, Otto Haliburton wrote: windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. Even when it asks, it does that with a modal focus-grabbing dialog window. I was once working on an important server, and was about to click OK on one of my dialog boxes, when a windows update confirmation popped up conveniently located so that my click went to IT, rebooting the server. The queen was not amused. HOWEVER, just because Windows suck doesn't mean that Linux should suck too. My own preference would be a more discriminating dialog that offers three possibilities: 'do nothing', 'bounce the service/application' and 'reboot'. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 16:30 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote: HOWEVER, just because Windows suck doesn't mean that Linux should suck too. My own preference would be a more discriminating dialog that offers three possibilities: 'do nothing', 'bounce the service/application' and 'reboot'. Yup, +1 Jon. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Przemek Klosowski Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 15:30 To: fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On 12/16/2009 03:43 PM, Otto Haliburton wrote: windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically updates it windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a restart. Even when it asks, it does that with a modal focus-grabbing dialog window. I was once working on an important server, and was about to click OK on one of my dialog boxes, when a windows update confirmation popped up conveniently located so that my click went to IT, rebooting the server. The queen was not amused. HOWEVER, just because Windows suck doesn't mean that Linux should suck too. My own preference would be a more discriminating dialog that offers three possibilities: 'do nothing', 'bounce the service/application' and 'reboot'. There is always the circle jerk argument, well linux reboots more than windows, no, windows abandoned the mandatory restart to end up reinstating it. Then, because windows restarts after update sucks, so linux doesn't need to suck like windows. Rebooting after updates is not a trivial matter, if you are a expert don't use PackageKit. Even tho it notifies you of updates doesn't mean you need to use it, there is synaptic, yum extender, yum, etc. none of those require you to reboot, also I don't think that PackageKit mandates a reboot, just asks and you can cancel out of it, I don't remember now, but I think so I know it flags the packages that cause a restart. Anyway nothing will be solved in this thread, for those of us that have been burned by failing to restart, and those that think that rebooting after updates is trivial, will continue to do the things that are required for us to be satisfied in a update. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. This is a completely bogus rationale but one I commonly hear on this list. I, and many other fedora users would be quite *capable* of running our systems with any help of a distribution, we could go and fetch from source and do all the integration ourselves... ...but we'd actually like to get some work done using our computers and don't want to burn our lives away playing master-of-my-own-distro, though we're willing to spend some time contributing to a shared effort to build a good distribution for many. In exchange for not having to personally micro-manage things, we're willing to tolerate some things being configured in violation of our own preferences or aesthetics, or even a few things being outright broken, but that doesn't mean that it's not important for it to work right. Yes, I'm quite capable of executing some big manual process or changing packagekit to behave like I want. But every such action has costs, it takes time and effort which usually has to be repeated every upgrade. The non-standard configuration carries the risk of triggering bugs in other system components, breaking the upgrade process, etc. The gratuitous reboots are harmful to all users. They diminish a significant advantage our systems can have compared to alternatives like Microsoft Windows. They discourage the reporting of bugs in applications… System acting weird? Just restart!. When triggered at inconvenient times they can cause significant harm by interrupting people's work. Yes— users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes— users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction because I know better instead of mandatory reboots? -jef -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
- Original Message - From: Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com To: Development discussions related to Fedora fedora-devel-list@redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:01 PM Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org wrote: you're an experienced user? You're comfortable knowing what does and what does not require a reboot? Then why are you using PK? Disable pk and do the updates directly via yum. Bam - no more requests to reboot. This is a completely bogus rationale but one I commonly hear on this list. I, and many other fedora users would be quite *capable* of running our systems with any help of a distribution, we could go and fetch from source and do all the integration ourselves... that my friend is the open source concept. The users test, develop, create new ideas for development. ...but we'd actually like to get some work done using our computers and don't want to burn our lives away playing master-of-my-own-distro, though we're willing to spend some time contributing to a shared effort to build a good distribution for many. then go commercial, you pays your money you get your dues In exchange for not having to personally micro-manage things, we're willing to tolerate some things being configured in violation of our own preferences or aesthetics, or even a few things being outright broken, but that doesn't mean that it's not important for it to work right. how much do you pay for Fedora, as I remember I think it is free!!! Yes, I'm quite capable of executing some big manual process or changing packagekit to behave like I want. But every such action has costs, it takes time and effort which usually has to be repeated every upgrade. The non-standard configuration carries the risk of triggering bugs in other system components, breaking the upgrade process, etc. as I said go commercial!! The gratuitous reboots are harmful to all users. They diminish a significant advantage our systems can have compared to alternatives like Microsoft Windows. They discourage the reporting of bugs in applications… System acting weird? Just restart!. When triggered at inconvenient times they can cause significant harm by interrupting people's work. If that is so, then you and them are wasting your time with open source Yes— users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. every one contributes. It's free that is why you need to be more tolerant. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 03:51 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: 2009/12/16 Mail Lists li...@sapience.com: The last part is a clean up phase which could be deferred to reboot or perhaps something a little more clever. The devil is in the detail :) Richard. Yes but how are: (a) Kill app - install - restart (b) install in separate are - on reboot (app is now dead, flip link to new install - delete old) Any different? We have ways now of running things as the system is going down or coming up ... don't we ? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/16/2009 06:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote: we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing what does and does not need a reboot. All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced user can do what they want. -sv True, but the default should be sensible. And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user: Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually, tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it comes back. -sv On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad thing... Then I can think of a couple of solutions to this problem: 1. Have fewer update pushes per release - this is something I'm actively advocating and I think is possible Depends on what you actually have in mind. Simply letting update pile up would seem a silly idea to me, it contradicts Fedora's goal and removes what makes Fedora attractive. Letting pile up updates, which require a reboot, but are not addressig real bugs, could be applicable. 2. Match up more updates to a specific running app so we can see if the reboot is really necessary at all. - something else I've wrriten some code in support of. Yes, this would be helpful - But only in case of non-bugfix updates. Bug-fix updates should be pushed ASAP, IMO. 3. Having better tools to avoid reboots. (Consider daemons, servers). 4. Maintainers to be more careful/reluctant/conservative, when considering to update packages, which require a reboot. Ralf -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes— users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this, but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just isn't applicable here. Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction because I know better instead of mandatory reboots? -jef No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users. Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This isn't a good thing. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
packages requiring me to reboot...
Hello, I feel like there are an increasing number of packages requiring a system reboot. I'm wondering why. The following updates were installed today, and required a full system reboot. I can't seem to find any package in the list that I can conceivably see requiring a reboot, is it that PK doesn't have the concept of X logout vs reboot? Is it a bug in the packaging or PK or is there anything I can do/file to improve the situation? Dec 15 09:07:21 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: mysql-libs-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: gpm-libs-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:25 Updated: mysql-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:28 Updated: PyQt4-4.6.2-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:32 Updated: mysql-server-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:34 Updated: gpm-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: 1:tk-8.5.7-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: mpfr-2.4.1-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:39 Updated: foomatic-4.0.3-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:40 Updated: mysql-embedded-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:41 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.i686 Dec 15 09:07:45 Updated: gtk2-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: 1:gdm-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: ibus-libs-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:59 Updated: imsettings-libs-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:02 Updated: glib2-devel-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:07 Updated: yelp-2.28.1-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:10 Updated: f-spot-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:16 Updated: gtk2-devel-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-nautilus-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:27 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:29 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: imsettings-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: 1:gdm-user-switch-applet-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: 1:gdm-plugin-fingerprint-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: totem-mozplugin-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:37 Updated: python-reportlab-2.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: jna-3.2.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: memcached-1.4.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: less-436-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: cscope-15.6-6.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: xorg-x11-drv-mouse-1.5.0-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: f-spot-screensaver-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gtk2-devel-docs-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gpm-devel-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: liveusb-creator-3.9-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:48 Updated: mysql-devel-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:53 Updated: etoys-4.0.2339-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-gtk-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Wouldn't it be sufficient to logout? Is it a bug? -- Nathanael -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Hello, I feel like there are an increasing number of packages requiring a system reboot. I'm wondering why. The following updates were installed today, and required a full system reboot. I can't seem to find any package in the list that I can conceivably see requiring a reboot, is it that PK doesn't have the concept of X logout vs reboot? Is it a bug in the packaging or PK or is there anything I can do/file to improve the situation? Dec 15 09:07:21 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: mysql-libs-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: gpm-libs-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:25 Updated: mysql-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:28 Updated: PyQt4-4.6.2-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:32 Updated: mysql-server-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:34 Updated: gpm-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: 1:tk-8.5.7-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: mpfr-2.4.1-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:39 Updated: foomatic-4.0.3-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:40 Updated: mysql-embedded-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:41 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.i686 Dec 15 09:07:45 Updated: gtk2-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: 1:gdm-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: ibus-libs-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:59 Updated: imsettings-libs-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:02 Updated: glib2-devel-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:07 Updated: yelp-2.28.1-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:10 Updated: f-spot-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:16 Updated: gtk2-devel-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-nautilus-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:27 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:29 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: imsettings-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: 1:gdm-user-switch-applet-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: 1:gdm-plugin-fingerprint-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: totem-mozplugin-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:37 Updated: python-reportlab-2.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: jna-3.2.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: memcached-1.4.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: less-436-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: cscope-15.6-6.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: xorg-x11-drv-mouse-1.5.0-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: f-spot-screensaver-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gtk2-devel-docs-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gpm-devel-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: liveusb-creator-3.9-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:48 Updated: mysql-devel-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:53 Updated: etoys-4.0.2339-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-gtk-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Wouldn't it be sufficient to logout? Is it a bug? Does gdm entirely restart when you logout? I don't believe so. I suspect you get the same result by killing X then going back to that runlevel but for many many many users a reboot is going to be less error-prone. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/15/2009 09:54 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: Does gdm entirely restart when you logout? I don't believe so. I suspect you get the same result by killing X then going back to that runlevel but for many many many users a reboot is going to be less error-prone. Isn't there gdm-restart for that purpose? I don't really know, but I'm just confused as to why a program that lets me login requires a reboot... I *really* don't want to sound whiny or anything like that, or be one of those that compare us to windows... but one of my favorite things from years ago was that I only had to reboot with a new kernel. Now I feel like I reboot every update. I mean, even the ibus stuff was stating I needed a reboot. As far as I know that is used for alternative language input, which I don't use, fair enough it doesn't know that. But what about it needs a reboot? I'm also curious why gdm is still running once I've logged in. I see the user-switch stuff but I'm just wondering. I mean rebooting isn't the end of the world but man it sure happens a lot now -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dne 15.12.2009 18:00, Nathanael D. Noblet napsal(a): On 12/15/2009 09:54 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: Does gdm entirely restart when you logout? I don't believe so. I suspect you get the same result by killing X then going back to that runlevel but for many many many users a reboot is going to be less error-prone. Isn't there gdm-restart for that purpose? I don't really know, but I'm just confused as to why a program that lets me login requires a reboot... I *really* don't want to sound whiny or anything like that, or be one of those that compare us to windows... but one of my favorite things from years ago was that I only had to reboot with a new kernel. Now I feel like I reboot every update. I mean, even the ibus stuff was stating I needed a reboot. As far as I know that is used for alternative language input, which I don't use, fair enough it doesn't know that. But what about it needs a reboot? I'm also curious why gdm is still running once I've logged in. I see the user-switch stuff but I'm just wondering. I mean rebooting isn't the end of the world but man it sure happens a lot now +1 - -- Nikola Pajkovsky npajk...@redhat.com .~. Base Operating Systems Brno /V\ // \\ Jabber: ni...@isgeek.info /( )\ Mobile: +420 777 895 064 ^`~'^ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLJ8J+AAoJED4+/Vgo+H2XtUsIAIzOIdfL5OVS92bLJvFe9Vny RCGKnlnG2TkEztpNZPu0AyU8nNOxAmH5+w+uAmvEpD6jmh5F7QlrSVTJLSamL76G fjWmeuz+4EreSSKwhemlbr7p6vB/CxPkIcivOVYK4OscI7LwJGAQTK74661QvoWr 9BXAP+Wd3KaNere3Ckg4iamSwBDLjSf2fVmVUJjGL4CYnX/mJVnWm7V7VnHy0Rgr lvM9fBUiJAuhOEH5xYScdTdmHmcefDfia1PmlMPVmG7mHlrIxXRF04KhyIJlwirK nEj6mXQk2m0M+KO6zBoV78ROgY4xYk/RmyYbT8icOeojH12pJgo1KZWQ+89iPkI= =Qe52 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: On 12/15/2009 09:54 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: Does gdm entirely restart when you logout? I don't believe so. I suspect you get the same result by killing X then going back to that runlevel but for many many many users a reboot is going to be less error-prone. Isn't there gdm-restart for that purpose? I don't really know, but I'm just confused as to why a program that lets me login requires a reboot... I *really* don't want to sound whiny or anything like that, or be one of those that compare us to windows... but one of my favorite things from years ago was that I only had to reboot with a new kernel. Now I feel like I reboot every update. I mean, even the ibus stuff was stating I needed a reboot. As far as I know that is used for alternative language input, which I don't use, fair enough it doesn't know that. But what about it needs a reboot? I'm also curious why gdm is still running once I've logged in. I see the user-switch stuff but I'm just wondering. I mean rebooting isn't the end of the world but man it sure happens a lot now I don't have a good answer. You might want to ask on the fedora-desktop-list and/or in a bug for that component. I was just trying to explain the specific behavior you saw. Now, having said that - how would you feel if the updater stopped you before it ran and said you're running an app I'm trying to update, please close the app so I can update it. Would that be a pain or ok? -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 10:00 -0700, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: On 12/15/2009 09:54 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: Does gdm entirely restart when you logout? I don't believe so. I suspect you get the same result by killing X then going back to that runlevel but for many many many users a reboot is going to be less error-prone. Isn't there gdm-restart for that purpose? I don't really know, but I'm just confused as to why a program that lets me login requires a reboot... I *really* don't want to sound whiny or anything like that, or be one of those that compare us to windows... but one of my favorite things from years ago was that I only had to reboot with a new kernel. Now I feel like I reboot every update. I mean, even the ibus stuff was stating I needed a reboot. As far as I know that is used for alternative language input, which I don't use, fair enough it doesn't know that. But what about it needs a reboot? Because often you cannot tell if a reboot is required or not. Consider a shared library which gets updated. If the old version of the library contains a security bug and you have already say ten apps running using that library, then after the update of the library the apps will still use the old buggy library. Only after closing and restarting the particular apps will help. From a novice point of view you cannot expect that he/she knows what app to close, so a restart is probably the easiest and safest way. Another problem may raise up if you want to update daemons. During the update the daemon shouldn't be restarted because it might be a critical service I'm using right now. Therefore, having a convenient way for novices is just to say please restart. For all others, just check what gets updated and then decide on your own if you really need to restart the whole system or only some apps/services and then klick on hide this icon ;-) Coming back to your fist post: Wouldn't it be sufficient to logout? In some cases I would say so, but not in all. cheers, Stefan -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 15/12/09 16:50, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote: Hello, I feel like there are an increasing number of packages requiring a system reboot. I'm wondering why. The following updates were installed today, and required a full system reboot. I can't seem to find any package in the list that I can conceivably see requiring a reboot, is it that PK doesn't have the concept of X logout vs reboot? Is it a bug in the packaging or PK or is there anything I can do/file to improve the situation? Personally, I just update, ignore the restart. Shut-down going to bed. Or keep the updates, till bedtime. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Richard Hughes wrote: 2009/12/15 Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org: Now, having said that - how would you feel if the updater stopped you before it ran and said you're running an app I'm trying to update, please close the app so I can update it. Would that be a pain or ok? That's exactly the PackageKit functionality I've added for packages like firefox, that explode internally when they get updated. The trick it to offer to close them down, and bring them back when done. this is what colin and I talked about at fudcon in toronto. I just added some code to yum so it returns to you a list of all pkgs on the system that own a file that is currently open/used in a running process. should make that part of your lookup easier. YumBase.rpmdb.return_running_packages() -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/15 Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org: Now, having said that - how would you feel if the updater stopped you before it ran and said you're running an app I'm trying to update, please close the app so I can update it. Would that be a pain or ok? That's exactly the PackageKit functionality I've added for packages like firefox, that explode internally when they get updated. The trick it to offer to close them down, and bring them back when done. This exists? Can you point me to the code? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
-Original Message- From: fedora-devel-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Colin Walters Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:44 To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot... On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/15 Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org: Now, having said that - how would you feel if the updater stopped you before it ran and said you're running an app I'm trying to update, please close the app so I can update it. Would that be a pain or ok? That's exactly the PackageKit functionality I've added for packages like firefox, that explode internally when they get updated. The trick it to offer to close them down, and bring them back when done. This exists? Can you point me to the code? -- I am not sure what the argument is, factually there are packages that have files open, locks and etc. that need to be shutdown to update, if they are running and you replace the executable, doesn't mean that the memory image is replaced. It is quicker and simpler to just reboot, also the list of the packages that cause you to reboot is probably longer than the ones that are flagged. I think that a reboot should be made whether necessary or not, clears up a lot of grief. fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Nathanael D. Noblet (nathan...@gnat.ca) said: I'm also curious why gdm is still running once I've logged in. When you start a display manager, you start an X server; the display manager then draws on this. Then, when you log in, you have to stat an user session, as the authenticated user (which has a connection to the X server, so it can know when it goes away.) You also have to tell the init daemon which process it's supposed to be tracking, so it can respawn it when it exits. Having that process be the gdm daemon (which forks and execs both the X server and the user session) is arguably a lot simpler than trying to architect it such that the daemon goes away entirely and init then ends up tracking either the X serve or the user session. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:29:25 -0500 Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Nathanael D. Noblet (nathan...@gnat.ca) said: I'm also curious why gdm is still running once I've logged in. When you start a display manager, you start an X server; the display manager then draws on this. Then, when you log in, you have to stat an user session, as the authenticated user (which has a connection to the X server, so it can know when it goes away.) You also have to tell the init daemon which process it's supposed to be tracking, so it can respawn it when it exits. Having that process be the gdm daemon (which forks and execs both the X server and the user session) is arguably a lot simpler than trying to architect it such that the daemon goes away entirely and init then ends up tracking either the X serve or the user session. Bill Isn't GDM just doing a wait(2) on the user-session? Clark signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
Am 2009-12-15 17:50, schrieb Nathanael D. Noblet: Hello, I feel like there are an increasing number of packages requiring a system reboot. I'm wondering why. The following updates were installed today, and required a full system reboot. I can't seem to find any package in the list that I can conceivably see requiring a reboot, is it that PK doesn't have the concept of X logout vs reboot? Is it a bug in the packaging or PK or is there anything I can do/file to improve the situation? Dec 15 09:07:21 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: mysql-libs-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:23 Updated: gpm-libs-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:25 Updated: mysql-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:28 Updated: PyQt4-4.6.2-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:32 Updated: mysql-server-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:34 Updated: gpm-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: 1:tk-8.5.7-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:37 Updated: mpfr-2.4.1-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:39 Updated: foomatic-4.0.3-5.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:40 Updated: mysql-embedded-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:41 Updated: glib2-2.22.3-1.fc12.i686 Dec 15 09:07:45 Updated: gtk2-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: 1:gdm-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:58 Updated: ibus-libs-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:07:59 Updated: imsettings-libs-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:02 Updated: glib2-devel-2.22.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:07 Updated: yelp-2.28.1-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:10 Updated: f-spot-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:13 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-base-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:16 Updated: gtk2-devel-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:25 Updated: totem-nautilus-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:27 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-gl-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:29 Updated: 1:xscreensaver-extras-5.10-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: imsettings-0.107.4-4.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:34 Updated: 1:gdm-user-switch-applet-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: 1:gdm-plugin-fingerprint-2.28.1-25.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:35 Updated: totem-mozplugin-2.28.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:37 Updated: python-reportlab-2.3-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: jna-3.2.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: memcached-1.4.4-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:38 Updated: less-436-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: cscope-15.6-6.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: xorg-x11-drv-mouse-1.5.0-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:40 Updated: f-spot-screensaver-0.6.1.5-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gtk2-devel-docs-2.18.4-3.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: gpm-devel-1.20.6-9.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:46 Updated: liveusb-creator-3.9-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:48 Updated: mysql-devel-5.1.40-1.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:53 Updated: etoys-4.0.2339-1.fc12.noarch Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Dec 15 09:08:59 Updated: ibus-gtk-1.2.0.20091204-2.fc12.x86_64 Wouldn't it be sufficient to logout? Is it a bug? I'd like for the icon that reboots to be more difficult to click on. Or to confirm. Or anything. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
On 12/15/2009 12:42 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: this is what colin and I talked about at fudcon in toronto. I just added some code to yum so it returns to you a list of all pkgs on the system that own a file that is currently open/used in a running process. should make that part of your lookup easier. YumBase.rpmdb.return_running_packages() This seems to be compounding the problem rather than try9ing to avoid it all together. As an alternate suggestion: It may make a lot more sense, to instead install apps in a shadow directory (named by version for example) with the usual spot being a link to the right place. When installing a new one simply install it in the shadow area and flip the link. The existing running app will see home base in the same place and have zero problems. The last part is a clean up phase which could be deferred to reboot or perhaps something a little more clever. firefox will work perfectly if done this way for example. gene -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RE: packages requiring me to reboot...
On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 12:01 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: I am not sure what the argument is, factually there are packages that have files open, locks and etc. that need to be shutdown to update, if they are running and you replace the executable, doesn't mean that the memory image is replaced. It is quicker and simpler to just reboot, also the list of the packages that cause you to reboot is probably longer than the ones that are flagged. I think that a reboot should be made whether necessary or not, clears up a lot of grief. Wow. That's twice today that the suggestion of forcing the user to reboot whether they like it or not has been made. What a long way we've come since the early days :) Personally, I think a dialog box is pretty simple for most users (no forcing, just persuasion), and allows those who know what they're doing to ignore it. And obviously reducing the number of times you ask to just absolute necessity is a win-win. But please, no more forced reboot suggestions. This isn't MSFT. Jon. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
