Re: pruning the fonts list
Bill Nottingham さんは書きました: So, while this could be a good idea, at this stage, this is probably best done for Fedora 10. Right - probably safest at this stage. I suppose one of the 'issues' here is that we want for the base livecd to include basic support for most langs, which means both fonts and input methods. However, to do that you bring in the langsupport groups, which means you do get font duplication. Agreed, and I suggested the same in another followup. Let's try to do that for F10 then. Perhaps we should have an @input-methods group in comps for that? Jens ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Bill Nottingham ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. ... So, while this could be a good idea, at this stage, this is probably best done for Fedora 10. I suppose one of the 'issues' here is that we want for the base livecd to include basic support for most langs, which means both fonts and input methods. However, to do that you bring in the langsupport groups, which means you do get font duplication. Bill ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Nicolas Mailhot さんは書きました: 3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is available Right. It is only pulled in by @japanese-support, but should be installed for Japanese installs I think. 4. drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a space-constrained media Ditto for @hebrew-support. 5. Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype Hmm they are currently both default in the @fonts group. 6. Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts, keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak) The Indic fonts are pretty small. I think mostly Lohit is preferred, except for Malayalam (smc, which is not yet in comps). Again sarai and samyak are optional in @fonts. 7. Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and cjkunifonts-ukai We already have this in @fonts, and should not make this choice for @chinese-support. 8. add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and complain otherwise Agreed. This is also already default in @fonts. I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete. So basically just following the current defaults in @fonts will give you nearly everything you want already. And that is my suggestion: use @fonts for this, not the language support groups which should be considered optional. Jens -- Jens Petersen I18n Engineering, Team Lead Red Hat ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Jeremy Katz さんは書きました: On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay Well we have argued about this before, but my take now is that we should have Lang Support group parity across Live and standard installs: so either we don't install all the language support groups for Live or we should for standard installs, and then take comps from there. Personally I would tend towards not installing all language groups for Live and installing some Input Methods by default to compensate, which would leave Live in a similar state to what it is now, but would drop various fonts that are only installed by default for language support groups. Jens ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 11:31 +0300, Oron Peled a écrit : > [cross-posting to an Israeli Group of Linux Users. > IGLU readers, please read and send me your feedback. > A concrete information (specific apps, toolkits, specific > characters/nikud) would help us form a valid opinion] > > On Saturday, 19 בApril 2008, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le vendredi 18 avril 2008 à 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham a écrit : > > > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > > > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > > > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > > > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. > > > > My advice would be: > > ... > > 4. drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during > > the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a > > space-constrained media > > If DejaVu provides "good-enough" substitute for space limited media, > than it may be OK. Well, DejaVu certainly does not aim just at "good enough". Please report any problem with it upstream. Even if Culmus stays in Fedora users will mostly see DejaVu since it's the default font set (not just in Fedora BTW). So if your script is included in DejaVu you really want to work with DejaVu upstream to get it good. Anyway that highlights a problem with fonts: users are highly sensitive to font changes, and fonts change slowly. So l10n groups *must* test the Fedora font selection very early in a cycle. Any problem spotted after what used to be called Test2 is unlikely to be fixed in time for the final release. More local involvement in font packaging would help of course. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Enhancing the fonts list for the KDE live images (was: Re: pruning the fonts list)
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 00:36 +0200, Sebastian Vahl a écrit : > I've got a similar question here for the KDE live images. At the moment > our fonts list is: At first glance you could use pretty much the same advice as the live spin, except you've already followed some of it, and you have support for some scripts the main live spin is missing (which is good, if you have the space). For example : tibetan & ethiopic (abyssinica). If you really wanted to save space, you could drop the urw & ghoscript fonts, but I suspect you may have some packages depending on them explicitely. They don't add coverage, and they're not really good screen font, but they do provide some standard font metrics (is it worth some live cd space?) signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 02:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram a écrit : > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > 6. Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts, > > keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak) > > Lohit is what we prefer by default for Indic. Everything else can be > deemed optional. Since they're all broken up by scripts now you probably want to be more specific, unless lohit provides every needed indic script and none of the others is necessary for coverage. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 23:13 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le vendredi 18 avril 2008 à 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham a écrit : > > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. > > My advice would be: I pretty much second everything Nicolas said. behdad > 1. drop every core fonts package except one to keep legacy users happy > (probably xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-15-100dpi) > > 2. drop xorg-x11-fonts-Type1. Nothing in there not provided by more > modern font packages > > 3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is > available > > 4. drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during > the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a > space-constrained media > > 5. Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype > > 6. Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts, > keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak) > > 7. Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and > cjkunifonts-ukai > > 8. add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default > fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and > complain otherwise > > I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n > groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a > lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N > remains terribly incomplete. > > Regards, > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- behdad http://behdad.org/ "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Le vendredi 18 avril 2008 à 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham a écrit : > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. My advice would be: 1. drop every core fonts package except one to keep legacy users happy (probably xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-15-100dpi) 2. drop xorg-x11-fonts-Type1. Nothing in there not provided by more modern font packages 3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is available 4. drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a space-constrained media 5. Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype 6. Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts, keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak) 7. Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and cjkunifonts-ukai 8. add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and complain otherwise I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 16:04 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: > > On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > > > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > > > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > > > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. > > > > Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean > > towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than > > making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point > > of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for > > F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay > > Well, things like 'these fonts are only useful outside of fontconfig', > or 'only really used for various terminal emulators' are decisions > probably best left to the spin, not to the generic comps. If the apps not using fontconfig aren't marked as defaults, then it's probably not unreasonable. At least the bitmap fonts, we should probably finally take the plunge with Jeremy ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
Jeremy Katz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: > On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. > > Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean > towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than > making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point > of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for > F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay Well, things like 'these fonts are only useful outside of fontconfig', or 'only really used for various terminal emulators' are decisions probably best left to the spin, not to the generic comps. Bill ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: pruning the fonts list
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I > can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the > full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. > I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay Jeremy ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
pruning the fonts list
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned. 1) Fonts not used by any fontconfig app. I don't think we ship any apps that aren't fontconfig users on the livecd (and if we do, we shouldn't...) 7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 1066029 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi 2) Bitmap fonts, which almost certainly won't be pulled in by fontconfig by default. 27332191fonts-japanese 9241059 baekmuk-bdf-fonts 7049492 bitmap-fonts 1970046 taipeifonts 3) Everything else. These are probably OK. :) 20925196cjkunifonts-uming 17639727cjkunifonts-ukai 15613489dejavu-fonts 13939722baekmuk-ttf-fonts-batang 10385374baekmuk-ttf-fonts-gulim 3831790 VLGothic-fonts-proportional 3831447 VLGothic-fonts 3066338 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-dotum 3008781 thaifonts-scalable 2002144 culmus-fonts 1865190 liberation-fonts 1271487 kacst-fonts 1203754 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-hline 966835 paktype-fonts 883992 xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 775248 stix-fonts 270427 sarai-fonts 177606 lohit-fonts-telugu 162025 samyak-fonts-devanagari 157561 samyak-fonts-oriya 157390 lohit-fonts-bengali 137277 samyak-fonts-gujarati 113638 lohit-fonts-oriya 97894 lohit-fonts-gujarati 96778 lohit-fonts-hindi 85301 samyak-fonts-tamil 83406 lohit-fonts-tamil 82905 samyak-fonts-malayalam 79482 lohit-fonts-malayalam 39898 lohit-fonts-punjabi Bill ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
