Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-02 Thread Mike McGrath
On Sat, 2 May 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:

 On Fri, May 01, 2009 at 08:57:22AM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
  On Fri, 1 May 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:
 
   On Fri, May 01, 2009 at 02:54:08AM -0400, Ricky Zhou wrote:
On 2009-05-01 09:11:11 AM, Axel Thimm wrote:
 Maybe if someone gives some detail on why the LDAP setup looked like
 too hacky we could find a better solution and use LDAP?
  
We were basically trying to use LDAP like a relational DB instead of a
directory, so we were trying to force our entire sponsorship system to
be totally contained in LDAP.  Looking back at this, the best approach
with LDAP would probably have been a DB for sponsorship data, and LDAP
for holding approved user/group data.  As I mentioned, I'd be interested
in exploring this approach a bit more in the future.
  
   With details I mean something more like what exact bits where not
   mapping naturally into some LDAP structure, existent or custom schema
   made.
  
 
  Both ldap groups basically suggested to us to have 3 groups for each
  'group'.  SO if you have a sysadmin group we'd have 'sysadmin'
  'sysadmin-sponsors' and 'sysadmin-admins'.  Then we'd move people from
  one group to another.

 Where is the information *-vanilla vs *-sponsors vs *-admins
 needed? If nothing else outside of FAS needs it, then I'd simply add a
 custom attribute. If you would need to export this information to say
 filesystem ACLs to allow different access to sysadmin-sponsors and
 sysadmin-admins, then you would have to split into these subgroups
 anyway somewhere in the FAS - filesystem ACLs process.

  Then there was the concept of marking who sponsored who in that group.  So
  if Axel joined the sysadmin group and I sponsored him in that group, that
  I be able to track that information.

 That really sounds like a simple custom attribute, possibly not even
 needed anywhere else outside of FAS scope.

  Those two requirements together make ldap a poor solution in our use
  case.

 Why? Custom schemes are quite often found in LDAP world, and it is
 really just two attributes you are adding to typical PosixAccounts.


I'm not sure why you'd have to ask the fedora-ds and openldap devs.  We
dropped ldap largly on their recommendation, the comment that did it for
me was what you're trying to do with ldap is not a very ldap way of doing
things.  Thus why I described what we were trying to do as hacky

-Mike

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-01 Thread Axel Thimm
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 09:53:39AM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
 Mike McGrath wrote:
  On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Ricky Zhou wrote:
  In some distant future version of FAS, I'd
  like to play with the idea of storing the data in LDAP while handling
  our group sponsorship system in postgres.
 
  
  Ick
  
 heh :-)
 
 I think ricky's approach could work but it would need planning.  The
 idea would be to increase the complexity of FAS but decrease the
 complexity for everything we deploy that needs authentication.  We'd
 want to examine that assumption in the planning phase to make sure it's
 actually true for us.
 
 For instance, there was the thought that having cached credentials on
 our servers was preferable to what happens to when the LDAP server goes
 down.  Still a concern?

You can have slave LDAP servers, of course, and if you don't trust
their location, you can have slices of LDAP mirrored differently,
e.g. not all attributes, not all trees etc.

 We currently mask a lot of information for the privacy policy, can we do
 that with LDAP?  (Or just not put the information in there?)

Sure, there are rather fine-coarsed ACL systems in both openldap and ds.

 We let third parties (like the hosts to let packagers try building on
 ppc, x86_64, etc) use fas to get ssh keys.  Would we let them connect to
 and get that information from the LDAP server instead?

There would be no security downside compared to other retieval
solution. Absolute security is to let this be done by a trusted human.

 We let people use their normal accounts to get a subset of data for
 authenticating to their web apps while they're developing them.  Would
 we enable the same setup with LDAP?

Yes, check out the ACLs in either or the two popular projects.
-- 
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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-01 Thread Axel Thimm
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 07:54:42AM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
 On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:
 
  On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 02:03:55PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
   We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
   is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
   we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
   group.
 
  Can't this be implemented with a FAS ldap schema that contains these
  bits in ldap attributes?
 
  Or rephrased: Can't any SQL field in a table be always mapped onto
  some (custom) ldap attribute? If you can map a problem onto an SQL
  database it should be possible to go ldap IMHO.
 
 
 Seems like it should work that way, and we spent months trying to get it
 to work right (even working with the fedora-ds people) but it just ended
 up being very hacky and not very good.

Maybe if someone gives some detail on why the LDAP setup looked like
too hacky we could find a better solution and use LDAP?
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-01 Thread Axel Thimm
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:23:55PM -0500, Matt Domsch wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 06:44:09AM +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
  On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 02:03:55PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
   We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
   is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
   we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
   group.
  
  Can't this be implemented with a FAS ldap schema that contains these
  bits in ldap attributes?
 
 Can I reverse the question? Instead of a pam_fas module, what about
 creating a way to export FAS information as LDAP, such that all
 LDAP-consuming apps would just work, albeit not able to access the
 FAS-specific information?

That was further up the thread: One could have FAS export the parts
Mike needs in an ldif formated file and cron-import them into a *read
only* ldap backend. You would need a sibling ldap instance running for
serving ldap requests.

If you mean having an ldap (read-only) interface to FAS coded, then I
think that this is quite a lot of work.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-01 Thread Ricky Zhou
On 2009-05-01 09:11:11 AM, Axel Thimm wrote:
 Maybe if someone gives some detail on why the LDAP setup looked like
 too hacky we could find a better solution and use LDAP?
We were basically trying to use LDAP like a relational DB instead of a
directory, so we were trying to force our entire sponsorship system to
be totally contained in LDAP.  Looking back at this, the best approach
with LDAP would probably have been a DB for sponsorship data, and LDAP
for holding approved user/group data.  As I mentioned, I'd be interested
in exploring this approach a bit more in the future.

Thanks,
Ricky


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-05-01 Thread Ricky Zhou
On 2009-04-30 09:53:39 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
 I think ricky's approach could work but it would need planning.  The
 idea would be to increase the complexity of FAS but decrease the
 complexity for everything we deploy that needs authentication.  We'd
 want to examine that assumption in the planning phase to make sure it's
 actually true for us.
 
 For instance, there was the thought that having cached credentials on
 our servers was preferable to what happens to when the LDAP server goes
 down.  Still a concern?
My suggested solution to this would be to continue having local cached
data using nss_db.  One benefit to having this backed by LDAP instead of
SQL is that reading/generating these local caches should be far faster.

 We currently mask a lot of information for the privacy policy, can we do
 that with LDAP?  (Or just not put the information in there?)
Yes, we can restrict access to this information.

 We let third parties (like the hosts to let packagers try building on
 ppc, x86_64, etc) use fas to get ssh keys.  Would we let them connect to
 and get that information from the LDAP server instead?
That is certainly an option.  I don't think OpenSSH has built in support
for reading public keys from an LDAP server without recompiling it with
third party patches, so we'd still need something for creating home
directories with authorized_key files.  

 We let people use their normal accounts to get a subset of data for
 authenticating to their web apps while they're developing them.  Would
 we enable the same setup with LDAP?
With LDAP, authentication should be possible without having separate
special credentials. 

Thanks,
Ricky


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-30 Thread Mike McGrath
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 02:03:55PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
  We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
  is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
  we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
  group.

 Can't this be implemented with a FAS ldap schema that contains these
 bits in ldap attributes?

 Or rephrased: Can't any SQL field in a table be always mapped onto
 some (custom) ldap attribute? If you can map a problem onto an SQL
 database it should be possible to go ldap IMHO.


Seems like it should work that way, and we spent months trying to get it
to work right (even working with the fedora-ds people) but it just ended
up being very hacky and not very good.

-Mike

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-30 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

 Mike McGrath wrote:
  On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Ricky Zhou wrote:
  In some distant future version of FAS, I'd
  like to play with the idea of storing the data in LDAP while handling
  our group sponsorship system in postgres.
 
 
  Ick
 
 heh :-)

 I think ricky's approach could work but it would need planning.  The
 idea would be to increase the complexity of FAS but decrease the
 complexity for everything we deploy that needs authentication.  We'd
 want to examine that assumption in the planning phase to make sure it's
 actually true for us.

 For instance, there was the thought that having cached credentials on
 our servers was preferable to what happens to when the LDAP server goes
 down.  Still a concern?

 We currently mask a lot of information for the privacy policy, can we do
 that with LDAP?  (Or just not put the information in there?)

 We let third parties (like the hosts to let packagers try building on
 ppc, x86_64, etc) use fas to get ssh keys.  Would we let them connect to
 and get that information from the LDAP server instead?

 We let people use their normal accounts to get a subset of data for
 authenticating to their web apps while they're developing them.  Would
 we enable the same setup with LDAP?


 I figure we're still very much in the exploritory stage, we should get our
 requirements together though.  FAS going down is still a real concern, but
 if we implement a hardware key system, like yubikey, we'll have a similar
 requirement in that yubikey requires a yubiserver of some kind (or the AES
 key on every server).

Normally there will need to be a prcedure to deal with such failures.
Who to contact, how they log it, what methods are used for
'all-things-failed' access (usually a one-time-password that is
changed afterwords), how to log actions and how to set things right
again. This is more of a person fix versus technological fix.




-- 
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
Hello Mike,

are you speaking about a Linux PAM module, or CGI?

regards,
Sascha

2009/4/29 Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com:
 On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
  Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?
 

 I am not a great C coder but I have done some pam stuff. what is the issue?


 I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not sure
 it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
 with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios, etc.

        -Mike

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-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen, / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
http://spreitzer.name/

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
Hello again,

 I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.
sry, havent read this.

regards,
Sascha

2009/4/29 Sascha Thomas Spreitzer sas...@spreitzer.name:
 Hello Mike,

 are you speaking about a Linux PAM module, or CGI?

 regards,
 Sascha

 2009/4/29 Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com:
 On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
  Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?
 

 I am not a great C coder but I have done some pam stuff. what is the issue?


 I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not sure
 it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
 with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios, etc.

        -Mike

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 Fedora-infrastructure-list@redhat.com
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 --
 Mit freundlichen Grüßen, / with kind regards,
 Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
 http://spreitzer.name/




-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen, / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
http://spreitzer.name/

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Neo Reeves
Hi,

I'm not a hardcore C programmer, but have basic knowledge in C and C++. Can
you share some technical details so that we have a better understanding of
what needs to be done?
Kinda new on this kind of programming, but I'd love to give it a try.

Thnx,
Sameeh

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer 
sas...@spreitzer.name wrote:

 Hello again,

  I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.
 sry, havent read this.

 regards,
 Sascha

 2009/4/29 Sascha Thomas Spreitzer sas...@spreitzer.name:
  Hello Mike,
 
  are you speaking about a Linux PAM module, or CGI?
 
  regards,
  Sascha
 
  2009/4/29 Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com:
  On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
 
  On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com
 wrote:
   Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?
  
 
  I am not a great C coder but I have done some pam stuff. what is the
 issue?
 
 
  I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not
 sure
  it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
  with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios,
 etc.
 
 -Mike
 
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  --
  Mit freundlichen Grüßen, / with kind regards,
  Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
  http://spreitzer.name/
 



 --
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 Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
 http://spreitzer.name/

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---
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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Stefan Schlesinger wrote:

 On Apr 29, 2009, at 01:38 , Mike McGrath wrote:
  I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not sure
  it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
  with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios, etc.

 I'm not sure what exactly you want to do, but pam_ldap should do what
 you want, right? Or at least one could use it as codebase and modify it.


 pam_ldap would probably be close to what we want and certainly a good
 place to look but we don't run an ldap server so it won't auth against
 fas.


Well normally what I have seen is that the 'FAS' server would export a
schema table to LDAP and LDAP would then be what is authenticated to
(the same with Kerberos if combined). Or the FAS server has a
mysql/postgres background and someone uses pam/mod mysql to do it.

The one problem with custom pam modules is usually the 'oooh'
moment when something doesn't work quite as planned (hey look I can
sudo root as apache? how did that happen?)


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Mike McGrath
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 04/30/2009 12:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote:
  On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
 
  On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
  On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Stefan Schlesinger wrote:
 
  On Apr 29, 2009, at 01:38 , Mike McGrath wrote:
  I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not 
  sure
  it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
  with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios, 
  etc.
  I'm not sure what exactly you want to do, but pam_ldap should do what
  you want, right? Or at least one could use it as codebase and modify it.
 
  pam_ldap would probably be close to what we want and certainly a good
  place to look but we don't run an ldap server so it won't auth against
  fas.
 
  Well normally what I have seen is that the 'FAS' server would export a
  schema table to LDAP and LDAP would then be what is authenticated to
  (the same with Kerberos if combined). Or the FAS server has a
  mysql/postgres background and someone uses pam/mod mysql to do it.
 
  The one problem with custom pam modules is usually the 'oooh'
  moment when something doesn't work quite as planned (hey look I can
  sudo root as apache? how did that happen?)
 
 
  This is a legit and good concern.  Ricky and I were talking about it last
  night.  Since we're re-thinking things I'm open to suggestions.  Might be
  something as simple as getting an ldap server to communicate with a
  postgres backend?
 
  -Mike
 Sorry for butting in like this, but I always assumed FAS would use LDAP
 as a backend, so that 3rd parties, if they wanted to plug in to the
 system, would utilize LDAP.  Is that not the case?


Correct, that's not the case.  Instead of LDAP we have a postgres backend
and use json to auth, third parties use python-fedora to authenticate.  We
tried pretty hard to get LDAP working with our account system but ran into
many problems and decided to go back to postgres.

-Mike

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Axel Thimm
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:03:03PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
   Well normally what I have seen is that the 'FAS' server would export a
   schema table to LDAP and LDAP would then be what is authenticated to
   (the same with Kerberos if combined). Or the FAS server has a
   mysql/postgres background and someone uses pam/mod mysql to do it.

  Sorry for butting in like this, but I always assumed FAS would use LDAP
  as a backend, so that 3rd parties, if they wanted to plug in to the
  system, would utilize LDAP.  Is that not the case?
 
 Correct, that's not the case.  Instead of LDAP we have a postgres backend
 and use json to auth, third parties use python-fedora to authenticate.  We
 tried pretty hard to get LDAP working with our account system but ran into
 many problems and decided to go back to postgres.

I'd third the LDAP love here, e.g. either a read-only cron'd export to
LDAP or rewriting the FAS backend for LDAP. Any future tool you may
want to attach to FAS will most probably have LDAP support out of the
box, but any other kind of authentication would need special coding
(like your pam module request), which is both time consuming and a
security risk if not written properly.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Mike McGrath
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:03:03PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
Well normally what I have seen is that the 'FAS' server would export a
schema table to LDAP and LDAP would then be what is authenticated to
(the same with Kerberos if combined). Or the FAS server has a
mysql/postgres background and someone uses pam/mod mysql to do it.

   Sorry for butting in like this, but I always assumed FAS would use LDAP
   as a backend, so that 3rd parties, if they wanted to plug in to the
   system, would utilize LDAP.  Is that not the case?
 
  Correct, that's not the case.  Instead of LDAP we have a postgres backend
  and use json to auth, third parties use python-fedora to authenticate.  We
  tried pretty hard to get LDAP working with our account system but ran into
  many problems and decided to go back to postgres.

 I'd third the LDAP love here, e.g. either a read-only cron'd export to
 LDAP or rewriting the FAS backend for LDAP. Any future tool you may
 want to attach to FAS will most probably have LDAP support out of the
 box, but any other kind of authentication would need special coding
 (like your pam module request), which is both time consuming and a
 security risk if not written properly.


We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
group.

As far as actually using FAS to do stuff, it's quite possible that we can
use LDAP there for things.  I think:

http://www.darold.net/projects/ldap_pg/HOWTO/

Is worth getting up and running to see.  If it turns out to be cumbersome,
then perhaps a cronned job is all that's available.

-Mike

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Axel Thimm
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 02:03:55PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
 We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
 is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
 we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
 group.

Can't this be implemented with a FAS ldap schema that contains these
bits in ldap attributes?

Or rephrased: Can't any SQL field in a table be always mapped onto
some (custom) ldap attribute? If you can map a problem onto an SQL
database it should be possible to go ldap IMHO.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Matt Domsch
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 06:44:09AM +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 02:03:55PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
  We worked pretty closely with different LDAP teams and the way FAS works
  is just not very... ldapian.  Although it's only some internal stuff that
  we need (specifically related to our user/sponsor/admin bits in each
  group.
 
 Can't this be implemented with a FAS ldap schema that contains these
 bits in ldap attributes?

Can I reverse the question? Instead of a pam_fas module, what about
creating a way to export FAS information as LDAP, such that all
LDAP-consuming apps would just work, albeit not able to access the
FAS-specific information?

-- 
Matt Domsch
Linux Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO
linux.dell.com  www.dell.com/linux

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-29 Thread Ricky Zhou
On 2009-04-29 11:23:55 PM, Matt Domsch wrote:
 Can I reverse the question? Instead of a pam_fas module, what about
 creating a way to export FAS information as LDAP, such that all
 LDAP-consuming apps would just work, albeit not able to access the
 FAS-specific information?
I agree with this approach.  In some distant future version of FAS, I'd
like to play with the idea of storing the data in LDAP while handling
our group sponsorship system in postgres.

Thanks,
Ricky


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Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-28 Thread Mike McGrath
Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?

-Mike

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-28 Thread Ricky Zhou
On 2009-04-28 04:57:33 PM, Mike McGrath wrote:
 Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?
I've been doing some C in school, so if there's no big rush, I wouldn't
mind getting some practice :-)

Thanks,
Ricky


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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-28 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
 Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?


I am not a great C coder but I have done some pam stuff. what is the issue?


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice

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Re: Any C coders want to help me with something?

2009-04-28 Thread Mike McGrath
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
  Any C coders want to help me with a pam module?
 

 I am not a great C coder but I have done some pam stuff. what is the issue?


I'd like someone to write a pam module to auth against fas.  I'm not sure
it's the way to go but I'd like to have something up and running to test
with to see how it behaves, how it deals with some failure scenarios, etc.

-Mike

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