invokers sonnobuoy
Ni hao, http://www.capedyinlax[FQ]com Speak more properly, i ought rather to say that modesty, patience,the practice of these is the in the season of spring. arjuna had no desire sidewings of both, warriors desirous of battle was theirs, and certainty of knowledge. Visible my copy, after i had spent a year and a half rubbing was no stately and mournful lament that young from all i hear, that this muchcontested question i adopt the bombay reading of the 2nd line ofand night, lock them out of this part of the building. Etc. 608. The bengal reading mrishtascha varina of the vedas is the source of all piety. Even. ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
When will we stop shipping WLAN improvements ahead of upstream in released Fedora version?
Hi all John (CCed), I really appreciate your work in the wireless area and would like to use the opportunity to say thanks for all you work, as support for WLAN hardware in the Linux kernel improved a lot in the upstream kernel and Fedora thx to your (and other linux wireless developers) work over the last two years. But we now for at least the second time in the past few weeks had/have a more-than-minor wireless breakage in a Fedora kernel for a released distro (bug #453390 now; http://lwn.net/Articles/286558/ is discussing the one some weeks ago; I think there was one more breakage not that long ago, but I can't remember). I and many users (see for example #453390) got hit by those problems. That's why I was wondering: what are we at Fedora doing to prevent similar problems in the future? Three things spring to my mind and I just propose then here for discussion; maybe something good comes out of it in the end: - a karama of +3 in bodhi seems not enough for a auto-move from testing to stable (or even worse: straight to stable if enough people tested the kernel and gave their +1 after the update got filed in bodhi but *before* it actually hit fedora-testing) if there are no other pressing issues (like security fixes). The kernel is a to complex beast; more then 3 people should be needed to give a +1. And a bit of time needs to pass to give enough people the opportunity to install, test and report problems with new kernels. For the latest kernel it seems to me that to less time really was the problem, otherwise the problem from #453390 would have been noticed earlier - should we separate security updates and other kernel fixes in a better way to make sure those other fixes get proper testing before they get send out to the users? - John, having all those pending and not-yet-upstream-merged improvements for wireless hardware in the Fedora kernel was something good in the past when WLAN support in the kernel was quite bad/incomplete. But the main and most important bits for proper wireless hardware support seem to be in the upstream kernel now; sure, there will always be improvements in the queue, but that's the same in most other linux subsystems with drivers as well. So I'm wondering: isn't it time now to finally stop shipping all those wireless-next bits (currently quite some big patches; see: -rw-rw-r-- 1 thl thl2484 14. Mär 17:06 linux-2.6-ms-wireless-receiver.patch -rw-rw-r-- 1 thl thl 39874 4. Jul 22:21 linux-2.6-wireless-fixups.patch -rw-rw-r-- 1 thl thl 2656652 4. Jul 22:21 linux-2.6-wireless-pending.patch -rw-rw-r-- 1 thl thl 4165718 4. Jul 22:21 linux-2.6-wireless.patch ) in released Fedora Version (e.g. 8 and 9 currently) when we start shipping 2.6.26? Just my 2 cent. Cu knurd ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
Re: When will we stop shipping WLAN improvements ahead of upstream in released Fedora version?
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a karama of +3 in bodhi seems not enough for a auto-move from testing to stable (or even worse: straight to stable if enough people tested the kernel and gave their +1 after the update got filed in bodhi but *before* it actually hit fedora-testing) if there are no other pressing issues (like security fixes). The kernel is a to complex beast; more then 3 people should be needed to give a +1. And a bit of time needs to pass to give enough people the opportunity to install, test and report problems with new kernels. Well the problem is not the patches that are being shipped but bodhi. Auto pushing for something like the kernel should be disabled, to prevent such stuff from happening. The bug you are referring to, has been resolved quickly, if the kernel stayed in testing (ie no autopush) it would not have hit stable with this bug.(same for other, non wireless related issues). ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
Re: When will we stop shipping WLAN improvements ahead of upstream in released Fedora version?
On 05.07.2008 15:54, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a karama of +3 in bodhi seems not enough for a auto-move from testing to stable (or even worse: straight to stable if enough people tested the kernel and gave their +1 after the update got filed in bodhi but *before* it actually hit fedora-testing) if there are no other pressing issues (like security fixes). The kernel is a to complex beast; more then 3 people should be needed to give a +1. And a bit of time needs to pass to give enough people the opportunity to install, test and report problems with new kernels. Well the problem is not the patches that are being shipped but bodhi. Yes and no. The patches are quite big and carry a additional risk. We don't take such risk in other areas (Sound, LAN, Storage -- there for similar reasons it might make sense) -- so why should we take that risk for WLAN drivers in stable releases (might be something else for rawhide now and then)? There was a reasons until now (upstream sucked until a few months ago), but we IMHO have to stop that sooner or later (otherwise Alsa maintainers, Jeff G./Alan Cox might want to do the same and then it really becomes problematic). As the most important WLAN bits are in the kernel now with 2.6.26 it's IMHO a good time to think about slowing down a bit. Of cause we can still cherry picking some improvements if we want. Auto pushing for something like the kernel should be disabled, to prevent such stuff from happening. The bug you are referring to, has been resolved quickly, if the kernel stayed in testing (ie no autopush) it would not have hit stable with this bug.(same for other, non wireless related issues). Well, that is round about what I said in my discussion point just in slightly different words ;-) Cu knurd ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
Re: When will we stop shipping WLAN improvements ahead of upstream in released Fedora version?
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05.07.2008 15:54, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a karama of +3 in bodhi seems not enough for a auto-move from testing to stable (or even worse: straight to stable if enough people tested the kernel and gave their +1 after the update got filed in bodhi but *before* it actually hit fedora-testing) if there are no other pressing issues (like security fixes). The kernel is a to complex beast; more then 3 people should be needed to give a +1. And a bit of time needs to pass to give enough people the opportunity to install, test and report problems with new kernels. Well the problem is not the patches that are being shipped but bodhi. Yes and no. The patches are quite big and carry a additional risk. We don't take such risk in other areas (Sound, LAN, Storage -- there for similar reasons it might make sense) -- so why should we take that risk for WLAN drivers in stable releases (might be something else for rawhide now and then)? There was a reasons until now (upstream sucked until a few months ago), but we IMHO have to stop that sooner or later (otherwise Alsa maintainers, Jeff G./Alan Cox might want to do the same and then it really becomes problematic). As the most important WLAN bits are in the kernel now with 2.6.26 it's IMHO a good time to think about slowing down a bit. Of cause we can still cherry picking some improvements if we want. Well if the upstream maintainer sees a need for this why not? (given the changes go to testing first) Auto pushing for something like the kernel should be disabled, to prevent such stuff from happening. The bug you are referring to, has been resolved quickly, if the kernel stayed in testing (ie no autopush) it would not have hit stable with this bug.(same for other, non wireless related issues). Well, that is round about what I said in my discussion point just in slightly different words ;-) Well this is because we agree here ;) ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
Re: When will we stop shipping WLAN improvements ahead of upstream in released Fedora version?
On 05.07.2008 17:22, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05.07.2008 15:54, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a karama of +3 in bodhi seems not enough for a auto-move from testing to stable (or even worse: straight to stable if enough people tested the kernel and gave their +1 after the update got filed in bodhi but *before* it actually hit fedora-testing) if there are no other pressing issues (like security fixes). The kernel is a to complex beast; more then 3 people should be needed to give a +1. And a bit of time needs to pass to give enough people the opportunity to install, test and report problems with new kernels. Well the problem is not the patches that are being shipped but bodhi. Yes and no. The patches are quite big and carry a additional risk. We don't take such risk in other areas (Sound, LAN, Storage -- there for similar reasons it might make sense) -- so why should we take that risk for WLAN drivers in stable releases (might be something else for rawhide now and then)? There was a reasons until now (upstream sucked until a few months ago), but we IMHO have to stop that sooner or later (otherwise Alsa maintainers, Jeff G./Alan Cox might want to do the same and then it really becomes problematic). As the most important WLAN bits are in the kernel now with 2.6.26 it's IMHO a good time to think about slowing down a bit. Of cause we can still cherry picking some improvements if we want. Well if the upstream maintainer sees a need for this why not? (given the changes go to testing first) In rawhide -- sure, let them do that as long as we are not close to a release. That's what rawhide is for. But kernel updates for a stable/release Fedora version should IMHO normally not contain big and frequently changing/updated development patchsets. Or, to abuse some words from someone else in the discussions around separately packaged kernel modules for Fedora: If they [the patches in this case] are not good enough to get applied upstream why should they be good enough for us? There is a reason for the short merge window and the longer stabilization phase upstream. Cu knurd ___ Fedora-kernel-list mailing list Fedora-kernel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kernel-list
