Re: ati radeon drivers 4670 hd, and fedora 11

[Jonathan Dieter]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 08:13 +0200, Michael Shelby (deathnote6) wrote:
> I downloaded the file and ran the sudo yum install kmod-fglrx,
> it says no package available might be wrong package.
> my specs are
> Specs
> Release 11 (Leonidas)
> Kernel Linux 2.6.29.3-155.fc11.86_64
> GNOME 2.261
> 

AFAIK, ATI's binary driver doesn't work with 2.6.29 kernels, so
RPMFusion hasn't packaged it for F11 yet.

Jonathan


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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Jonathan Dieter]

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:28 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Yes, mine does.  Clicking on a link here in kmail ALWAYS runs firefox with 
> two 
> tabs, both linked somehow so that if I scroll one of then and quit that tab, 
> the remaining tab has also been scrolled to the same place.  But they are not 
> in synch when the links video plays, so in order to stop the confusion of all 
> the doubletalk, I have to kill one tab, usually the top(2nd) tab.  I think 
> that is evidence that my card DOES do hardware mixing.

Actually, I think dmix (alsa's software mixing solution) is enabled by
default in alsa now (though I could be wrong).  

Jonathan


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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:01:24AM +0300, Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:28 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Yes, mine does.  Clicking on a link here in kmail ALWAYS runs firefox with 
> > two 
> > tabs, both linked somehow so that if I scroll one of then and quit that 
> > tab, 
> > the remaining tab has also been scrolled to the same place.  But they are 
> > not 
> > in synch when the links video plays, so in order to stop the confusion of 
> > all 
> > the doubletalk, I have to kill one tab, usually the top(2nd) tab.  I think 
> > that is evidence that my card DOES do hardware mixing.
> 
> Actually, I think dmix (alsa's software mixing solution) is enabled by
> default in alsa now (though I could be wrong).  
> 

Yes, dmix has been the default for a while now.

I'm still not sure about integrated sound cards supporting hardware mixing..
Feel free to prove me wrong.. :)

-- Pasi

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Re: OT: Can Reformatting A Hard Drive To ext3 Destroy All the Data On It?

[Alan Cox]

On Thu, 28 May 2009 22:29:23 -0400
Robert L Cochran  wrote:

> I have a hard drive that I need to destroy the data on. What is the most 
> dependable way to do this?

Thermite ?

> Can reformatting the drive as ext3 or ext4 or 
> some other filesystem effectively destroy the existing data?

No

> Is there free software that can write zeroes or some form of nonsense to 
> every storage location?

That isn't completely guaranteed. Modern drives have a security erase
command which I think some tools like hdparm can issue as shipped nowdays

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 28 May 2009, Tom Horsley wrote:
>On Thu, 28 May 2009 09:17:51 -0300
>
>Paulo Cavalcanti wrote:
>> but maybe
>> some folk just did not realize that yet
>
>And just how would they realize how simple all that gibberish
>actually is? It just comes to them in a flash of insight perhaps?
>Or maybe the zero documentation has something to do with it :-).

Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero 
configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work, ahh forget 
it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the cause, right?

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 28 May 2009, Andras Simon wrote:
>On 5/28/09, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
>> Steve Underwood wrote:
>>> I thought most people wanted to get rid of pulseaudio.
>>
>> Only because people like you perpetuate some stupid myth that PulseAudio
>> is evil.
>
>This is not true (and is an insult, I'd think).
>
>[...]
>
>> So PulseAudio is a mixing solution which works for everyone.
>
>You must be joking.
>
>Andras

+10.

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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
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Re: OT: Can Reformatting A Hard Drive To ext3 Destroy All the Data On It?

[Ambrogio]

Il giorno ven, 29/05/2009 alle 14.52 +1200, Clint Dilks ha scritto:
> > dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/youbettergetthisright bs=1M
> >
> If you want to be really sure you need to do the command above several 
> time or use software like
> 
> http://www.dban.org/
> 
/dev/zero is not the right device to use.
Better is /dev/random or /dev/urandom
But they are not speed

Bye
 Ambrogio

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Possible xrandr issue on F11...

[Shannon McMackin]

I'm running F11 on a Lenovo T61 with Intel GM965.  In the past and on 
other distros xrandr -q displays a whole list of available resolutions 
and information.  This time it only supplies 1 resolution.  What this 
does is I can't mirror my LCD or do any dual-head function.  Here's what 
I get from xrandr -q:



[smcmac...@localhost Desktop]$ xrandr -q
Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1440 x 900, maximum 8192 x 8192
VGA1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
LVDS1 connected 1440x900+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 304mm x 
190mm
   1440x900   60.1*+   50.0
DVI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)


is this worthy of a bug?

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Re: OT: Can Reformatting A Hard Drive To ext3 Destroy All the Data On It?

[Frank Murphy (Frankly3d)]

Robert L Cochran wrote:
I have a hard drive that I need to destroy the data on. What is the most 
dependable way to do this? Can reformatting the drive as ext3 or ext4 or 
some other filesystem effectively destroy the existing data?


Is there free software that can write zeroes or some form of nonsense to 
every storage location?


Thanks

Bob Cochran



Anglegrinder or Drill lots of holes.

FRank

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Rotate touchpad

[Alessandro Boggiano]

Basically I'd like to use my eeepc like ebook reader.
I can flip the screen with xrand or by gnome control center,
but I haven't found a solution for the touchpad.

I found a guy that made it work with ubuntu 
(http://cc.oulu.fi/~rantalai/synaptics/)

and I know that it's possible doing it "on-the-fly" with XP.

Something for fedora ?

Thanks
Alessandro

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:35 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> ahh forget 

Hey, careful with those acronyms there :-)

poc

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Re: OT: Can Reformatting A Hard Drive To ext3 Destroy All the Data On It?

[Alan Cox]

> /dev/zero is not the right device to use.
> Better is /dev/random or /dev/urandom
> But they are not speed

It makes no real difference - use the drives own secure erase feature if
you want to be sure, otherwise you've got no guarantee that everything
will be cleared - only the drive knows enough to do the job.

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Re: bluetooth mounse becomes erratic when network load is moderate.

[Wendell Nichols]

Wendell Nichols wrote:
I have a bluetooth mouse which works nicely most of the time, but if I 
run a process which consumes network resources (and my network is 
wireless) the pointer lags behind the mouse movement.  Even playing 
music via an nfs mounted disk is enough to cause this problem.  Anyone 
else see or overcome that?

wcn


More on my own question.
It turns out that bluetooth runs on the same frequencies as woreless 
b/g/n.  Bluetooth also uses frequency switching to the extent that it 
didn't help to relocate my wireless N connection to either end of the 
supported spectrum.  Wireless ethernet and bluetooth are simply not 
compatable in the same area.  I will have to keep my USB mouse handy for 
those times that I am making heave use of the wireless.

Thank goodness I didn't go out and buy that bluetooth headset...
wcn

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Kernel update broke my system.

[Wendell Nichols]

While I was conducting a web meeting with a number of people yesterday 
my keyboard stopped working.  Thats the second time its happened and I 
was forced to reboot!  Imagine my acute frustration that because of a 
kernel update the boot loader failed and I was left with a blinking 
cursor!  While 10 people patiently waited on the phone I had to boot the 
installer and go through the "change boot loader" part of an os 
upgrade.  Luckly that worked and I was back in business in about 15 minutes.
I suspect that all my raving about the stability of linux over windows 
is now the source of some humor in my company and the 3 other companies 
represented on the call


The kernel update that "got me" was:  kernel-2.6.27.19-170.2.35.fc10.x86_64
ackkptewee :-)
wcn

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Re: One (more) week slip of Fedora 11 Release

[Axel Thimm]

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:36:18AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> A late discovered and just potentially fixed anaconda storage bug[1] has
> necessitated another week slip of our schedule.  The change is important
> but invasive enough to require re-validating our storage tests.  We were
> already late in producing the Release Candidate and there is not enough
> time to produce another one and validate it in time for next Tuesday's
> release date.  Therefor we have decided to enact another week long slip
> of the release.  This gives us time to create a second release candidate
> and fully validate it and hand it off to the mirrors in plenty of time
> to sync up for the new release date of June 9th.  As much as we regret
> slipping, we also wish to avoid easily trigger-able bugs in our release,
> particularly in software that cannot be fixed with a 0-day update.
> 
> At this time we would only accept tag requests for critical issues.
> 
> [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500808

Does it make sense to fold in the f11 updates into the next preview
release? E.g. to move all current updates back to rawhide?
-- 
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Re: One (more) week slip of Fedora 11 Release

[Rex Dieter]

Axel Thimm wrote:

> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:36:18AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> A late discovered and just potentially fixed anaconda storage bug[1] has
>> necessitated another week slip of our schedule.  The change is important
>> but invasive enough to require re-validating our storage tests.  We were
>> already late in producing the Release Candidate and there is not enough
>> time to produce another one and validate it in time for next Tuesday's
>> release date.  Therefor we have decided to enact another week long slip
>> of the release.  This gives us time to create a second release candidate
>> and fully validate it and hand it off to the mirrors in plenty of time
>> to sync up for the new release date of June 9th.  As much as we regret
>> slipping, we also wish to avoid easily trigger-able bugs in our release,
>> particularly in software that cannot be fixed with a 0-day update.
>> 
>> At this time we would only accept tag requests for critical issues.
>> 
>> [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500808
> 
> Does it make sense to fold in the f11 updates into the next preview
> release? E.g. to move all current updates back to rawhide?

Little sense imo... no/little qa/testing, more work, more delay.

-- Rex



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Re: bluetooth mounse becomes erratic when network load is moderate.

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 06:52 -0600, Wendell Nichols wrote:
> Wendell Nichols wrote:
> > I have a bluetooth mouse which works nicely most of the time, but if I 
> > run a process which consumes network resources (and my network is 
> > wireless) the pointer lags behind the mouse movement.  Even playing 
> > music via an nfs mounted disk is enough to cause this problem.  Anyone 
> > else see or overcome that?
> > wcn
> >
> More on my own question.
> It turns out that bluetooth runs on the same frequencies as woreless 
> b/g/n.  Bluetooth also uses frequency switching to the extent that it 
> didn't help to relocate my wireless N connection to either end of the 
> supported spectrum.  Wireless ethernet and bluetooth are simply not 
> compatable in the same area.  I will have to keep my USB mouse handy for 
> those times that I am making heave use of the wireless.
> Thank goodness I didn't go out and buy that bluetooth headset...

I have a BT mouse and Wifi on my EeePC and they both work fine at the
same time. Lots of people are going to be in the same situation, so if
Bluetooth and Wifi were incompatible I'm sure we'd have heard about it
before now, and very loudly.

I've no idea what's going on in your case, but my first thought would be
to try a different Bluetooth mouse. Perhaps yours is out of spec. Or
maybe your machine is simply overloaded.

poc

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of
> what to do when it chooses its default output channel wrong, and
> effectively sends it all to /dev/null.

You pick the correct default in pavucontrol.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 07:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:35 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> > ahh forget 
> 
> Hey, careful with those acronyms there :-)

Point Of Contention

similar to acronym POS - Point of Sale

;-)

Craig


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Re: Kernel update broke my system.

[M A Young]

On Fri, 29 May 2009, Wendell Nichols wrote:

While I was conducting a web meeting with a number of people yesterday my 
keyboard stopped working.  Thats the second time its happened and I was 
forced to reboot!  Imagine my acute frustration that because of a kernel 
update the boot loader failed and I was left with a blinking cursor!  While 
10 people patiently waited on the phone I had to boot the installer and go 
through the "change boot loader" part of an os upgrade.  Luckly that worked 
and I was back in business in about 15 minutes.
I suspect that all my raving about the stability of linux over windows is now 
the source of some humor in my company and the 3 other companies represented 
on the call


The kernel update that "got me" was:  kernel-2.6.27.19-170.2.35.fc10.x86_64
ackkptewee :-)
wcn


I suspect the problem here is that when you last updated the OS grub 
wasn't updated properly, meaning that the boot sector part of grub was 
looking for the stage2 file at one location of the disk but this was now 
blank space from the filesystem point of view. From then on, whenever you 
updated your kernel, or did something else in the /boot filesytem, you ran 
the risk of overwriting this data and killing grub.


Michael Young

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RE: Kernel update broke my system.

[Smith, Herb]

 

> -Original Message-
> From: M A Young [mailto:m.a.yo...@durham.ac.uk] 
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:30 AM
> To: Community assistance, encouragement,and advice for using Fedora.
> Subject: Re: Kernel update broke my system.
> 
> On Fri, 29 May 2009, Wendell Nichols wrote:
> 
> I suspect the problem here is that when you last updated the 
> OS grub wasn't updated properly, meaning that the boot sector 
> part of grub was looking for the stage2 file at one location 
> of the disk but this was now blank space from the filesystem 
> point of view. From then on, whenever you updated your 
> kernel, or did something else in the /boot filesytem, you ran 
> the risk of overwriting this data and killing grub.
> 
>   Michael Young
> 

That may be true, but the Updater is doing that job, and it nuked my
system too.  How often does that happen?  This is the first time I've
seen it since I've been using RH8 up to now, but it does give me pause.

Herb Smith

 

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Re: bluetooth mounse becomes erratic when network load is moderate.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Wendell Nichols wrote:
>Wendell Nichols wrote:
>> I have a bluetooth mouse which works nicely most of the time, but if I
>> run a process which consumes network resources (and my network is
>> wireless) the pointer lags behind the mouse movement.  Even playing
>> music via an nfs mounted disk is enough to cause this problem.  Anyone
>> else see or overcome that?
>> wcn
>
>More on my own question.
>It turns out that bluetooth runs on the same frequencies as woreless
>b/g/n.  Bluetooth also uses frequency switching to the extent that it
>didn't help to relocate my wireless N connection to either end of the
>supported spectrum.  Wireless ethernet and bluetooth are simply not
>compatable in the same area.  I will have to keep my USB mouse handy for
>those times that I am making heave use of the wireless.
>Thank goodness I didn't go out and buy that bluetooth headset...
>wcn

That's odd, both my keyboard and mouse are wireless of some sort, logitek, and 
there does not seem to be any interaction between those and a bluetooth dongle 
that I use instead of a serial cable to an old legacy computer in the 
basement. There is also an atheros card in my router that I use for my lappy 
about half the time.  When I can get that bcm4318 to work at all that is.  
POS.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


All bad precedents began as justifiable measures.
-- Gaius Julius Caesar, quoted in "The Conspiracy of
   Catiline", by Sallust

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RE: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Delaunay Christophe wrote:
> through the ESpeak speech synthesizer

If you have portaudio-19-6.fc10, espeak should just work with PulseAudio. As
I did the fix for portaudio, I'm highly interested in any issues with it.

> For instance, "Welcome to Orca" became "Welcome to Or".

I cannot reproduce this here (pulseaudio-0.9.10-2.fc9.i386,
portaudio-19-6.fc9.i386, espeak-1.31-5.fc9.i386), at least not from the
command line. espeak "Welcome to Orca" works just fine, the "ca" doesn't
get truncated.

Unfortunately, I can't test Orca because of:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=448198

I also found another Orca bug while testing this:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503193

> As a result [of upgrading to F10], I don't hear ESpeak anymore.

Nor can I reproduce this. I can try on my laptop which already runs F10.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: EeePC - Fedora or Ubuntu?

[Kevin Kofler]

Christof Damian wrote:
> Another distribution to try would be: http://moblin.org/ . It is a bit
> like Xandros but nicer and is a Fedora fork, so it is very easy to
> install additional software with yum. It also has a user interface
> which works pretty good on netbooks. It comes with all the drivers you
> need for the EeePC.

Moblin isn't really a fork of Fedora, it's a bizarre hodgepodge of Fedora,
OpenSUSE and custom packages.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: EeePC - Fedora or Ubuntu?

[Kevin Kofler]

Timothy Murphy wrote:
> I suppose there isn't an eeeFedora?

There used to be an Eeedora, but it is outdated (based on Fedora 8 which is
no longer supported and only targeting the original EeePC 701). The stock
Fedora should just work out of the box.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Gene Heskett  writes:
> Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
> configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
> cause, right?

Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"

Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
I miss that.

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht  Android 1.5 (Cupcake) and Fedora-11

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of
>> what to do when it chooses its default output channel wrong, and
>> effectively sends it all to /dev/null.
>
>You pick the correct default in pavucontrol.
>
>Kevin Kofler

And that IIRC, was one of the things in my kmenu that never ran, ever.  And 
while this box isn't exactly a fresh install of F10 now, that was also true 
for the fresh install back in February after the main drive crapped out, as it 
was last fall when I first installed F10.  I didn't even get a 30 second 
dancing cursor, it simply did not run.  And since kde4, we no longer have the 
name of the executable listed in the menu's, there seems to be no way to try 
such stuff from a cli to see what error falls out when it doesn't run.  Having 
nuked pulse as much as I can, it all works now (for me).  What do I have to 
re-install to make these utils such as what you name above, actually work?

According to rpm -qa I still have:

pulseaudio-libs-0.9.14-3.fc10.i386
xmms-pulse-0.9.4-6.fc10.i386
pulseaudio-utils-0.9.14-3.fc10.i386
wine-pulseaudio-1.1.15-1.fc10.i386
pulseaudio-libs-zeroconf-0.9.14-3.fc10.i386
pulseaudio-core-libs-0.9.14-3.fc10.i386
xine-lib-pulseaudio-1.1.16.3-2.fc10.i386
pulseaudio-libs-glib2-0.9.14-3.fc10.i386

installed.

Right now, it (pavucontrol) does run from the cli, but reports connection 
refused (of course, no 'server' is running), and the gui is locked up so I 
can't see any output choices and it all exits when I close the error message 
box.

pavucontrol?  That sounds like it is a control for vu meters of some kind, and 
with zero docs, who would have known that it is supposedly the configuration 
tool?  If there is to be no docs, then how about _sensible_ names?  
pa'vu'control indeed. :( Sheesh.

As I have stated before,
[r...@coyote log]# man pulseaudio
No manual entry for pulseaudio

What is so damned secret about this that it has to be hidden behind all the 
smoke and mirrors & gobbledygook doublespeak such that 2 years+ after it is 
first included in a fedora snapshot, and its just now that I'm finding out 
that pavucontrol is actually the configuration tool?

This 'junk' needs some man pages.  Without the tools to make it work being 
available for any and all to use, it is of no more use to me than the tits on 
a boar hog.  But I don't expect there ever to be any, its fedora, right?  And 
don't tell me there isn't room on the dvd.  There is a good 500 megs left 
before the iso is bigger than a single layer dvd, and I _can_ burn duals here 
according to the propaganda about my drive.

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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: Streaming media server

[Kevin Kofler]

Wendell Nichols wrote:
> I currently play my music (which is stored in a file system on a server
> on my home network) by mounting the filesystem via nfs and playing the
> files in amarok.  However if any disruption to the wireless network
> occurs, I lose the mount and, as you know, its hell to recover an nfs
> mount if the network has failed.

Try fuse-sshfs.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Craig White  writes:
> similar to acronym POS - Point of Sale

Point of Stumbling?

-wolfgang
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Re: One (more) week slip of Fedora 11 Release

[Axel Thimm]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 09:16:39AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Axel Thimm wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:36:18AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >> A late discovered and just potentially fixed anaconda storage bug[1] has
> >> necessitated another week slip of our schedule.  The change is important
> >> but invasive enough to require re-validating our storage tests.  We were
> >> already late in producing the Release Candidate and there is not enough
> >> time to produce another one and validate it in time for next Tuesday's
> >> release date.  Therefor we have decided to enact another week long slip
> >> of the release.  This gives us time to create a second release candidate
> >> and fully validate it and hand it off to the mirrors in plenty of time
> >> to sync up for the new release date of June 9th.  As much as we regret
> >> slipping, we also wish to avoid easily trigger-able bugs in our release,
> >> particularly in software that cannot be fixed with a 0-day update.
> >> 
> >> At this time we would only accept tag requests for critical issues.
> >> 
> >> [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500808
> > 
> > Does it make sense to fold in the f11 updates into the next preview
> > release? E.g. to move all current updates back to rawhide?
> 
> Little sense imo... no/little qa/testing, more work, more delay.

Maybe that's even a reason to pull them in now. After all these 600+
packages will be on every F11 system from the first day, so if there
is a problem, we better stumble over it now.
-- 
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Re: OT: Can Reformatting A Hard Drive To ext3 Destroy All the Data On It?

[Robin Laing]

Robert L Cochran wrote:
I have a hard drive that I need to destroy the data on. What is the most 
dependable way to do this? Can reformatting the drive as ext3 or ext4 or 
some other filesystem effectively destroy the existing data?


Is there free software that can write zeroes or some form of nonsense to 
every storage location?


Thanks

Bob Cochran



As many others have said, the answer is no.

Use the various tools to erase the drive as suggested.

I have actually formatted a drive as VFAT and EXT3 and still recovered 
data off of that drive.  It was not a test but a major mistake on my 
part.  Even recovered data from a drive that was part of an LVM and 
reformatted.


If the drive is small, it may be better to just destroy the drive.  One 
technique that I read about was to drill holes into the drive and fill 
it with Cola.  The acid will destroy the surface of the drive.


I physically take the drives apart and use the platter for various 
things.  They are so shiny at first.  :)


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Robin Laing

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Konstantin Svist wrote:
> Is there a driver wrapper for printers out there (similar to
> ndiswrapper)? If not, there should be :P

No, there shouldn't! We'll never get native, Free drivers that way. I don't
want to have to use crappy buggy proprietary drivers which weren't even
written for my operating system! Ndiscrapper (misspelling intentional) is a
problem, not a solution.

Buy a supported printer! (I recommend HP models supported by HPLIP without
the binary "plugin". Most HP printers are, but check the compatibility list
to be sure.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Konstantin Svist wrote:
> And HP is a huge well known company which obviously doesn't make mistakes
> like this.

In fact they don't. Almost all their printers work out of the box with
HPLIP.

http://hplipopensource.com/

> I'm supposed to write a driver myself?

No, you're supposed to buy compatible hardware.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Craig White wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 07:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:35 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
>> > ahh forget
>>
>> Hey, careful with those acronyms there :-)
>
>
>Point Of Contention
>
Chuckle, that it surely is, but that is NOT the acronym I had in mind.

>similar to acronym POS - Point of Sale

Likewise I had another phrase in  mind. :)
>
>;-)
>
>Craig
>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


The Czechs announced after Sputnik that they, too, would launch a satellite.
Of course, it would orbit Sputnik, not Earth!

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> Yep. In fact the very first time I ever had a "plug & play" scanner
> actually function by merely plugging it in was when I plugged in
> my new HP multi-function box to my fedora 10 system. I almost
> had a heart attack :-). It didn't just "plug & play" on windows,
> I had to load updated HP software to get it working there.

Thank the HPLIP team for that. :-)

(No, I don't work for HP nor on the HPLIP project, I just like the fact that
it just works out of the box.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 08:00 -0700, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> Gene Heskett  writes:
> > Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
> > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> > ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
> > cause, right?
> 
> Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"
> 
> Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
> had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
> anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
> options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
> really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
> being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
> I miss that.

+1

poc

PS Also, the man pages were for the most part well-written and concise.

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Re: pulseaudio capability question

[Kevin Kofler]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> Then, while it is at it, accept already encoded audio streams
> from a DVD I'm playing and bypass the ffmpeg layer for them.

AFAIK, this one is planned, but not supported yet...

> I would love to learn I can insert an output filter to use
> ffmpeg to do on the fly conversion of all my audio to something
> that can be sent to the SP/DIF optical output on my motherboard.

... and this one is not even planned at this point.

You could of course write your own sound server using the PulseAudio network
protocol and encoding your audio on the fly.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: EeePC - Fedora or Ubuntu?

[Ralf Corsepius]

Kevin Kofler wrote:

Timothy Murphy wrote:

I suppose there isn't an eeeFedora?


There used to be an Eeedora, but it is outdated (based on Fedora 8 which is
no longer supported and only targeting the original EeePC 701). The stock
Fedora should just work out of the box.


May-be on ASUS netbooks. For MSI-based netbooks (MSI-Wind, Medion E121x 
etc.), I would have to lie to recommend Fedora.


Ralf


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Re: bluetooth mounse becomes erratic when network load is moderate.

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Wendell Nichols  said:
> Wireless ethernet and bluetooth are simply not 
> compatable in the same area.

Many notebooks have both built-in, and they work at the same time just
fine.
-- 
Chris Adams 
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>Konstantin Svist wrote:
>> Is there a driver wrapper for printers out there (similar to
>> ndiswrapper)? If not, there should be :P
>
>No, there shouldn't! We'll never get native, Free drivers that way. I don't
>want to have to use crappy buggy proprietary drivers which weren't even
>written for my operating system! Ndiscrapper (misspelling intentional) is a
>problem, not a solution.
>
>Buy a supported printer! (I recommend HP models supported by HPLIP without
>the binary "plugin". Most HP printers are, but check the compatibility list
>to be sure.)
>
>Kevin Kofler

For a change Kevin, we agree 95%.  We will never convince the Lexmarks of the 
world to give us working driver writing information until we are a more 
significant piece of the market, one they will have to play with on our terms 
IF they want to sell us their printers.

However, gutenprint, with _some_ Epson printers can also be quite usable, I 
have sold color prints from my now 8 year old C82.  Epsons reds are better 
than HP's in particular, and I have excellent color vision, which means I'm 
also relatively poor at seeing in the dark.  HP's reds always have a slightly 
orange tint to me, making flesh tones look like too much makeup.  The 
Durabrite inks are also rated for archival (100+ years life) use.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Place me on a BUFFER counter while you BELITTLE several BELLHOPS in the
Trianon Room!!  Let me one of your SUBSIDIARIES!

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Re: One (more) week slip of Fedora 11 Release

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 16:24:01 +0300,
  Axel Thimm  wrote:
> 
> Does it make sense to fold in the f11 updates into the next preview
> release? E.g. to move all current updates back to rawhide?

I think the object is to get iso's that will boot and install properly with
F11. Fixing bugs not related that isn't nearly as important, as once the
image is installed people can get the latest updates. From that perspective,
the extra work verifying that the updates don't break booting and installing
under lots of different circumstances isn't worth it.

And people who want to make their own spins can already do this when they
need it. So merging in today's updates aren't that important, since they
would want to get the updates at some future point in time.

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git & less/vim

[Brian Ericson]

Anyone know how to get git working properly with less and vim?  
Specifically:


* less does not "clear" (revert) the screen properly after commands like 
"git log" and "git diff"
* vim isn't using the git extensions/file types for commands like "git 
commit"


Both of these work properly in Gentoo (and vim -- but not less -- works 
properly in Ubuntu), but it's not obvious to me what's different between 
the distros to account for the differing behavior...


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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> And that IIRC, was one of the things in my kmenu that never ran, ever.

Then PulseAudio is not working. (pavucontrol at least used to just segfault
if PA was not running or not accepting connections because it didn't find a
working hardware device.)

> And since kde4, we no longer have the name of the executable listed in the
> menu's, there seems to be no way to try such stuff from a cli to see what
> error falls out when it doesn't run.

The pavucontrol name doesn't show up because the .desktop file doesn't
contain it. (It only has a Name field containing a generic name and no
GenericName field.) Complain to the pavucontrol maintainer(s) about that.
Where the names are contained in the .desktop file (i.e. for most KDE
apps), Kickoff will show them if you mouse over that item. Alternatively,
you can use the classic menu, which can be configured to show any
combination of Name and GenericName.

> What do I have to re-install to make these utils such as what you name
> above, actually work?

yum install kde-settings-pulseaudio
should drag in all you need. (You need at least pulseaudio and
alsa-plugins-pulseaudio.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Craig White wrote:
> Point Of Contention

Or Proof Of Concept, which would actually fit in that sentence. Though I
think it's also not what was meant here. ;-)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ... (Gene Heskett)

[Pat Kane]

 >Gene Heskett wrote:
 > And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of

Let me Google that for you:

gets us to:

which pointed us to:


Pat
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
> had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
> anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
> options installed into the appropriate man directory.

That's also Debian's policy. But I don't think we need such a policy in
Fedora. It wouldn't even fix this problem as we're not talking about
command-line options here, but about GUI features.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 08:00 -0700, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> Gene Heskett  writes:
> > Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
> > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> > ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
> > cause, right?
> 
> Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"
> 
> Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
> had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
> anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
> options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
> really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
> being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
> I miss that.

there are some who light candles and some will just curse the darkness.
If you see a void in the documentation, I reasonably certain that your
efforts to fill that void would be appreciated.

Craig


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Re: Rotate touchpad

[Kevin Kofler]

Alessandro Boggiano wrote:
> I found a guy that made it work with ubuntu
> (http://cc.oulu.fi/~rantalai/synaptics/)
> and I know that it's possible doing it "on-the-fly" with XP.
> 
> Something for fedora ?

The same hack should also work in Fedora.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Gene Heskett  writes:
> We will never convince the Lexmarks of the world to give us working
> driver writing information until we are a more significant piece of
> the market, one they will have to play with on our terms IF they want
> to sell us their printers.

I'm told by an engineer there that the problem with Lexmark (and I
assume every hyper-cheap printer) is that the even very low-level stuff
is done by the host computer.  There are things the printer can do that
will break the printer.  We are talking about things like how long to
heat the little wire to flash-steam the ink etc.  Do it for too long and
you damage the wire.  On the mickysoft driver, this is all buried in a
binary blob and while folks could in theory binary edit it, they won't
for the most part.  In the OSS world, if they released sources, that
almost certainly wouldn't be as true.  This puts Lexmark in a very bad
position.  If they open it up they would need to figure out a way to
tell if a modified driver caused damage and not cover that damage under
warranty repairs.

Now there might be other issues too like BS patents, where everyone and
their brother has patents on all the obvious ideas surrounding printing.
Exposing the software when you know that the competitor is claiming
patents on half a dozen things you are doing isn't going to make the
legal dept very happy.

-wolfgang
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Tom Horsley]

On Fri, 29 May 2009 11:03:44 -0400
Gene Heskett wrote:

> And since kde4, we no longer have the 
> name of the executable listed in the menu's, there seems to be no way to try 
> such stuff from a cli to see what error falls out when it doesn't run.

One bit of arcana worth knowing for just this situation is that all the
menu items correspond to .desktop files in the /usr/share/applications/
directory. A grep -r in there will often dig up useful info, then once
you find the .desktop file, the "Exec" line in it gives the actual command
that is executed by the menu item.

No doubt it should be easier to discover this stuff, but I find digging
through the applications directory is often the best way to discover
info I need :-).

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>Gene Heskett  writes:
>> Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
>> configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
>> ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
>> cause, right?
>
>Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"
>
>Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
>had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
>anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
>options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
>really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
>being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
>I miss that.
>
>-wolfgang
>--
>Wolfgang S. Rupprecht  Android 1.5 (Cupcake) and Fedora-11
+10,000

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Tom Horsley]

On Fri, 29 May 2009 17:22:54 +0200
Kevin Kofler wrote:

> Thank the HPLIP team for that. :-)

Thanks hplip team! :-).

> (No, I don't work for HP nor on the HPLIP project, I just like the fact that
> it just works out of the box.)

But what is really unfortunate is that the box doesn't have a penguin
printed on it, and HP's product pages don't mention linux or point
to the hplip site. If I was HP, I'd want hordes of linux users
saying "Hey! Look! Linux support, I gotta get me one of those!".
I only discovered scanner support had been added to hplip by
complete accident when I saw a mention of it in some unrelated
thread during a web search.

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Re: EeePC - Fedora or Ubuntu?

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/29/2009 09:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Timothy Murphy wrote:
>>> I suppose there isn't an eeeFedora?
>>
>> There used to be an Eeedora, but it is outdated (based on Fedora 8
>> which is
>> no longer supported and only targeting the original EeePC 701). The stock
>> Fedora should just work out of the box.
> 
> May-be on ASUS netbooks. For MSI-based netbooks (MSI-Wind, Medion E121x
> etc.), I would have to lie to recommend Fedora.

The conversation wasn't really about MSI based notebooks but what
problems are there and have they been reported?

Rahul

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Kevin Kofler  writes:
> Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>> Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
>> had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
>> anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
>> options installed into the appropriate man directory.
>
> That's also Debian's policy. But I don't think we need such a policy in
> Fedora. It wouldn't even fix this problem as we're not talking about
> command-line options here, but about GUI features.

I think you are reading it much to literally.

Good documentation is lacking, people are complaining and we have people
saying that "I don't think we need such a policy in Fedora."  Amazing.

-wolfgang
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Re: Application Server Software For Fedora 10/11/CentOS

[RS]

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 22:35 -0400, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> I'm interested in setting up a Fedora system as an application server so 
> that it works like/has features similar to IBM's WebSphere Application 
> Server. I can't afford IBM's licensing costs. Is there an open source 
> application server that works more or less the same and will run on 
> either Fedora 10 or 11 or CentOS?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bob Cochran
> 

Depends on the features you need from the app server. IBM ships a
boatload of "enterprise" features with the websphere stack. If you need
EJB, Messaging, web services, JSF and other Java EE 5 features your
options are:

* JBoss
* Glassfish
* Apache Geronimo
* JoNAS

All of the above are FOSS one way or the other

For lighter JSP/Servlet/Spring type apps:

* Tomcat
* Jetty

HTH,
Ravi

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/29/2009 10:06 PM, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:

> 
> Good documentation is lacking, people are complaining and we have people
> saying that "I don't think we need such a policy in Fedora."  Amazing.

If you want to help, you don't really need policy. Do you want to help?

Rahul

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> I think you are reading it much to literally.

The policy you're proposing (and incidentally, also the Debian policy) is
that literal. Requiring good documentation makes sense (though it's hard to
define "good documentation"). Requiring it to be in manpage format and to
document the command-line options (and not requiring anything else), even
for GUI apps, doesn't.
 
> Good documentation is lacking, people are complaining and we have people
> saying that "I don't think we need such a policy in Fedora."  Amazing.

How useful is a manpage like this?
http://manpages.unixforum.co.uk/man-pages/linux/suse-linux-10.1/1/kalzium-man-page.html
(That's exactly what you get if you consult "man kalzium" on an updated
Fedora, it's the manpage which Debian contributed to upstream KDE.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 17:58 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
> > Point Of Contention
> 
> Or Proof Of Concept, which would actually fit in that sentence. Though I
> think it's also not what was meant here. ;-)

Not to mention Point Of Contact, a term used in IETF documents. I
imagine that when I filled out the DNS and ASN forms many years ago
someone probably thought my email was an alias :-)

poc

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 09:08 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 08:00 -0700, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> > Gene Heskett  writes:
> > > Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
> > > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
> > > ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
> > > cause, right?
> > 
> > Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"
> > 
> > Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
> > had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
> > anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
> > options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
> > really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
> > being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
> > I miss that.
> 
> there are some who light candles and some will just curse the darkness.
> If you see a void in the documentation, I reasonably certain that your
> efforts to fill that void would be appreciated.

I'm afraid this comes across as smugness. While I'm willing to do some
polishing of documentation if asked, actually writing docs for something
like PA (or NM, another bugbear of many people here) when one has no
idea how it actually works is simply not reasonable. The devels have to
shoulder this as part of the process of releasing new software, at least
in initial versions.

poc

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Mikkel L. Ellertson]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Fri, 29 May 2009 17:22:54 +0200
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks hplip team! :-).
> 
> 
> But what is really unfortunate is that the box doesn't have a penguin
> printed on it, and HP's product pages don't mention linux or point
> to the hplip site. If I was HP, I'd want hordes of linux users
> saying "Hey! Look! Linux support, I gotta get me one of those!".
> I only discovered scanner support had been added to hplip by
> complete accident when I saw a mention of it in some unrelated
> thread during a web search.
> 
I have had good luck with both HP and Brother. The HP is a
Photosmart D5480 that I picked up for printing CD/DVDs. I was
pleasantly surprised on how well it does photos under Linux as well.
It works out of the box - including the card reader.

My Brother was much more expensive. It is a networked laser all in
one. (MFC 7820N) Printing is supported by CUPS out of the box. You
have to download the backend from the Brother site to use the
scanner with SANE. They also have a program to monitor the buttons
on the front and perform the action of your choice. (I consider this
a gimmic, and do not use it.)

The interesting thing is that if you have CUPS do a network scan
after the printer is configured for network use, CUPS will find and
configure it. You can also use a USB connection, but I have not
tried it.

Mikkel
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for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> But what is really unfortunate is that the box doesn't have a penguin
> printed on it, and HP's product pages don't mention linux or point
> to the hplip site.

Indeed. They even write: "System Requirements: Window$ or Mac". They aren't
willing to officially support their own GNU/Linux drivers. :-(

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Rahul Sundaram  writes:
> If you want to help, you don't really need policy. Do you want to help?

In the last few years I haven't written much OSS, but you can be sure
that when I do, I do dig out my troff notes and cobble together a man
page for it.  I do practice what I preach.

Am I going to write man pages for other folks?  Nope.  Sorry.  First and
foremost I'm a strong believer in making the developer explain how to
use their program.  Doing so forces them to rethink the issues, makes
them wonder if something is done logically enough, maybe even gets them
to think like a user and wonder what they would find annoying with how
the program currently works.

-wolfgang
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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Alan Cox]

O> is done by the host computer.  There are things the printer can do that
> will break the printer.  We are talking about things like how long to
> heat the little wire to flash-steam the ink etc.  Do it for too long and
> you damage the wire.  On the mickysoft driver, this is all buried in a
> binary blob and while folks could in theory binary edit it, they won't
> for the most part.  In the OSS world, if they released sources, that

You honestly think the bad guys wouldn't just sniff the wire, disassemble
the driver and write printer exploding worms given the chance.

> almost certainly wouldn't be as true.  This puts Lexmark in a very bad
> position.  If they open it up they would need to figure out a way to
> tell if a modified driver caused damage and not cover that damage under
> warranty repairs.

I don't doubt that the printer control is done from the PC end, but I'd
be suprised if Lexmark were dumb enough to just trust the PC commands.
You don't DRM your toner cartridges and then act careless on the rest
surely. I'd have thought they'd have DRM on the driver interface too !

Linux actually supports a fair number of "dumb" printers, usually by
rasterising with ghostscript and then driving the rasteriser through some
custom printer driver.

And printers are one area where the what to buy data is really quite good:

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPrinting

Alan

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Les]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 17:12 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Konstantin Svist wrote:
> > Is there a driver wrapper for printers out there (similar to
> > ndiswrapper)? If not, there should be :P
> 
> No, there shouldn't! We'll never get native, Free drivers that way. I don't
> want to have to use crappy buggy proprietary drivers which weren't even
> written for my operating system! Ndiscrapper (misspelling intentional) is a
> problem, not a solution.
> 
> Buy a supported printer! (I recommend HP models supported by HPLIP without
> the binary "plugin". Most HP printers are, but check the compatibility list
> to be sure.)
> 
> Kevin Kofler
> 
But if one already has a system running windows and converts to Linux,
this is not a good option.  The software should run with stuff that is
already working to be a good product.  Otherwise we will just continue
to be an "also ran" operating system.  I use Linux on three systems now,
and one of them works well, the other two less so, one couldn't update
to F10 because of the APIC (sp?) option not working (an older IBM
system). Another won't work with my wife's cell phone media, refusing to
download her mp3 files (it just stalls, no error messages or any
indication of what is happening).
The third is still running Fedora 8 because it is just an old box I use
for physical trouble shooting on electronics.  Overall, I like Fedora,
but seriously printer and peripheral incompatibility will kill wider
adoption.  It  is about use, not ideology.  If we could wield enough
influence then product manufacturers would support Linux.  But only if
the interface is consistent in the various releases.
The ball is in our court, whether we like it or not.  And, by the way,
why not enable a simple way to interface to Windows drivers? (I'm joking
here, I know the issues.)  I suspect that Windows has severe limitations
on re-entrance, and most likely hasn't publicly documented that process,
which is one of the real issues with drivers anyway.  

Regards,
Les H

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Re: Kernel update broke my system.

[David Burns]

Is there a way to test whether my system has this problem without rebooting?
Dave

>the Updater is doing that job, and it nuked my
> system too.

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:35 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
>> ahh forget
>
>Hey, careful with those acronyms there :-)
>
>poc

Chuckle, sorry about that Patrick, not intended of course.

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: EeePC - Fedora or Ubuntu?

[Alan Cox]

> Another distribution to try would be: http://moblin.org/ . It is a bit
> like Xandros but nicer and is a Fedora fork, 

Moblin isn't really as of itself a distribution or a Fedora fork
(although clearly it draws some material from Fedora, just as Fedora does
from Debian, and Debian from Fedora and so on).

Moblin is a base upon which you can build netbook and small Linux
distributions. That has several important differences from say Fedora eg
that "It doesn't contain package X" is generally considered a feature not
a bug ;) as the less dependancies in that base the better.

Alan

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> You have to download the backend from the Brother site to use the
> scanner with SANE.

... because said backend is not Free Software. Proprietary drivers are evil,
please don't recommend them!

Kevin Kofler

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Re: git & less/vim

[Todd Zullinger]

Brian Ericson wrote:
> Anyone know how to get git working properly with less and vim?
> Specifically:
>
> * less does not "clear" (revert) the screen properly after commands
> like "git log" and "git diff"
[...]
> Both of these work properly in Gentoo (and vim -- but not less --
> works properly in Ubuntu), but it's not obvious to me what's
> different between the distros to account for the differing
> behavior...

The difference is likely that Fedora is shipping a more recent version
of git than Ubuntu and upstream git has seen a few changes regarding
the pager handling.

Check out the core.pager setting in the git-config manpage.  You can
set this a number of ways, using the LESS or GIT_PAGER environment
variables, or the core.pager config setting.  By default, git pass the
options FSRX to less.  The -X option is what prevents less from
clearing the screen, but using -F also causes this in my testing
(which I found confusing...).

If it were me, I'd set the LESS variable and exclude FX, e.g:

export LESS="-RS"

(See the less man page for the options you might want to set.

If you use GIT_PAGER or the core.pager setting, you will have to use
slightly odd syntax to override the LESS environment var that git will
set, e.g.:

export GIT_PAGER='less -+$LESS -RS'

or

git config --global core.pager 'less -+$LESS -RS'

This is described in the git-config manpage.

> * vim isn't using the git extensions/file types for commands like "git
> commit"

On F-10, this should "Just Work" as vim-7.2 has the needed syntax
files included.  Is your EDITOR var set to vim?

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Kevin Kofler  writes:
> Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>> I think you are reading it much to literally.
>
> The policy you're proposing (and incidentally, also the Debian policy) is
> that literal. Requiring good documentation makes sense (though it's hard to
> define "good documentation"). Requiring it to be in manpage format and to
> document the command-line options (and not requiring anything else), even
> for GUI apps, doesn't.

If the problem is that troff is too arcane (and I'll be the first to
admit it -- I hate it) then that needs fixing.  I don't think it would
matter that much what the source for the manpage looked like as long as
"man someprogram" would dig up the documentation and display it in a
similar looking format.

The problem currently is some of the docs are accessible by man(1), some
by info(1) and others by grovelling around /usr/share/doc/ .  Instead of
the computer doing the work and finding the documentation and displaying
it, the user must.  Old hacks might know all the places to look, but
newbies sure wouldn't.

> How useful is a manpage like this?
> http://manpages.unixforum.co.uk/man-pages/linux/suse-linux-10.1/1/kalzium-man-page.html

;-)

That is a good example of a contentless man page.  I assume it was
written by some 3rd party that didn't really understand what the program
did, how it was meant to be used etc.

-wolfgang
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Craig White wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 08:00 -0700, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>> Gene Heskett  writes:
>> > Nah, couldn't be related.  When you add that there are exactly zero
>> > configuration tools to aid us in making this undocumented POC work,
>> > ahh forget it, this is fedora and we are supposed to bleed for the
>> > cause, right?
>>
>> Motto:  "What we lack in documentation we make up for in ideology"
>>
>> Back in my first unix job a zillion years ago the company I worked for
>> had this rule that nothing got installed in a public */bin directory
>> anywhere unless it also had a man page describing all the command line
>> options installed into the appropriate man directory.  That worked out
>> really well in the long run.  Newbies and wizards alike appreciated
>> being able to just say "man foo" and be reminded of how things worked.
>> I miss that.
>
>
>there are some who light candles and some will just curse the darkness.
>If you see a void in the documentation, I reasonably certain that your
>efforts to fill that void would be appreciated.
>
The air up there must be pretty thin.  How do you expect anyone to write docs 
when they have no knowledge of it?  That is probably how we got here in the 
first place...

>Craig
>
>
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The recent proliferation of Nuclear Testing

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> Am I going to write man pages for other folks?  Nope.  Sorry.  First and
> foremost I'm a strong believer in making the developer explain how to
> use their program.  Doing so forces them to rethink the issues, makes
> them wonder if something is done logically enough, maybe even gets them
> to think like a user and wonder what they would find annoying with how
> the program currently works.

Except it doesn't. To some developers, everything is obvious, so the
documentation will just say "do this the obvious way". They won't even
consider the possibility that it could be non-obvious to somebody else.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/29/2009 10:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> 
> I'm afraid this comes across as smugness. While I'm willing to do some
> polishing of documentation if asked, actually writing docs for something
> like PA (or NM, another bugbear of many people here) when one has no
> idea how it actually works is simply not reasonable. The devels have to
> shoulder this as part of the process of releasing new software, at least
> in initial versions.

In my experience, if you volunteer to document something, the developers
associated with the project are more than willing to answer questions
about it. So if you are serious about this, subscribe to the upstream
mailing list and volunteer.

Rahul

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Alan Cox  writes:
> You honestly think the bad guys wouldn't just sniff the wire, disassemble
> the driver and write printer exploding worms given the chance.

I didn't get the impression that they were as worried about their
printers being targeted by worms as much as they were worried that they
would be left holding the bag doing free warranty repairs on printers
that were broken by buggy 3rd party drivers.

As controllers become cheaper, hopefully the excuse of being able to
break the hardware will go away.

> I don't doubt that the printer control is done from the PC end, but I'd
> be suprised if Lexmark were dumb enough to just trust the PC commands.
> You don't DRM your toner cartridges and then act careless on the rest
> surely. I'd have thought they'd have DRM on the driver interface too !

The toner cartridge has lots more mark-up.  You can afford to put more
smarts in that than the printer. ;-)

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not the slightest bit happy about
companies not releasing programming information either.  I just don't
think that MS co-marketing dollars is the answer all of the time.
Sometimes it is just laziness and a false sense of security through
obscurity.

-wolfgang
-- 
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/29/2009 10:58 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

>>
> The air up there must be pretty thin.  How do you expect anyone to write docs 
> when they have no knowledge of it?  That is probably how we got here in the 
> first place...

Start with what you know, use a search engine, go through the upstream
development/user list archives and ask questions to the upstream
developers by volunteering to write documentation. It requires some work
but it can be done and I have done it before.

Rahul

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> That is a good example of a contentless man page.  I assume it was
> written by some 3rd party that didn't really understand what the program
> did, how it was meant to be used etc.

It was written by the Debian maintainer to fulfill a policy exactly like the
one you were proposing. Do you see now why having such a policy at distro
level makes no sense?

Kevin Kofler

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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Rick Stevens]

Les wrote:


But if one already has a system running windows and converts to Linux,
this is not a good option.  The software should run with stuff that is
already working to be a good product.  Otherwise we will just continue
to be an "also ran" operating system.


Les, if you can convince some of the hardware makers (nVidia, TI,
Broadcom and several others) to open the hardware (publish the specs on
the chips and such), then Linux developers can build drivers for them
and get them off the snide.

The requirement to use proprietary binary blobs the maker provides
because they're afraid of what evils the open source community may cause
using their hardware (TI's wireless chips can be set to transmit at very
high power levels and at bogus frequencies) or to protect a "trade
secret" (the fact that we can figure out how to interface to the binary
blobs make this a less tangible reason) will ALWAYS relegate Linux to
"also ran" status.

If you're a conspiracy fan, perhaps there's some $$$ trading hands
betwixt Micro$oft and the hardware makers.  They've done it before, the
sods!  I don't agree with M$ business practices and never have.
--
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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>Gene Heskett  writes:
>> We will never convince the Lexmarks of the world to give us working
>> driver writing information until we are a more significant piece of
>> the market, one they will have to play with on our terms IF they want
>> to sell us their printers.
>
>I'm told by an engineer there that the problem with Lexmark (and I
>assume every hyper-cheap printer) is that the even very low-level stuff
>is done by the host computer.  There are things the printer can do that
>will break the printer.  We are talking about things like how long to
>heat the little wire to flash-steam the ink etc.  Do it for too long and
>you damage the wire.  On the mickysoft driver, this is all buried in a
>binary blob and while folks could in theory binary edit it, they won't
>for the most part.  In the OSS world, if they released sources, that
>almost certainly wouldn't be as true.  This puts Lexmark in a very bad
>position.  If they open it up they would need to figure out a way to
>tell if a modified driver caused damage and not cover that damage under
>warranty repairs.
>
>Now there might be other issues too like BS patents, where everyone and
>their brother has patents on all the obvious ideas surrounding printing.
>Exposing the software when you know that the competitor is claiming
>patents on half a dozen things you are doing isn't going to make the
>legal dept very happy.
>
And which is the very real reason they are in that pickle in the first place.  
Its not what you can or cannot do, its what you can do and not get caught.  
And giving the world discovery via driver writing specs will make damned sure 
you get caught.  So folks like Lexmark will slowly see their market share 
deteriorate as linux grows.  And bet the farm they will file for chapter 7 cuz 
its cheaper than getting caught.  And the exact same people will re-arrange 
the letters on the letterhead and become MarkLex next week and buy up all the 
remains of LexMark at the sheriffs sale.  Business as usual till another 
decade has passed.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

>-wolfgang
>--
>Wolfgang S. Rupprecht  Android 1.5 (Cupcake) and Fedora-11


-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


The recent proliferation of Nuclear Testing

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Antonio Olivares]

--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> From: Gene Heskett 
> Subject: Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...
> To: "Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora." 
> 
> Date: Friday, May 29, 2009, 8:05 AM
> On Friday 29 May 2009, Craig White
> wrote:
> >On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 07:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan
> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 13:35 -0400, Gene Heskett
> wrote:
> >> > configuration tools to aid us in making this
> undocumented POC work,
> >> > ahh forget
> >>
> >> Hey, careful with those acronyms there :-)
> >
> >
> >Point Of Contention
> >
> Chuckle, that it surely is, but that is NOT the acronym I
> had in mind.
> 
> >similar to acronym POS - Point of Sale
> 
> Likewise I had another phrase in  mind. :)
> >
Piece of Sh_t :)

Right?

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: Kernel update broke my system.

[David]

On 5/29/2009 1:16 PM, David Burns wrote:
> Is there a way to test whether my system has this problem without rebooting?
> Dave
> 
>> the Updater is doing that job, and it nuked my
>> system too.


You do realize that the kernel that was running when you did the update
is still installed? This one that "broke my system.". This one that
"nuked my system too.". And that you can boot into it instead of this
new one?

Why don't you do that and report this kernel problem to bugzilla? That
would surely get the attention of the kernel maintainers more
effectively than post to a general 'help me' list.

-- 


  David

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Re: git & less/vim

[Paul W. Frields]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:47:08AM -0500, Brian Ericson wrote:
> Anyone know how to get git working properly with less and vim?   
> Specifically:
>
> * less does not "clear" (revert) the screen properly after commands like  
> "git log" and "git diff"
> * vim isn't using the git extensions/file types for commands like "git  
> commit"
>
> Both of these work properly in Gentoo (and vim -- but not less -- works  
> properly in Ubuntu), but it's not obvious to me what's different between  
> the distros to account for the differing behavior...

Funny, I would look at clearing the screen after a git log to be
awful, since I frequently need the commit name for the following
command.

I found what I think is the appropriate info in 'man git-config' under
the 'core.pager' setting.

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[David]

On 5/29/2009 12:23 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Fri, 29 May 2009 11:03:44 -0400
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
>> And since kde4, we no longer have the 
>> name of the executable listed in the menu's, there seems to be no way to try 
>> such stuff from a cli to see what error falls out when it doesn't run.
> 
> One bit of arcana worth knowing for just this situation is that all the
> menu items correspond to .desktop files in the /usr/share/applications/
> directory. A grep -r in there will often dig up useful info, then once
> you find the .desktop file, the "Exec" line in it gives the actual command
> that is executed by the menu item.
> 
> No doubt it should be easier to discover this stuff, but I find digging
> through the applications directory is often the best way to discover
> info I need :-).


The menu editor will also show what application is called by what menu
selection. Along with any CLI switches if there are any.


-- 


  David

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Kevin Kofler  writes:
> Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>> That is a good example of a contentless man page.  I assume it was
>> written by some 3rd party that didn't really understand what the program
>> did, how it was meant to be used etc.
>
> It was written by the Debian maintainer to fulfill a policy exactly like the
> one you were proposing. Do you see now why having such a policy at distro
> level makes no sense?

I never said that one should make some 3rd party write a placeholder
manpage.

One should waterboard the developer till he/she agrees to write the
manpage.

-wolfgang
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> And that IIRC, was one of the things in my kmenu that never ran, ever.
>
>Then PulseAudio is not working. (pavucontrol at least used to just segfault
>if PA was not running or not accepting connections because it didn't find a
>working hardware device.)
>
>> And since kde4, we no longer have the name of the executable listed in the
>> menu's, there seems to be no way to try such stuff from a cli to see what
>> error falls out when it doesn't run.
>
>The pavucontrol name doesn't show up because the .desktop file doesn't
>contain it. (It only has a Name field containing a generic name and no
>GenericName field.) Complain to the pavucontrol maintainer(s) about that.
>Where the names are contained in the .desktop file (i.e. for most KDE
>apps), Kickoff will show them if you mouse over that item. Alternatively,
>you can use the classic menu, which can be configured to show any
>combination of Name and GenericName.
>
>> What do I have to re-install to make these utils such as what you name
>> above, actually work?
>
>yum install kde-settings-pulseaudio
>should drag in all you need. (You need at least pulseaudio and
>alsa-plugins-pulseaudio.)
>
>Kevin Kofler
That pulled in:
  Installing : pulseaudio   
  
1/4
  Installing : alsa-plugins-pulseaudio  
  
2/4
  Installing : pulseaudio-module-x11
  
3/4
  Installing : kde-settings-pulseaudio

Now what do I service ??? restart to bring it up?

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Mikkel L. Ellertson]

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>> You have to download the backend from the Brother site to use the
>> scanner with SANE.
> 
> ... because said backend is not Free Software. Proprietary drivers are evil,
> please don't recommend them!
> 
> Kevin Kofler
> 
Well, I would prefer a different license for the scanner driver, but
at least they do provide the source code.

Mikkel
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for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/29/2009 11:13 PM, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:

> 
> One should waterboard the developer till he/she agrees to write the
> manpage.

This is unlikely to be effective as a strategy. Hey, it is somewhat ok
that you give me software for free with open source code voluntarily but
I demand you write full documentation to go along with it or else ..?

Rahul

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Richard Shaw]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 29 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> And that IIRC, was one of the things in my kmenu that never ran, ever.
> >
> >Then PulseAudio is not working. (pavucontrol at least used to just
> segfault
> >if PA was not running or not accepting connections because it didn't find
> a
> >working hardware device.)
> >
> >> And since kde4, we no longer have the name of the executable listed in
> the
> >> menu's, there seems to be no way to try such stuff from a cli to see
> what
> >> error falls out when it doesn't run.
> >
> >The pavucontrol name doesn't show up because the .desktop file doesn't
> >contain it. (It only has a Name field containing a generic name and no
> >GenericName field.) Complain to the pavucontrol maintainer(s) about that.
> >Where the names are contained in the .desktop file (i.e. for most KDE
> >apps), Kickoff will show them if you mouse over that item. Alternatively,
> >you can use the classic menu, which can be configured to show any
> >combination of Name and GenericName.
> >
> >> What do I have to re-install to make these utils such as what you name
> >> above, actually work?
> >
> >yum install kde-settings-pulseaudio
> >should drag in all you need. (You need at least pulseaudio and
> >alsa-plugins-pulseaudio.)
> >
> >Kevin Kofler
> That pulled in:
>  Installing : pulseaudio
> 1/4
>  Installing : alsa-plugins-pulseaudio
> 2/4
>  Installing : pulseaudio-module-x11
> 3/4
>  Installing : kde-settings-pulseaudio
>
> Now what do I service ??? restart to bring it up?
>
>
Just logging out and back in should do it but a full restart wouldn't hurt.
Alternatively you could try opening a terminal and type "pulseaudio -D"
which would allow you to see error messages if any. This is from memory so
someone correct me if I'm wrong as I only have access to windows at work.

Richard
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Re: git & less/vim

[Todd Zullinger]

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Funny, I would look at clearing the screen after a git log to be
> awful, since I frequently need the commit name for the following
> command.

:-)  That's part of why finding the right default beharior upstream is
so difficult.

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are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
-- Mark Twain



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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 23:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 05/29/2009 11:13 PM, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> 
> > 
> > One should waterboard the developer till he/she agrees to write the
> > manpage.
> 
> This is unlikely to be effective as a strategy. Hey, it is somewhat ok
> that you give me software for free with open source code voluntarily but
> I demand you write full documentation to go along with it or else ..?

No, but "I demand that you produce decent documentation before I include
your package in my distro" might persuade some people.

poc

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Tom Horsley]

On Fri, 29 May 2009 23:25:46 +0530
Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> but
> I demand you write full documentation to go along with it or else ..?

Lots of distros already have anal policies about what can or cannot
be included (like being licensed only under the One True open
source license).

I'd love a linux distro with a policy that says "We refuse to include
anything that doesn't have adequate docs." I think that's a wonderful
"or else" to resort to.

Unfortunately, such a linux distribution would currently fit on
a 128K thumb drive :-).

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RE: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Michael . Coll-Barth]

 

> From: Wolfgang S. Rupprecht

> Am I going to write man pages for other folks?  Nope.  Sorry. 
>  First and
> foremost I'm a strong believer in making the developer explain how to
> use their program.  Doing so forces them to rethink the issues, makes
> them wonder if something is done logically enough, maybe even 
> gets them
> to think like a user and wonder what they would find annoying with how
> the program currently works.

Alright!  All bow before him!  

I just love ( NOT ) the primadonnas that think writing docs are beneath
them.










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RE: Kernel update broke my system.

[Smith, Herb]

Can't boot into anything when all you get is the GRUB_ prompt.  Wrote to
the help me list to figure out what to do to get my system back.  Once I
get it back I'll be able to try a lot of different things.  From the
respones of some, it seems that it's an issue with GRUB, but it's
unclear that there is an underlying kernel issue or not.  It would seem
that the kernel might be ok, but just that GRUB got hosed in the update
process. 

Yes, I do realize that the previous kernel is still there, but was also
curious as to what could cause this.  It appears, from the lack of
traffic on the topic that not many have had this issue.  Wondered if it
was a hiccup in the download process that caused an install to go bad,
or if there was something unique to my system that caused it to go
bad...  

Sorry for trying to understand...

Herb Smith

> -Original Message-
> From: David [mailto:dgbo...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:49 PM
> To: Community assistance, encouragement,and advice for using Fedora.
> Subject: Re: Kernel update broke my system.
> 
> On 5/29/2009 1:16 PM, David Burns wrote:
> > Is there a way to test whether my system has this problem 
> without rebooting?
> > Dave
> > 
> >> the Updater is doing that job, and it nuked my system too.
> 
> 
> You do realize that the kernel that was running when you did 
> the update is still installed? This one that "broke my 
> system.". This one that "nuked my system too.". And that you 
> can boot into it instead of this new one?
> 
> Why don't you do that and report this kernel problem to 
> bugzilla? That would surely get the attention of the kernel 
> maintainers more effectively than post to a general 'help me' list.
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
>   David
> 
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Re: make libcurl

[Thufir]

On Thu, 28 May 2009 05:16:15 -0400, Andrew Parker wrote:

> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Thufir  wrote:
>>
>> checking for fprintf... yes
>> checking for fwrite... yes
>> checking for CURL... configure: error: Package requirements (libcurl)
>> were not met:
>>
>> No package 'libcurl' found
>>
>>
> do you have libcurl-devel installed?


Thanks, progress!  Now I'm getting:

...

checking for CURL... yes
checking for JDK location (please wait)... configure: error: JDK home not 
found, please specify one with --with-jdk-home option (run ./configure --
help for more options)
[r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# 



[r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# /usr/sbin/alternatives --config java

There is 1 program that provides 'java'.

  SelectionCommand
---
*+ 1   /usr/lib/jvm/jre-1.6.0-openjdk/bin/java

Enter to keep the current selection[+], or type selection number: 1
[r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# 
[r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# echo $JAVA_HOME

[r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# 



However Netbeans is running fine.  Because I've run into NB weirdness in 
the past I installed the IDE from the binary on the NB site, and prefer 
to keep NB that way.  I'm googling how to set JDK home.


thanks,

Thufir

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Re: make libcurl

[Jussi Lehtola]

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 18:34 +, Thufir wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 2009 05:16:15 -0400, Andrew Parker wrote:
> >> No package 'libcurl' found
> >>
> >>
> > do you have libcurl-devel installed?
> 
> 
> Thanks, progress!  Now I'm getting:
> 
> ...
> 
> checking for CURL... yes
> checking for JDK location (please wait)... configure: error: JDK home not 
> found, please specify one with --with-jdk-home option (run ./configure --
> help for more options)
> [r...@arrakis curl-java-0.2.3]# 

You probably just need a java compiler (javac), so

# yum -y install java-1.6.0-openjdk-devel
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Jussi Lehtola
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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 29 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>> Am I going to write man pages for other folks?  Nope.  Sorry.  First and
>> foremost I'm a strong believer in making the developer explain how to
>> use their program.  Doing so forces them to rethink the issues, makes
>> them wonder if something is done logically enough, maybe even gets them
>> to think like a user and wonder what they would find annoying with how
>> the program currently works.
>
>Except it doesn't. To some developers, everything is obvious, so the
>documentation will just say "do this the obvious way". They won't even
>consider the possibility that it could be non-obvious to somebody else.
>
>Kevin Kofler

Another +100 Kevin.

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Re: I'd like to get rid of pulseaudio but ...

[Kevin Kofler]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> One should waterboard the developer till he/she agrees to write the
> manpage.

That can't work at a distro level because upstream does not necessarily care
about Fedora, some upstreams even actively hate Fedora. We cannot force
upstream projects to do anything, we can only decide what to do within our
area of responsibility. Lack of documentation is an upstream issue and
should be handled upstream, it's not our job to fix it and we aren't in a
position to force upstream to fix it.

In addition, I think "manpages are required" is a silly policy, especially
for GUI apps.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: One (more) week slip of Fedora 11 Release

[Rex Dieter]

Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 09:16:39AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>> Axel Thimm wrote:

>> > Does it make sense to fold in the f11 updates into the next preview
>> > release? E.g. to move all current updates back to rawhide?
>> 
>> Little sense imo... no/little qa/testing, more work, more delay.
> 
> Maybe that's even a reason to pull them in now. After all these 600+
> packages will be on every F11 system from the first day, so if there
> is a problem, we better stumble over it now.

Sorry, let me be clearer, ... no/little qa/testing of the spins/images... 

-- Rex


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Re: WSJ - Article on Linux netbooks

[Kevin Kofler]

Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Well, I would prefer a different license for the scanner driver, but
> at least they do provide the source code.

AFAIK, it's not complete source code, it contains binary objects.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: git & less/vim

[Brian Ericson]

Thanks for both the "less" guidance and the EDITOR tip!

Assigning the EDITOR to vim fixes the "git commit" issue (Gentoo assigns 
EDITOR by default).


I think I've got "less" figured out -- Gentoo exports LESS='-R -M 
--shift 5' (which overrides Git's value/default value).  I'd gotten far 
enough to see that this variable affected git's paging in Gentoo before 
posting, but when I tried it on Fedora mistakenly set it without 
exporting it, so it didn't carry through to git's invocation of less 
(colleague of mine laughed and said he likes to ask that as an interview 
question -- "what's the difference between a shell variable and an 
envirnoment variable?").


Your mentioning of Fedora's Git version (which is much newer than 
Ubuntu's 1.6.0.4) reminds me that I'm pining for either Fedora's being 
at 1.6.3.1 (like Gentoo is) or Git's on git.repo to update their 
repodata so I can use theirs instead.


Also, only marginally related:  tracking this down, I noticed that 
/usr/share/doc/git-/config.txt is fontified in Vim when using 
Gentoo but not when using Fedora.  Something else to figure out...  (Who 
knew distributions could be so markedly different? ;) )


On 05/29/2009 11:55 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:

Brian Ericson wrote:
   

Anyone know how to get git working properly with less and vim?
Specifically:

* less does not "clear" (revert) the screen properly after commands
like "git log" and "git diff"
 

[...]
   

Both of these work properly in Gentoo (and vim -- but not less --
works properly in Ubuntu), but it's not obvious to me what's
different between the distros to account for the differing
behavior...
 


The difference is likely that Fedora is shipping a more recent version
of git than Ubuntu and upstream git has seen a few changes regarding
the pager handling.

Check out the core.pager setting in the git-config manpage.  You can
set this a number of ways, using the LESS or GIT_PAGER environment
variables, or the core.pager config setting.  By default, git pass the
options FSRX to less.  The -X option is what prevents less from
clearing the screen, but using -F also causes this in my testing
(which I found confusing...).

If it were me, I'd set the LESS variable and exclude FX, e.g:

 export LESS="-RS"

(See the less man page for the options you might want to set.

If you use GIT_PAGER or the core.pager setting, you will have to use
slightly odd syntax to override the LESS environment var that git will
set, e.g.:

 export GIT_PAGER='less -+$LESS -RS'

or

 git config --global core.pager 'less -+$LESS -RS'

This is described in the git-config manpage.

   

* vim isn't using the git extensions/file types for commands like "git
commit"
 


On F-10, this should "Just Work" as vim-7.2 has the needed syntax
files included.  Is your EDITOR var set to vim?

   
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Samba and Windows7 (a comment to an article)

[Leslie Satenstein]

Windows 7 does not do play well with a Linux network running Samba.
Unless you want to update your entire Linux network to the latest
version of Samba (and were not sure that will work) you will not be
able to join your Windows 7 machine to a Samba domain. Did Microsoft do
this by design?

Anyone verify that F11, or Ubuntu works with W7?

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