Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Natan Yellin aan...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: Mark wrote: To all other ppl. please keep the usability list included since this really is something they should be aware of. Keep in mind that cross-posting to multiple lists sucks for everyone who is not a member of all of them because they'll get bounces pointing that out, and there's a fair chance that they won't get moderator approval and ever appear. True. and they are apparently afraid that my idea gets through because i have been put on moderation. feel free to do whatever you think is right. at this moment i'm sick of gnome. As far as I can tell, you're disappointed with the way that the Fedora community has responded to your opinion. Instead of trying to create a fight or drag this issue upstream, why don't you just use another distribution? Why did you mailed this to me only and not the lists. O well, i said it in this thread but you probably didn't read it. I don't blame you.. there are about 250 messages in this thread ^_^ To the subject. I said that i did find ubuntu better then fedora and that i did use it but i prefer the RPM system and in those distributions i like fedora the most. My top 2 list is: 1. Fedora 2. Ubuntu And i keep swapping between those 2. Right now i need fedora because of a development project and i'm more familiar with rpm then i am with debs. specially on repairing an RPM issue. repairing a deb issue is a lot more painful. That's why i use fedora and that's why i don't switch to another os (for now). I also find rpm to be more flexible to use then deb but that might be because i didn't do much deb devel stuff and did rpm devel stuff (rebuilding and making rpms/debs). The best case for me would be a ubuntu using the rpm structure instead of deb. btw. lets NOT start flaming about the advantages and disadvantages of rpm vs deb. i'm well aware of those! So that's why. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Olav Vitters o...@bkor.dhs.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:02:26PM +0100, Mark wrote: To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts): http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0 [..] Now on topic. Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me if i'm wrong on any of them) 1. Somewhere in 2003 or 2004 it is decided for whatever reason to make the spatial mode in nautilus and put it as the default mode. To my knowledge no research is done if people even wanted that. it just got pushed through there throat and they are expected to just take it in not spit it out. We are now (and a lot of users back then) spitting that decision out and clear that bad taste. Nearly all gnome based Please keep it constructive. Above comparison is not. You will likely get heated responses because of it (see also below). distributions do the same and the people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode. You provide no basis for that statement. No basis.. do i need one? Look at Ubuntu and all other distros that provide gnome and see how much of them use the browser or spatial mode. 2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it: Meritocracy with a dictator like taste. Please don't make such loaded comparisons if you want to continue to post to a GNOME mailing list. See http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct. I've read most of the thread on the Fedora mailing list. I am not interested in a repeat. It's just an observation and seems to be true till this moment. 3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the A few votes on a mailing list. This has been dismissed already. 4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at That is not true. Then give me a link where that disision is made otherwise i see it as true. 5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns out there is one already: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628 Just general FYI: Discussion is not appreciated on (bgo) bugreports (should be done elsewhere, e.g. in a mailing list), so please do not add comments about things that have been said before. The purpose of a bugreport is to discuss how the bug should be fixed (which in above bugreport would just be a config change). I don't agree on that. i even saw ppl on the gnome bugzilla (developers!) telling the other users to post it to the mailing list(s) as well to raise awareness. And i think i did that. 6. Convincing people.. yea possible but is FOUR (yes 4!) FREAKING YEARS not proof enough that there decision was wrong. If that doesn't convince them, again mainly or even only Alexander Larson, then they can simply not be convinced in this subject. Baseless statement. In your mind the decision is wrong. However, you even haven't convinced everyone of that fact. This was already mentioned on the Fedora mailing list. Not only in my mind. the majority agrees with me that browser mode should be the default. And to give that a base. read this full list and search on google. 7. This is a conclusion again about the community. A few months ago Max Spevack came to my school to hold a presentation about linux, I'm not sure what this has to do with usabil...@gnome.org. Please be concise. That is true. A very good example of the bad community direction is, to name someone again, Rahul. He always points you to your mistakes (fine in a way) but never adds (not in my experience) something constructive or helpful always a link to a wiki of somekind. Take that off list (at least for anything @gnome.org). Also true but kinda hard when cross posting. And for this entire issue where i made this thread for in the first place. Don't expect me to be silent now. I will be vocal about this. fedora has a freedom sign in it's logo so make that a reality! Suggest to be constructive. Just vocal won't be appreciated. I have been constructive. That didn't help much so time to put it in a higher gear. What helps: determine what usability thought was behind the spatial mode. Then perform multiple real usability studies to show that for an unbiased person spatial mode causes more problems than browser mode. I think the most you could ask of me is what was done to get spatial in it to begin with. They didn't seem to conduct a study so i won't do that to revert there change. Also to conduct a study takes weeks or months and by that time this discussion is cooled down and put in the fridge. So your actually asking me to spend months conducting a study to
Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 08:14:18PM +0100, Mark wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Olav Vitters o...@bkor.dhs.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:02:26PM +0100, Mark wrote: To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts): http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0 [..] Now on topic. Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me if i'm wrong on any of them) 1. Somewhere in 2003 or 2004 it is decided for whatever reason to make the spatial mode in nautilus and put it as the default mode. To my knowledge no research is done if people even wanted that. it just got pushed through there throat and they are expected to just take it in not spit it out. We are now (and a lot of users back then) spitting that decision out and clear that bad taste. Nearly all gnome based Please keep it constructive. Above comparison is not. You will likely get heated responses because of it (see also below). distributions do the same and the people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode. You provide no basis for that statement. No basis.. do i need one? Look at Ubuntu and all other distros that provide gnome and see how much of them use the browser or spatial mode. people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode is your interpretation. Just because people use browser mode doesn't make it better than spatial mode. Nor a distro default means that everyone agrees. 2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it: Meritocracy with a dictator like taste. Please don't make such loaded comparisons if you want to continue to post to a GNOME mailing list. See http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct. I've read most of the thread on the Fedora mailing list. I am not interested in a repeat. It's just an observation and seems to be true till this moment. Whatever you call it, it is not appreciated. 3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the A few votes on a mailing list. This has been dismissed already. 4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at That is not true. Then give me a link where that disision is made otherwise i see it as true. That is the other way around. You want a change, you do the work. 5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns out there is one already: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628 Just general FYI: Discussion is not appreciated on (bgo) bugreports (should be done elsewhere, e.g. in a mailing list), so please do not add comments about things that have been said before. The purpose of a bugreport is to discuss how the bug should be fixed (which in above bugreport would just be a config change). I don't agree on that. i even saw ppl on the gnome bugzilla (developers!) telling the other users to post it to the mailing list(s) as well to raise awareness. And i think i did that. It does not matter if you agree. I'm advising how to behave on GNOME Bugzilla as bugmaster of GNOME bugzilla. You can raise awareness, yes. And finally that can be pointed out on the bugreport. What I meant is having everyone add loads of 'me too' comments. It makes the bugreport difficult to read. 6. Convincing people.. yea possible but is FOUR (yes 4!) FREAKING YEARS not proof enough that there decision was wrong. If that doesn't convince them, again mainly or even only Alexander Larson, then they can simply not be convinced in this subject. Baseless statement. In your mind the decision is wrong. However, you even haven't convinced everyone of that fact. This was already mentioned on the Fedora mailing list. Not only in my mind. the majority agrees with me that browser mode should be the default. And to give that a base. read this full list and search on google. Only a few people responded to that. On Google, I see enough people how love spatial mode. What helps: determine what usability thought was behind the spatial mode. Then perform multiple real usability studies to show that for an unbiased person spatial mode causes more problems than browser mode. I think the most you could ask of me is what was done to get spatial in it to begin with. They didn't seem to conduct a study so i won't do that to revert there change. Also to conduct a study takes weeks or months and by that time this discussion is cooled down and put in the fridge. So your actually asking me to spend months conducting a study to just be silent here. And so if i did a study what then? In my
