Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Tim wrote: > On Mon, 2009-07-27 at 02:05 +0500, gil...@altern.org wrote: > And we've all be wondering why Windows doesn't "just work" for the last > decade I'm not. Their main problem was secrecy reigned even inside the box. Everybody was developing its own little thing without seeing all the code. Hence, the mess. But this might change and, in order to gain market share, since the whole world is so much used to Microsoft products, Linux has to do better. Microsoft's problems don't make ours less important. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On Mon, 2009-07-27 at 02:05 +0500, gil...@altern.org wrote: > So far, Fedora is the one that worked best for me. I'm sure, with a 3 > page list of do and don't, most Windows users could get it running. > The question is "Would they go through a 3 page list?" Knowing that > there will be a whole lot more to get accustomed to, wouldn't they > wonder why things aren't done right without the do and don't? And we've all be wondering why Windows doesn't "just work" for the last decade, or so... And why it needs all those megabytes of help files, and a website full of, often useless and function-breaking, solutions. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: > I guess you do not understand the difference between Red Hat and > Fedora. The two are not interchangeable. I expect Red Hat to acquire > a user base through Red Hat Enterprise Linux. CentOS and Scientific > Linux are two clones of RH Enterprise Linux, without the support. to clarify your statement, 'centos' and 'scientific linux' are not supported by 'red hat' tech support. speaking in behalf of 'scientific linux', 'scientific linux' has it's own very good group support group. > When we fix problems, the fixes go back upstream, so hopefully other > distributions do not run into the same problem. Sometimes we write > the documentation that gets included in later Fedora and other > distributions. in a summary, fedora is a 'beta' for red hat enterprise linux. -- peace out. tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
gil...@altern.org wrote: > Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: > >> While it is important to you, and important to companies like >> Red Hat, > > So, it's important for Red Hat and until now, your point was that it is > irrelevant to Fedora because Fedora is for experts. So you expect RHEL to > acquire a user base by people getting use to it through CentOS, I suppose. > I guess you do not understand the difference between Red Hat and Fedora. The two are not interchangeable. I expect Red Hat to acquire a user base through Red Hat Enterprise Linux. CentOS and Scientific Linux are two clones of RH Enterprise Linux, without the support. > I've never used CentOS but, getting stuck with the likes of GIMP 2,2 does > sound very appealing to me as a desktop user. > I don't know - it probably appeals to the corporate users because of the support available from Red Hat. > OTOH, I've tried Mint, Knoppix, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, PCLinuxOS, > Slackware and quite a few others, I suppose. > > So far, Fedora is the one that worked best for me. I'm sure, with a 3 page > list of do and don't, most Windows users could get it running. The > question is "Would they go through a 3 page list?" Knowing that there will > be a whole lot more to get accustomed to, wouldn't they wonder why things > aren't done right without the do and don't? > Take a look at Mandriva - it is a lot like Fedora, but without most of the things that bother you. It started as a i686 fork of Red Hat when the i686 machines were state of the art. You keep thinking that Fedora is aimed at people coming over from Windows. If they were a "geek", they might feel at home here. But for a user that wants things to "just work" and is only interesting in getting office work done, or browsing the web, there are better off with another distribution. Fedora getting a large market share would go a long way to drop Linux's overall market share. Let me try this a different way. You are pushing for changes in the direction of Fedora that most of the Fedora community do not want it to take. We do not want a distribution aimed at the average computer. I can just picture the results when an update breaks things. We want people that try to solve the problem, or at lease report it, and do not act like it is the end of the world because they can not do x, y, or z while the problem is worked out. These are the type of people that we encourage to stick around help work out the bugs. This is the group Fedora is targeted at. Not the average user. Most of the things you are complaining about are because of who the distribution is targeted at. When we fix problems, the fixes go back upstream, so hopefully other distributions do not run into the same problem. Sometimes we write the documentation that gets included in later Fedora and other distributions. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: > While it is important to you, and important to companies like > RedHat, So, it's important for Red Hat and until now, your point was that it is irrelevant to Fedora because Fedora is for experts. So you expect RHEL to acquire a user base by people getting use to it through CentOS, I suppose. I've never used CentOS but, getting stuck with the likes of GIMP 2,2 does sound very appealing to me as a desktop user. OTOH, I've tried Mint, Knoppix, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, PCLinuxOS, Slackware and quite a few others, I suppose. So far, Fedora is the one that worked best for me. I'm sure, with a 3 page list of do and don't, most Windows users could get it running. The question is "Would they go through a 3 page list?" Knowing that there will be a whole lot more to get accustomed to, wouldn't they wonder why things aren't done right without the do and don't? After a few modifications, I can now watch Radio-Canada's WMV better than I ever could, QuickTime at Apple's site(1), K3B, as always, burns CDs and DVDs, etc. As for the other bugs, most minor, other distros have them too. (1) You have to find the urls on the pages... when they're available. > this is not the forum to be discussing it. If you look at the "To" header for this list, you'll see "Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora." Did you note "encouragement"? To me this doesn't mean only chanting "Alleluia!", whatever the product looks like. It means stopping discouraging people from using Fedora by pretending it's only for experts and encouraging them to join in by making the product easier to use... without making the experts furious by dumming it down. This is the most general forum there is for Fedora. I know of none that is intended for discussing market share and, if there was, it seems there would be nobody on it because nobody gives a damn. This discussion about market share is getting nowhere. It's just noise, so this will probably be the end of it, as far as I am concerned. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Timothy Murphy wrote: > David Boles wrote: > >> Fedora has its place. Fedora is a distribution for the user that is >> smarter that what they are doing. The user that can solve a little >> problem. > ... >> (K)Ubuntu has its place. They are distribution for the 'install it and >> forget it' crowd. They do all the setups and configuration and all of >> the nanny hand holding. > > Is that the general view? > I ran Kubuntu on one laptop for a time, > and it seemed 99% identical to Fedora + KDE. > In fact I couldn't tell which I was using most of the time. > I went back to Fedora on this laptop > because it was less trouble to run one distribution. I read many other lists and several Linux oriented blogs and forums. IMO what I said was the general view of those users. One common thought though out was "I want something that 'just works' and I don't want to have to hunt and search to fix things that don't". "So that is why I switched from 1. The difference between KDE and Gnome strikes me as far greater, > at least as far as the user is concerned, > than any difference between distributions. > > 2. I don't think distributions matter nearly as much as they used to, > with so many things being run over the web, > even in a home system. > Even Linux vs Windows is becoming much less important. IMO the KDE, in general, provided by KDE oriented distros is 'better' than the KDE provided by GNOME oriented distro. And that is my opinion only. I do not use KDE. However I have seen *great* strides here at Fedora with KDE. Rex Deiter(sp? last name?) and all have done amazing things of late with KDE in Fedora over at the kde-fedora repo. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
gil...@altern.org wrote: > > I suppose you're not both wrong, but there are some considerations: > > 1) some peole need a story to get interest into a subject. > That is not usually the case on support lists. > 2) teckies often write short messages and then come back with precisions. > I prefer to give all the information in one shot. > This is fine, as long as it is reverent information, and only on one problem. Mixing several problems in one message hinders solving them because you end up with threads for each problem intertwined, making it harder to follow. > 3) market share is important to me and I don't believe we can say things > such as: "Ubuntu will take care of market share". What if, for example, > Shuttleworth decided to scrap the project tomorrow? > While it is important to you, and important to companies like RedHat, this is not the forum to be discussing it. This is for solving technical problems with Fedora. Fedora is the wrong distribution for gaining market share. It is not aimed at general users. It is more a test bed for new ideas. These new ideas sometimes do not work out. t is not uncommon for them to still be in development or testing to see what works when used by people other ten the developers. One of the worst things that could happen to Linux would be if Fedora had a large "market share". But there is no reason that Fedora has to be usable to the general public. Linux is all about choice. Pick a distribution that is targeted at what you need from your computer. You have choices like Mandriva and CentOS besides Ubuntu if you are after a more stable platform. This is NOT Windows, where one distribution tries to be all things for all people. > Besides, Ubuntu is on 6 months releases just as Fedora, so not having to > upgrade is not a feature offered by Ubuntu anymore than Fedora. Of course, > there's a long term release, but I don't believe it's the one most newbies > are using. > > Finally, market share has a lot to do with technical considerations. > But what does market share have to do with Fedora?If anything, Fedora is aimed at a nitch market. It appears to be doing a good job of filling the needs of that market. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
David Boles wrote: > Fedora has its place. Fedora is a distribution for the user that is > smarter that what they are doing. The user that can solve a little > problem. ... > (K)Ubuntu has its place. They are distribution for the 'install it and > forget it' crowd. They do all the setups and configuration and all of > the nanny hand holding. Is that the general view? I ran Kubuntu on one laptop for a time, and it seemed 99% identical to Fedora + KDE. In fact I couldn't tell which I was using most of the time. I went back to Fedora on this laptop because it was less trouble to run one distribution. 1. The difference between KDE and Gnome strikes me as far greater, at least as far as the user is concerned, than any difference between distributions. 2. I don't think distributions matter nearly as much as they used to, with so many things being run over the web, even in a home system. Even Linux vs Windows is becoming much less important. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
gil...@altern.org wrote: > But there's one *stoupid* thing that really puzzles me. When I rebooted > after installation, I noticed there was no pause for choosing the kernel. > I thought maybe that was because there was only one kernel installed. Isn't this just the timeout setting in /etc/grub.conf ? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Geoff wrote: > And *that* answer does not work. My home dir was already 'user:user'. > I have also confirmed the chcon context is now > 'unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_dir_t:s0' for /home/user > > And it doesn't work! Still get the error and no login. Sorry it didn't work. I'd like to help you more but my technical competences are unfortunately very limited. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > Very long emails are less likely to be read, especially when they're so > discursive. You seem to be more interested in topics such as market > share than actual technical content Mikkel L. Ellertson thinks the same. I suppose you're not both wrong, but there are some considerations: 1) some peole need a story to get interest into a subject. 2) teckies often write short messages and then come back with precisions. I prefer to give all the information in one shot. 3) market share is important to me and I don't believe we can say things such as: "Ubuntu will take care of market share". What if, for example, Shuttleworth decided to scrap the project tomorrow? Besides, Ubuntu is on 6 months releases just as Fedora, so not having to upgrade is not a feature offered by Ubuntu anymore than Fedora. Of course, there's a long term release, but I don't believe it's the one most newbies are using. Finally, market share has a lot to do with technical considerations. But I'll try to keep your remark in mind. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Suvayu Ali wrote: > *ubuntu is not that install and forget if you want to do something > serious. I use Fedora 11 at home and Xubuntu 8.04 for work, and every > time I try out something not conventional Fedora works flawlessly > whereas Xubuntu fails big time. I hate it, but the management at our lab > prefers that. > > Just my 2 cents. Add mine too. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Suvayu Ali wrote: > On Saturday 25 July 2009 08:34 AM, David Boles wrote: >> >> (K)Ubuntu has its place. They are distribution for the 'install it and >> forget it' crowd. They do all the setups and configuration and all of >> the nanny hand holding. This 'install it and forget it' crowd then sits >> in front of the monitor and 'surfs the web'. They play their mp3s. They >> watch their videos. >> >> These users, the 'install it and forget it' crowd, are the ones that >> show up on this list with the 'this is crap' and 'my stuff >> don't' work!" rants and whines. Notice the excessive punctuation. >> :-) >> > > *ubuntu is not that install and forget if you want to do something > serious. I use Fedora 11 at home and Xubuntu 8.04 for work, and every > time I try out something not conventional Fedora works flawlessly > whereas Xubuntu fails big time. I hate it, but the management at our lab > prefers that. > > Just my 2 cents. I understand what you mean. If you read what I said when I said "install and forget" it was Joe/Jane Average User that (K)Ubuntu is made for. Mostly. Not power users or professionals. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
gil...@altern.org wrote: R. G. Newbury wrote: > Even better are the stupid messes where there is NO default setting to > change. Google 'kstartupconfig4 error 3' No-one, and I mean no-one knows > what causes this, or how to fix it. It seems somebody at the Fedora Forum had the same problem and solved it: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=YxD&num=100&q=%22kstartupconfig%22+%22error+3%22+solved&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en|lang_fr http://minilien.com/?s9wh5OnNYI You might also want to try without the "Solved" keyword. There are more results and sometimes people forget to add "Solved". > It is the lack of documentation which makes Fedora (and Mandriva, and > Ubuntu) an OS for experts only. It could indeed be better but geeks will always come up with the right keyworks and show you the solution was there, somewhere. It's easier to find the right keywords when you know the solution :) I wasn't searching using "Solved" and the only keyword 'kstartupconfig4' And *that* answer does not work. My home dir was already 'user:user'. I have also confirmed the chcon context is now 'unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_dir_t:s0' for /home/user And it doesn't work! Still get the error and no login. Geoff -- Please let me know if anything I say offends you. I may wish to offend you again in the future. Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes." -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On Saturday 25 July 2009 08:34 AM, David Boles wrote: (K)Ubuntu has its place. They are distribution for the 'install it and forget it' crowd. They do all the setups and configuration and all of the nanny hand holding. This 'install it and forget it' crowd then sits in front of the monitor and 'surfs the web'. They play their mp3s. They watch their videos. These users, the 'install it and forget it' crowd, are the ones that show up on this list with the 'this is crap' and 'my stuff don't' work!" rants and whines. Notice the excessive punctuation. :-) *ubuntu is not that install and forget if you want to do something serious. I use Fedora 11 at home and Xubuntu 8.04 for work, and every time I try out something not conventional Fedora works flawlessly whereas Xubuntu fails big time. I hate it, but the management at our lab prefers that. Just my 2 cents. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
R. G. Newbury wrote: > > > > It is the lack of documentation which makes Fedora (and Mandriva, and > > Ubuntu) an OS for experts only. > > >You forgot Windows, OS x, and a few more. >Mikkel You are right. I did! Geoff -- Please let me know if anything I say offends you. I may wish to offend you again in the future. Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes." -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Very long emails are less likely to be read, especially when they're so discursive. You seem to be more interested in topics such as market share than actual technical content, which is the focus of this list. If you have a technical question or comment, try to make it succintly. Or maybe this is the wrong medium for what you want to say. Perhaps you should try blogging as an alternative. Just my 2 cents. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Saturday 25 July 2009 06:11:30 gil...@altern.org wrote: >> jack craig wrote: Really, pausing for a few seconds still seems to me like the best option. The way out is easier than I thought but when a newbie comes to Linux and he's already afraid because everybody says that Fedora is for experts only, he might not look further and give up. >>> no pain, no gain, ... >> and no market share. > > Market share has nothing specific to do with Fedora. Ubuntu should be distro > of > choice for newbies and market share gaining, not Fedora. If Ubuntu is also > configured not to have that two second pause in grub, you should ask *them* > to > fix it, since they have a lot of newbies who might get into trouble without > it. > > If a newbie tries Fedora and gets disappointed, the problem is not the > default > configuration choices of Fedora, but the user choice of the distro. > > There are different levels of user-friendlyness. Fedora is mainly targeting > users who are already devoted to Linux, so its default configuration tries to > be seasoned-user-friendly, not newbie-friendly. Better go whine on the Ubuntu > list for such defaults. Fedora is simply not the distro that should be used > for advertizing Linux to newbies and gaining potential market share. > > Being a Linux user since RH 6.2 days, I am quite happy with the default > config > of grub in Fedora, and I guess most Fedora users are also fine with it. Those > who are not are usually proficient enough to customize it themselves to meet > their needs. I have followed this thread inspire of myself. :-) Each of you makes good points and offer good information. All of which the OP refuses to take into consideration. Plainly and simply said. (Puts on flame proof suit here). Fedora has its place. Fedora is a distribution for the user that is smarter that what they are doing. The user that can solve a little problem. A user that, with some suggestions and pointers, can solve a more difficult problem. A user that will, after trying these suggestion and tips, see what could be a bug and reports it. A user that works with the developer(s) to correct the bug. For themselves and for others. (K)Ubuntu has its place. They are distribution for the 'install it and forget it' crowd. They do all the setups and configuration and all of the nanny hand holding. This 'install it and forget it' crowd then sits in front of the monitor and 'surfs the web'. They play their mp3s. They watch their videos. These users, the 'install it and forget it' crowd, are the ones that show up on this list with the 'this is crap' and 'my stuff don't' work!" rants and whines. Notice the excessive punctuation. :-) Or sometimes the write blog entries to this list. Like karl did. And Karl 1.2 is doing today. Nuf Sed. /Plunk -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On Saturday 25 July 2009 06:11:30 gil...@altern.org wrote: > jack craig wrote: > >> Really, pausing for a few seconds still seems to me like the best > >> option. > >> The way out is easier than I thought but when a newbie comes to Linux > >> and > >> he's already afraid because everybody says that Fedora is for experts > >> only, he might not look further and give up. > > > > no pain, no gain, ... > > and no market share. Market share has nothing specific to do with Fedora. Ubuntu should be distro of choice for newbies and market share gaining, not Fedora. If Ubuntu is also configured not to have that two second pause in grub, you should ask *them* to fix it, since they have a lot of newbies who might get into trouble without it. If a newbie tries Fedora and gets disappointed, the problem is not the default configuration choices of Fedora, but the user choice of the distro. There are different levels of user-friendlyness. Fedora is mainly targeting users who are already devoted to Linux, so its default configuration tries to be seasoned-user-friendly, not newbie-friendly. Better go whine on the Ubuntu list for such defaults. Fedora is simply not the distro that should be used for advertizing Linux to newbies and gaining potential market share. Being a Linux user since RH 6.2 days, I am quite happy with the default config of grub in Fedora, and I guess most Fedora users are also fine with it. Those who are not are usually proficient enough to customize it themselves to meet their needs. Best, :-) Marko -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
gil...@altern.org wrote: > But there's one *stoupid* thing that really puzzles me. When I rebooted > after installation, I noticed there was no pause for choosing the kernel. > I thought maybe that was because there was only one kernel installed. [the word is 'stupid', but i understand why of your spelling] this is cause by how grub's boot configuration file '/boot/grub/grub.conf', is set up by default. normally, you will find with in 'grub.conf'; default=0 timeout=5 splashimage=(hd0,0)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz hiddenmenu default = default boot kernel. if you have more than one distribution or more than one kernel, you change the number to match which kernel/distribution you wish to boot. timeout = delay time before grub starts kernel boot. delay time in seconds splashimage = the graphic display you see when grub is booting. you can change this to a different image, remove it entirely, or comment out with '#' at start of line hiddenmenu = hides the selection menu. hides startup menu from view. pressing reveals menu, where you select what you want to boot splashimage, hiddenmenu can be commented out with '#' or removed. in each 'kernel' line, you will see 'rhgb' and 'quiet'. remove 'rhgb' to for a 'plain text' menu. remove 'quiet' to see output lines as kernel boots and other loading proceeds. > But, then, a new kernel arrived and nothing changed. "What if the new > kernel doesn't work", when a kernel is upgraded, new kernel is added to 'grub.conf' and placed at top position of selections. this is where you use options of setting up how grub is configured to boot. use this link to find more on operation of grub; http://grub.org/?q=en/node/2 > Then, yesterday, came a new kernel with a bunch of updates. I installed > all of them. "You need to reboot", I was told. I did, got into a 800 x 600 > login screen and never could log in in graphic mode. sounds like you were dropped to runlevel 3. after login, entering 'startx' at command line prompt will start x server. in file '/etc/inittab' you will find a line 'id:n:initdefault:'. 'n' is a value that is explained in section above it. > Now, imagine a newbie coming to Fedora. A selection of upgrades is > suggested. He has absolutely no idea of what is what and just clicks > "upgrade everything". He might not even be aware that a new kernel has > been installed. this is all a part of learning linux. sad, but true. because it is true, there are tech support list, like this one, for most, if not all, linux distributions. plus, there is 'google linux'. > He's asked to reboot, he does, then can't log in anymore. The upgrade has > broken his system!!! What's the solution? press tab at start of boot and select previous kernel. hope previous kernel is ok with upgrades. > If he's not completely pissed off at this stage, he will boot with his > LiveCD and seek help. He will, I suppose, be told to log in as root and... > with vi, modify grub. Of course, the experts giving him this advice won't > teach him how to use vi, you know command mode, insert mode and so on. > Newbies have to RTFM!!! or ask on tsl, search on google, and check vim [aka vi] web site; http://www.vim.org/ > But newbie won't RTFM, he'll just fdisk /MBR . Another user lost for Linux. that is an unfortunate event that does happen. > I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a > pause for choosing the kernel. see above. > What's the name of the guy responsible for this mess? Can you imagine every programmer who writes software for linux and does not bother to write a documentation, because he thinks his short comments are adequate. > But loudmouths keep on evangelizing that 1% of the market share after 18 > years is a proof that Linux is doing really good... it is higher than 1%. also, there are many web sites and isp's that hide they are using linux by throwing out ms os identification. > Who are these everything-is-perfect loudmouths working for? Linux? Really? > I can't help but wonder, despite the help they may provide on various > groups to make themselves a reputation, if those people are anything but > Microsoft/Apple shills. you would think so, but many of them are 'msbsos wiz kids' that have moved into linux and think they are now 'linux guru's'. some are, many are not, and they still use msbsos. > Linux needs a better market share and it could get it easily without > making geeks angry. it is geeks that makes 'new to linux users' angry and disappointed. -- peace out. tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/H
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
jack craig wrote: >> Really, pausing for a few seconds still seems to me like the best >> option. >> The way out is easier than I thought but when a newbie comes to Linux >> and >> he's already afraid because everybody says that Fedora is for experts >> only, he might not look further and give up. >> >> > no pain, no gain, ... and no market share. When making the gain easier has no disadvantages, it's better to give some gain before the pain as an incentive. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
R. G. Newbury wrote: > On 07/24/2009 06:29 PM, gil...@altern.org wrote > >> I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was >> a >> pause for choosing the kernel. If they don't like this setting, they >> wouldn't have to use vi, just the Administration menu. All it takes is a >> few seconds and, thereafter, they would never have to suffer a pause >> when >> they reboot every six month. >> >> What's the name of the guy responsible for this mess? Can you imagine >> proselytizing Mac users and having to make sure they understand they >> will >> have to change a default setting, otherwise, they may be locked out of >> their system? > > Even better are the stupid messes where there is NO default setting to > change. Google 'kstartupconfig4 error 3' No-one, and I mean no-one knows > what causes this, or how to fix it. It seems somebody at the Fedora Forum had the same problem and solved it: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=YxD&num=100&q=%22kstartupconfig%22+%22error+3%22+solved&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en|lang_fr http://minilien.com/?s9wh5OnNYI You might also want to try without the "Solved" keyword. There are more results and sometimes people forget to add "Solved". > It is the lack of documentation which makes Fedora (and Mandriva, and > Ubuntu) an OS for experts only. It could indeed be better but geeks will always come up with the right keyworks and show you the solution was there, somewhere. It's easier to find the right keywords when you know the solution :) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
R. G. Newbury wrote: > > It is the lack of documentation which makes Fedora (and Mandriva, and > Ubuntu) an OS for experts only. > You forgot Windows, OS x, and a few more. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On 07/24/2009 09:43 PM, gil...@altern.org wrote: I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a pause for choosing the kernel. When booting, if you keep pressed the SHIFT key, you will have the grub menu. Interesting. It worked but only after a reset: on the reboot it just blocked and stayed dead. This instruction would certainly get a newbie out of a hole but, most probably, they will try the enter or arrow keys, and this gives no result. Maybe there should be a menu suggesting to use shift to get the grub options? :) Really, pausing for a few seconds still seems to me like the best option. The way out is easier than I thought but when a newbie comes to Linux and he's already afraid because everybody says that Fedora is for experts only, he might not look further and give up. no pain, no gain, ... -- jack craig ja...@linuxlighthouse.com 831-684-1375 (Office) 831-596-6924 (cell) IM: jackcraigaptos (AIM) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
>> I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was >> a >> pause for choosing the kernel. > > When booting, if you keep pressed the SHIFT key, you will have the grub > menu. Interesting. It worked but only after a reset: on the reboot it just blocked and stayed dead. This instruction would certainly get a newbie out of a hole but, most probably, they will try the enter or arrow keys, and this gives no result. Maybe there should be a menu suggesting to use shift to get the grub options? :) Really, pausing for a few seconds still seems to me like the best option. The way out is easier than I thought but when a newbie comes to Linux and he's already afraid because everybody says that Fedora is for experts only, he might not look further and give up. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On 07/24/2009 06:29 PM, gil...@altern.org wrote I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a pause for choosing the kernel. If they don't like this setting, they wouldn't have to use vi, just the Administration menu. All it takes is a few seconds and, thereafter, they would never have to suffer a pause when they reboot every six month. What's the name of the guy responsible for this mess? Can you imagine proselytizing Mac users and having to make sure they understand they will have to change a default setting, otherwise, they may be locked out of their system? Even better are the stupid messes where there is NO default setting to change. Google 'kstartupconfig4 error 3' No-one, and I mean no-one knows what causes this, or how to fix it. (Well, if there IS a 'great expert' who knows this, he's not talking). And what happens when you get this error? You cannot log in as a normal user. So I've been forced to log in as root for well over a month now on this laptop. (Quick! Get the smelling salts! A grey-bearded pony-tailed guru just fainted with an attack of the vapours!) And the problem has existed since I "upgraded" to F11...I suspect it has something to do with the fact that the /home partition was retained from F10 and that the chcon context might have something to do with it, but then, like pulseaudio, chcon has entirely too minimal a set of documentation. And I didn't even know chcon existed until a week ago, when it turned up as the possible source/answer to a completely different question about httpd. It is the lack of documentation which makes Fedora (and Mandriva, and Ubuntu) an OS for experts only. Geoff -- Please let me know if anything I say offends you. I may wish to offend you again in the future. Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes." -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
On 07/24/2009 05:51 PM, Federico Sebastián De Malmayne Duppa wrote: I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a pause for choosing the kernel. When booting, if you keep pressed the SHIFT key, you will have the grub menu. Any other key may work, but shift was told to be the safest one. Or just modify /etc/grub.conf and remove the hidden menu option or increase the timeout value. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why Fedora is for experts only?
> I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a > pause for choosing the kernel. When booting, if you keep pressed the SHIFT key, you will have the grub menu. Any other key may work, but shift was told to be the safest one. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Why Fedora is for experts only?
My first post on this list was a comment on this passage at Distrowatch beginning by "The topic of CentOS": http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20090629 Fedora is plainly described as "broken" and "unstable"! Want something that works? Piggyback Red Hat on CentOS! And, of course, all over the place, in forums and mailing lists, some very dedicated loudmouths are spreading the news. They're experts, they know! And just don't tell them Fedora could be made more user-friendly, you would ruin their geek experience! I'm no expert, but I've installed quite a few distributions along the years and Fedora certainly isn't worst that any other. Despite using the 64 bit version, it is neither broken nor unstable. Many of the bugs it has are also present in other distributions where you've also got to go application shopping because some default ones are lame or broken. (In Fedora, Totem and Brasero, for instance.) But there's one *stoupid* thing that really puzzles me. When I rebooted after installation, I noticed there was no pause for choosing the kernel. I thought maybe that was because there was only one kernel installed. But, then, a new kernel arrived and nothing changed. "What if the new kernel doesn't work", I thought. Of course, my hardware being already recognized, there was little chance of this happening, but why take chances to save a few seconds at boot time? I went to System, Administration, Bootloader and changed for a default of 8 seconds, which is the minimum required to have... 2 seconds to switch kernel. (At 5 seconds, there's still no pause.) Safety first! Thanks to Tim's good advice, I then chose to work with kmod-nvidia for my video card and then found some good explanations on rpmfusion to get rid of the Nouveau driver. I installed Compiz and so on. Lots of fun to eventually give some Mac users a ride for their money. Then, yesterday, came a new kernel with a bunch of updates. I installed all of them. "You need to reboot", I was told. I did, got into a 800 x 600 login screen and never could log in in graphic mode. I never thought the precaution I had taken would be useful so soon. Nowhere did I see any advice explaining that this default setting has been made by phonies whose only goal is to save a few seconds at boot time. The previous kernel worked as usual. The kmod update arrived less than 24h later. I upgraded. The new kernel now works fine. Now, imagine a newbie coming to Fedora. A selection of upgrades is suggested. He has absolutely no idea of what is what and just clicks "upgrade everything". He might not even be aware that a new kernel has been installed. He's asked to reboot, he does, then can't log in anymore. The upgrade has broken his system!!! What's the solution? If he's not completely pissed off at this stage, he will boot with his LiveCD and seek help. He will, I suppose, be told to log in as root and... with vi, modify grub. Of course, the experts giving him this advice won't teach him how to use vi, you know command mode, insert mode and so on. Newbies have to RTFM!!! But newbie won't RTFM, he'll just fdisk /MBR . Another user lost for Linux. I'm trying to figure out what our great experts would lose if there was a pause for choosing the kernel. If they don't like this setting, they wouldn't have to use vi, just the Administration menu. All it takes is a few seconds and, thereafter, they would never have to suffer a pause when they reboot every six month. What's the name of the guy responsible for this mess? Can you imagine proselytizing Mac users and having to make sure they understand they will have to change a default setting, otherwise, they may be locked out of their system? But loudmouths keep on evangelizing that 1% of the market share after 18 years is a proof that Linux is doing really good... Meanwhile on state televisions WMV is thriving, just as DOC and XLM formats in the bad old days. Who are these everything-is-perfect loudmouths working for? Linux? Really? I can't help but wonder, despite the help they may provide on various groups to make themselves a reputation, if those people are anything but Microsoft/Apple shills. Linux needs a better market share and it could get it easily without making geeks angry. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
