subject:"Call for vote\: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11"

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Dimi Paun d...@lattica.com wrote:
So what do we get for asking that we see this changed?
- snide remarks

In this thread..ive seen snide comments from multiple parties on both
sides. I've seen a round in the cycle of existing hostilities. There
are no saints here, we are all sinners. Keeping score of the assumed
intent of the multitude of emotional comments on one side or the other
is futile and serves no useful purpose. If you are keeping score of
snide comments, then you've already given up on a constructive
discussion. You have to be able to give everyone the benefit of the
doubt as to intent. The medium of email is excruciatingly poor at
communicating irrational emotive discourse. The subtle nuances of body
language, or vocal and facial ques which regulate the flow of face to
face conversations are not there to help us read intent with any
accuracy whatsoever.

- we are ask to produce numbers nobody can produce

In this thread, I have not seen the decision makers ask that numbers
be produced. I see numbers being produced by people to sustain their
own arguments and getting upset that other are critical of the
numbers. The numbers are a false premise, they shouldn't be debated,
they should be summarily ignored. To debate them gives credibility to
the idea that accurate numbers are going to impact the design, and no
one has come forward and promised that in this thread..

- we are sent on wild goose chances upstream when this
is a packages maintained by RH.

Yes this has happened in this thread. I have in fact done this myself
before and I still stand by it. If this change is going to be made is
going to be made as part of an upstream discussion around the design
goals of the default GNOME experience, a discussion broader in scope
than this one change.

I think the proponents of change do a disservice to their chosen cause
in choosing the argumentation they have so far. Trying to coerce a
change by hammering away with the blunt instruments of populism. It's
not going to work. Coercion is the wrong method and populist arguments
are the wrong tool. You have to persuade the decision-makers, and to
do that you have to understand how they prioritize and think. The
art of persuasion is a subtle science. It's brain surgery, not to be
performed with the hammer or rhetoric or with the pitchforks and
torches of populist appeal. You have to crawl inside the heads of
the people whose minds you are looking to change, and think like them.

But hey, these things happen, we can work around them. What's not cool
is the attitude that it's OK to diss the users. That just sucks the
fun out of being part of Fedora.

I think you are reading way to much into the responses of a a very
long and very heated discussion which this thread is but one chapter.
The exact same sort of thing could be said about it being uncool to
diss developers. There have certainty been posts in this thread which
could be read as dissing developers. I think we can all agree that
its uncool to diss people generally. I'll go further and say that
most people are going to screw up and when things get heated are going
to choose words poorly and end up writing something that is laced with
too much emotion and will be interpreted as a personal slight or
attack. The real trick is figuring out how to make it possible to
keep those mistakes from invoking another round of emotional responses
in a self-perpetuating cycle of over-reaction.

-jef

Oke, first thing first.
I subscribed to the gnome usability list and added that. this mail is
being send to them as well so therefore i include my original message.

My original message:
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey,

The question is simple:
Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Motivation:
A new window for each folder that i open is so painful!!
1. My taskbar fills up in notime each time i open a new folder
2. New features of nautilus: tabbed browsing! completely useless if
your not using the browser mode
3. Tabbed browsing (files/folders or web) is hot these days
4. It feels so.. old (windows 95? 3.11?)
just to name a few

Cross posted to the devel list because it's for the next fedora
version (currently in development thus the devel list)

Bug report: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477052 (wow! i
couldn't find an existing one for this! made one myself)

So, lets vote:

+1 from me

I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value).
All vote plz

Mark.

To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0

Now to react on the memory and cpu

Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008/12/20 David Nielsen gnomeu...@gmail.com:


 2008/12/20 Mark mark...@gmail.com


 And for this entire issue where i made this thread for in the first
 place. Don't expect me to be silent now. I will be vocal about this.
 fedora has a freedom sign in it's logo so make that a reality!

 And you remain with the freedom to change the setting manually, create your
 own spin with the setting changed by default. Your freedom however does not
 extend to throwing a hissy fit on the development list because you're
 preference is not the default. We have processes for feature goals and there
 is upstream GNOME to have this debate with, both will get you input on the
 idea without pissing the rest of us off.

 I used to have the browser mode activated out of habit, but now because you
 made it your mission to spam the devel list and attack developers, I have
 changed the setting back and you know what.. I love spatial.

Good for you.

 - David

Then i will, especially for you, explain why i included those 2 other
lists (3 in total now)

fodora-general list
-
this list is included because this concerns the general fedora public
and to give it a more then just developer attention

fedora-devel list
-
this list is included because is where features for new fedora
released belong. if you want it or not this thread belongs there as
well.

gnome usability list
-
it is a setting in nautilus that i want to see with a different
default value and it affects the usability (in a positive way) for
gnome so that's why i included this list

and i had: nautilus list
-
I first had this list included as well but somewhere it got dropped of
by someone.. don't know who or why and doesn't matter much. changes in
nautilus need to be in that list so this message does belong there as
well.

And if this pisses you off, this really valid discussion, then you
probably just need to pass it.

To all other ppl. please keep the usability list included since this
really is something they should be aware of.

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Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Olav Vitters o...@bkor.dhs.org wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:02:26PM +0100, Mark wrote:
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0
[..]
Now on topic.
Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me
if i'm wrong on any of them)

1. Somewhere in 2003 or 2004 it is decided for whatever reason to make
the spatial mode in nautilus and put it as the default mode. To my
knowledge no research is done if people even wanted that. it just got
pushed through there throat and they are expected to just take it in
not spit it out. We are now (and a lot of users back then) spitting
that decision out and clear that bad taste. Nearly all gnome based

Please keep it constructive. Above comparison is not. You will likely
get heated responses because of it (see also below).

distributions do the same and the people using those distributions
seems to be happy about the browser mode.

You provide no basis for that statement.

No basis.. do i need one? Look at Ubuntu and all other distros that
provide gnome and see how much of them use the browser or spatial
mode.

2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it:
Meritocracy with a dictator like taste.

Please don't make such loaded comparisons if you want to continue to
post to a GNOME mailing list. See http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct.
I've read most of the thread on the Fedora mailing list. I am not
interested in a repeat.

It's just an observation and seems to be true till this moment.

3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding
something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the

A few votes on a mailing list. This has been dismissed already.

4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and
that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at

That is not true.

Then give me a link where that disision is made otherwise i see it as true.

5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns
out there is one already:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628

Just general FYI: Discussion is not appreciated on (bgo) bugreports
(should be done elsewhere, e.g. in a mailing list), so please do not add
comments about things that have been said before.
The purpose of a bugreport is to discuss how the bug should be fixed
(which in above bugreport would just be a config change).

I don't agree on that. i even saw ppl on the gnome bugzilla
(developers!) telling the other users to post it to the mailing
list(s) as well to raise awareness. And i think i did that.

6. Convincing people.. yea possible but is FOUR (yes 4!) FREAKING
YEARS not proof enough that there decision was wrong. If that doesn't
convince them, again mainly or even only Alexander Larson, then they
can simply not be convinced in this subject.

Baseless statement. In your mind the decision is wrong. However, you
even haven't convinced everyone of that fact. This was already mentioned
on the Fedora mailing list.

Not only in my mind. the majority agrees with me that browser mode
should be the default.
And to give that a base. read this full list and search on google.

7. This is a conclusion again about the community. A few months ago
Max Spevack came to my school to hold a presentation about linux,

I'm not sure what this has to do with usabil...@gnome.org. Please be
concise.

That is true.

A very good example of the bad community direction is, to name someone
again, Rahul. He always points you to your mistakes (fine in a way)
but never adds (not in my experience) something constructive or
helpful always a link to a wiki of somekind.

Take that off list (at least for anything @gnome.org).

Also true but kinda hard when cross posting.

And for this entire issue where i made this thread for in the first
place. Don't expect me to be silent now. I will be vocal about this.
fedora has a freedom sign in it's logo so make that a reality!

Suggest to be constructive. Just vocal won't be appreciated.

I have been constructive.
That didn't help much so time to put it in a higher gear.

What helps: determine what usability thought was behind the spatial
mode. Then perform multiple real usability studies to show that for an
unbiased person spatial mode causes more problems than browser mode.

I think the most you could ask of me is what was done to get spatial
in it to begin with.
They didn't seem to conduct a study so i won't do that to revert there
change. Also to conduct a study takes weeks or months and by that time
this discussion is cooled down and put in the fridge. So your actually
asking me to spend months conducting a study to

Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Jeff Spaleta

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
 first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
 http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0

Mark, you need to re-think your strategy of cross-posting from an
already heated discussion into a new list. You are not necessarily
helping your cause by dragging emotionality around across lists.  If
your is goal is to be sensationalistic, you will probably succeed.  If
your goal is to encourage more people in the meritocracy to listen to
you, you are probably failing.  I think you should re-think your
approach a bit, its extremely heavy handed. All you are doing by
keeping this current thread alive is hardening opinion, not changing
minds.


-jef

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
 2008/12/20 Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com:
 I don't think rpm packages are the right way to do this.  There might be
 some interesting way to extend sabayon to be a configuration package
 tool, though.  That would be highly experimental and  is likely
 something that needs some thought and some work as a separate project
 for a while.

 Doesn't this fall under a possible spin concept?  We are talking about
 config changes.
 Mark's Ultimate Fix the Gnome Desktop Defaults Spin... A Fedora Remix.

 -jef

1. post a reply or don't post at all
2. keep those other lists included plz!

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0

Mark, you need to re-think your strategy of cross-posting from an
already heated discussion into a new list. You are not necessarily
helping your cause by dragging emotionality around across lists. If
your is goal is to be sensationalistic, you will probably succeed. If
your goal is to encourage more people in the meritocracy to listen to
you, you are probably failing. I think you should re-think your
approach a bit, its extremely heavy handed. All you are doing by
keeping this current thread alive is hardening opinion, not changing
minds.

-jef

What do you expect of me?
I started nice and what did i get in return: we don't vote here and
there is no other way to get the word out.

To remember how i started:

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey,

The question is simple:
Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Cross posted to the devel list because it's for the next fedora
version (currently in development thus the devel list)

Bug report: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477052 (wow! i
couldn't find an existing one for this! made one myself)

So, lets vote:

+1 from me

I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value).
All vote plz

Mark.

I didn't start emotional.. to be honest.. i'm not emotional at all
about this issue. just a little irritated by how easy spatial got in
and how hard it is to get out.

And i seem to be on the moderation list now from gnome's usability..
that's what happens when you try to improve something with the best
intentions.

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Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Olav Vitters

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 08:14:18PM +0100, Mark wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Olav Vitters o...@bkor.dhs.org wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:02:26PM +0100, Mark wrote:
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669viewmode=flatorder=ASCstart=0
[..]
Now on topic.
Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me
if i'm wrong on any of them)

Please keep it constructive. Above comparison is not. You will likely
get heated responses because of it (see also below).

distributions do the same and the people using those distributions
seems to be happy about the browser mode.

You provide no basis for that statement.

No basis.. do i need one? Look at Ubuntu and all other distros that
provide gnome and see how much of them use the browser or spatial
mode.

people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode

is your interpretation. Just because people use browser mode doesn't
make it better than spatial mode. Nor a distro default means that
everyone agrees.

2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it:
Meritocracy with a dictator like taste.

It's just an observation and seems to be true till this moment.

Whatever you call it, it is not appreciated.

3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding
something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the

A few votes on a mailing list. This has been dismissed already.

4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and
that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at

That is not true.

Then give me a link where that disision is made otherwise i see it as true.

That is the other way around. You want a change, you do the work.

5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns
out there is one already:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628

I don't agree on that. i even saw ppl on the gnome bugzilla
(developers!) telling the other users to post it to the mailing
list(s) as well to raise awareness. And i think i did that.

It does not matter if you agree. I'm advising how to behave on GNOME
Bugzilla as bugmaster of GNOME bugzilla.

You can raise awareness, yes. And finally that can be pointed out on the
bugreport. What I meant is having everyone add loads of 'me too'
comments. It makes the bugreport difficult to read.

Baseless statement. In your mind the decision is wrong. However, you
even haven't convinced everyone of that fact. This was already mentioned
on the Fedora mailing list.

Not only in my mind. the majority agrees with me that browser mode
should be the default.
And to give that a base. read this full list and search on google.

Only a few people responded to that. On Google, I see enough people how
love spatial mode.

In my

Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Jeff Spaleta

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 What do you expect of me?
 I started nice and what did i get in return: we don't vote here and
 there is no other way to get the word out.

No mark you didn't start nice.  You started out demanding a vote in
order to coerce a change. Demanding a vote is not a nice way to hold a
discussion. Votes in the real world of democratic town meetings and
representative state legislatures, are what happens at the end of
discussions.  Votes stop discussion in the real world.  By starting
this thread with a vote, you implied that discussion was in fact not
what you wanted.

-jef

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Les Mikesell


Mark wrote:



To all other ppl. please keep the usability list included since this
really is something they should be aware of.



Keep in mind that cross-posting to multiple lists sucks for everyone who 
is not a member of all of them because they'll get bounces pointing that 
out, and there's a fair chance that they won't get moderator approval 
and ever appear.


--
  Les Mikesell
   lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 What do you expect of me?
 I started nice and what did i get in return: we don't vote here and
 there is no other way to get the word out.

 No mark you didn't start nice.  You started out demanding a vote in
 order to coerce a change. Demanding a vote is not a nice way to hold a
 discussion. Votes in the real world of democratic town meetings and
 representative state legislatures, are what happens at the end of
 discussions.  Votes stop discussion in the real world.  By starting
 this thread with a vote, you implied that discussion was in fact not
 what you wanted.

 -jef

Now that you say it like that you might be right.
However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just
to.. vote how you liked it.

Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mark wrote:

 To all other ppl. please keep the usability list included since this
 really is something they should be aware of.


 Keep in mind that cross-posting to multiple lists sucks for everyone who is
 not a member of all of them because they'll get bounces pointing that out,
 and there's a fair chance that they won't get moderator approval and ever
 appear.

True. and they are apparently afraid that my idea gets through because
i have been put on moderation.
feel free to do whatever you think is right. at this moment i'm sick of gnome.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 20:53 +0100, Mark wrote:

 Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
 that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.


 Creating a sabayon profile with your favourite changes and storing it
 away in some safe place would take ~10 minutes (including the time to
 install sabayon). The time and energy you have invested in this thread
 by now probably measures in days...

not really.
It requires me to: download sabyon, install it, figure out in detail
how the profile stuff works and if that fits my needs and it's not
using the RPM package system. I might not agree with all of fedora and
might find ubuntu better then fedora but i find RPM so much easyer
then debs if you make want to edit existing rpm's and that's why i
keep coming back to fedora.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak


2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it:
Meritocracy with a dictator like taste.


No, gnome is not a democracy at all, and does not claim to be. The 
individual module maintainers basically have total control over their 
modules. They can accept or reject patches and ideas. You can call that 
benevolent dictatorship if you like.


Maintainers become maintainers by doing the bulk of the hard coding work.

The Gnome Foundation board is elected, but the foundation does not aim 
to tell what the developers to do. It provides logistics, support, and 
advocacy.


Just dispelling some notions...

Personally, I don't like the spatial view either... or the fact that I 
can't rename a file from within the filechooser...


Some of my patches are accepted. Some are rejected. C'est la vie.

- Mike

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Jeff Spaleta

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 Now that you say it like that you might be right.

I'm always right.  That has never been the problem for me. Its just
one of those inherent truths of the universe.
But you know what, its not enough for me to be right all the time.
The skill I've had to learn over time is how to persuade other people,
I'm still learning.  It's a trick you should probably invest some time
thinking about developing.

 However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just
 to.. vote how you liked it.

Yes, your actual intention was probably not the intention people read
into your actions.  The same could be said for people on the other
side.  Noone has figured out how to write a markup language for human
intention...and as a result any passionate discussion degrades
severely as we are wired to read intention but without body language
and vocal ques...we absolutely do it wrong when relying solely on
written language. Even more so with English! If we mandated everyone
encode thought into Lisp we'd be having more constructive discussions
(and less of them). The productivity of the list would be through the
roof.

 Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
 that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.

That's a copout excuse.  You are spending a lot of time right now
beating your head on the brick wall on this issue.  Figuring out a
technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the
GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are
doing now.


-jef

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 Now that you say it like that you might be right.

 I'm always right.  That has never been the problem for me. Its just
 one of those inherent truths of the universe.

don't get over confidence now

 But you know what, its not enough for me to be right all the time.
 The skill I've had to learn over time is how to persuade other people,
 I'm still learning.  It's a trick you should probably invest some time
 thinking about developing.

... if i sometime want that i will contact you oke?

 However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just
 to.. vote how you liked it.

 Yes, your actual intention was probably not the intention people read
 into your actions.  The same could be said for people on the other
 side.  Noone has figured out how to write a markup language for human
 intention...and as a result any passionate discussion degrades
 severely as we are wired to read intention but without body language
 and vocal ques...we absolutely do it wrong when relying solely on
 written language. Even more so with English! If we mandated everyone
 encode thought into Lisp we'd be having more constructive discussions
 (and less of them). The productivity of the list would be through the
 roof.

... i think i agree ...

 Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
 that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.

 That's a copout excuse.  You are spending a lot of time right now
 beating your head on the brick wall on this issue.  Figuring out a
 technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the
 GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are
 doing now.

not an excuse just a fact. besides that fact i just need to use fedora
with a project of mine.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Les Mikesell


Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 20:53 +0100, Mark wrote:


Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.



Creating a sabayon profile with your favourite changes and storing it
away in some safe place would take ~10 minutes (including the time to
install sabayon). The time and energy you have invested in this thread
by now probably measures in days...


Does sabayon allow publishing a profile so people could share their choices?

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Les Mikesell


Jeff Spaleta wrote:


That's a copout excuse.  You are spending a lot of time right now
beating your head on the brick wall on this issue.  Figuring out a
technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the
GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are
doing now.


Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages? 
 That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the 
upstream has (themes, etc.)?  Or can any packager make any whimsical 
change he wants at any time?  Or something in between?


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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mark wrote:

 2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
 democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it:
 Meritocracy with a dictator like taste.


 I have yet to see any Free and open source project work like a democracy.
 There might be some democratic aspects to portions of the projects but
 generally, who does the work gets to decide how things are done.  If Linus,
 says no, it doesn't get into the Linux kernel. Period.  No voting either.
 You have the full freedom to fork and convince others to adopt it but then
 again, that would require actual work to be done.

 3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding
 something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the
 actual fedora community, the ones that are helping to make fedora
 better, are just a hand full of people.

 A entire distribution full of free and open source software is given to you
 at no cost with the all the freedom to modify and redistribute the result.
 I think it is more appropriate , to do less of demanding and more of
 engaging in a discussion. People don't like being forced but they generally
 prefer more participation.

 What i or any other community member says is simply being ignored. WE,
 the community want this feature to change and i'm not going to be
 silent about it!

 A community is inclusive of all its participants, developers and users
 included.  Finding consensus in a diverse community is a hard thing.  As
 seen in this thread, there is no one opinion that is representative of a
 community.  In Fedora, developers engage in a discussion or a debate,
  sometimes a heated one but voting isn't a real discussion. It doesn't show
 WHY people are for or against something which makes it much more harder to
 make a decision either way.  The why is important, perhaps more important
 than gross number count. If you don't agree to me, you don't listen to the
 community is a often repeated thing but isn't a valid statement.

 A very good example of the bad community direction is, to name someone
 again, Rahul. He always points you to your mistakes (fine in a way)
 but never adds (not in my experience) something constructive or
 helpful always a link to a wiki of somekind.


 Even in my first mail I did point out other things you could have done to be
 more effective. I try to be helpful and give you more references instead of
 repeating the same things over and over again. That is one of the reasons, I
 prefer to document things when questions come up frequently on something or
 the other.  I am pretty sure, that is more helpful than your approach but
 you seem to have penchant to convert this into a emotional personal fight
 instead of just a technical debate.

 And for this entire issue where i made this thread for in the firste
 place. Don't expect me to be silent now. I will be vocal about this.
 fedora has a freedom sign

 Being vocal  (and cross posting to increasing more mailing lists) doesn't
 really change anything. Freedom is not anarchy. There are always rules about
 how things are done within any community.
 You do have the full freedom given by the project to do your own thing. I
 even encourage you to do it. If you are really successful, that would be a
 valid statement of your own viewpoints and will help others reconsider their
 current opinions as well.  The current strategy doesn't seem to work very
 well.

 Rahul

For the first time ever i fully agree on what you said and didn't find
your post annoying to read.
Just one thing about my tactic.. i have none.. i have no preset plan
of how i'm going to do this. i just do it when i'm writing my next
response and till now that got me far (not talking about mailing lists
now but life in general). I tend to do the right thing when i just do
it without planning anything or considering every possible outcome. I
think i am indeed getting done a part of what i hoped and that's
raising awareness that this option in nautilus should be changed and
that the majority of any linux related community is in favor of it. I
don't have hard numbers to back that up but there are no hard numbers
on community users so don't ask the impossible of me.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:
 Jeff Spaleta wrote:

 That's a copout excuse.  You are spending a lot of time right now
 beating your head on the brick wall on this issue.  Figuring out a
 technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the
 GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are
 doing now.

 Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages?
  That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the upstream
 has (themes, etc.)?  Or can any packager make any whimsical change he wants
 at any time?  Or something in between?

 --
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   lesmikes...@gmail.com

What they all said so far is that it either has to be done upstream or
the package maintainer has to do it by making a patch. In this
nautilus case that's the same person. (i won't name him this time
because they also say that won't help the discussion ^_^)

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mark wrote:

  I
 think i am indeed getting done a part of what i hoped and that's
 raising awareness that this option in nautilus should be changed and
 that the majority of any linux related community is in favor of it. I
 don't have hard numbers to back that up but there are no hard numbers
 on community users so don't ask the impossible of me


 You are being self contradictory. If you don't have any hard numbers, you
 cannot actually claim a majority at all and yes, finding hard numbers is
 difficult if not impossible and doesn't really translate into usability
 anyway. I wouldn't blame you for this.  The real problem is that we haven't
 yet figured out a good community centric approach to usability though many
 different people are trying. Even in cases, where there some acclaimed
 usability tests behind a particular change, many Linux users still felt the
 changes were all wrong. One example is the Slab menu or the new KDE 4
 default menu. In the end, all that you have accomplished is to note again,
 that the Linux community has strong and sometimes deeply conflicting view
 points and aren't afraid to express them but I think,  most of us are
 already aware of that.

 Rahul

To be completely off topic -- the discussion about browser mode seems
over anyway -- the kde 4 menu does suck. besides that it's buggy it's
not intuitive although it might be better if the existing bugs are
fixed. The only thing it is is looking better then what was the
classic menu.

I will see if the bug (talking about the spatial vs browser mode now)
that is targeted for gnome 2.24 is really gonna get in thus meaning
that browser mode is enabled by default again. The link is in one of
my previous posts.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Mark markg85 at gmail.com writes:

 
 Hey,
 
 The question is simple:
 Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Hi all,

I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum -
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

Regards,
Noel.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Noel Zeng inkybut...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mark markg85 at gmail.com writes:


 Hey,

 The question is simple:
 Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

 Hi all,

 I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum -
 http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

 Regards,
 Noel.

Nice!
At this moment there are 10 votes already. all in favor of the browser mode.
I, of cause, voted as well ^_^

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Mark wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Noel Zeng inkybut...@gmail.com wrote:
   
 Mark markg85 at gmail.com writes:

 
 Hey,

 The question is simple:
 Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.
   
 Hi all,

 I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum -
 http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

 Regards,
 Noel.
 

 Nice!
 At this moment there are 10 votes already. all in favor of the browser mode.
 I, of cause, voted as well ^_^

   
Woopie

I hope you realized this type of poll is totally unscientific and
meaningless.


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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Temlakos


Ed Greshko wrote:

Mark wrote:
  

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Noel Zeng inkybut...@gmail.com wrote:
  


Mark markg85 at gmail.com writes:


  

Hey,

The question is simple:
Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.
  


Hi all,

I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum -
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

Regards,
Noel.

  

Nice!
At this moment there are 10 votes already. all in favor of the browser mode.
I, of cause, voted as well ^_^

  


Woopie

I hope you realized this type of poll is totally unscientific and
meaningless.


  


Well, scientific or not, I never use Nautilus in any mode other than 
browser mode. I do this by checking the check-off box in the Behavior 
options that says Always use browser mode.


For the life of me, I cannot understand the thinking of the inventors, 
or the adherents, of the so-called spatial  mode. Why force a user to 
open a window for every single folder as one opens one subfolder after 
another? Now I can understand, up to a point, wanting this as an 
option--say, to be able to move a file from one folder to another. 
(Although I hope everyone realizes that trying to use Nautilus after 
executing the command known as su gives a hiccup, and if logging-in a 
root is no longer to be allowed, that could get to be a serious 
problem.) But if all one wants to do is open a file-management window 
and then open a file with an associated application, one might have to 
close ten windows in the desktop if spatial mode has been in operation.


For that reason I never use spatial mode. If I want to open two file 
browser windows, then that's exactly what I do.


It occurs to me that the development and user communities cannot seem to 
make up their collective minds whether they want to encourage their 
users to use xterm (or even log in on Runlevel 3) exclusively for all 
file-management tasks, or to use a graphic desktop. And if you're going 
to encourage the latter, then it hardly serves the purpose to make a key 
graphical applet, namely your file manager, difficult or even annoying 
to use.


Temlakos

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Les Mikesell wrote:
 Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages?
   That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the
 upstream has (themes, etc.)?  Or can any packager make any whimsical
 change he wants at any time?  Or something in between?

The packager can make changes.

But in the case of the Fedora GNOME packages, upstream and packagers are
mostly the same people.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Mark wrote:
 To be completely off topic -- the discussion about browser mode seems
 over anyway -- the kde 4 menu does suck. besides that it's buggy it's
 not intuitive although it might be better if the existing bugs are
 fixed. The only thing it is is looking better then what was the
 classic menu.

Well, I can only suggest that you talk to us on #fedora-kde and try to
gather feedback in some sensible way (but a ML vote is not a good way to do
so, as you have seen - we really don't need another flamewar like this
one!). That's assuming KDE 4's classic menu implementation is good enough
for you: if it also fails to meet your expectations, then actual coding
work is needed! We can't just use the original Kicker menu, it doesn't work
in KDE 4.

Please keep in mind that many people do like the new Kickoff menu, and that
we did hold a kind of vote among KDE maintainers and the result was 3-2 for
Kickoff (and for the record, I voted for the classic menu, I hate Kickoff).
We also tried to gather user feedback but didn't get all that much of it,
maybe because it was too early and KDE 4 wasn't widely used yet (it was
before the Fedora 9 release, so it was only in Rawhide).

Also keep in mind that changing the menu style is just 2 clicks
(right-click, Switch to Classic menu style), KDE upstream made it easily
accessible because they know there are differing strong preferences. (If
the default is switched to Classic, the people who want Kickoff will
complain, we can't make everyone happy.)

Oh, and if you want to participate in our decision making, the best way is
to join the KDE SIG and help with KDE packaging. :-)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:21 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 Mark wrote:
 To be completely off topic -- the discussion about browser mode seems
 over anyway -- the kde 4 menu does suck. besides that it's buggy it's
 not intuitive although it might be better if the existing bugs are
 fixed. The only thing it is is looking better then what was the
 classic menu.

 Well, I can only suggest that you talk to us on #fedora-kde and try to
 gather feedback in some sensible way (but a ML vote is not a good way to do
 so, as you have seen - we really don't need another flamewar like this
 one!). That's assuming KDE 4's classic menu implementation is good enough
 for you: if it also fails to meet your expectations, then actual coding
 work is needed! We can't just use the original Kicker menu, it doesn't work
 in KDE 4.

 Please keep in mind that many people do like the new Kickoff menu, and that
 we did hold a kind of vote among KDE maintainers and the result was 3-2 for
 Kickoff (and for the record, I voted for the classic menu, I hate Kickoff).
 We also tried to gather user feedback but didn't get all that much of it,
 maybe because it was too early and KDE 4 wasn't widely used yet (it was
 before the Fedora 9 release, so it was only in Rawhide).

 Also keep in mind that changing the menu style is just 2 clicks
 (right-click, Switch to Classic menu style), KDE upstream made it easily
 accessible because they know there are differing strong preferences. (If
 the default is switched to Classic, the people who want Kickoff will
 complain, we can't make everyone happy.)

 Oh, and if you want to participate in our decision making, the best way is
 to join the KDE SIG and help with KDE packaging. :-)

Kevin Kofler

Lol calm down on getting yourself safe lol.

I have just tried KDE 4 for a few hours and it's still not stable
enough for me to use.
so don't worry that i'm gonna make a new vote on this ML to get the
original menu back because i won't do that when i'm not using it. Ask
me again when KDE 4 is stable enough to use and doesn't crash when you
set you desktop to folder mode and does indeed remember the setting
and... and... and... there is so much that feels unstable but it's
really looking wonderful already.

And f.y.i. there is no menu in existence that i like ^_^ i did saw a
few mockups but nothing resembles what i would like to see. Not even
vista's! the one in windows 7 is getting closer though but that's only
because the theme there fully fits the panel.

So this is a flame war?... then i don't understand why. it's just
expressing facts and opinion to a few that don't want to listen
anyway.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Horst H. von Brand
vonbr...@inf.utfsm.cl wrote:
 Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]

  Btw your idea of my spin idea might very well be true ^_^ it's just
  that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.

  That's a copout excuse.  You are spending a lot of time right now
  beating your head on the brick wall on this issue.  Figuring out a
  technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the
  GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are
  doing now.

 not an excuse just a fact. besides that fact i just need to use fedora
 with a project of mine.

 Yes, it is an excuse. If you want something done, do it yourself.

Just when i'm calm down again you come here and post that line.
i absolutely HATE those lines the most in the entire open source world!
i've seen that so many times.. if you don't like it, make it
yourself! it's open so your free to do so it's such a lame excuse of
YOU to get rid of me the fast way. Most people are not even capable of
making it! i am not but am going in that direction to make it. (for
the wise guys: i don't mean remaking gnome but learning c++ and
actually now struggling with QT).

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Tim wrote:
 KDE's even worse - whacking great big menu, needs a search function to
 find things because it's two awkward to use as a menu.  A gazillion and
 one configuration options that you fiddle with rather than actually use
 the computer.

Right-click, switch to Classic style menu. 2 clicks.

And please read:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-December/msg02440.html
We're not completely closed to changes in default settings.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

 Woopie
 
 I hope you realized this type of poll is totally unscientific and
 meaningless.
 

Unscientific and meaningless? How so? I bet you didn't even read the poll.

I kept my personal opinion out of my poll question and my post. Neutral and fair
descriptions are given to each of the modes. The illustrative screenshots are
not biased: in fact, I deliberately didn't use a deeply nested directory to show
that Spatial mode makes a mess with millions of windows! 

Although not all Fedora users are affiliated with Fedora Forum, a wide range, if
not all of Fedora users are represented in FF. This is evident from the range of
questions asked in the forum: ranging from Linux newb *Fedora 10 install
problem* to problems with chkrootkit. I believe that Fedora Forum is the place
to ask the question, and the answer will be representative of the wider Fedora
community. (which favours change, 20 for and 1 against at the moment)

And BTW, why hasn't any opponent to change addressed these good points?
*That most new Fedora users migrated from Windows, which shows folders like a
browser. To help them adjust, avoid confusion and therefore increasing the
chance of them stay using Fedora, isn't it better to give them by default
familiar interface and ways of doing things?
*That spatial mode leaves behind tons of windows, inconvenient for users. And I
know you can use Shift-Doubleclick or simply change it browser mode, but why on
earth would most of Fedora users have to suffer this inconvenience simply
because the powers that be happened to like it?
*That the only supposed advantage is that it mimics real life, therefore more
intuitive. Hell, it's annoying to open a packet within a packet within a packet
on a real life desktop, where a pile of rubbish is left on it,so why repeat that
in the virtual world? Here's a video that illustrates my point - I'm using it
out of context, but
nevertheless:http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1064947/rocketboom_earth_day_2007/.

Regards,
Noel.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Noel Zeng wrote:
 Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

   
 Woopie

 I hope you realized this type of poll is totally unscientific and
 meaningless.

 

 Unscientific and meaningless? How so? I bet you didn't even read the poll.
   
Doesn't matter

It is only a poll of those people who have decided to respond.No
better than the various CNN online polls an those types.




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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

 Doesn't matter
 
 It is only a poll of those people who have decided to respond.No
 better than the various CNN online polls an those types.

So according to you, there won't be a way of determining whether people like
something or not? Because, if one comes up with poll results that are contrary
to your preferences, you can just dismiss it with a oh some people didn't
respond. I believe that those who responded are representative of the Fedora
community, per reason in previous post. Your comments don't seem to be
constructive here, considering the above, and also the fact that you didn't even
bother to look at the poll that you're dismissing.

Regards,
Noel.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Noel Zeng wrote:
 Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

   
 Doesn't matter

 It is only a poll of those people who have decided to respond.No
 better than the various CNN online polls an those types.
 

 So according to you, there won't be a way of determining whether people like
 something or not? Because, if one comes up with poll results that are contrary
 to your preferences, you can just dismiss it with a oh some people didn't
 respond. I believe that those who responded are representative of the Fedora
 community, per reason in previous post. Your comments don't seem to be
 constructive here, considering the above, and also the fact that you didn't 
 even
 bother to look at the poll that you're dismissing.


   
It isn't the content of the pollit is the polling methodology.  

But, never mind.   I'm glad important things are decided by these polls.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Antonio Olivares

--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Noel Zeng inkybut...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Noel Zeng inkybut...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11
 To: fedora-list@redhat.com
 Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 9:04 PM
 Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

  Doesn't matter

  It is only a poll of those people who have decided to
 respond.No
  better than the various CNN online polls an those
 types.

 So according to you, there won't be a way of
 determining whether people like
 something or not? Because, if one comes up with poll
 results that are contrary
 to your preferences, you can just dismiss it with a
 oh some people didn't
 respond. I believe that those who responded are
 representative of the Fedora
 community, per reason in previous post. Your comments
 don't seem to be
 constructive here, considering the above, and also the fact
 that you didn't even
 bother to look at the poll that you're dismissing.

 Regards,
 Noel.

 -- 

I like the browser view +1, but regarding the poll.  What I believe Ed refers 
to is the fact that the poll will not make the developers change their minds, 
although many people would hope that it does, I like browser mode myself and I 
always change it.  But who knows with these things.

It reminds me of testing.  There is too much testing going on in schools.  
School districts benchmarking the kids too much.  In my opinion, the numbers 
might not mean much, they are just benchmarks.  They just have to pass a 
Statewide exam and in the end the other numbers were meaningless.  That in 
testing, here with respect to the stats collected, some people might just 
believe why would developers care about what the end users want?, Just like a 
restaurant where it said:

This is not Burger King!  You get it my way or you don't get the dammn thing! 

While it is good in some ways to have these polls, in the end the decision is 
still left to the developers.  Will they cave in to what the users want?  
This is the big question here.

My $0.02 

Regards,

Antonio 

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

 It isn't the content of the pollit is the polling methodology.  
 
 But, never mind.   I'm glad important things are decided by these polls.

I stand by my poll. You haven't addressed my points about the methodology, as
stated in my first post.

I have never said that polls should be the way of deciding things. I'm saying
that the wider Fedora community's input is important, and the developers should
take the input into account. I thought this poll would clarify where the wider
community stands on the issue.

I hope that developers won't play the I'm-the-boss card in the end and say
that, well, too bad, this is a meritocracy. It may be so, but how the community
wants things is important as well.

Regards,
Noel.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Noel Zeng wrote:
 Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:

   
 It isn't the content of the pollit is the polling methodology.  

 But, never mind.   I'm glad important things are decided by these polls.
 

 I stand by my poll. You haven't addressed my points about the methodology, as
 stated in my first post.
   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_poll

And other more reliable sources
 I have never said that polls should be the way of deciding things. I'm saying
 that the wider Fedora community's input is important, and the developers 
 should
 take the input into account. I thought this poll would clarify where the wider
 community stands on the issue.

 I hope that developers won't play the I'm-the-boss card in the end and say
 that, well, too bad, this is a meritocracy. It may be so, but how the 
 community
 wants things is important as well.

 Regards,
 Noel.

   


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The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own
hand. -- Fred Allen mei-mei.gres...@greshko.com


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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko at greshko.com writes:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_poll

OK, you may argue that there is not enough proof to show that the poll is
reflective of normal users, but the other reasons for change are compelling
enough, methinks.

It is also a difficult ask for a scientific survey, since it costs a lot of $$,
and is near impossible. How would you go about having a random selection of
GNOME users when we don't have a list of people who use GNOME and their contact
detail?

Regards,
Noel.



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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

2008-12-20 Thread Tim

On Sun, 2008-12-21 at 04:46 +, Noel Zeng wrote:
 That spatial mode leaves behind tons of windows, inconvenient for
 users. And I know you can use Shift-Doubleclick or simply change it
 browser mode, but why on earth would most of Fedora users have to
 suffer this inconvenience simply because the powers that be happened
 to like it?

In general, when one clicks into a directory, they want to see something
inside it (i.e. they're looking for *a* *file*).  There's no additional
inference that says they need the prior directory/directories to remain
open at the same time.  I'd say it's far more likely that they don't,
particularly if they're drilling down through several directories.  It's
more practical to use a hotkey to make your new directory open in a new
window, on demand, rather than by default.

You wonder if people making these decisions actually make any
observations about how others use computers.

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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11