Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 16:03:40 -0400, William Case [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that the bragging is over: I would really like to find a logical way to climb into the functioning of the basic kernel while keeping blind allies and logic traps to a minimum. I would use all suggestions and assistance that comes my way in order to get started properly . A long time ago when I wanted to learn more about vms at a low level I added some syscalls to the OS. They were simple functions, but things we had use for. We had source on microfiche along with the generated binary code, so that we could do binary patches to the OS even though we couldn't rebuild from source. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
Hi; Just checking that I am doing this correctly. I want to start exploring the Linux kernel. (I realize when the time comes I should ask any in depth questions elsewhere -- but for now I am just looking for start help.) I have 'git' installed. I am ready to download the Fedora 9 source. Members of my local LUG have advised me that I should be sure to download the 'git' kernel. They mostly use Debian. I don't see anything in the source repo that might equal a 'git' Kernel -- just the regular ordinary source rpm; kernel-2.6.25-14.fc9.src.rpm Should I download that or is there somewhere else an animal called or set up as a 'git' kernel?? -- Regards Bill; Fedora 9, Gnome 2.22.3 Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 12:09 -0400, William Case wrote: Hi; Just checking that I am doing this correctly. I want to start exploring the Linux kernel. (I realize when the time comes I should ask any in depth questions elsewhere -- but for now I am just looking for start help.) I have 'git' installed. I am ready to download the Fedora 9 source. Members of my local LUG have advised me that I should be sure to download the 'git' kernel. They mostly use Debian. I don't see anything in the source repo that might equal a 'git' Kernel -- just the regular ordinary source rpm; kernel-2.6.25-14.fc9.src.rpm Should I download that or is there somewhere else an animal called or set up as a 'git' kernel?? Bill, 'git' is a version-control system used in the kernel development process (and other places), so the git kernel means some version of the kernel source as released by kernel.org, i.e. Linus and friends. OTOH the Fedora kernel is a git kernel (usually a minor version or two behind) plus Fedora patches. You can use yum to install it for your reading pleasure without having to understand anything about git. Cheers poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
William Case wrote: Just checking that I am doing this correctly. I want to start exploring the Linux kernel. (I realize when the time comes I should ask any in depth questions elsewhere -- but for now I am just looking for start help.) I have 'git' installed. I am ready to download the Fedora 9 source. Members of my local LUG have advised me that I should be sure to download the 'git' kernel. They mostly use Debian. I don't see anything in the source repo that might equal a 'git' Kernel -- just the regular ordinary source rpm; kernel-2.6.25-14.fc9.src.rpm Should I download that or is there somewhere else an animal called or set up as a 'git' kernel?? If you want to explore the kernel tree that makes up the kernel you are running in Fedora, you probably want to follow the steps at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/CustomKernel On the other hand, if you want to study the vanilla kernel sources and be able to read the logs of changes made, then cloning the kernel's git repository would be better. You can clone Linus' tree via: git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git (Either of these methods take up several hundred megabytes.) -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp ~~ Don't look for me in daylight where robots all assemble. You'll find me in my dark world, in my smoke-filled temple. pgpb5nHopLMpQ.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
William Case wrote: Hi; Just checking that I am doing this correctly. I want to start exploring the Linux kernel. (I realize when the time comes I should ask any in depth questions elsewhere -- but for now I am just looking for start help.) I have 'git' installed. I am ready to download the Fedora 9 source. Members of my local LUG have advised me that I should be sure to download the 'git' kernel. They mostly use Debian. I don't see anything in the source repo that might equal a 'git' Kernel -- just the regular ordinary source rpm; kernel-2.6.25-14.fc9.src.rpm Should I download that or is there somewhere else an animal called or set up as a 'git' kernel?? Here is a howto for compiling the Fedora kernel and the kernel.org kernel. http://www.howtoforge.com/kernel_compilation_fedora Not exactly what you want, but will get you started. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
William Case wrote: I am in the process of trying to make up my mind which would be most useful to me. Exploring the vanilla kernel, or the source for what I have on my machine. At this point I only want to look-and-see, not build. Building will come later for me, I am sure. If you don't mind learning a bit about git (and it seems you have friends in your LUG that can help there), it may prove helpful in poking through the source code. Things like git blame can tell you who madified each line in a file and in what revision. That can be handy when trying to follow the history and evolution of a file. git grep is also handy and seems to be faster than grep -r to search a large source tree (though I haven't tested that methodically). When it comes time to building your own kernel, then you can easily follow the steps on the Fedora wiki to create a kernel that will work nicely with your Fedora system. The Fedora kernel aims to be as close to the vanilla kernel as can be, but there are always at least a few patches -- often from upstream kernel developers. -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp ~~ The most overlooked advantage to owning a computer is that if they foul up, there's no law against whacking them around a little. -- Eric Porterfield pgpf8kTNSr6mt.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 13:59 -0400, William Case wrote: Hi Patrick On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 12:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 12:09 -0400, William Case wrote: Hi; Just checking that I am doing this correctly. I want to start exploring the Linux kernel. (I realize when the time comes I should ask any in depth questions elsewhere -- but for now I am just looking for start help.) I have 'git' installed. I am ready to download the Fedora 9 source. Members of my local LUG have advised me that I should be sure to download the 'git' kernel. They mostly use Debian. I understand git is a version control system for linux. Many members of my local LUG are Linux programmers who use git. I am trying to catchup without being too competitive. I was also going to install scope -- in the hope that would let me bop around without too much difficulty. Major questions I will reserve for the kernelnewbies list. I don't see anything in the source repo that might equal a 'git' Kernel -- just the regular ordinary source rpm; kernel-2.6.25-14.fc9.src.rpm Should I download that or is there somewhere else an animal called or set up as a 'git' kernel?? Bill, 'git' is a version-control system used in the kernel development process (and other places), so the git kernel means some version of the kernel source as released by kernel.org, i.e. Linus and friends. I was hoping to substitute a fedora kernel. That is, Kill two birds with one stone. Learn some basics about my way around the kernel and git; and, be able to relate it to what is running on my machine. A time will come when I will want to use it in a virtual machine (borrowed lingo -- I don't really know what I am talking about yet re: virtual machines). OTOH the Fedora kernel is a git kernel (usually a minor version or two behind) plus Fedora patches. You can use yum to install it for your reading pleasure without having to understand anything about git. I have used SVN a little bit, so I am not completely new to version control systems. One of the LUG members looked up the Fedora kernel and as you say, said it was near enough to the latest version to make no never mind. Let me put it this way. Starting something new is when the major screw ups take place. You can introduce yourself to endless grief because of starting stupidly. My experience with computers and programs so far has been that I can handle the details; its starting and stopping that is the hard part -- kind of like learning to drive a car. If you have a better suggestion on how I should get started, I am all ears -- sincerely. My goal is to examine and get a feel for the C code for some of the basic services provided by the kernel -- I don't anticipate learning all 12 million lines of kernel code. I thought I would look at the major 'struct's and follow the pointers and constants definitions in the various struct fields from there. Bill, I'm not too sure of your technical background so it's hard to make recommendations. I used to teach operating systems many years ago, and there were some things that always caused difficulty for students, because they don't arise in normal programming: 1) I/O, especially interrupts. This implies at least a basic understanding of machine architecture. 2) Virtual memory systems and how they relate to real memory. 3) How multiprogrammed systems manage lots of concurrent processes with seamless switching between them. The real nitty-gritty of how this is done is what separates the sheep from the goats. I regard it as the pons asinorum of OS theory. None of this needs to be tied to the exact details of Linux itself, and in fact you can learn a lot from starting with a simpler system. In that sense, John Lyons' classic commentary on the Unix 6th Edition source code is one the best books ever written on this topic. [Fellow oldies will recall Ken Thompson's famous comment at the start of the process dispatcher function (Line 2238 in Lyons' book): You are not expected to understand this. :-] poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:03 -0400, William Case wrote: Hi Patrick; Thank you for asking. On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 14:20 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Bill, I'm not too sure of your technical background so it's hard to make recommendations. I used to teach operating systems many years ago, and there were some things that always caused difficulty for students, because they don't arise in normal programming: WARNING: What follows is some unembarrassed hubris! It wouldn't be hubris if it were embarrassed. I have no technical background as you would call it. But that has never hindered me before. My Degree is in Arts: History, English and Philosophy. Even that doesn't mean much -- I went to University in the '60s -- didn't study much. That's not your background, that's your education :-) [...] Bibliogarphy (Skipped the course on spelling did we :-) That's your background. [...] The book that gave me the most assistance was Computer Organization Design The Hardware / Software Interface, Of course. Another classic. IIRC the Bach covers more ground than Lyons, but Lyons is literally a blow-by-blow account of how the thing works line by line. Tanenbaum is always a good read, but his approach is micro-kernel based and not that useful for looking at Linux (despite Linux 0.1 being based on Minix). This is also true of a lot of academic textbooks, because they want you to understand the stuff from first principles and some at least push a microkernel agenda (no religious wars about this please). [...] My current interest in the kernel is because: a) the kernel is naturally the next thing to dig into, and, b) reading and questioning can only take you so far; a time comes when one has to start exploring and using the real thing. I have tentatively used 'LXR Linux' and 'google code search' for some very basic questions and searches. Now that the bragging is over: I would really like to find a logical way to climb into the functioning of the basic kernel while keeping blind allies and logic traps to a minimum. I would use all suggestions and assistance that comes my way in order to get started properly . Understanding a kernel is a holistic endeavour, i.e. you can't really start at the beginning, go on until you come to the end, and then stop as the King of Hearts told Alice, so to grok any part requires you to grok all the other parts first (not *completely* true, but it sounds nice :-) That said, tldp.org has some stuff, e.g. http://tldp.org/LDP/lki/index.html (Linux 2.4 Internals, a bit old but still useful). You might find http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ interesting as well. I've no doubt lurkers will appear to recommend other sources. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:03 -0400, William Case wrote: Hi Patrick; Thank you for asking. On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 14:20 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Bill, I'm not too sure of your technical background so it's hard to make recommendations. I used to teach operating systems many years ago, and there were some things that always caused difficulty for students, because they don't arise in normal programming: WARNING: What follows is some unembarrassed hubris! It wouldn't be hubris if it were embarrassed. Logically true, but a repetition of ideas shifts the emphasis I have no technical background as you would call it. But that has never hindered me before. My Degree is in Arts: History, English and Philosophy. Even that doesn't mean much -- I went to University in the '60s -- didn't study much. That's not your background, that's your education :-) Only the first paragraph. The second paragraph got snipped. [...] Bibliography Spelling never was a strong suit. Thank God for spell checkers -- but missed that one. (Skipped the course on spelling did we :-) That's your background. [...] The book that gave me the most assistance was Computer Organization Design The Hardware / Software Interface, Of course. Another classic. IIRC the Bach covers more ground than Lyons, but Lyons is literally a blow-by-blow account of how the thing works line by line. Tanenbaum is always a good read, but his approach is micro-kernel based and not that useful for looking at Linux (despite Linux 0.1 being based on Minix). This is also true of a lot of academic textbooks, because they want you to understand the stuff from first principles and some at least push a microkernel agenda (no religious wars about this please). [...] Probably all true. Your critiques are a strong argument for exploring the kernel myself. My current interest in the kernel is because: a) the kernel is naturally the next thing to dig into, and, b) reading and questioning can only take you so far; a time comes when one has to start exploring and using the real thing. I have tentatively used 'LXR Linux' and 'google code search' for some very basic questions and searches. Now that the bragging is over: I would really like to find a logical way to climb into the functioning of the basic kernel while keeping blind allies and logic traps to a minimum. I would use all suggestions and assistance that comes my way in order to get started properly . Understanding a kernel is a holistic endeavour, i.e. you can't really start at the beginning, go on until you come to the end, and then stop as the King of Hearts told Alice, so to grok any part requires you to grok all the other parts first (not *completely* true, but it sounds nice :-) Yes, I have been down that road with others. It seems to be a bit of academic religious proselytizing. You are a lowly student and therefore could never understand unless you devotedly sit at my feet and study for years. I have no expectation of starting at the top and working down. But the kernel must have entry points and exit points. Examining where the major services start and end must have some value. Besides most learning is iterative -- one starts somewhere, understands a bit, and keeps going around until they are back at the start ready add more. That said, tldp.org has some stuff, e.g. http://tldp.org/LDP/lki/index.html (Linux 2.4 Internals, a bit old but still useful). You might find http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ interesting as well. I've no doubt lurkers will appear to recommend other sources. poc Linux from Scratch looks interesting. Probably has everything in it that I want to look at -- at least to start. Thanks Patrick. -- Regards Bill; Fedora 9, Gnome 2.22.3 Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 17:38 -0400, William Case wrote: Yes, I have been down that road with others. It seems to be a bit of academic religious proselytizing. You are a lowly student and therefore could never understand unless you devotedly sit at my feet and study for years. Then you misunderstand me. I have no desire to put you off, rather to convey that this is exciting stuff. I have no expectation of starting at the top and working down. But the kernel must have entry points and exit points. Examining where the major services start and end must have some value. Well they mostly start and *don't* end unless something bad happens. That's one of the things that distinguishes kernels from the more familiar read input; process; produce output pattern of conventional software. Of course kernels also read input and produce output, but the model is on the whole not all that helpful. One of the main things a kernel does is juggle a zillion things happening at once so they don't interfere with each other (but can still communicate when required). To some extent a lot of application software is getting that way too nowadays. The difference is that apps can rely on a well-defined and semantically rich base of libraries to handle events and keep all the balls in the air, but the kernel has to do the heavy lifting itself. Besides most learning is iterative -- one starts somewhere, understands a bit, and keeps going around until they are back at the start ready add more. Naturally. As Pratchett says give a man a fire and you warm him for a day; set him on fire and you warm him for the rest of his life. Sorry, wandering again ... poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Fedora 9 'git' source kernel ??
Hi Patrick; On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 18:28 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 17:38 -0400, William Case wrote: Yes, I have been down that road with others. It seems to be a bit of academic religious proselytizing. You are a lowly student and therefore could never understand unless you devotedly sit at my feet and study for years. Then you misunderstand me. I have no desire to put you off, rather to convey that this is exciting stuff. No, No, Patrick then you misunderstood me. I was trying to give you a small complement for dealing in a straight manner rather than the usual pedantic crap one has to put up with ordinarily. poc -- Regards Bill; Fedora 9, Gnome 2.22.3 Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
