Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
AnneWilson wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2008 17:08:28 Gene Heskett wrote: As do I, David. And PA wrecked it all until I had gotten out the knife and removed as much of it as I could. This is not to say that something like PA isn't potentially useful, but to ship a completely broken PA, and then the only help offered was the advice to remove it, seems to be highly counter-productive to getting it, or something like it, working. However, here on this system PA was a solution (if it worked, I'm dubious) in search of a problem I didn't have. The funny thing is that on this system I can't get anything from the onboard sound, and I frequently get a 'falling back to pulse-audio'. So far, PA has played everything. The problem is that for telephony or sound recording you really need recording. It doesn't matter how well it plays sound you have, if you can no longer get new sound in. -- Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
AnneWilson wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2008 16:58:56 Bill Davidsen wrote: and it will NEVER be "improved" because they want it to work differently. So in your opinion 'different' can't ever be better? I define an improvement as doing something "better," as in faster, using fewer resources, more reliable, or with increased quality. So doing something else isn't an improvement, can't BE an improvement, it's just a work-around because the original functionality has been broken or removed by design. Like the highway dept telling me that they have put in a six lane divided highway, which improves my travel experience to a long detour to get where I want to go. -- Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Thursday 26 June 2008, Craig White wrote: >On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 21:29 +0100, AnneWilson wrote: >> On Thursday 26 June 2008 17:08:28 Gene Heskett wrote: >> > As do I, David. And PA wrecked it all until I had gotten out the knife >> > and removed as much of it as I could. This is not to say that something >> > like PA isn't potentially useful, but to ship a completely broken PA, >> > and then the only help offered was the advice to remove it, seems to be >> > highly counter-productive to getting it, or something like it, working. >> > >> > However, here on this system PA was a solution (if it worked, I'm >> > dubious) in search of a problem I didn't have. >> >> The funny thing is that on this system I can't get anything from the >> onboard sound, and I frequently get a 'falling back to pulse-audio'. So >> far, PA has played everything. > > >Gene struggled with pulseaudio and skype and multiple sound cards...his >situation was largely untypical (what a shock). Humm, now if one is going to use skype or ekiga, why not set it up to use a dedicated sound card so one isn't constantly tearing up a working audio system just to use an internet telephone? To me it made perfect sense to separate the functions at the outset & do away with all the tomfoolery and config clashes inherent in trying to make one sound card do it all? >Along with running GUI as root, building packages from source as root, >Gene sometimes is the poster boy for 'What not to do in Linux' - I'd >hardly give his opinions on pulseaudio a second thought. Gee, Craig, that from you is so mild it is almost praise. But let me advise you about me just a wee bit in case you've forgotten. I have never, ever fit the mold you want all the sheeple to fit into, and likely never will. Time, I'll give you, has caught up with me in my 7th decade, but I was fixing radios & tv's for a living while your parents were still in grammer school reading McGuffies if they were lucky. If they hadn't been born yet in 1946, then they sadly missed out on one of teachings best tools ever. Steve Ciarcia, editor/owner of Circuit Cellar Ink magazine said it best when we got into a discussion about education vs experience when he wrote to me and said "The only sheepskin that really counts is the one you sleep on." Mine is for the most part, pretty comfortable. How is yours? Yeah go ahead, call me a crotchety old fart. I'll buy Andy Rooney at least one of whatever he drinks if I ever get a chance to do it, I think we would see eye to eye on a lot of things called by various PC names, but which he and I will call common sense. Now back to your regularly scheduled cat herding. >Craig -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance? -- Charlie McCarthy -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Bill Davidsen tmr.com> writes: > I have the impression that for some users it will never be suitable, > because it is not an issue of bugs in the code, or missing features > which will be added, but a change in the underlying philosophy of how > users should use the desktop. And if the deliberate change doesn't suit > your preferred operation, you're in the market for either KDElegacy.org > or a totally new WM and utils. With the folderview applet (plasmoid) in KDE 4.1, you'll be able to use your desktop as a traditional desktop. (KDE 4.0 tries to support it, but the implementation as one plasmoid per icon is suboptimal, it will be better in 4.1.) You can also have more than one desktop folder, but the default will be only one, ~/Desktop, as usual. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 21:29 +0100, AnneWilson wrote: > On Thursday 26 June 2008 17:08:28 Gene Heskett wrote: > > As do I, David. And PA wrecked it all until I had gotten out the knife and > > removed as much of it as I could. This is not to say that something like > > PA isn't potentially useful, but to ship a completely broken PA, and then > > the only help offered was the advice to remove it, seems to be highly > > counter-productive to getting it, or something like it, working. > > > > However, here on this system PA was a solution (if it worked, I'm dubious) > > in search of a problem I didn't have. > > The funny thing is that on this system I can't get anything from the onboard > sound, and I frequently get a 'falling back to pulse-audio'. So far, PA has > played everything. Gene struggled with pulseaudio and skype and multiple sound cards...his situation was largely untypical (what a shock). Along with running GUI as root, building packages from source as root, Gene sometimes is the poster boy for 'What not to do in Linux' - I'd hardly give his opinions on pulseaudio a second thought. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Thursday 26 June 2008 16:58:56 Bill Davidsen wrote: > and it will NEVER be "improved" because they want it to work differently. So in your opinion 'different' can't ever be better? Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Thursday 26 June 2008 17:08:28 Gene Heskett wrote: > As do I, David. And PA wrecked it all until I had gotten out the knife and > removed as much of it as I could. This is not to say that something like > PA isn't potentially useful, but to ship a completely broken PA, and then > the only help offered was the advice to remove it, seems to be highly > counter-productive to getting it, or something like it, working. > > However, here on this system PA was a solution (if it worked, I'm dubious) > in search of a problem I didn't have. The funny thing is that on this system I can't get anything from the onboard sound, and I frequently get a 'falling back to pulse-audio'. So far, PA has played everything. Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Thursday 26 June 2008, Bill Davidsen wrote: >David Boles wrote: >> Arthur Pemberton wrote: >>> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Well the main idea behind PA is to eradicate that problem since it >>> will be a super set >> >> And, as I said, I have no problems with Pulseaudio. Why? Well I have a >> desktop >> with 'normal' hardware. I don't have anything fancy. And, for me Fedora >> works >> 'out of the box'. Actually I normally (currently) run rawhide and I only >> have >> the 'development breakage', to be expected, from time to time. >> >> I won't name, on the Fedora list, the other Linux distros that I have >> installed and that run with no, or minor, problems. But there are nine >> of them. A, Gee. We still have the 1st amendment here. >> So? Am I just lucky? Or do I just have compatible hardware? Or do I just >> not >> try to do "strange things'? I can't say. > >Have you ever tried to use a microphone or line input for recording or >telephony? I have four system, all of which worked pre-PA, none of which >work with PA, all of which work with PA removed, for both ALSA and >simulated OSS applications. So if trying to get sound into the computer >is "strange things," then I guess I do them. As do I, David. And PA wrecked it all until I had gotten out the knife and removed as much of it as I could. This is not to say that something like PA isn't potentially useful, but to ship a completely broken PA, and then the only help offered was the advice to remove it, seems to be highly counter-productive to getting it, or something like it, working. However, here on this system PA was a solution (if it worked, I'm dubious) in search of a problem I didn't have. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot? -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles wrote: Mike Bird wrote: On Sat June 21 2008 16:11:26 Kevin Kofler wrote: When KDE 4.0 was released in January a consensus was reached that major releases of KDE 4 should occur at six month intervals. Although there has been some discussion of four month cycles, the consensus for six month cycles still seems to be firm: KDE release -in->Fedora 4.0 Jan '08 F9 May '08 4.1 Jul '08 F10 Nov '08 4.2 Jan '09 F11 May '09 4.3 Jul '09 F12 Nov '09 Hey Mike. Have you ever seen software released when it was scheduled to be released? ;-) Not games (especially games), not drivers, not anything. Except Linux distro releases. And those slip too. Some slip so they can fix bugs, some ship bugs so they can be on time. :-( There's a reason why Linux kernels sometimes get to -rc7, I am truly sorry that you are disappointed with KDE 4.0. Really. But there it is. deal with it as it is and wait for improvements. Make suggestions, in the correct places, and go on. Did you miss the subject? The suggestion is that KDE 3.5 be included, as it is in RHEL, SuSE-11, Kubuntu, etc. I don't recall if you replied to my basic questions about this situation. Did you look first? Live-CD try first? Or just jump in? If you skipped one, or two, or both one and two, you should be kicking your own butt for your 'problems' and not Fedora's and the KDE team. IMO. Does it matter? If he tried the pre-releases, alpha and beta, and said "KDE doesn't work," would the team have stayed with KDE 3.5? No, because the decision wasn't made on the basis of functionality, and AFAIK the KDE developers view of how the user interface should work has changed, and it will NEVER be "improved" because they want it to work differently. -- Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Fri June 20 2008 18:50:45 David Boles wrote: But you do know that you new distro will switch to KDE 4.0 soon too right? Your definition of "soon" must be different than mine: Fedora will support KDE 3.5 until approximately December 2008. Kubuntu will support KDE 3.5 until approximately October 2009. Debian will support KDE 3.5 until maybe 2011 or 2012. CentOS-5.2 has 3.5 KDE, I presume the underlying RHEL will be around for the usual years. I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. I have the impression that for some users it will never be suitable, because it is not an issue of bugs in the code, or missing features which will be added, but a change in the underlying philosophy of how users should use the desktop. And if the deliberate change doesn't suit your preferred operation, you're in the market for either KDElegacy.org or a totally new WM and utils. They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. That leaves Fedora without support for a prime time KDE for several months. There's no such gap with Debian or Kubuntu. Other distros are also shipping KDE 3.5 alongside KDE 4.x but I haven't analyzed their timetables. --Mike Bird -- Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles wrote: Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well the main idea behind PA is to eradicate that problem since it will be a super set And, as I said, I have no problems with Pulseaudio. Why? Well I have a desktop with 'normal' hardware. I don't have anything fancy. And, for me Fedora works 'out of the box'. Actually I normally (currently) run rawhide and I only have the 'development breakage', to be expected, from time to time. I won't name, on the Fedora list, the other Linux distros that I have installed and that run with no, or minor, problems. But there are nine of them. So? Am I just lucky? Or do I just have compatible hardware? Or do I just not try to do "strange things'? I can't say. Have you ever tried to use a microphone or line input for recording or telephony? I have four system, all of which worked pre-PA, none of which work with PA, all of which work with PA removed, for both ALSA and simulated OSS applications. So if trying to get sound into the computer is "strange things," then I guess I do them. I mentioned before about a Linux problem and dumping a ZIP Drive to solve it. That was with Mandrake 7.0. Circa 2000 or so. -- Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Timothy Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > >>> One thing that slightly surprises me is that having a server >>> that runs 5 times as fast, with 4 times as much memory, >>> as my greatly-loved ancient Asus server >>> does not in fact seem to speed anything up noticeably. >> >> I am guessing your network is your current bottleneck > > Isn't it everybody's? > > I'm only using this machine as a server - httpd, mysql, > openldap, etc. > I guess the slowest machine in the world is going to be faster > than my reasonably fast (4Mb/s) ADSL connection. Exactly. If you're not going to be hitting Mysql with heavy queries, a 1GHz Celeron sans xorg would probably server you just as well. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Arthur Pemberton wrote: >> One thing that slightly surprises me is that having a server >> that runs 5 times as fast, with 4 times as much memory, >> as my greatly-loved ancient Asus server >> does not in fact seem to speed anything up noticeably. > > I am guessing your network is your current bottleneck Isn't it everybody's? I'm only using this machine as a server - httpd, mysql, openldap, etc. I guess the slowest machine in the world is going to be faster than my reasonably fast (4Mb/s) ADSL connection. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Timothy Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > David Boles wrote: > One thing that slightly surprises me is that having a server > that runs 5 times as fast, with 4 times as much memory, > as my greatly-loved ancient Asus server > does not in fact seem to speed anything up noticeably. I am guessing your network is your current bottleneck -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 14:57 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > One thing that slightly surprises me is that having a server > that runs 5 times as fast, with 4 times as much memory, > as my greatly-loved ancient Asus server > does not in fact seem to speed anything up noticeably. A computer spends much of its time doing nothing, faster PCs have more spare time. Do something that does require lots of computing, such as ray tracing, 3D game video generation, video MPEG encoding, etc., and you will notice the difference. For other less intensive tasks, word processing, etc., much of the slowness is down to other things, like the disc drive (starting the program, opening/saving data, loading fonts, etc.). Which is much much slower than the processor. Likewise with booting a computer, we spend a lot of time waiting for things to load, more than we spend waiting for actual computing. Although the parsing of plain text configuration files can be quite a slow down. You'll notice Squid and Apache, for example, are much quicker to start up on older computers if you strip out all the comments in the text file. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles wrote: > A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, > for a server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there > are many others, in a production type situation. I'm glad, and a little surprised, to find that I am not "foolish", at least in this regard. I feel I should be given a "sensible" badge. I acquired an incredibly cheap Dell server a few months ago, and somewhat to my surprise found the only OS's they supported were Centos and Windows Server (ie not what I regard as standard Windows). In fact the whole setup was Centos- or at least Linux-based, even if you were using Windows Server. I must admit Centos (5.1) has run faultlessly since I got the server. I'm pretty sure I would have had a few problems if I had been running F-9. One thing that slightly surprises me is that having a server that runs 5 times as fast, with 4 times as much memory, as my greatly-loved ancient Asus server does not in fact seem to speed anything up noticeably. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 20:41 -0400, Kelly Miller wrote: > > On June 22, 2008 8:00:27 am Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > > Em Domingo 22 Junho 2008, Kelly Miller escreveu: > > > > And don't give me the crap that Fedora is bleeding edge software. > > > > F9 is beyond bleeding, its suicidal. > > > > > > Actually, I find that greatly ironic, as I switched temporarily to > > > openSUSE because IMO Fedora isn't moving fast ENOUGH for my taste. I > > > really really want to run KDE 4.1 (which IS most definitely usable as > > > a desktop, and a rather excellent one I might add), but Fedora only > > > has it in Rawhide, and uh... Rawhide blows up way too often for my > > > liking. I'm probably going to switch back to Fedora when KDE 4.1 is > > > finally released for Fedora 9. > > > > KDE 4.0.83 is available for Fedora in kde-redhat unstable repo. It works > > quite well. > > > > []'s > > Marcelo > > That had to have changed recently (as in, the last month or so), because I > actually checked for a F-9 port of KDE 4.1 beta in kde-redhat when I > upgraded, > and didn't find one. I always hook into kde-redhat, even though it's not as > much use now as it was when I started with FC5 (since most of what kde-redhat > had is now in Fedora itself). I installed it last night. Seems to work mostly. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:18 -0400, David Boles wrote: > Ric Moore wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 05:56 +, g wrote: > > > > It might be better to avoid the use of "labels" as much as possible. I > > know it's hard to do in practice. Sadly, I have my share of favorites. > > "Idiot" just rolls off the fingers when typing it. So does "Twit". > > That's a really good one. "Stupid" gets my hackles up though, I'll > > battle on that one. > > > > Again, it's better to not use them at all. Ric > > > A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for a > server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are many > others, in a production type situation. Something that changes as often, as > quickly, and a radically as Fedora does not, would not, be a good choice for a > stable LAN or production system. Only if you want to be cheap and get 'the > free stuff' would it make sense. And then 'they' would have to deal with the > problems. > > So tell me Ric. What would you call someone that would do this, described > above? Bob? Fred? Or a fool? Well, there is an alternative reason, like mine. I've been using RedHat since the living room days with a pile of floppies and later a CD! to install from. Got a job at RedHat even. I know Bob Young quite well. So, there is some emotional/intellectual "attachment" to Fedora as it sorta replaced what was the cheap-seats box set. It was a stab in the heart to have that part of RedHat closed down, not long after Bob left. So, I'm sure that some, like me, hoped that Fedora would become the community that replaced the box sets and would have SOME sane margin of stability. It absolutely KILLS me to have to switch. But, the only way through to Acceptance is to experience the first four of the five stages of grief, Denial, Anger, Bargaining, and Depression. I've done that finally by giving up and receiving Acceptance. It's been hard on me. It's like another divorce. I've already had 3 1/2 of those. Some of my colleagues are using Ubuntu Hardy Heron, which the Wonderland devel folks use, and they have zero problems getting X11 apps to run. Xvfb works there and not here, for whatever Wonderland does with it. That was the last straw. I bargained asking for help here, got zip. Fsck it. I'm not getting younger and 2.7 million potential clients is nothing to sneeze at. Finally got the funds for the satellite from our Non-Profit and it's on order tomorrow. I'll give CentOS a shot, but if I have the same problems it'll be a goner quickly ... like within minutes. Then I'll be done with the rpm world for good. Sad day, end of a personal era. I sure haven't arrived here easily. I had hoped to pay forward the good that people like Bob Young had done for me and introduce RedHat to a bunch of state DOC sites. To assist the Debian folks instead sticks in my craw ...lot's of old baggage there from the Old Days. Plus another learning curve added to the learning curves I've already put myself into. I see no other way to end the pain it's caused. Does that make me foolish?? No, just trying to do what I considered the "Right Thing". To me it makes no sense whatsoever, to stride boldly ahead with the newest when there is so much breaking behind. THAT is foolish, IMHO. Others have noted the same thing and have been vocal about it. Pulseaudio is a case in point. Some have no problems with it, some find it impossible. Freeze things until it works for the largest amount of folks. Same with Xorg. That would be functional to have some actual concerns for the lowest common denominator of user. To me "Community" denotes Extended Family. A Functional Family lives to meet the needs of its "Children". In a Dysfunctional Family, the Children live to meet the needs of the Parents. Please, do not call this a "community" when the avowed goals are that the children (users) meet the needs of the parents (RedHat). Please call it something other than a community. It's misleading and harmful. If someone wants to raise hell over my observation, fine. But, remember the first stage of Grief is "Denial". Print this out, run it by a shrink and see what he sees in what I have written. I'm doing a "Stop-Switch" and seeking better parents. I'll always be grateful and in Gift-Debt forever to Bob Young. I'll just have to find another way to repay the debt. Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar https://oar.dev.java.net/ Verizon Cell # 336-254-1339 - -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 00:32 -0400, Claude Jones wrote: > There's someone on this list who is running a huge cluster of Fedora > servers doing scientific work in a Govt. agency. There are many, many > others running Fedora in production situations... In business, you use whatever does the job. While some are precious about using only particular things, others only care about results. If Fedora does it, you can use it. For my money, it certainly couldn't be worse than Windows. :-) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:18 -0400, David Boles wrote: > A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many > others, for a server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as > Fedora, there are many others, in a production type situation. > Something that changes as often, as quickly, and a radically as Fedora > does not, would not, be a good choice for a stable LAN or production > system. I could imagine the situation where you run a fairly simple server, one that does just one or two things (like a webserver without extensive databases), and if you were an admin that were always keeping up to date with updates, that there's not a great deal of difference between updating a collection of RPMs, to updating all of them with a new distro. But once you make a server complicated (throw in mail, databases, user file storage, etc.), rapid distro updating does become a much greater nuisance, and you will want a base system with a longer life. I can't say that I've really come across updates that made a system unstable or plain broken. And that sort of thing could just as easily happen while updating packages on another distro with a longer life than Fedora. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun June 22 2008, David Boles wrote: > So tell me Ric. What would you call someone that would do this, described > above? Bob? Fred? Or a fool? There's someone on this list who is running a huge cluster of Fedora servers doing scientific work in a Govt. agency. There are many, many others running Fedora in production situations... They post here all the time. So, I think Bob and Fred ought to tell David to get off his high horse - the fact that he can't imagine such uses doesn't mean that his pontifications are with merit. But, I doubt they'll do much good. -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles gmail.com> writes: > So what are you saying here? Yahoo should run Fedora on theri > servers? Or Google? Or NASA? NASA actually uses Fedora on some of their machines. They do also use RHEL though. See Jack Aboutboul's account: http://jaboutboul.blogspot.com/2008/02/fedora-on-final-frontier.html Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Sun June 22 2008 19:18:46 David Boles wrote: A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for a server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are many others, in a production type situation. Would it meet your definition of "foolish" for a Gnome user such as yourself to keep posting off-topic comments about servers in a KDE thread discussing production workstations - i.e. workstations used for office work, web design, software development, systems management, etc? GNOME and KDE have little to do with this. KDE and GNOME are DM. Desktops. Pretty GUIs. If you use 'real' application for your work they should work in either. Actually they should work in X alone and not need either GNOME or KGE at all. I now consider myself foolish for trying to discuss this with those that will not be helped. Enjoy KDE 4.x and have a nice day. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White wrote: On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:19 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: 2. It attaches a negative aspersion to anyone who doesn't agree with your thinking. Doesn't mean it's wrong. There's a philosophy on the ruby on rails list - in fact all ruby lists relating to the author of the ruby language...Matz MINASWAN (Matz is nice and so we are nice) It would serve this list well too because the insults are so pointless and tiring. Now wait a minute. I said that IMO to run a Fedora install as a for real, important, have to have working server and to run the same OS on the same system where this really needs to work to pay the bills was, again IMO, foolish. So what are you saying here? Yahoo should run Fedora on theri servers? Or Google? Or NASA? Get real. They use the 'real stuff'. Ya' know supported, stable, etc. I use fedora because I want to do so. But I do not use Fedora, or any other Linux disro, as the source of my income. I did *not* say that Linux was bad. I did *not* say that Fedora was bad. What I said was that using a rolling target like Fedora for your livelihood was not, IMO, a great idea. You might think differently. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:19 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > 2. It attaches a negative aspersion to anyone who doesn't agree with > > your thinking. > > Doesn't mean it's wrong. There's a philosophy on the ruby on rails list - in fact all ruby lists relating to the author of the ruby language...Matz MINASWAN (Matz is nice and so we are nice) It would serve this list well too because the insults are so pointless and tiring. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Craig White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:18 -0400, David Boles wrote: >> Ric Moore wrote: >> > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 05:56 +, g wrote: >> > >> > It might be better to avoid the use of "labels" as much as possible. I >> > know it's hard to do in practice. Sadly, I have my share of favorites. >> > "Idiot" just rolls off the fingers when typing it. So does "Twit". >> > That's a really good one. "Stupid" gets my hackles up though, I'll >> > battle on that one. >> > >> > Again, it's better to not use them at all. Ric >> >> >> A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for a >> server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are many >> others, in a production type situation. Something that changes as often, as >> quickly, and a radically as Fedora does not, would not, be a good choice for >> a >> stable LAN or production system. Only if you want to be cheap and get 'the >> free stuff' would it make sense. And then 'they' would have to deal with the >> problems. >> >> So tell me Ric. What would you call someone that would do this, described >> above? Bob? Fred? Or a fool? > > I have a problem with this thinking... > > 1. It presupposes what you are calling a production server. A server where you're not regularly adding new features to its software lineup > 2. It attaches a negative aspersion to anyone who doesn't agree with > your thinking. Doesn't mean it's wrong. > I can think of several scenarios off the top of my head where a Fedora > server would probably be preferable to CentOS/RHEL... > > - Thin client server (like LTSP) where I want newer end user > applications. I would think you would wanted tested, proven and stable apps for such a thing. > - Special application server like Ruby on Rails that does things like > image manipulation. I don't see what that has to do with Centos vs. Fedora. > So yes, I do think it's not only possible but sometimes useful if not > necessary to use something a little more bleeding edge than stable as a > server and not at all foolish. Possible, but rare. To each their own I guess. > Please stop with the over-arching characterizations that only serve to > further your narrow point of view. . -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun June 22 2008 19:18:46 David Boles wrote: > A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for > a server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are > many others, in a production type situation. Would it meet your definition of "foolish" for a Gnome user such as yourself to keep posting off-topic comments about servers in a KDE thread discussing production workstations - i.e. workstations used for office work, web design, software development, systems management, etc? --Mike Bird -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 22:18 -0400, David Boles wrote: > Ric Moore wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 05:56 +, g wrote: > > > > It might be better to avoid the use of "labels" as much as possible. I > > know it's hard to do in practice. Sadly, I have my share of favorites. > > "Idiot" just rolls off the fingers when typing it. So does "Twit". > > That's a really good one. "Stupid" gets my hackles up though, I'll > > battle on that one. > > > > Again, it's better to not use them at all. Ric > > > A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for a > server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are many > others, in a production type situation. Something that changes as often, as > quickly, and a radically as Fedora does not, would not, be a good choice for a > stable LAN or production system. Only if you want to be cheap and get 'the > free stuff' would it make sense. And then 'they' would have to deal with the > problems. > > So tell me Ric. What would you call someone that would do this, described > above? Bob? Fred? Or a fool? I have a problem with this thinking... 1. It presupposes what you are calling a production server. 2. It attaches a negative aspersion to anyone who doesn't agree with your thinking. I can think of several scenarios off the top of my head where a Fedora server would probably be preferable to CentOS/RHEL... - Thin client server (like LTSP) where I want newer end user applications. - Special application server like Ruby on Rails that does things like image manipulation. So yes, I do think it's not only possible but sometimes useful if not necessary to use something a little more bleeding edge than stable as a server and not at all foolish. Please stop with the over-arching characterizations that only serve to further your narrow point of view. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Ric Moore wrote: On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 05:56 +, g wrote: It might be better to avoid the use of "labels" as much as possible. I know it's hard to do in practice. Sadly, I have my share of favorites. "Idiot" just rolls off the fingers when typing it. So does "Twit". That's a really good one. "Stupid" gets my hackles up though, I'll battle on that one. Again, it's better to not use them at all. Ric A sensible person would run CentOS, or RHEL, or one of the many others, for a server. It would be foolish to run any distro, such as Fedora, there are many others, in a production type situation. Something that changes as often, as quickly, and a radically as Fedora does not, would not, be a good choice for a stable LAN or production system. Only if you want to be cheap and get 'the free stuff' would it make sense. And then 'they' would have to deal with the problems. So tell me Ric. What would you call someone that would do this, described above? Bob? Fred? Or a fool? BTW: Main Entry: Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French fol, from Late Latin follis, from Latin, bellows, bag; akin to Old High German bolla blister, balg bag — more at belly Date: 13th century 1: a person lacking in judgment or prudence -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 05:56 +, g wrote: > David Boles wrote: > > Then, if I was you I would run to these other distros and drop Fedora > > like a hot brick. Oh, BTW, IMO *anyone* that would use Fedora version > > anything in a production environment is a fool. Fedora itself has said > > that. Many times. > > david, > > please do not call someone a 'fool'. dumb, stupid, crazy, or insane. > but never a 'fool'. > > if you do not understand why i say this, please contact me _off_list_ > and i will be glad to explain. It might be better to avoid the use of "labels" as much as possible. I know it's hard to do in practice. Sadly, I have my share of favorites. "Idiot" just rolls off the fingers when typing it. So does "Twit". That's a really good one. "Stupid" gets my hackles up though, I'll battle on that one. Again, it's better to not use them at all. Ric > > > My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: > "There are two Great Sins in the world... > ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. > Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. > Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ > http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar > https://oar.dev.java.net/ > Verizon Cell # 336-254-1339 > - -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On June 22, 2008 8:00:27 am Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > Em Domingo 22 Junho 2008, Kelly Miller escreveu: > > > And don't give me the crap that Fedora is bleeding edge software. > > > F9 is beyond bleeding, its suicidal. > > > > Actually, I find that greatly ironic, as I switched temporarily to > > openSUSE because IMO Fedora isn't moving fast ENOUGH for my taste. I > > really really want to run KDE 4.1 (which IS most definitely usable as > > a desktop, and a rather excellent one I might add), but Fedora only > > has it in Rawhide, and uh... Rawhide blows up way too often for my > > liking. I'm probably going to switch back to Fedora when KDE 4.1 is > > finally released for Fedora 9. > > KDE 4.0.83 is available for Fedora in kde-redhat unstable repo. It works > quite well. > > []'s > Marcelo That had to have changed recently (as in, the last month or so), because I actually checked for a F-9 port of KDE 4.1 beta in kde-redhat when I upgraded, and didn't find one. I always hook into kde-redhat, even though it's not as much use now as it was when I started with FC5 (since most of what kde-redhat had is now in Fedora itself). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Francis Earl gmail.com> writes: > If you really want KDE3, just set up a repo in Koji and be done with it. Koji personal repos are not implemented yet. > KDE doesn't even have any type of SELinux support, so the leading reason > for using Fedora isn't even applicable for it... Huh? The point of SELinux is that it should just work, i.e. not get in the way and not need special "support", and that should be the case at this point. Not that SELinux is that useful anyway for the average user... Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Em Domingo 22 Junho 2008, Kelly Miller escreveu: > > And don't give me the crap that Fedora is bleeding edge software. > > F9 is beyond bleeding, its suicidal. > > Actually, I find that greatly ironic, as I switched temporarily to > openSUSE because IMO Fedora isn't moving fast ENOUGH for my taste. I > really really want to run KDE 4.1 (which IS most definitely usable as > a desktop, and a rather excellent one I might add), but Fedora only > has it in Rawhide, and uh... Rawhide blows up way too often for my > liking. I'm probably going to switch back to Fedora when KDE 4.1 is > finally released for Fedora 9. KDE 4.0.83 is available for Fedora in kde-redhat unstable repo. It works quite well. []'s Marcelo -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
[Tim wrote about sound mixing] Patrick O'Callaghan: >> Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the >> various mixer controls even control. David Boles: > It is a choice. If you, either of you, do not like it you should disable it. > But I seriously doubt that Pulseaudio will 'just go away' because you don't > like it. ;-) What I wrote was less about pulse audio, per se, but the whole idea of sound mixing, with or without it. Pulse audio gives you individual volume levels, but really they're controlled from the wrong place. Alsa is somewhat similar. I see the value of being able to call up a mixer, and adjust levels. But let that be a remote. So if you adjust volume on your CD player, it's the *same* as adjusting it on the mixer (not two interactive controls - have the same control in two places). Pulse audio comes into it's own when you do something like turn the sound down on your ogg player, and only the ogg player, you don't adjust all the PCM devices, or screw around with the master control. But, again, the volume control on the player should be the *same* control that you get to play with on the mixer panel. And quite why we have two messily interdependent volume control mixer thingoes is beyond me (on Gnome, at least). We have the volume control thing, that we've been used to over the last few years, plus the pulse audio volume controller. And both need playing with to hear sound. Which is made all the more harder by pulse audio's controls disappearing and appearing, depending on whether your audio software is currently playing, or not. And going back to something I touched on in my original message, the average set of system annunciators are stupidly created, anyway. Yes, you probably do want a loud "red alert" sound file for big warnings and emergencies. But you want much softer dings and beeps for things like incoming messages, and "okay" responses. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
> Actually, I find that greatly ironic, as I switched temporarily to openSUSE > because IMO Fedora isn't moving fast ENOUGH for my taste. I too did this briefly, but they can't even keep their mirrors operational on release day, and the system gets in your way entirely too much, so I'm back... > I really really > want to run KDE 4.1 (which IS most definitely usable as a desktop, and a > rather excellent one I might add) I disagree for many uses of usable. It lacks entirely too much still (4.00.82) for my liking. It's currently worse than Gnome for hiding features and the like... I truly despise what I've seen of their current direction, and there is now truly nothing that seperates KDE from anything else. QGTKStyle ensures the apps will look native in Gnome too, so I think I've lost interest in KDE entirely. > Actually, the whole KDE argument was bound to be brought up. I really don't understand it at all honestly. Fedora is about forward looking software, why would it continue to support software that is no longer maintained? If you really want KDE3, just set up a repo in Koji and be done with it. Supporting KDE3 when there is KDE4 is _exactly_ the sort of thing that is APPEALING about Fedora. KDE3 is getting _very_ little maintenance since KDE4 was released, so it would add even more of a burden on developers. If you disagree with the rationale, go find a distro that still has it! The KDE team will hate me for saying this, but what kind of respectable KDE user uses a non-KDE distro anyways? The man-power behind KDE on Fedora is pathetic - and I honestly hope it doesn't get better. Fedora is a Gnome distro, and new features are considered with Gnome in mind. KDE doesn't even have any type of SELinux support, so the leading reason for using Fedora isn't even applicable for it... this isn't going to change either, the bulk of KDE based distros are using AppArmor. Before you rebuff this with "You're a Gnome zealot blah blah blah", I was a KDE zealot for about 5 years, I just got sick of all the memory leaks (kio_http and kio_file mostly) and the constant breakages. This still hasn't been fixed. After about 10 days of using KDE, _all_ of my RAM is always used (2 gigs), that is unacceptable, especially when 1.2 gigs is resident RAM. Makes it hard to do other useful things like run a web server etc... not to mention having hard drives spinning due to swap is _loud_. (this post isn't directed entirely at yourself, just in general at this thread) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Ed Greshko wrote: I thing this should read: In a free world without fences, who needs Gates. i will 'shift+g' for God, but never for bill. ;o) -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
> And don't give me the crap that Fedora is bleeding edge software. F9 > is beyond bleeding, its suicidal. Actually, I find that greatly ironic, as I switched temporarily to openSUSE because IMO Fedora isn't moving fast ENOUGH for my taste. I really really want to run KDE 4.1 (which IS most definitely usable as a desktop, and a rather excellent one I might add), but Fedora only has it in Rawhide, and uh... Rawhide blows up way too often for my liking. I'm probably going to switch back to Fedora when KDE 4.1 is finally released for Fedora 9. Actually, the whole KDE argument was bound to be brought up; I know a number of people mentioned that KDE 4.0 was likely to drive longtime KDE 3.5 users crazy. However, I can see the logic in trying to move towards it, as it gives the devs and packagers a chance to find and fix bugs and figure out what's missing before KDE 4.1... -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
g wrote: in a free world without fences, who needs gates. I thing this should read: In a free world without fences, who needs Gates. :-) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles wrote: Then, if I was you I would run to these other distros and drop Fedora like a hot brick. Oh, BTW, IMO *anyone* that would use Fedora version anything in a production environment is a fool. Fedora itself has said that. Many times. david, please do not call someone a 'fool'. dumb, stupid, crazy, or insane. but never a 'fool'. if you do not understand why i say this, please contact me _off_list_ and i will be glad to explain. -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Sat June 21 2008 19:15:57 David Boles wrote: David, you asked this question. I answered it. You asked if I had answered your question and asked your question again. I answered your question again. Now you reply to my answer to your question by asking the same question again. We tested F9 but we did not deploy F9 because of KDE 4. You have already admitted that you're a Gnome user rather than a KDE user. Yet you have posted 17 times in this KDE thread, repeating the same questions over and over again. Admited> No. I stated that I am a GNOME user. KDE has done nothing wrong. The problem is that Fedora is the only distro not supporting KDE 3.5 until KDE 4 is ready for prime time. And the solution, which has been repeatedly expressed here, is for people using KDE in production environments to switch to a different distro. End of story. Then, if I was you I would run to these other distros and drop Fedora like a hot brick. Oh, BTW, IMO *anyone* that would use Fedora version anything in a production environment is a fool. Fedora itself has said that. Many times. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 20:28 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 23:24 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: Craig White azapple.com> writes: People who do software development wouldn't care whether it's KDE 3.5 or KDE 4 Actually they'll want KDE 4. Who wants to develop against an obsolete API? KDE developers, sure. There's other software in the world than GUI-based desktop apps. and it was this class that I was referring to. people who develop software can maneuver around little things that are missing or don't seem to work properly. the issue of unleashing KDE-4 on less technically skilled, un-savvy computer users is something that I'm still balking at but I'm not complaining...just noting. I have no choice because I am dealing with a bunch of users that save files to their desktop and drag them where they want them and simply do not understand file-save dialog boxes and how to move around in them. That sounds like quite a task. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat June 21 2008 19:15:57 David Boles wrote: > If you tried KDE 4.0 and it was not suitable I gather that you stayed with > F-8 and KDE 3.5.9? Or did you upgrade anyway? Bitching and whining about > this solves nothing. David, you asked this question. I answered it. You asked if I had answered your question and asked your question again. I answered your question again. Now you reply to my answer to your question by asking the same question again. We tested F9 but we did not deploy F9 because of KDE 4. You have already admitted that you're a Gnome user rather than a KDE user. Yet you have posted 17 times in this KDE thread, repeating the same questions over and over again. > As for complaining? Wrong list. Go to a KDE list, or their bugzilla, and > bitch and whine there. KDE has done nothing wrong. The problem is that Fedora is the only distro not supporting KDE 3.5 until KDE 4 is ready for prime time. And the solution, which has been repeatedly expressed here, is for people using KDE in production environments to switch to a different distro. End of story. --Mike Bird -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird yosemite.net> writes: > KDE 4.0 was released on schedule in January. KDE 4.0 was originally scheduled for October 23, 2007, and even that was only after months of mostly unscheduled development, with suggested release dates as early as Fall 2006. > KDE 4.1 is still on track for July. Yes, but KDE 4.2 has no schedule decided at all. It could be released on a 6-month schedule, on a 9-month schedule or on something inbetween. So it's too early to assume KDE 4.2 will be out in January. > Most Fedora and Ubuntu releases are on time. Which distro do you use? Fedora releases frequently slip by a couple of weeks. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Sat June 21 2008 16:53:07 David Boles wrote: KDE 4.0 was released on schedule in January. KDE 4.1 is still on track for July. So you did see the proposed schedule? And were aware of the possible problems. Good work. Most Fedora and Ubuntu releases are on time. Which distro do you use? I use Fedora. I normally use Rawhide because I do not have a production system. I can live with the often problems. Since i do not really follow releases, mine is a daily release, I don't recall if it was Fedora 7 or Fedora 8 that was late. Yes, I answered your questions. We installed F9 on test boxes. F9 is not deployable because of KDE 4. We did not put F9 on any production boxes. Please see the subject of this thread. The question is not whether people were surprised by KDE 4. Everyone knows KDE 4 will take a while before it's useful. Even Aaron is disappointed that critical functionality missed not only 4.0 but also 4.1. The question is whether Fedora would provide a migration path by supporting KDE 3.5 in F10. And the answer was a resounding "this is too difficult so go use another distro". Hmm... so you are saying that Fedora should continue to provide support for KDE 3.5.9. A DM that has, it appears, been dropped by KDE for their new release. KDE 4.x. Since, again it appears, that there won't be any new KDE 3.5.9 'stuff' from KDE just what would you expect Fedora to do? Write 'stuff' for KDE? If you read what Anne wrote Mandriva is trying the duel path. And it fails miserably. So you want Fedora to follow that path too? Why? One question. If, *if*, KDE is mission critical for you just why did you/are upgrading? Why not wait for Fedora 10 and a maybe more stable KDE? It has been years ago but I seem to recall a very similar situation when KDE went from 2.x to 3.x. If you tried KDE 4.0 and it was not suitable I gather that you stayed with F-8 and KDE 3.5.9? Or did you upgrade anyway? Bitching and whining about this solves nothing. Fedora is *not* in control of what KDE does. But *you* are in control of what you do with your machines. And as for a "a migration path"? You have one. Stay with stable Fedora 8/KDE 3.5.9 or upgrade to Fedora 9 with KDE 4.x and live with it untill it functions as you wish. The choice *is* yours to make. Do it. Or don't do it. Pick one. As for complaining? Wrong list. Go to a KDE list, or their bugzilla, and bitch and whine there. This topic is getting boring. I'm done here. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat June 21 2008 16:53:07 David Boles wrote: > Hey Mike. Have you ever seen software released when it was scheduled to be > released? ;-) Not games (especially games), not drivers, not anything. KDE 4.0 was released on schedule in January. KDE 4.1 is still on track for July. > Except Linux distro releases. And those slip too. Most Fedora and Ubuntu releases are on time. Which distro do you use? > I don't recall if you replied to my basic questions about this situation. Yes, I answered your questions. > Did you look first? Live-CD try first? Or just jump in? If you skipped one, > or two, or both one and two, you should be kicking your own butt for your > 'problems' and not Fedora's and the KDE team. IMO. We installed F9 on test boxes. F9 is not deployable because of KDE 4. We did not put F9 on any production boxes. Please see the subject of this thread. The question is not whether people were surprised by KDE 4. Everyone knows KDE 4 will take a while before it's useful. Even Aaron is disappointed that critical functionality missed not only 4.0 but also 4.1. The question is whether Fedora would provide a migration path by supporting KDE 3.5 in F10. And the answer was a resounding "this is too difficult so go use another distro". --Mike Bird -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 22:51 +, g wrote: > Craig White wrote: > > It was started again virtually from scratch (KDE-4) > > from where do you find this information? if you were running Fedora 9, you would know this because if it were just migrating from QT-3 to QT-4, many of the applications would have all just been ported over already. Instead, they have kept their QT-3 libs and previous form. # rpm -qa|grep kdelibs kdelibs-4.0.5-2.fc9.i386 kdelibs3-devel-3.5.9-15.fc9.i386 kdelibs-common-4.0.5-2.fc9.i386 kdelibs-devel-4.0.5-2.fc9.i386 kdelibs3-3.5.9-15.fc9.i386 Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird yosemite.net> writes: > KDE release -in-≥Fedora > 4.0 Jan '08 F9 May '08 > 4.1 Jul '08 F10 Nov '08 F9-updates-testing Jul/Aug '08 F9-updates Aug '08 At least that's the plan. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 20:28 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 23:24 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Craig White azapple.com> writes: > > > People who do software development wouldn't care whether it's KDE 3.5 or > > > KDE 4 > > > > Actually they'll want KDE 4. Who wants to develop against an obsolete API? > > KDE developers, sure. There's other software in the world than > GUI-based desktop apps. and it was this class that I was referring to. people who develop software can maneuver around little things that are missing or don't seem to work properly. the issue of unleashing KDE-4 on less technically skilled, un-savvy computer users is something that I'm still balking at but I'm not complaining...just noting. I have no choice because I am dealing with a bunch of users that save files to their desktop and drag them where they want them and simply do not understand file-save dialog boxes and how to move around in them. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
g wrote: >> Seems to me you ought to clarify your problem, >> eg what do you mean by "log out"? > > seems to me, you should read what is written and if you do not understand, > then reread it. I read it quite carefully. You seem to use "shutdown" and "log out" interchangeably. They are completely different operations. >> Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? > > if it will not 'shutdown', then i kill it. It's not surprising to me that you have problems. >> I'm pretty sure that if you said what machine you are using, >> and expressed your problem clearly, it would be solved very shortly. > > what 'machine'? i am talking about a computer. Sigh. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 23:24 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Craig White azapple.com> writes: > > People who do software development wouldn't care whether it's KDE 3.5 or > > KDE 4 > > Actually they'll want KDE 4. Who wants to develop against an obsolete API? KDE developers, sure. There's other software in the world than GUI-based desktop apps. > > Kevin Kofler > > -- Matthew Saltzman Clemson University Math Sciences mjs AT clemson DOT edu http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Sat June 21 2008 16:11:26 Kevin Kofler wrote: When KDE 4.0 was released in January a consensus was reached that major releases of KDE 4 should occur at six month intervals. Although there has been some discussion of four month cycles, the consensus for six month cycles still seems to be firm: KDE release -in->Fedora 4.0 Jan '08 F9 May '08 4.1 Jul '08 F10 Nov '08 4.2 Jan '09 F11 May '09 4.3 Jul '09 F12 Nov '09 Hey Mike. Have you ever seen software released when it was scheduled to be released? ;-) Not games (especially games), not drivers, not anything. Except Linux distro releases. And those slip too. I am truly sorry that you are disappointed with KDE 4.0. Really. But there it is. deal with it as it is and wait for improvements. Make suggestions, in the correct places, and go on. I don't recall if you replied to my basic questions about this situation. Did you look first? Live-CD try first? Or just jump in? If you skipped one, or two, or both one and two, you should be kicking your own butt for your 'problems' and not Fedora's and the KDE team. IMO. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat June 21 2008 16:11:26 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Mike Bird yosemite.net> writes: > > I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. > > They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. > > I can't promise anything at this time (also because upstream hasn't decided > on a schedule for 4.2 yet, at least not that I know of), but KDE 4.2 could > hit Fedora as soon as February 2009, as a Fedora 10 (maybe also Fedora 9) > update. All this is not decided yet (and again, it also depends on > upstream), but it is no way a sure thing that 4.2 will only hit in May. When KDE 4.0 was released in January a consensus was reached that major releases of KDE 4 should occur at six month intervals. Although there has been some discussion of four month cycles, the consensus for six month cycles still seems to be firm: KDE release -in->Fedora 4.0 Jan '08 F9 May '08 4.1 Jul '08 F10 Nov '08 4.2 Jan '09 F11 May '09 4.3 Jul '09 F12 Nov '09 --Mike Bird -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Kevin Kofler wrote: Mike Bird yosemite.net> writes: I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. I can't promise anything at this time (also because upstream hasn't decided on a schedule for 4.2 yet, at least not that I know of), but KDE 4.2 could hit Fedora as soon as February 2009, as a Fedora 10 (maybe also Fedora 9) update. All this is not decided yet (and again, it also depends on upstream), but it is no way a sure thing that 4.2 will only hit in May. Kevin, Inhale - hold - exhale - pause - repeat. ;-) You KDE people (team?) are doing a fine job. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well the main idea behind PA is to eradicate that problem since it will be a super set And, as I said, I have no problems with Pulseaudio. Why? Well I have a desktop with 'normal' hardware. I don't have anything fancy. And, for me Fedora works 'out of the box'. Actually I normally (currently) run rawhide and I only have the 'development breakage', to be expected, from time to time. I won't name, on the Fedora list, the other Linux distros that I have installed and that run with no, or minor, problems. But there are nine of them. So? Am I just lucky? Or do I just have compatible hardware? Or do I just not try to do "strange things'? I can't say. I mentioned before about a Linux problem and dumping a ZIP Drive to solve it. That was with Mandrake 7.0. Circa 2000 or so. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White azapple.com> writes: > It was started again virtually from scratch (KDE-4) That is one of those partial truths: yes, the main user-visible parts of the desktop workspace were rewritten (Kicker and KDesktop replaced by Plasma), but a lot of things have been ported: most of kdelibs, several applications such as Konqueror, KWrite and many more. Other applications such as Dolphin and Gwenview are new as parts of KDE itself (and do replace KDE 3 apps: Dolphin replaces Konqueror as the default file manager and Konqueror's file management support has been rewritten to use the DolphinPart, Gwenview completely replaces Kuickshow), but have existed as separate KDE 3 applications before. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Timothy Murphy eircom.net> writes: > It seems to me quite difficult to run KDE-3 and KDE-4 on the same machine. > How exactly do you do it? > Do you share the same /home partition between the two? What the distributions shipping parallel-installable KDE 3 and 4 do is to use a completely separate configuration directory for KDE 4, usually ~/.kde4. The obvious problem with that is that KDE 4 won't pick up your existing KDE 3 settings, so it's inadequate for migrating to KDE 4. It also means KDE 4 users will have to manually rename ~/.kde4 to ~/.kde when they upgrade to a later version which finally defaults to KDE 4, otherwise they'll lose all their settings. This really sucks as a user experience, and it is one of the reasons I don't like that setup. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White azapple.com> writes: > People who do software development wouldn't care whether it's KDE 3.5 or > KDE 4 Actually they'll want KDE 4. Who wants to develop against an obsolete API? Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird yosemite.net> writes: > I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. > They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. I can't promise anything at this time (also because upstream hasn't decided on a schedule for 4.2 yet, at least not that I know of), but KDE 4.2 could hit Fedora as soon as February 2009, as a Fedora 10 (maybe also Fedora 9) update. All this is not decided yet (and again, it also depends on upstream), but it is no way a sure thing that 4.2 will only hit in May. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White wrote: It was started again virtually from scratch (KDE-4) from where do you find this information? -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Timothy Murphy wrote: when ever i go to shut down kde, i play a guessing game with it. should i bother with 'log out' or go ahead and press , which, by the way, fails almost as often as 'log out'. Seems to me you ought to clarify your problem, eg what do you mean by "log out"? seems to me, you should read what is written and if you do not understand, then reread it. 'shut down kde', 'log out', 'press ', all in same paragraph. what? you think this relates to 'log off system'? not even. Do you mean you type these words, 'type these words'? not either. or do you press a button in the panel? button in 'lock | log out' applet in desktop panel, yes. desktop is set up for mouse button actions of left for 'application menu', right for 'desktop menu' where at bottom of each is selection of 'log out'. does this clarify what is meant by 'log out'? Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? if it will not 'shutdown', then i kill it. (I could be wrong as I never use it.) this i believe. I'm pretty sure that if you said what machine you are using, and expressed your problem clearly, it would be solved very shortly. what 'machine'? i am talking about a computer. as i said, maybe you should reread and it might become more clearly to you. please excuse me for being satirical, but your questions just happened to hit me in a wrong way. no, i do not believe you meant to come across wrong, it just hit me that way. -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 14:36 -0400, David Boles wrote: >> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: >> > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 02:40 +0930, Tim wrote: >> > >> > Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the >> > various mixer controls even control. >> >> >> It is a choice. If you, either of you, do not like it you should disable it. >> But I seriously doubt that Pulseaudio will 'just go away' because you don't >> like it. ;-) > > You misunderstand me. It's not that I dislike PA, I dislike *all* the > sound systems on Linux Well the main idea behind PA is to eradicate that problem since it will be a super set -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 14:36 -0400, David Boles wrote: Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 02:40 +0930, Tim wrote: Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the various mixer controls even control. It is a choice. If you, either of you, do not like it you should disable it. But I seriously doubt that Pulseaudio will 'just go away' because you don't like it. ;-) You misunderstand me. It's not that I dislike PA, I dislike *all* the sound systems on Linux because I don't understand them and have never seen a clear explanation of how they all fit together and what they do. It seems to me (and it isn't the first time I've made the point) that there's a gaping hole where a unified model should be. Maybe I'm just stupid but I seem to see a lot of different models with overlapping functionality and no clear relation between them. And every time someone comes up with a new architecture (like PA) we have N+1 systems where previously we had N. In fact the mixer issue isn't even related to PA since I use Kmix. I think that we are misunderstanding each other. :-) What Is PulseAudio? PulseAudio is a sound server for POSIX and Win32 systems. A sound server is basically a proxy for your sound applications. It allows you to do advanced operations on your sound data as it passes between your application and your hardware. Things like transferring the audio to a different machine, changing the sample format or channel count and mixing several sounds into one are easily achieved using a sound server. As for the sound applications? Each is the same thing with a different look and feel. As are, for example, your favorite CD burning program and mine which is different looking. All the GUI's do is make the command line entries for you with 'point an click' stuff. The problem with sound being, IMO, that some work 'here' and don't 'work there'. And with all of that you have the 'buy me' codecs too. Which, it appears, is the main cause of the 'sound stopped/does not' work problems. I can feel the pain that some have with their installs. But (knock wood) I have no had a Linux related problem since I trashed the ZIP Drive many years ago. I get bumps and hiccups from time to time but nothing like I read here. Which makes me wonder... hardware or PEBCAK? ;-) -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 14:36 -0400, David Boles wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 02:40 +0930, Tim wrote: > > > > Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the > > various mixer controls even control. > > > It is a choice. If you, either of you, do not like it you should disable it. > But I seriously doubt that Pulseaudio will 'just go away' because you don't > like it. ;-) You misunderstand me. It's not that I dislike PA, I dislike *all* the sound systems on Linux because I don't understand them and have never seen a clear explanation of how they all fit together and what they do. It seems to me (and it isn't the first time I've made the point) that there's a gaping hole where a unified model should be. Maybe I'm just stupid but I seem to see a lot of different models with overlapping functionality and no clear relation between them. And every time someone comes up with a new architecture (like PA) we have N+1 systems where previously we had N. In fact the mixer issue isn't even related to PA since I use Kmix. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 02:40 +0930, Tim wrote: Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the various mixer controls even control. It is a choice. If you, either of you, do not like it you should disable it. But I seriously doubt that Pulseaudio will 'just go away' because you don't like it. ;-) -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 13:50 -0300, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > Em Sábado 21 Junho 2008, Patrick O'Callaghan escreveu: > > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 16:15 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > > Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? > > > (I could be wrong as I never use it.) > > > > Ctrl-Alt-Backspace kills the X server. It's not clear to me whether > > there is any practical difference between doing that and hitting a > > "log out" button. Presumably the latter could give the various apps > > time to clean up, but I'm not sure if it actually does this. > > Logging out closes only the desktop environment you were using and the > applications that were running in it. CTRL+ALT+BS kills X and the > graphical login manager too, so it re-reads the xorg.conf file (if you > have altered it, this is needed), reload video drivers (if you have > updated it, this is needed) and reload the xdm/gdm/kdm configuration, > among other things that are not done if you simply log out. AFAIK the display manager (kdm, gdm, whatever) does *not* die, neither when you log out nor when you kill X. This is easy to verify: just check the PID of kdm or gdm, log out, switch to a virtual console and check the PID again. You'll find that it hasn't changed (I've done this with kdm, I'm assuming gdm is the same). That's because it's the parent process of the X server. This matters because if something like kdelibs changes due to an update I want to be sure of not leaving old versions lying around. The easiest way to to do this is "init 3; init 5" from a virtual console. Also, logging out now also tells the display manager to restart the X server (it didn't used to). Which is why I was wondering if there was in practice a difference between the "log out" button and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 02:40 +0930, Tim wrote: > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 09:35 -0400, David Boles wrote: > > Pulseaudio is supposed to allow you to set the volume level(s) of > > various applications/output devices so that they can be different. > > Music soft. Ta-Ta! loud. As well as others. What is not so functional > > is the applications that are not yet able to mix with pulseaudio. > > To my mind, it goes about this the wrong way. A case in point: You're > listening to your music at a reasonable level, and some annunciator > fires off at full volume. Unfortunately, you can't do anything about > that, as they're so quick to finish that you couldn't get to a volume > control in time. And even if you did manage to reduce the volume while > a long sample played, the next time the annunciator fires off it'll be > at the default full volume, again. > > The things that make sounds, should control their own volumes, > themselves. A volume control in your music player, not some external > controller, should control its playback level, and not affect anything > else. The system annunciators should have their own level in the > appropriate control panel for the sounds (where you set which sounds > will be heard, for which events, should also set the level). Other > applications should have their own volume levels. The only sensible > external control should be a master volume, one that you can crank up > and down to make everything loud or quiet, in proportion to your > listening environment, as well as be able to quickly mute everything > when the phone rings. > > The whole idea of a "mixer panel" approach is alien to the average > person who's never used a collection of equipment hooked up to a mixer. > And it's made all the more worse by bad setups of the mixer (badly > labelled controls, most controls needing to be run at maximum, etc.). > About the only sensible place for using a mixer on the computer is for > making recordings. Totally agree with this. It's hard enough even figuring out what the various mixer controls even control. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 13:50 -0300, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > CTRL+ALT+BS kills X and the graphical login manager too, so it > re-reads the xorg.conf file (if you have altered it, this is needed), > reload video drivers (if you have updated it, this is needed) and > reload the xdm/gdm/kdm configuration, among other things that are not > done if you simply log out. Quite some time ago how X was managed was changed so that when you logged out, it did actually "restart". Has that changed again? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 09:35 -0400, David Boles wrote: > Pulseaudio is supposed to allow you to set the volume level(s) of > various applications/output devices so that they can be different. > Music soft. Ta-Ta! loud. As well as others. What is not so functional > is the applications that are not yet able to mix with pulseaudio. To my mind, it goes about this the wrong way. A case in point: You're listening to your music at a reasonable level, and some annunciator fires off at full volume. Unfortunately, you can't do anything about that, as they're so quick to finish that you couldn't get to a volume control in time. And even if you did manage to reduce the volume while a long sample played, the next time the annunciator fires off it'll be at the default full volume, again. The things that make sounds, should control their own volumes, themselves. A volume control in your music player, not some external controller, should control its playback level, and not affect anything else. The system annunciators should have their own level in the appropriate control panel for the sounds (where you set which sounds will be heard, for which events, should also set the level). Other applications should have their own volume levels. The only sensible external control should be a master volume, one that you can crank up and down to make everything loud or quiet, in proportion to your listening environment, as well as be able to quickly mute everything when the phone rings. The whole idea of a "mixer panel" approach is alien to the average person who's never used a collection of equipment hooked up to a mixer. And it's made all the more worse by bad setups of the mixer (badly labelled controls, most controls needing to be run at maximum, etc.). About the only sensible place for using a mixer on the computer is for making recordings. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 10:41 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > Arthur - you wrote "They'll wait till Fedora users and other similar > early adopters have helped iron out the bugs. Kinda like Pulse Audio, > NetworkManager, etc". Yes, someone has to be an early adopter for > bugs to be ironed out. By that logic, let's get rid of the testing repos, and foist all the half baked programs onto all the users, so the bugs are ironed out faster. The end result of a badly working distro, is that it loses a mass following, and becomes a niche system. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:41 AM, Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Saturday 21 June 2008 00:47:24 Mike Bird wrote: >> The other distros are supporting both KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.x for one to >> three years. This allows people to migrate once KDE 4.x meets their >> needs. > > As I mentioned elsewhere, I have one system that has both 3.5 and 4.0 running. > Compromises are necessary for this, and it results in a system considerably > less stable than the Fedora version. IMO, Fedora's decision was the right > one. There was plenty of warning that it may not suit all, and staying with > F8 was always a choice. F7 was also a choice... just saying. > Arthur - you wrote "They'll wait till Fedora users and other similar early > adopters have helped iron out the bugs. Kinda like Pulse Audio, > NetworkManager, etc". Yes, someone has to be an early adopter for bugs to be Yup, and I applaud Fedora for that. That is one of Fedora's benefits to the linux community -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Em Sábado 21 Junho 2008, Patrick O'Callaghan escreveu: > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 16:15 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? > > (I could be wrong as I never use it.) > > Ctrl-Alt-Backspace kills the X server. It's not clear to me whether > there is any practical difference between doing that and hitting a > "log out" button. Presumably the latter could give the various apps > time to clean up, but I'm not sure if it actually does this. Logging out closes only the desktop environment you were using and the applications that were running in it. CTRL+ALT+BS kills X and the graphical login manager too, so it re-reads the xorg.conf file (if you have altered it, this is needed), reload video drivers (if you have updated it, this is needed) and reload the xdm/gdm/kdm configuration, among other things that are not done if you simply log out. Also, of course and as you've said yourself, if you kill X then the running applications do not have the chance to quit gracefully and save their data. []'s Marcelo -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 16:15 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? > (I could be wrong as I never use it.) Ctrl-Alt-Backspace kills the X server. It's not clear to me whether there is any practical difference between doing that and hitting a "log out" button. Presumably the latter could give the various apps time to clean up, but I'm not sure if it actually does this. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 15:57 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Anne Wilson wrote: > > > LDAP does feel a bit daunting. I feel that it should be possible to learn > > and activate one bit of its potential at a time, but after reading a > > couple of > > web pages about it I gave up. Does the book you mention lead you in > > reasonably slowly? I've rather a lot on my plate for the forseeable > > future, so don't want to have to swallow huge amounts of medicine at once > > My view of LDAP is slightly jaundiced. > I've come to the conclusion that it is a very bad way > of creating a system-wide address book, > but unfortunately the only way that actually works. > > (As Winston Churchill said of democracy, > it is a terrible system but better than all the others > that have been tried from time to time.) > > I have the Gerald Carter book (actually I borrowed it) > and I would give it 7/10, or alpha minus. > I was amazed when looking around how bad all the online introductions > on OpenLDAP that I found were. > (If I have to read another history of X509 I may jump out of the window.) > Certainly Carter's book is far better than any of these. > > It still seems to me that there ought to be a simple 10-page exposition > on OpenLDAP, but if there is I haven't found it. here's the thing...LDAP is an erector set that was originally created (X509) to do something entirely different than what most people use it for today. The OpenLDAP developers are only concerned with the mechanics of OpenLDAP software and not interested in providing tutorials about LDAP itself. Their audience is typically the very skilled system administrator who is capable of compiling software (high level compile including linking), and already knowledgeable about things like sasl, kerberos and authentication mechanisms. For the record, OpenLDAP administrator's guide is here... http://www.openldap.org/doc/admin24/ # version 2.4.x http://www.openldap.org/doc/admin23/ # version 2.3.x The various online instructions aren't 'bad', but rather confusing to someone that doesn't understand LDAP because one persons tutorial will vary from another and there really is no set way to do anything on LDAP...it is after all an erector set. Fedora Directory Server is a bit simpler for newbies in that out of the box, it has pre-conceived notions of users and groups, certificates, ACL's/ACI's and has some web/gui based consoles to get you started but still, it doesn't supplant knowledge and some of the twists like importing ldap.schema's can be daunting. There cannot be a simple 10-page exposition on OpenLDAP because that simple exposition pre-supposes what you intend to do with your erector set. In fact, the above mentioned OpenLDAP administrator's guide is over 20 pages and it only covers how to 'use' the software but does not cover any specific projects to build with your erector set. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 16:26 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > David Boles wrote: > > > Chill out guy. All you are hearing is the sour grapes. The 'happiest' > > never post. Except for Anne. > > Maybe happy pills should be circulated with Linux distributions ... > > Seriously, I think Anne is too kind. > I am genuinely puzzled by the minor problems that came with KDE-4. > It is as though the KDE-4 team was completely independent of the KDE-3 crew, > and started again from scratch. > > However, the problems in my view are or were minor, > and certainly not worth writing to the Pope about. > > I'd just ask the KDE and Fedora developers to bear in mind > that simplicity is a virtue, and that a little time should be spent > examining if it is possible to simplify the distribution, > as eg Torvalds seems to me to do rather will with the kernel. It was started again virtually from scratch (KDE-4) It's obvious that they have some pretty high ambitions for KDE that are well beyond what is already known to work (KDE-3) Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Timothy Murphy wrote: David Boles wrote: Chill out guy. All you are hearing is the sour grapes. The 'happiest' never post. Except for Anne. Maybe happy pills should be circulated with Linux distributions ... Seriously, I think Anne is too kind. I am genuinely puzzled by the minor problems that came with KDE-4. It is as though the KDE-4 team was completely independent of the KDE-3 crew, and started again from scratch. However, the problems in my view are or were minor, and certainly not worth writing to the Pope about. I'd just ask the KDE and Fedora developers to bear in mind that simplicity is a virtue, and that a little time should be spent examining if it is possible to simplify the distribution, as eg Torvalds seems to me to do rather will with the kernel. Bear this in mind to then. KDE developers are doing the actual developing of KDE 4.x and Fedora's KDE team is doing the packaging. KDE has been talking about these major changes for a long time. And I can only imagine the screaming and complaints if Fedora had *not* provided KDE 4.0. ;-) -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
David Boles wrote: > Chill out guy. All you are hearing is the sour grapes. The 'happiest' > never post. Except for Anne. Maybe happy pills should be circulated with Linux distributions ... Seriously, I think Anne is too kind. I am genuinely puzzled by the minor problems that came with KDE-4. It is as though the KDE-4 team was completely independent of the KDE-3 crew, and started again from scratch. However, the problems in my view are or were minor, and certainly not worth writing to the Pope about. I'd just ask the KDE and Fedora developers to bear in mind that simplicity is a virtue, and that a little time should be spent examining if it is possible to simplify the distribution, as eg Torvalds seems to me to do rather will with the kernel. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
g wrote: > i am using f8 and from what i have been thru and still going thru, > i must say that f8 is not a whole lot better than what i am reading > that f9 is like. ... > when ever i go to shut down kde, i play a guessing game with it. should > i bother with 'log out' or go ahead and press , which, > by the way, fails almost as often as 'log out'. Seems to me you ought to clarify your problem, eg what do you mean by "log out"? Do you mean you type these words, or do you press a button in the panel? Isn't ctrl-alt-backspace meant to kill X, rather than shutdown? (I could be wrong as I never use it.) I'm pretty sure that if you said what machine you are using, and expressed your problem clearly, it would be solved very shortly. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: > The difference, Kevin, is that Kubuntu shipped KDE 4.x a month before > Fedora and will support KDE 3.5 nine months after Fedora ends support. > > Kubuntu is providing people with three times the transition period that > Fedora is offering. Debian will probably go even further. I don't really understand this. It seems to me quite difficult to run KDE-3 and KDE-4 on the same machine. How exactly do you do it? Do you share the same /home partition between the two? Actually, I do this, but I have come to the conclusion that it was unwise. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Anne Wilson wrote: > LDAP does feel a bit daunting. I feel that it should be possible to learn > and activate one bit of its potential at a time, but after reading a > couple of > web pages about it I gave up. Does the book you mention lead you in > reasonably slowly? I've rather a lot on my plate for the forseeable > future, so don't want to have to swallow huge amounts of medicine at once My view of LDAP is slightly jaundiced. I've come to the conclusion that it is a very bad way of creating a system-wide address book, but unfortunately the only way that actually works. (As Winston Churchill said of democracy, it is a terrible system but better than all the others that have been tried from time to time.) I have the Gerald Carter book (actually I borrowed it) and I would give it 7/10, or alpha minus. I was amazed when looking around how bad all the online introductions on OpenLDAP that I found were. (If I have to read another history of X509 I may jump out of the window.) Certainly Carter's book is far better than any of these. It still seems to me that there ought to be a simple 10-page exposition on OpenLDAP, but if there is I haven't found it. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Timothy Murphy wrote: Mike Bird wrote: Please see the subject of this thread. Those of us who are switching are doing so because the answer to the question was negative. We didn't randomly upgrade our production systems. We tested F9 and determined that KDE 4.x is not ready for prime time. I don't understand why you keep writing to us to tell us you have left (or are about to leave?) Fedora. I stopped running Kubuntu on one machine some time ago - because I found it too complicated to run several distros - but it never occurred to me to write to the Kubuntu mailing list to tell them I was leaving ... I wondered if anyone else was thinking this too. ;-) -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Timothy Murphy wrote: Arthur Pemberton wrote: They'll wait till Fedora users and other similar early adopters have helped iron out the bugs. Kinda like Pulse Audio, NetworkManager, etc I fear that will be a very long wait ... Actually, NM has been getting slowly but steadily better on my machines. It would have been very foolish to have waited. (But I still don't like NM's "works like magic" approach.) Sound remains a complete mystery to me. As far as I can make out, pulseaudio is one of several "developments" that were intended to make the sound setup simpler, but which in fact have added another layer of obfuscation to an already confused mess. Too many cooks spoil the broth? Pulseaudio is supposed to allow you to set the volume level(s) of various applications/output devices so that they can be different. Music soft. Ta-Ta! loud. As well as others. What is not so functional is the applications that are not yet able to mix with pulseaudio. I can;t speak about NM. I don't need or use it. I know some that do use it and they do not have problems. I read of problems here though. Which, to me, sounds like hardware support problems. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: > Please see the subject of this thread. Those of us who are switching > are doing so because the answer to the question was negative. We didn't > randomly upgrade our production systems. We tested F9 and determined > that KDE 4.x is not ready for prime time. I don't understand why you keep writing to us to tell us you have left (or are about to leave?) Fedora. I stopped running Kubuntu on one machine some time ago - because I found it too complicated to run several distros - but it never occurred to me to write to the Kubuntu mailing list to tell them I was leaving ... -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Arthur Pemberton wrote: > They'll wait till Fedora users and other similar early adopters have > helped iron out the bugs. Kinda like Pulse Audio, NetworkManager, etc I fear that will be a very long wait ... Actually, NM has been getting slowly but steadily better on my machines. It would have been very foolish to have waited. (But I still don't like NM's "works like magic" approach.) Sound remains a complete mystery to me. As far as I can make out, pulseaudio is one of several "developments" that were intended to make the sound setup simpler, but which in fact have added another layer of obfuscation to an already confused mess. Too many cooks spoil the broth? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Saturday 21 June 2008 13:23:59 Craig White wrote: > As Timothy Murphy will tell you, I am pretty adamant that the Internet > provides too many confusing LDAP walk-throughs that don't correlate with > each other and will typically lead to frustration and the most simple > way to learn LDAP is Gerald Carter's book titled 'LDAP System > Administration'. > > I don't know how many family 'users' you are dealing with but if it's > more than 5, it may be worthwhile to learn LDAP. These are the things I > am doing with LDAP these days... > > Account management - Posix and Samba users/passwords all integrated and > the same - when I create a user, the user can login to either Linux, > mail server, Windows with the same password and it's the same user . > > Group memberships - for access control or for mail distribution lists. > > Autofs mounts - typically for NFS mounts because I use 'login scripts' > for samba (Windows) mounts. > > E-mail aliases - postfix checks LDAP to see if it's a valid address > before accepting and cyrus-imapd figures out which account(s) mail is > delivered to. > > Samba - the passdb > > Address Books (Shared and Personal) - Shared address books that are > available to everyone include the 'accounts' address book which is > created automatically when I add users, one or more general shared > address book(s), and each user gets their own LDAP address book so they > can move from program to program, computer to computer and yet still > have access to their address book. In terms of accounts, there are not so many. My husband and I, regularly, and my daughter occasionally (on XP), when she needs something on my network. She has a samba login. In terms of hardware, though, it's a bit different. There is my IMAP/file server (CentOS), David's Mandriva desktop box, my F9 desktop box, my EeePC, and this laptop with Mandriva and, very occasionally, XP. That's without the occasional guests - other daughter, granddaughter, etc.. LDAP does feel a bit daunting. I feel that it should be possible to learn and activate one bit of its potential at a time, but after reading a couple of web pages about it I gave up. Does the book you mention lead you in reasonably slowly? I've rather a lot on my plate for the forseeable future, so don't want to have to swallow huge amounts of medicine at once :-) Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 13:04 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:58:11 Craig White wrote: > > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 12:34 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > > > On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:16:20 Craig White wrote: > > > > > My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my > > > > > nfs shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in > > > > > either dolphin or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor > > > > > inconvenience. The same goes for most of the other things that are > > > > > 'missing'. Work-arounds exist, while work goes on to fix the > > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > FWIW...I found that this behavior stopped when I went to autofs > > > > mounting anyway so it's no loss. > > > > > > ?? A change to fstab, I presume? Example of current line is > > > > > > 192.168.0.40:/home /mnt/servername_home nfs nosuid,exec,rw,bg,soft,intr 0 > > > 0 > > > > > > Do you mean change 'nfs' to 'autofs'? > > > > > > I don't use fstab to do nfs mounts anymore...that's so yesterday ;-) > > > Hey, after years of doing smb mounts I've only just learned how to do nfs > mounts :-) autofs does ease some of the ugly aspects of hard nfs mounts > > > but the answer is no...there are no nfs mounts in fstab needed when you > > use autofs > > > > http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Automount.html > > > > this is a good general explanation... > > http://tldp.org/linuxfocus/English/January2001/article141.shtml > > > OK - More reading to do. those are short, general info explanations > > > There are a lot of benefits to doing it this way...they are soft mounts > > and not hard mounts. I can change the mounts simply by changing LDAP and > > not having to change each computer (LDAP is not necessary for autofs but > > is certainly a big plus). > > > LDAP is another whole new ball game. I keep thinking that I should read up > on > that, too, as is certainly would be helpful. > > Thanks for the links, Craig. As Timothy Murphy will tell you, I am pretty adamant that the Internet provides too many confusing LDAP walk-throughs that don't correlate with each other and will typically lead to frustration and the most simple way to learn LDAP is Gerald Carter's book titled 'LDAP System Administration'. I don't know how many family 'users' you are dealing with but if it's more than 5, it may be worthwhile to learn LDAP. These are the things I am doing with LDAP these days... Account management - Posix and Samba users/passwords all integrated and the same - when I create a user, the user can login to either Linux, mail server, Windows with the same password and it's the same user . Group memberships - for access control or for mail distribution lists. Autofs mounts - typically for NFS mounts because I use 'login scripts' for samba (Windows) mounts. E-mail aliases - postfix checks LDAP to see if it's a valid address before accepting and cyrus-imapd figures out which account(s) mail is delivered to. Samba - the passdb Address Books (Shared and Personal) - Shared address books that are available to everyone include the 'accounts' address book which is created automatically when I add users, one or more general shared address book(s), and each user gets their own LDAP address book so they can move from program to program, computer to computer and yet still have access to their address book. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:58:11 Craig White wrote: > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 12:34 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > > On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:16:20 Craig White wrote: > > > > My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my > > > > nfs shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in > > > > either dolphin or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor > > > > inconvenience. The same goes for most of the other things that are > > > > 'missing'. Work-arounds exist, while work goes on to fix the > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > > FWIW...I found that this behavior stopped when I went to autofs > > > mounting anyway so it's no loss. > > > > ?? A change to fstab, I presume? Example of current line is > > > > 192.168.0.40:/home /mnt/servername_home nfs nosuid,exec,rw,bg,soft,intr 0 > > 0 > > > > Do you mean change 'nfs' to 'autofs'? > > > I don't use fstab to do nfs mounts anymore...that's so yesterday ;-) > Hey, after years of doing smb mounts I've only just learned how to do nfs mounts :-) > but the answer is no...there are no nfs mounts in fstab needed when you > use autofs > > http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Automount.html > > this is a good general explanation... > http://tldp.org/linuxfocus/English/January2001/article141.shtml > OK - More reading to do. > There are a lot of benefits to doing it this way...they are soft mounts > and not hard mounts. I can change the mounts simply by changing LDAP and > not having to change each computer (LDAP is not necessary for autofs but > is certainly a big plus). > LDAP is another whole new ball game. I keep thinking that I should read up on that, too, as is certainly would be helpful. Thanks for the links, Craig. Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 12:34 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:16:20 Craig White wrote: > > > My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my nfs > > > shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in either > > > dolphin or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor inconvenience. > > > The same goes for most of the other things that are 'missing'. > > > Work-arounds exist, while work goes on to fix the situation. > > > > > > FWIW...I found that this behavior stopped when I went to autofs mounting > > anyway so it's no loss. > > ?? A change to fstab, I presume? Example of current line is > > 192.168.0.40:/home /mnt/servername_home nfs nosuid,exec,rw,bg,soft,intr 0 0 > > Do you mean change 'nfs' to 'autofs'? I don't use fstab to do nfs mounts anymore...that's so yesterday ;-) but the answer is no...there are no nfs mounts in fstab needed when you use autofs http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Automount.html this is a good general explanation... http://tldp.org/linuxfocus/English/January2001/article141.shtml There are a lot of benefits to doing it this way...they are soft mounts and not hard mounts. I can change the mounts simply by changing LDAP and not having to change each computer (LDAP is not necessary for autofs but is certainly a big plus). Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Saturday 21 June 2008 12:16:20 Craig White wrote: > > My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my nfs > > shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in either > > dolphin or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor inconvenience. > > The same goes for most of the other things that are 'missing'. > > Work-arounds exist, while work goes on to fix the situation. > > > FWIW...I found that this behavior stopped when I went to autofs mounting > anyway so it's no loss. ?? A change to fstab, I presume? Example of current line is 192.168.0.40:/home /mnt/servername_home nfs nosuid,exec,rw,bg,soft,intr 0 0 Do you mean change 'nfs' to 'autofs'? Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 10:48 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Friday 20 June 2008 23:53:47 Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > > I saw no one stating nothing like that. The blame some people have put > > on Fedora was for shipping an incomplete KDE4 when there was the option > > to ship the fully functional KDE 3.5.9. These people said that Fedora > > should have waited for KDE4 to become more stable/functional before > > opting to include it in Fedora. > > That's all, and even that is arguable. > > Most of the really bad things about KDE4 were fixed about a week after > release > of F9. I consider that pretty good. OK, the desktop can't, at present, be > used in just the same way as we have done before, but everything is > available, so is it really such a big deal? We have been told that even that > is fixed in 4.1, which is only a few weeks away. > > My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my nfs > shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in either dolphin > or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor inconvenience. The same > goes for most of the other things that are 'missing'. Work-arounds exist, > while work goes on to fix the situation. FWIW...I found that this behavior stopped when I went to autofs mounting anyway so it's no loss. Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Friday 20 June 2008 23:53:47 Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > I saw no one stating nothing like that. The blame some people have put > on Fedora was for shipping an incomplete KDE4 when there was the option > to ship the fully functional KDE 3.5.9. These people said that Fedora > should have waited for KDE4 to become more stable/functional before > opting to include it in Fedora. > That's all, and even that is arguable. Most of the really bad things about KDE4 were fixed about a week after release of F9. I consider that pretty good. OK, the desktop can't, at present, be used in just the same way as we have done before, but everything is available, so is it really such a big deal? We have been told that even that is fixed in 4.1, which is only a few weeks away. My first reaction to finding that I didn't have desktop icons for my nfs shares was a feeling of loss, yet I can open those shares in either dolphin or konqueror, so it's really no more than a minor inconvenience. The same goes for most of the other things that are 'missing'. Work-arounds exist, while work goes on to fix the situation. Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Saturday 21 June 2008 00:47:24 Mike Bird wrote: > The other distros are supporting both KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.x for one to > three years. This allows people to migrate once KDE 4.x meets their > needs. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have one system that has both 3.5 and 4.0 running. Compromises are necessary for this, and it results in a system considerably less stable than the Fedora version. IMO, Fedora's decision was the right one. There was plenty of warning that it may not suit all, and staying with F8 was always a choice. Arthur - you wrote "They'll wait till Fedora users and other similar early adopters have helped iron out the bugs. Kinda like Pulse Audio, NetworkManager, etc". Yes, someone has to be an early adopter for bugs to be ironed out. Anne Anne -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Craig White wrote: I have a lot of machines running Fedora 8 / KDE and none experience the issue you are talking about. I suspect there is a problem with your installation because that is not an issue with Fedora 8/KDE. not an issue for you, yet in a couple of past post, i do believe there were comments to similar problems with f8. in 1 box, i have 2 installs of f8 and only difference is with minimal install in that kde locks up and even wedges when it goes to 'crt power down'. many times i have had to use power switch to reboot as reset switch will not work. with fuller install, it is only on an occasion that system will lock up and need a reset switch reboot and seldom i have to power switch it off. both are troublesome when it comes to 'log out'. minimal install will not 'log out' from time to time and will not even work and requires a 'kill' from a vterm. a few times i have not been able to switch to a vterm and had reset or power down. with 2 other boxes with f8, kde will occasionally lock up and wedge with reset or power switch to restart. but no where near like it is on this one. on all 3 i have reinstalled several times to clear problem, but to no avail. hardware problem? maybe. but i do not think so because fc6, f8 live installed, f8 fel live installed, mandriva 2k8, knoppix 5, have worked with out problems. a bad dvd burn? not likely as checksum shows burn to be good. As for the notion of you get what you pay for...this is essentially a likely to spend much time on a problem that is in F-8 but not in F-9. i do wish to participate and will when i get to f9. i see no need to bother developers with 'old problems'. they have enough to do with getting f9 working better. my intent is to have a friend with cable internet to burn me a respin of f8 and install it with hopes of getting a better installation. and yes, i have been updating. i do not have all installed as yet, as i am wading thru updates to what i have on system instead of just letting all updates be made. i did not intend to drag this out as far as i have as other post was just to make a comment. and as stated in another post, this thread is kde 3.5 in f10. -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 21:50 -0400, David Boles wrote: > But you do know that you new distro will switch to KDE 4.0 soon too > right? Going by the various reports and comments, those other distros will switch over when KDE 4 is ready for use. The biggest bitch about this, Fedora-wise, would seem to be that Fedora did it too soon. And, I think people are worried that it still won't be ready by the time Fedora stops supporting a prior release that was still using KDE 3. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.6-55.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [ snip ] > The difference, Kevin, is that Kubuntu shipped KDE 4.x a month before > Fedora and will support KDE 3.5 nine months after Fedora ends support. > > Kubuntu is providing people with three times the transition period that > Fedora is offering. Debian will probably go even further. > > To you that may not seem much different. To people who rely on F/LOSS > for office work and software development, that's a major difference. Seriously? So you think those guys didn't know that? You think they wouldn't have liked to do so? It simply was not feasible. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Fri June 20 2008 18:50:45 David Boles wrote: But you do know that you new distro will switch to KDE 4.0 soon too right? Your definition of "soon" must be different than mine: Fedora will support KDE 3.5 until approximately December 2008. Kubuntu will support KDE 3.5 until approximately October 2009. Debian will support KDE 3.5 until maybe 2011 or 2012. I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. That leaves Fedora without support for a prime time KDE for several months. There's no such gap with Debian or Kubuntu. Other distros are also shipping KDE 3.5 alongside KDE 4.x but I haven't analyzed their timetables. Hmm.. I do not use KDE. I'm a GNOME user. So this is really off target for me. By all means do as you wish. Switch or bitch for KDE. But I have seen, on other Fedora lists, all of the efforts being made by the KDE team for 'your' KDE. Helping works much, much better than bitching with community projects. Anyone can bitch. Those that truly care help. Again it is your choice. As I said... I don't use KDE. But I have seen a lot of work by the KDE group. Helping them will do a lot more good than all of these 'me too' complaints. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
On Fri June 20 2008 18:50:45 David Boles wrote: > But you do know that you new distro will switch to KDE 4.0 soon too right? Your definition of "soon" must be different than mine: Fedora will support KDE 3.5 until approximately December 2008. Kubuntu will support KDE 3.5 until approximately October 2009. Debian will support KDE 3.5 until maybe 2011 or 2012. I'm expecting KDE 4.2 or KDE 4.3 to be suitable for prime time. They should arrive in Fedora in May 2009 and November 2009. That leaves Fedora without support for a prime time KDE for several months. There's no such gap with Debian or Kubuntu. Other distros are also shipping KDE 3.5 alongside KDE 4.x but I haven't analyzed their timetables. --Mike Bird -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too ! > To: fedora-list@redhat.com > Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 4:49 PM > On Fri June 20 2008 16:33:27 David Boles wrote: > > This thread has become a whiners contest. Who can > whine the longest or the > > loudest. Or both. > > We surrender David. You win. > > --Mike Bird > > -- Don't surrender yet :). Let's go into Overtime. The scored is tied 0 to 0, the other team scores and are up with about a 1 minute left, then your goalkeeper puts the ball inside the enemy box, and Semih Senturk scores. You are tied again. Never, Never Give UP. We go to Penalty Kicks. KDE Team wins 3 to 1. Awesome game in the Euro Cup 2008. http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/sport/mhgbgbidmhql/ I wish that my team could be like the Turkey national soccer team, in the eyes of defeat they come back and find a way to win. KDE Team be like the Turkey soccer team !!! Sweden vs Russia Tommorrow Spain vs Italy Sunday Wish everyone the best! Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Fri June 20 2008 16:33:27 David Boles wrote: This thread has become a whiners contest. Who can whine the longest or the loudest. Or both. We surrender David. You win. Hi Mike. I was not looking for that. ;-) Linux is choice. You chose what to use, or not to use. You also get to keep the pieces when it breaks. I don't know you age. There was a BBS program named OPUS back before The Internet. A community project. It worked really well but it took a lot of work, by hand no GUI stuff, to get it to work. Their disclaimer was something like 'If you break it you get to keep the pieces'. I feel the same way about Linux. Learn what you are doing and know before you start. Or? "'If you break it you get to keep the pieces'" ;-) Seriously. Look first. It works better that way. Have a good night. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Kevin Kofler wrote: Paul Johnson gmail.com> writes: He is speaking for me. I was a RedHat / Fedora user 10 years, 1 month ago, I became an Ubuntu user. FYI, Kubuntu is dropping KDE 3 support in Intrepid Ibex, which will be released at about the same time as Fedora 10. https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuIntrepidVersion Their setup will be almost exactly as it is now in Fedora 9 (and will be in Fedora 10 too): no more KDE 3 desktop and core KDE 3 modules, only KDE 3 libraries and the KDE 3 versions of (mostly third-party) applications not yet ported to KDE 4. So the distro you're switching to isn't really doing much different from the one you're escaping from, the only difference is that they're doing things one release later, with the intermediary solution of parallel-installable KDE 3 and 4 in Hardy Heron, which we skipped because it would have been a lot of work for something which would probably have been thrown out one or two releases later (in Kubuntu, that solution is only lasting for a single release!). Hey Kevin! ;-) Take a breath. You, and all the KDE team, did IMO a great job. Which I am sure will go on and things will all be flowers soon. Chill out guy. All you are hearing is the sour grapes. The 'happiest' never post. Except for Anne. -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: Any hope of KDE 3.5 in F10? I want it too !
Mike Bird wrote: On Fri June 20 2008 15:09:10 David Boles wrote: Ok. How many of those of you that are disappointed or upset with KDE 4.x did any research *before* you installed/upgraded? How many of you downloaded a KDE Live-CD and actually tried it *before* you installed/upgraded? Please see the subject of this thread. Those of us who are switching are doing so because the answer to the question was negative. We didn't randomly upgrade our production systems. We tested F9 and determined that KDE 4.x is not ready for prime time. On Fri June 20 2008 15:32:54 David Boles wrote: As for switching distros? You don't really believe that the other distros won't go to KDE 4.x.x too do you? ;-) The other distros are supporting both KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.x for one to three years. This allows people to migrate once KDE 4.x meets their needs. FWIW it looks like we'll probably standardize on Debian Lenny, although Kubuntu Hardy is still a possibility. Then by all means you should certainly switch. Linux is choice. But you do know that you new distro will switch to KDE 4.0 soon too right? -- David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
