Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 15:08 +0930, Tim wrote: Tim: Do you *just* mean doing a kernel upgrade or do you mean an upgrade and *using* the new kernel, too? Dave Stevens: yes, both. Last reboot on the old serevr beside me was 148 days ago and three kernel updates that I recall. Interesting! I didn't know CentOS was able to do that, I'd only seen discussions about how that sort of thing might be done in Linux, without a reference to something that actually did it. Is the feature standard, or requires special treatment? I'm getting close to setting up a new box with CentOS for the main server, and wouldn't mind being able to do that. I'm sure a lot of us would like to know. AFAIK CentOS is based on RHEL and I haven't seen any news of the latter being able to do this. I also see nothing about it on the CentOS website, where I would expect such a major feature to be displayed prominently. Note that ksplice supports CentOS. Is that what we're talking about? poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Dave Stevensg...@uniserve.com wrote: On Wednesday 19 August 2009 06:43:35 pm Tim wrote: On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 16:42 -0700, Dave Stevens wrote: and on that point, I've done kernel upgrades to my Centos 5.3 box many times with no reboot. Do you *just* mean doing a kernel upgrade or do you mean an upgrade and *using* the new kernel, too? yes, both. Last reboot on the old serevr beside me was 148 days ago and three kernel updates that I recall. [r...@cserver ~]# uname -a Linux cserver.davedomain 2.6.18-128.1.6.el5 #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 09:19:18 EDT 2009 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux Dave So the kernel you are running was compiled in April (when did you reboot last?). What about the 5 kernels released since Apr? kernel-2.6.18-128.4.1.el5 kernel-2.6.18-128.2.1.el5 kernel-2.6.18-128.1.14.el5 kernel-2.6.18-128.1.16.el5 kernel-2.6.18-128.1.10.el5 -- William Hooper -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wednesday 19 August 2009 06:43:35 pm Tim wrote: On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 16:42 -0700, Dave Stevens wrote: and on that point, I've done kernel upgrades to my Centos 5.3 box many times with no reboot. Do you *just* mean doing a kernel upgrade or do you mean an upgrade and *using* the new kernel, too? yes, both. Last reboot on the old serevr beside me was 148 days ago and three kernel updates that I recall. [r...@cserver ~]# uname -a Linux cserver.davedomain 2.6.18-128.1.6.el5 #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 09:19:18 EDT 2009 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux Dave -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- Canada must refuse to be entangled in any more wars fought to make the world safe for capitalism. -- The Regina Manifesto, 1933 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tom Horsley wrote: Mostly that it is really really hard to do right and you'd probably never get the kind of discipline and testing require from the wild west open source community :-). Maybe it's not all that hopeless. Virtualization progressed in heaps and bounds recently. What can be done is having a simple core kernel doing nothing but managing virtual machines. When it's time to reboot we'll start a new virtual machine, and gradually switch the applications to it (can be done automatically or with user assistance, depending on what they do how they work). Then, after the original VM is not running anything of interest to the user, it's turned off. This adds an advantage of being able to try the new kernel not switching to it if something doesn't work. Of course it can't be that easy in practice, but it's much easier/safer than doing all the updates in place. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:27:42 -0700 Konstantin Svist wrote: When it's time to reboot we'll start a new virtual machine, and gradually switch the applications to it That sort of thing always makes me wonder when the security fiends will teach exec() to always run every program in its own separate virtual machine :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 20:08 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:27:42 -0700 Konstantin Svist wrote: When it's time to reboot we'll start a new virtual machine, and gradually switch the applications to it That sort of thing always makes me wonder when the security fiends will teach exec() to always run every program in its own separate virtual machine :-). That wouldn't make sense in the Linux universe. For example, the Shell constantly uses fork/exec to run new processes, which inherit a lot of context (such as standard I/O) from their parent, i.e. the Shell itself. If they were all VMs it couldn't do this, at least without serious distortion. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:49:46 -0430 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: If they were all VMs it couldn't do this, at least without serious distortion. Yea, but the security fiends never let little things like convenience or useability stand in the way of their quest to turn all computers into blocks of concrete. Besides, all they need are some bind mounts of /proc/pid/fd to inherit file descriptors :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tom Horsley wrote: Besides, all they need are some bind mounts of /proc/pid/fd to inherit file descriptors :-). That does not help with most of the environment - things like environmental variables, current directory, etc. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim: Do you *just* mean doing a kernel upgrade or do you mean an upgrade and *using* the new kernel, too? Dave Stevens: yes, both. Last reboot on the old serevr beside me was 148 days ago and three kernel updates that I recall. Interesting! I didn't know CentOS was able to do that, I'd only seen discussions about how that sort of thing might be done in Linux, without a reference to something that actually did it. Is the feature standard, or requires special treatment? I'm getting close to setting up a new box with CentOS for the main server, and wouldn't mind being able to do that. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:13:49 -0400 William Case wrote: What are the arguments against this kind of thing? Mostly that it is really really hard to do right and you'd probably never get the kind of discipline and testing require from the wild west open source community :-). There are systems where it is required that live kernels be patchable with no downtime (things like space stations and nuclear reactor controllers), but it is fantastically complex to make work. There are even things like kexec now that still look like a reboot but don't go all the way down and back up. All you have to do is figure out how to merge the kexec technology with the virtualization live migration technology and migrate to a newly kexeced kernel on the same machine :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: Mostly that it is really really hard to do right and you'd probably never get the kind of discipline and testing require from the wild west open source community :-). Actually, this has already been done with Ksplice (http://www.ksplice.com). It claims to run with Ubuntu, RHEL, CentOS, Parallels, Debian, and SuSE. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 10:35 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: There are systems where it is required that live kernels be patchable with no downtime (things like space stations and nuclear reactor controllers), but it is fantastically complex to make work. I'd imagine that some of /those/ places would run dual computers in control, and one would automatically fallover to the other. You'd need that sort of redundancy so that you could perform repairs. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim wrote: On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 10:35 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: There are systems where it is required that live kernels be patchable with no downtime (things like space stations and nuclear reactor controllers), but it is fantastically complex to make work. I'd imagine that some of /those/ places would run dual computers in control, and one would automatically fallover to the other. You'd need that sort of redundancy so that you could perform repairs. I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., they not only have backup computers, but they have backup control rooms for reactors. (In case something happens to the main one, or its control links.) They even have duplicate control runs that take different routes. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim: I'd imagine that some of /those/ places would run dual computers in control, and one would automatically fallover to the other. You'd need that sort of redundancy so that you could perform repairs. Mikkel L. Ellertson: I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., they not only have backup computers, but they have backup control rooms for reactors. (In case something happens to the main one, or its control links.) They even have duplicate control runs that take different routes. You'd hope they all worked that way... I've only been inside conventional power stations, one coal/gas fired station in Australia, and another in Britain (that I can't remember how it was fueled). They were certainly memorable occasions. I've never been in any other places that literally hummed like they did. The noise in the air, the building vibrating, you could even feel the outside ground humming below your feet. There's a rumble that permeates everything, even the extremely sound-isolated control rooms. Though the one thing that sticks most in my mind, is that the engineering behind them is just awesome. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim wrote: Tim: I'd imagine that some of /those/ places would run dual computers in control, and one would automatically fallover to the other. You'd need that sort of redundancy so that you could perform repairs. Mikkel L. Ellertson: I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., they not only have backup computers, but they have backup control rooms for reactors. (In case something happens to the main one, or its control links.) They even have duplicate control runs that take different routes. You'd hope they all worked that way... I've only been inside conventional power stations, one coal/gas fired station in Australia, and another in Britain (that I can't remember how it was fueled). They were certainly memorable occasions. I've never been in any other places that literally hummed like they did. The noise in the air, the building vibrating, you could even feel the outside ground humming below your feet. There's a rumble that permeates everything, even the extremely sound-isolated control rooms. Though the one thing that sticks most in my mind, is that the engineering behind them is just awesome. The generators at Niagara Falls, Ontario are quite impressive. The first plant was designed by Nikola Tesla and was very famous as it was The first great victory of Tesla's Alternating Current Electricity over Thomas Edison's Direct Current. Being near them is almost frightening just from the sheer size of the machinery and noise of 1200 cubic meters (over 42,000 cubic feet) per second of water driving it all. As this is providing 1/4 of all power used in the Province of Ontario and New York State, backup systems for everything are integral to the design. I hope they don't use Windows :) -- Paul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:17:54 -0700 Paul wrote: I hope they don't use Windows :) The older it is, the more likely it is to use some custom system no longer made, with an OS no longer supported, and no spare parts available. I don't know if that is worse than windows or not :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 11:17 -0700, Paul wrote: Being near them is almost frightening just from the sheer size of the machinery and noise of 1200 cubic meters (over 42,000 cubic feet) per second of water driving it all. There is something somewhat unnerving about standing next to huge generators. Whether it's an awareness of the power being generated, or just the sheer force of what's going on inside the casing you're right next to, I couldn't say. But you sure get the feeling that you should keep your distance and don't touch. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 14:30 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: The older it is, the more likely it is to use some custom system no longer made, with an OS no longer supported, and no spare parts available. I don't know if that is worse than windows or not :-). Probably some real computer system, or not even computerised (old-school hardware controlled, but maybe computer monitoring). -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim wrote: On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 11:17 -0700, Paul wrote: Being near them is almost frightening just from the sheer size of the machinery and noise of 1200 cubic meters (over 42,000 cubic feet) per second of water driving it all. There is something somewhat unnerving about standing next to huge generators. Whether it's an awareness of the power being generated, or just the sheer force of what's going on inside the casing you're right next to, I couldn't say. But you sure get the feeling that you should keep your distance and don't touch. You know it's not likely to suddenly shred itself (and you, like a bug in a high speed turbine - oh wait, it IS a high speed turbine), but you also know that it _could_. It's that sense of imminent danger, like peering down at the water between the dock you are standing on and the 35,000 ton battleship moored mere feet away from you, knowing how easily you could become nothing but a stain on the weathered wood. Cheers :) -- Paul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
Tim wrote: There is something somewhat unnerving about standing next to huge generators. Whether it's an awareness of the power being generated, or just the sheer force of what's going on inside the casing you're right next to, I couldn't say. But you sure get the feeling that you should keep your distance and don't touch. like maybe because you know that it could 'crisp your critters'? -- peace out. tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wednesday 19 August 2009 07:43:15 am Dave Ihnat wrote: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: Mostly that it is really really hard to do right and you'd probably never get the kind of discipline and testing require from the wild west open source community :-). Actually, this has already been done with Ksplice (http://www.ksplice.com). It claims to run with Ubuntu, RHEL, CentOS, Parallels, Debian, and SuSE. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com and on that point, I've done kernel upgrades to my Centos 5.3 box many times with no reboot. Dave -- Canada must refuse to be entangled in any more wars fought to make the world safe for capitalism. -- The Regina Manifesto, 1933 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Discussion -- perhaps a trollette -- re: upgrades !
On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 16:42 -0700, Dave Stevens wrote: and on that point, I've done kernel upgrades to my Centos 5.3 box many times with no reboot. Do you *just* mean doing a kernel upgrade or do you mean an upgrade and *using* the new kernel, too? -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
