Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 08:03 -0700, scm in seattle wrote: Surely you can, in some manner... as I replied much earlier, I had by mistake enabled the Rawhide development repository. The scary thing is that the normal/typical update manager found these packages and proceeded to 'upgrade' my system. In effect I went from F8 to F10 in a blink of 500mb... and of course it doesn't work. So yes my title is incorrect, the horror is not. Timothy Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: scm in seattle wrote: No I did not read the release notes because... I was NOT intending to upgrade to F9! I did accept the updates that the update notifier prompted for me to accept. Surely you cannot upgrade to Fedora-9 by mistake? If in fact you have not upgraded to Fedora-9 Please don't top-post. I can't make sense of this message with the reply in front of the question, nor can anyone else googling to get this message. :) Thanks, Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net ---down4now too -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 10:09 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: Andrew Kelly akelly at corisweb.org writes: Even Sidux won't yet touch KDE4, and that's right out there on the scary edge and KDE-centric to boot. One must learn to read the omens. Sidux is based on Debian unstable (sid). Hence the name, yes. Debian is a very conservative distribution and therefore only has KDE 4 in experimental at the moment, not unstable. That's why Sidux doesn't carry it yet. Sid is nasty enough at times; I completely respect an experimental flagging. I don't like to tinker much, except with my own coding, so I'm happier with yesterday's packages as opposed to today's, if I'm gaining some good stability in the deal. Couple days ago at the Fedora booth at LinuxTag I heard a lot of that in person. But it didn't so much sound like Dude, check it out, this baby is driving KDE4 already! It was a lot more like, Even if you're from KDE-land, you're gonna wanna go with Gnome on this one, Bud. That's not what the people really interested in innovation are saying: http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/kde-at-linuxtag-2008-day-1/ I haven't really been a KDE guy since my Caldera days, and even then preferred fvwm if you can believe that. And no, I'm not really so much interested in innovation as I am in usability and reliability. My computers aren't toys, they are tools. I use them as such and I need to rely on them as such. But hey, that's not me bashing the bleeders, so don't look for any offence cuz there certainly isn't any intended. Back to your article, though.. as I said I was at the Fedora booth, not the KDE booth. What I heard I heard from the Fedora horses mouths, and not the others'. But it was only briefly topic, because then somebody said NM was default in 9 and there was a group bashing for a good stretch of time. Fedora people are fun enough, that's true. More fun than the software is actually, at times, but that's just me getting old. I've hung around the product because I still use an RHCE to make money, and where that still applies I'm satisfied enough (I'll be honest, though, and admit that my production server deployment of choice is still debian), but I'm becoming less patient with where Fedora is going. It just isn't suiting me like it used to and I'm pretty much just keeping my hand in to follow what's in the pipeline. But that's OK. Nobody is married here, I'm not going to go all Les on the distro. It's doing it's thing and still making a lot of people happy and more power to it. If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Kevin Kofler Actually, Kevin, I'm still on 4 and 6, although I do have 8 on a lappy that is currently where one of my cats sleeps. And I've only just in the last couple weeks gotten rid of my last RH7.3 boxes, but that's not really to the point, is it. At any rate, forgive how long-winded and tangential I've become. I didn't mean to open a new door to venting at Fedora and apologise for any accidental incidental offence I may have caused. Andy -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Todd Zullinger wrote: scm in seattle wrote: I have been using F8 for a while now and simply put it was the only distro that supported my laptop (fairly) well. Today I accepted what appeared to be 'typical' updates. The size of the update concerned me slightly (500Mb) but turned to horror when it finished and I rebooted. KDE4 is not in F8 updates. So you didn't perform any sort of typical update. You upgraded your install to F9. And if you did that, you'd have checked the release notes to see that KDE 4 replaces KDE 3 in F9. KDE4 should NEVER be installed over KDE without explicit permission of the user. Ever. Period. It's not. Calm down. If you upgrade to a release that includes KDE 4 by default, you don't get to act shocked that it has -- GASP! -- KDE 4. I finally got around to installing KDE4 on one of my machines. i don't see what all the whining is about, it has a few wrinkles, nothing that can't be worked around in the short term. I am happy to say that, it looks like very soon, I will get to go home again. Thanks to all the folks working on KDE! Max -- On the eighth day he said There shall be no rest for the weary. On the ninth day he farted, and it smelled like sulphur. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 10:09 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Has 8 got proper working sound yet? And without having to rip out pulseaudio to achieve it? I'm still using 7 on these boxes, because what I've read on this tends to suggest that it doesn't. 9 sound even worse. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -ipr 2.6.23.15-80.fc7 i686 i386 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 21:12 +0930, Tim wrote: On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 10:09 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Has 8 got proper working sound yet? And without having to rip out pulseaudio to achieve it? FWIW, I'm running F9 (w/ pulseaudio) and everything seems to be working great. I have banshee running at the same time as a few games and it Just Works (TM). Not sure what issues you were running into. Adobe Flash works fine (if you install libflashsupport). I don't use Skype on this computer, so I don't know if that works. Jonathan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 30 May 2008 13:59:48 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: scm in seattle wrote: I have been using F8 for a while now and simply put it was the only distro that supported my laptop (fairly) well. Today I accepted what appeared to be 'typical' updates. The size of the update concerned me slightly (500Mb) but turned to horror when it finished and I rebooted. I'm slightly baffled by your posting. I assume from the title that you have upgraded in some way to Fedora-9, but you never mention this in your post. See subject line. However, an upgrade from F8 to F9 (or Rawhide) would very likely be larger than just 500 MB. -- Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) - Linux 2.6.23.15-137.fc8 loadavg: 1.03 1.12 1.15 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Tim wrote: On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 10:09 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Has 8 got proper working sound yet? And without having to rip out pulseaudio to achieve it? I'm still using 7 on these boxes, because what I've read on this tends to suggest that it doesn't. 9 sound even worse. Well, it is working just fine for me on the 3 machines I have running F8. (2 desktops and a laptop.) I have to upgrade at least one of them to F9 soon! Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 21:12 +0930, Tim wrote: On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 10:09 +, Kevin Kofler wrote: If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Has 8 got proper working sound yet? And without having to rip out pulseaudio to achieve it? FWIW, I'm running F9 (w/ pulseaudio) and everything seems to be working great. I have banshee running at the same time as a few games and it Just Works (TM). Not sure what issues you were running into. Adobe Flash works fine (if you install libflashsupport). I don't use Skype on this computer, so I don't know if that works. Jonathan -- next part -- I upgraded from Fedora 7 to Fedora 8 via yum upgrade method a week or so after F8 came out and pulseaudio worked perfectly for me. I've been able to use to to mute games (like CrackAttack) while I listen to Rhythmbox. Perhaps something in the yum upgrade method just works better than a fresh install or a disc upgrade? I don't know, but I haven't had any problems with it at all. Nor have I had problems with it on my Ubuntu 8.04 machine either. Perhaps people who are complaining about pulseaudio have a red herring on their hands? Maybe something changed that no longer supported their audio card at the same time that pulseaudio was introduced? Any time you're using anything but OSX on Apple hardware it's going to be tough because you could have a nearly infinite configuration of hardware, so what works for me and what works for Jonathan, above, may not work for you. However, I'm here to tell you that it worked from day one for me. (And I've really enjoyed it!) -- Eric Mesa http://www.ericsbinaryworld.com -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Surely you can, in some manner... as I replied much earlier, I had by mistake enabled the Rawhide development repository. The scary thing is that the normal/typical update manager found these packages and proceeded to 'upgrade' my system. In effect I went from F8 to F10 in a blink of 500mb... and of course it doesn't work. So yes my title is incorrect, the horror is not. Timothy Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: scm in seattle wrote: No I did not read the release notes because... I was NOT intending to upgrade to F9! I did accept the updates that the update notifier prompted for me to accept. Surely you cannot upgrade to Fedora-9 by mistake? If in fact you have not upgraded to Fedora-9 why call your posting F8-F9 horror. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Sam, My script is simpler - insert DVD, restart, follow the prompts So much changed that it would be and exercise in futility to try undo the mess. But thanks for the inspiration! Sam Varshavchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, this is an excellent opportunity for you to learn how to recover a bolloxed upgrade job, yourself. Good luck. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
2008/5/30 scm in seattle [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Surely you can, in some manner... as I replied much earlier, I had by mistake enabled the Rawhide development repository. The scary thing is that the normal/typical update manager found these packages and proceeded to 'upgrade' my system. In effect I went from F8 to F10 in a blink of 500mb... and of course it doesn't work. How is that scary? Isn't the update manager supposed to the most recent packages available to it? -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Arthur Pemberton wrote: 2008/5/30 scm in seattle [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Surely you can, in some manner... as I replied much earlier, I had by mistake enabled the Rawhide development repository. yum can only do what you asked/told it to do. If you enable the rawhide or testing repos and there's newer stuff in there, well... I suppose you could have had a yum plugin like protectbase active and put in things that specify .fc8 only. The scary thing is that the normal/typical update manager found these packages and proceeded to 'upgrade' my system. In effect I went from F8 to F10 in a blink of 500mb... and of course it doesn't work. How is that scary? Isn't the update manager supposed to the most recent packages available to it? One could install the allowdowngrade plugin and downgrade that way. I've never used it, but it may be a way out of the current conundrum. -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - Hosting Consulting, Inc. - -- - Heisenberg _may_ have slept here - -- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Le Vendredi, 30 Mai 2008 10:09:22 + (UTC), Kevin Kofler [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : If you want old stuff, use Fedora 8, not 9. Anytime. I like old stuff that recognizes network printers right off the install. Bravo F8. I hate new stuff that not only does not recognize printers after the install, but won't see them after telling it to do a scan. Proud to run old stuff. And please, keep your new stuff to play with. When it reaches a state that can be acceptable, then let it out. Not before. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 21:31 -0400, lanas wrote: And please, keep your new stuff to play with. When it reaches a state that can be acceptable, then let it out. Not before. You do realize that the way it gets to be acceptable is by people using it? You do realize that that is precisely what Fedora is *for*? If you don't like that, by all means use Centos or RHEL or some other distro, just don't expect a bleeding-edge system to be trouble-free. poc PS I had no trouble configuring my HP network printer. The process was identical to F8 and works the same. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
scm in seattle wrote: I have been using F8 for a while now and simply put it was the only distro that supported my laptop (fairly) well. Today I accepted what appeared to be 'typical' updates. The size of the update concerned me slightly (500Mb) but turned to horror when it finished and I rebooted. My useful KDE3 system has been replaced by KDE4! Not only that but X won't start because the previously installed Theme cannot be found. Oh and a minor issue - my net card no longer works. I'd like to point out that KDE4, by it's own authors is not intended to be for mainstream use: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE4 opensuse != upstream kde KDE 4.0 is only expected to be used by early adopters, not every KDE 3.5 user... True, fedora is all about innovation and early adoption of technologies, and isn't for everyone. KDE4 should NEVER be installed over KDE without explicit permission of the user. Ever. Period. Good, keep using your tried-and-true KDE-3.5 on F8. Was getting KDE4 on F9 a surprise? I thought we had done a pretty good job of shouting from the rooftops. -- rex -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
scm in seattle wrote: I have been using F8 for a while now and simply put it was the only distro that supported my laptop (fairly) well. Today I accepted what appeared to be 'typical' updates. The size of the update concerned me slightly (500Mb) but turned to horror when it finished and I rebooted. My useful KDE3 system has been replaced by KDE4! Oops, wait you say you're still on F8? OK, that *is* a problem. See, there is no kde4 desktop provided for F8. We definitely would *not* do that. My guess is that you inadvertantly enabled rawhide/development repo in your yum config. ?? what does $ yum repolist say? -- Rex -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
scm in seattle wrote: I have been using F8 for a while now and simply put it was the only distro that supported my laptop (fairly) well. Today I accepted what appeared to be 'typical' updates. The size of the update concerned me slightly (500Mb) but turned to horror when it finished and I rebooted. KDE4 is not in F8 updates. So you didn't perform any sort of typical update. You upgraded your install to F9. And if you did that, you'd have checked the release notes to see that KDE 4 replaces KDE 3 in F9. KDE4 should NEVER be installed over KDE without explicit permission of the user. Ever. Period. It's not. Calm down. If you upgrade to a release that includes KDE 4 by default, you don't get to act shocked that it has -- GASP! -- KDE 4. -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp ~~ Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs. -- P.J. O'Rourke pgpGmOOQbA2eA.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
Hi Rex, yum repolist shows: Fedora - Rawhide... My own doing surely while looking for some other package I required. I guess it's time to rebuild the installation, unless you have any other suggestions on how to recover this mess. Thanks for your help. Rex Dieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: scm in seattle wrote: Oops, wait you say you're still on F8? OK, that *is* a problem. See, there is no kde4 desktop provided for F8. We definitely would *not* do that. My guess is that you inadvertantly enabled rawhide/development repo in your yum config. ?? what does $ yum repolist say? -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
2008/5/29 scm in seattle [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No I did not read the release notes because... I was NOT intending to upgrade to F9! I did accept the updates that the update notifier prompted for me to accept. Fedora may have bugs, but it doesn't auto update to a different version. Perhaps I have mistakenly checked rawhide/dev repo... which is the only thing that can possibly make sense. If that is the problem, then there's no easy way back. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
scm in seattle writes: Hi Rex, yum repolist shows: Fedora - Rawhide... My own doing surely while looking for some other package I required. I guess it's time to rebuild the installation, unless you have any other suggestions on how to recover this mess. Thanks for your help. Well, it should be possible to recover, but it is not going to be easy. /var/log/yum.log should have a nice hairball that lists all the packages that got upgraded. You'll need to take that list, grab the most recent versions of these packages from F8 updates, or F8 base, then shove them in with rpm -U --oldpackage. This will work only if two conditions are met: 1) The KDE packages have not been refactored: that is a package being replaced or merged by another package of the same name. If so, you'll need to backtrack and identify the previous name of the corresponding package, and apply the necessary rpm voodoo to force-uninstall the new package, and install the old one as part of the upgrade. 2) That KDE 4 did not obliterate your old KDE 3 configuration settings, and when you go back KDE won't go bonkers because of unrecognized configuration settings. If so, you'll need to trawl through your home directory and nuke all the hidden dot-directories that store KDE configuration. That should reset KDE to its default configuration settings, and you'll need to manually apply restore what you had configured before. I'm sure that this is possible and a reinstall is not necessary, but it won't be easy. Consider it a learning experience. Recovering from a botched upgrade is a valuable skill, that you will eventually have to put to use. On one of my laptops, an upgrade from F8 to F9 crapped about at about a 90% mark with some obnoxious Anaconda traceback. The option to save the traceback for diagnostics was utterly useless. It harassed me for a network host+port, and login/password info, without divulging even a shred of a clue as to what exactly it wanted: an HTTP server address, with authorization information, ssh login parameters, ftp login parameters, or whatever. After giving up an attempt to save some diagnostics for a subsequent Bugzilla entry, I rebooted and restarted the F9 installer. Restarting the upgrade in F9's installer didn't do anything. It did not want to upgrade anything. Rebooting into F9 revealed an utterly barfed system. X couldn't start, and complained about some missing module. A royal mess. Eventually, I concluded that about 100 packages, out of 1000+ were completely uninstalled. Gone. No trace of them in the rpm database, and the files were uninstalled. Swell. Fortunately I had a custom daily cron job that saved the list of installed packages, from that I slapped together a script to identify the list of missing packages, then assemble the list of files on the F9 DVD that I needed to install. That fixed it. So, this is an excellent opportunity for you to learn how to recover a bolloxed upgrade job, yourself. Good luck. pgpei37fdmmUw.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8 - F9 horror
scm in seattle scmsea at yahoo.com writes: yum repolist shows: Fedora - Rawhide... Then that must be it. Note that Rawhide is actually F10 pre-alpha, not F9, so no wonder it's buggy (but it has KDE 4.1 beta 1, so your complaints about 4.0 are missing the point). Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
