Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: Hmm - I had a problem with NM. I reported it. I gave feedback as and when requested. The problem is solved. I'm not complaining :-) I agree with you in principle. But it is very difficult to pin down a problem that only arises from time to time. In my experience NM starts on this laptop about 60% of the time, after one re-boot about 25% of the time,as and after two re-boots about 10% of the time. I don't find anything that helps except a complete reboot. I wish I could get NM connecting before login; then I could tell if it wasn't working, and start again in that case. My experience is that the checkbox for enabling at boot time is there for a reason, unfortunately the reason doesn't seem to be so that the network will actually be connected before login. I have it checked but the light on the USB WiFi doesn't even blink until I log in, at which point it suddenly negotiates a connection. And if you need to use it remotely, better just write a script, if there's a way to tell it to connect to the AP *first* then start the VPN to the home office, I haven't found it, and of course writing usable documentation, as Mathew says "is not a good use of developer time." Which is a polite way of saying that "if it was hard to write it should be hard to use." -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tim wrote: > Timothy Murphy: >> I'm afraid you are viewing Fedora with rose-tinted spectacles. > > And I counter claim the reverse. You look at Windows through > rose-tinted glasses, and at Fedora though broken glass. Not so. I use Linux (Fedora and Centos) 95% of the time, by choice. But I find your instinctive denigration of Windows just as annoying as the opposite denigration of Linux. I think that any reasonably objective person will agree that many things are done better in Fedora, and many things (eg WiFi) are done better in Windows. I just hope that Linux developers look at Windows with open eyes, and imitate what Windows does better (and do not imitate what it does worse). > For a lot of people Fedora does work without needing twiddling, I can't believe there is a single such person, let alone lots of them. One need only say "KDE 3 to 4" to realize how unlikely it is that anyone could use Fedora with no "twiddling" at all. Is there anyone in the world who has found Fedora sound and multimedia worked first time without any "twiddling"? > And, for a lot of people, Windows screws up royally, with > zero technical details provided about what's going wrong, and a similar > amount of options for doing something about it. In my experience, Windows screws up far less often than Fedora. But when it does screw up the problem is usually insoluble, at least by me. I have absolutely no idea why my Asus Athlon64 machine re-boots endlessly in Windows XP Home, but works faultlessly under Fedora-10. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 09:11 -0700, Phil Meyer wrote: > It is my opinion, that non technical persons should not touch a > computer at all, but that is unrealistic in today's society. I have similar feelings. I view being asked to fix up someone else's computer with the same amount of enthusiasm as if I'd been asked to unblock their toilet with my bare hands. I don't know why people who're really uninterested in computers want one, much less why those who're useless with them continue at it. I dread the day that those incompetent at first aid get mad keen on practising it. > So there are two fields of view here: > > 1. Educate the consumer. Some are really beyond it, many it's not worth the effort, and most probably don't want to be (many certainly don't want to be). > 2. Dumb down the computer. Make a computer that an idiot can use, and idiots will use it (and then they'll cause merry hell for everyone else). Oh, hang on, Microsoft's already catering for that demographic, and all the viruses, scams, etc, spread about by computer morons have made life hell for everyone. You have a Fisher Price interface, and limited functionality in an expensive gadget that should really have nearly unlimited capability, yet it's a Pandora's box that's all too easily exploited to spread its evils unto all and sundry (viruses, owned boxes of zombies, and commercial crapware). > The vast majority of people want the computer to be dumbed down. Make > it easier to do things, but then they really don't know what they want > to do, because they have no idea what a computer CAN do. It's a "magic box". Some people (including some that I have to regularly deal with), think that putting a computer in will solve all their problems. Problems that they don't understand in the first place, never mind trying to understand a computer, as well, to manage their situation. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tim: >> Perhaps. But then they might find Windows just as aggravating. I >> know I find it more so. Timothy Murphy: > I'm afraid you are viewing Fedora with rose-tinted spectacles. And I counter claim the reverse. You look at Windows through rose-tinted glasses, and at Fedora though broken glass. For a lot of people Fedora does work without needing twiddling, this list only has the few that bother to join and try and resolve *their* problems. And, for a lot of people, Windows screws up royally, with zero technical details provided about what's going wrong, and a similar amount of options for doing something about it. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Ed Greshko wrote: Timothy Murphy wrote: Matthew Flaschen wrote: I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and stop complaining. You seem to have a bizarre view of Linux. To my mind Linux, and in particular Fedora, is about learning, not about sending problems to "technicians". If I shared your view I would use another operating system. So, are you saying that (in your mind) Linux is only for people who wish to learn about the O/S? So, it shouldn't be used by an end-user that just wants a system to work? An end-user that doesn't want or care what a "colonel" is or thinks that application is what you do to deodorants? So, I really should tell my 86yr old dad to stop using Linux? There is no such thing as a consumer ready computer system. You do realize that cell phones are computers, and that the vast majority of cell phone users use very few of the available features of their phone? You do also realize that the millions and millions of autobot virus filled Windows based computers are operated by 'consumers'? It is my opinion, that non technical persons should not touch a computer at all, but that is unrealistic in today's society. So there are two fields of view here: 1. Educate the consumer. 2. Dumb down the computer. The vast majority of people want the computer to be dumbed down. Make it easier to do things, but then they really don't know what they want to do, because they have no idea what a computer CAN do. So, you create a computer that can only do web and email and an occasional document. But then that consumer will buy an iPhone and want them to synchronize email contacts. Do you see what I mean? There is no end. Fedora is open ended, as are most Linux distributions. Windows and OSX, on the other hand, are closed systems, meaning that if you cannot buy a program to do what you want, your computer cannot do it. Sure, you can buy a compiler and write your own, but what if that nifty app that you do buy is almost perfect? You are stuck. With every app in the Fedora repos, you have access to the source! Is it almost perfect? Fix it and submit your modifications upstream. But here we are again at that barrier of technical ability. And that barrier will remain. Use what you are given, or become technical. Good Luck! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tim wrote: > On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 12:57 +, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> I think someone who just wanted a system that works, >> and wasn't willing to experiment and read about the system, >> would find Fedora very frustrating. > > Perhaps. But then they might find Windows just as aggravating. I know > I find it more so. I'm afraid you are viewing Fedora with rose-tinted spectacles. Just consider WiFi, which is what this thread is nominally about. Under Windows there is a straightforward and intelligible route to setting up a WiFi connection - one clicks on "Connect to" and "View all connections" (I may have the titles wrong) and then right-clicks on the WiFi icon, and follows instructions. In my experience this works 98% of the time, and if it does not work I give up and use a different machine, or try to get an ethernet connection. I probably do not try to read up on the matter, as experience tells me this is unlikely to be rewarding on a Windows system; while if I follows the Troubleshooter I am almost certain to find myself in a circular loop. If I don't have a driver for the WiFi device I am using this is fairly obvious, and getting an appropriate driver and installing it is fairly straightfoward. Under Fedora, NM works eventually for me about 95% of the time, after an average of 1.4 re-boots. The point is, when I ask about this I get an enormous amount of information, among which is probably the nugget I need. But the process involves investigation and mild research. This is not necessarily a criticism of Fedora (or Linux). It is simply a description of the difference from Windows. I think one should be honest and tell anyone thinking of using Fedora that they are going to have to spend quite a lot of time and energy getting it to do what they want, whether connect to WiFi or listen to music. The suggestion that they will be able to solve their problems by posting log files to "technicians" is laughably inaccurate. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 12:57 +, Timothy Murphy wrote: > I think someone who just wanted a system that works, > and wasn't willing to experiment and read about the system, > would find Fedora very frustrating. Perhaps. But then they might find Windows just as aggravating. I know I find it more so. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Ed Greshko wrote: >>> I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to >>> technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't >>> understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report >>> the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and >>> stop complaining. >>> >> You seem to have a bizarre view of Linux. >> To my mind Linux, and in particular Fedora, is about learning, >> not about sending problems to "technicians". >> >> If I shared your view I would use another operating system. > So, are you saying that (in your mind) Linux is only for people who wish > to learn about the O/S? > So, it shouldn't be used by an end-user that > just wants a system to work? Unfortunately, I don't think Fedora - which I explicitly mentioned - is a good OS to recommend to someone who just wants a system to work. I wish it were, but you would have to be blind to reality to believe it is. I think someone who just wanted a system that works, and wasn't willing to experiment and read about the system, would find Fedora very frustrating. But I was replying to a poster who said, in effect, that "ordinary users" should not bother with logs but should just send them to "technicians" if they had a problem. My view is that logs should be intelligible to the interested user, and developers should make some effort to make them intelligible, in particular by documenting what they mean (eg in NM) by "state2 -> state 3", etc. I don't really understand the attitude of the NM developers to documentation. I would have thought anyone who had put in that much time in developing an application would want to explain to people how best to use it. > So, I really should tell my 86yr old dad to stop using Linux? It's not a matter of age, it's a matter of attitude and temperament. Many 80-year olds are eager to learn. Many 20-year olds only want to get from A to B. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > >> I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to >> technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't >> understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report >> the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and >> stop complaining. > > You seem to have a bizarre view of Linux. > To my mind Linux, and in particular Fedora, is about learning, > not about sending problems to "technicians". When did I say you shouldn't learn? Look at the message /you just quoted/. I said if you "don't want to look them up" or do anything else productive, you should stop complaining. Nowhere did I suggest you take an apathetic approach, or ignore everything and send it to tech support. In fact what I recommend is that you take initiative for your own system and learn what you can about it. However, I would not claim that I can figure out everything without seeking help either. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Mon, 2009-03-02 at 12:28 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote: > By the way my Network Manager implementation works okay with my > wireless hardware. I've discovered that it needs an amazingly long > time to build a connection to the access point -- I think there is > some sort of timing issue with it. Mine takes quite some time finding my dlink DIR-300 access point (around twenty seconds), and a little bit longer logging on (around ten to fifteen seconds), it's not the same each time (sometimes it takes ages, sometimes even requiring restarting NetworkManager, but I suspect that's down to NetworkManager or the wireless interface not waking up well after the laptop was suspended). It finds the neighbours, much weaker signal strength, access points almost immediately (some encrypted, some open). I don't know what brands they have, I've never asked them. My access point is set to announce itself, and the polling interval is fractions of seconds, so I expect it to be quick to find, though it's not. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > > >> I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to >> technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't >> understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report >> the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and >> stop complaining. >> > > You seem to have a bizarre view of Linux. > To my mind Linux, and in particular Fedora, is about learning, > not about sending problems to "technicians". > > If I shared your view I would use another operating system. > > So, are you saying that (in your mind) Linux is only for people who wish to learn about the O/S? So, it shouldn't be used by an end-user that just wants a system to work? An end-user that doesn't want or care what a "colonel" is or thinks that application is what you do to deodorants? So, I really should tell my 86yr old dad to stop using Linux? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Matthew Flaschen wrote: > I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to > technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't > understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report > the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and > stop complaining. You seem to have a bizarre view of Linux. To my mind Linux, and in particular Fedora, is about learning, not about sending problems to "technicians". If I shared your view I would use another operating system. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Beartooth wrote: > On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:28:50 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote: > > >> I agree that whatever a process can send to a system log, for purposes >> of error output, the better. If a URL could be supplied by a log message >> pointing to a resource that can help explain the meaning of the exact >> error code, that would be a great help too, because it saves the >> technician's time in tracking down the error. >> >> Speaking as someone who fixes other people's computers for money, I >> wish that "regular users" of every flavor would get accustomed to >> looking at log messages. Or at least email them to me on request. Doing >> so could save both of us a lot of time and money. I wouldn't have to >> charge so much, and my time is conserved for focusing on the really >> tough issues. >> > [snipperoo] > > If that spelling of your surname means you're related to the > great Emory E Cochran who wrote a Practical German Review Grammar, then > Sir, you are a worthy descendant, and if there's an afterlife he must be > proud of you. Fine draftsmanship, fine voice of experience; I > congratulate you -- and hope you stay on the Fedora list. > Thanks for the compliment. I'm not related to Emory. I'm just a simple technician. I've been on the Fedora list for a long while and expect to remain on it. I've been somewhat undiplomatic at times but I eventually learned to shy away from flame wars and not get involved. The real satisfaction for me is often the learning process I go through when implementing the advice I'm given here by others, and I finish feeling one step closer to having expertise. Bob > > -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:28:50 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote: > I agree that whatever a process can send to a system log, for purposes > of error output, the better. If a URL could be supplied by a log message > pointing to a resource that can help explain the meaning of the exact > error code, that would be a great help too, because it saves the > technician's time in tracking down the error. > > Speaking as someone who fixes other people's computers for money, I > wish that "regular users" of every flavor would get accustomed to > looking at log messages. Or at least email them to me on request. Doing > so could save both of us a lot of time and money. I wouldn't have to > charge so much, and my time is conserved for focusing on the really > tough issues. [snipperoo] If that spelling of your surname means you're related to the great Emory E Cochran who wrote a Practical German Review Grammar, then Sir, you are a worthy descendant, and if there's an afterlife he must be proud of you. Fine draftsmanship, fine voice of experience; I congratulate you -- and hope you stay on the Fedora list. -- Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Robert L Cochran wrote: > Speaking as someone who fixes other people's computers for money, I > wish that "regular users" of every flavor would get accustomed to > looking at log messages. Or at least email them to me on request. I agree that it's great if users look at logs and send them to technicians when appropriate. My point is just that if they don't understand them, don't want to look them up, and don't want to report the issue to someone who will, then they should just ignore the logs and stop complaining. > I don't really draw any line between a "regular user" and someone with > perhaps additional skills or training. I agree that such a dichotomy is not necessary. > So the more log output pertinent to an error, the better. Exactly. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
I agree that whatever a process can send to a system log, for purposes of error output, the better. If a URL could be supplied by a log message pointing to a resource that can help explain the meaning of the exact error code, that would be a great help too, because it saves the technician's time in tracking down the error. Speaking as someone who fixes other people's computers for money, I wish that "regular users" of every flavor would get accustomed to looking at log messages. Or at least email them to me on request. Doing so could save both of us a lot of time and money. I wouldn't have to charge so much, and my time is conserved for focusing on the really tough issues. I don't really draw any line between a "regular user" and someone with perhaps additional skills or training. In real life, working with real customers, I've seen a lot of variation here. Some customers have great technical skills, some don't. Some have a lot of smarts and can be coached to find and email a resource to me. Some are driven by time constraints that have to be appreciated and understood by technicians like me. Most are a lot smarter than they seem. What they have in common is a problem they all want fixed quickly and quietly. If that person can sift through log messages, and email them to me it helps a lot. So the more log output pertinent to an error, the better. By the way my Network Manager implementation works okay with my wireless hardware. I've discovered that it needs an amazingly long time to build a connection to the access point -- I think there is some sort of timing issue with it. But generally within 3-5 minutes of my logging on to my user account, the machine does connect to the access point. I just get a few more gray hairs waiting for this to happen. Bob Matthew Flaschen wrote: > Marc Wilson wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 10:54:17PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> >>> This is debugging output intended for wireless driver developers only, you >>> are not expected to understand it. >>> >> Then it shouldn't be outputting it, unless it's asked for. >> > > That's a ridiculous statement. /var/log/messages is not something > regular users are supposed to be looking at constantly. In normal use, > messages get printed there and ignored. That's okay. > > However, when an error occurs, it is vital the user be able to go to the > logs and copy relevant information. Having a "enable output to > /var/log" option would make it very hard to find intermittent errors. > > If you're an ordinary user and don't plan to file a bug report, just > ignore the logs and go on your way. > > Matt Flaschen > > -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: > If you never want to see the error messages, then turn off sending > them to the log files. You can configure (r)syslog to throw them > away. That's another valid option, if you really think the logs are harming your performance (the impact is usually negligible for desktop machines and small-scale servers). Otherwise, just ignore them. I like the fact that I can go digging in the logs when > something goes wrong. I definitely agree. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Matthew Flaschen wrote: > Marc Wilson wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 10:54:17PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: >>> This is debugging output intended for wireless driver developers only, you >>> are not expected to understand it. >> Then it shouldn't be outputting it, unless it's asked for. > > That's a ridiculous statement. /var/log/messages is not something > regular users are supposed to be looking at constantly. In normal use, > messages get printed there and ignored. That's okay. > > However, when an error occurs, it is vital the user be able to go to the > logs and copy relevant information. Having a "enable output to > /var/log" option would make it very hard to find intermittent errors. > > If you're an ordinary user and don't plan to file a bug report, just > ignore the logs and go on your way. > > Matt Flaschen > If you never want to see the error messages, then turn off sending them to the log files. You can configure (r)syslog to throw them away. I like the fact that I can go digging in the logs when something goes wrong. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 10:54:17PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> This is debugging output intended for wireless driver developers only, you >> are not expected to understand it. > > Then it shouldn't be outputting it, unless it's asked for. That's a ridiculous statement. /var/log/messages is not something regular users are supposed to be looking at constantly. In normal use, messages get printed there and ignored. That's okay. However, when an error occurs, it is vital the user be able to go to the logs and copy relevant information. Having a "enable output to /var/log" option would make it very hard to find intermittent errors. If you're an ordinary user and don't plan to file a bug report, just ignore the logs and go on your way. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 10:54:17PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > This is debugging output intended for wireless driver developers only, you > are not expected to understand it. Then it shouldn't be outputting it, unless it's asked for. -- Marc Wilson | Tell me what to think!!! m...@cox.net | -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, 2009-03-01 at 17:05 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote: > >> Part of the problem here is understanding the difference between the > >> network service and the NetworkManager service. The network service > >> will connect before you log in, while the NetworkManager service > >> connects after you log in. You normally want to run only one of > >> these services. I like the network service for servers and desktops, > >> and the NetworkManager service for laptops. (I need to be able to > >> connect to my desktop even if nobody is logged in.) You can have > >> both services running at the same time, but you have to make sure > >> you have the interfaces that you do not want NetworkManager to > >> control marked as such. > >> > >> > > To add to the discussion, NM doesn't connect to the network without a > > gui. That seems a rather shortsighted design. I found this the hard > > way today when my gui got screwed after an update and some ill > > considered tinkering. > > > What you and Mikkel say make me realize I'm the one who is the dummy > here. I was assuming that NetWorkManager will automatically connect to > my hidden wireless network after I did the setup work after choosing > System --> Administration --> Network, and supplying my network details. > Maybe that GUI has nothing to do with NetworkManager. But I didn't think > of this at the time. I saved the settings in that GUI, got a message > indicating I may want to restart my network, and without thinking that > the 'network' service is turned off in chkconfig for all runlevels > anyhow, I merrily typed away 'service network restart'. Ouch. > > It looks like I have to click the gui icon on the top right of my > desktop showing two computer monitors and then select either a visible > network name, or 'Connect to hidden network...' for the first time one > does a wireless connection. I'll reboot soon to see if it connects > automatically from here on. > > Apparently there is a settings file in > /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf that one can work with, but > mine only has the text > > [main] > plugins=ifcfg-fedora > > and there seems very little NetworkManager documentation to start with. > Maybe it is all in the wiki. The additional plugin should be called: keyfile -- === Shannon's Observation: Nothing is so frustrating as a bad situation that is beginning to improve. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
2009/3/1 Kevin Kofler : > suvayu ali wrote: >> To add to the discussion, NM doesn't connect to the network without a >> gui. That seems a rather shortsighted design. I found this the hard >> way today when my gui got screwed after an update and some ill >> considered tinkering. > > This is only true if you don't have a systemwide configuration set up. The > current NetworkManager can also use configuration from > system-config-network, just as the old network service does. > 2009/3/1 Kevin Kofler : > Robert L Cochran wrote: >> plugins=ifcfg-fedora > > That's the plugin which is supposed to handle settings from > system-config-network. But I think this feature is mainly tested with wired > networks. Some wireless stuff is known not to be supported, for example > WPA. (The Fedora ifcfg settings have no settings for WPA.) > That probably explains my case. I use a USB wifi receiver to connect to the Internet. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Robert L Cochran wrote: > plugins=ifcfg-fedora That's the plugin which is supposed to handle settings from system-config-network. But I think this feature is mainly tested with wired networks. Some wireless stuff is known not to be supported, for example WPA. (The Fedora ifcfg settings have no settings for WPA.) Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
>> Part of the problem here is understanding the difference between the >> network service and the NetworkManager service. The network service >> will connect before you log in, while the NetworkManager service >> connects after you log in. You normally want to run only one of >> these services. I like the network service for servers and desktops, >> and the NetworkManager service for laptops. (I need to be able to >> connect to my desktop even if nobody is logged in.) You can have >> both services running at the same time, but you have to make sure >> you have the interfaces that you do not want NetworkManager to >> control marked as such. >> >> > To add to the discussion, NM doesn't connect to the network without a > gui. That seems a rather shortsighted design. I found this the hard > way today when my gui got screwed after an update and some ill > considered tinkering. > What you and Mikkel say make me realize I'm the one who is the dummy here. I was assuming that NetWorkManager will automatically connect to my hidden wireless network after I did the setup work after choosing System --> Administration --> Network, and supplying my network details. Maybe that GUI has nothing to do with NetworkManager. But I didn't think of this at the time. I saved the settings in that GUI, got a message indicating I may want to restart my network, and without thinking that the 'network' service is turned off in chkconfig for all runlevels anyhow, I merrily typed away 'service network restart'. Ouch. It looks like I have to click the gui icon on the top right of my desktop showing two computer monitors and then select either a visible network name, or 'Connect to hidden network...' for the first time one does a wireless connection. I'll reboot soon to see if it connects automatically from here on. Apparently there is a settings file in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf that one can work with, but mine only has the text [main] plugins=ifcfg-fedora and there seems very little NetworkManager documentation to start with. Maybe it is all in the wiki. Bob >> Mikkel >> -- >> >> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing? >> > > nice sig :P > > -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
suvayu ali wrote: > To add to the discussion, NM doesn't connect to the network without a > gui. That seems a rather shortsighted design. I found this the hard > way today when my gui got screwed after an update and some ill > considered tinkering. This is only true if you don't have a systemwide configuration set up. The current NetworkManager can also use configuration from system-config-network, just as the old network service does. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: > I probably shouldn't have said "error message". > I should have said "informational message". > Surely it would take very little effort to explain what > "device state change: 1 -> 2" actually means? This is debugging output intended for wireless driver developers only, you are not expected to understand it. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
2009/3/1 Mikkel L. Ellertson : > Robert L Cochran wrote: >> I too am having a problem with Network Manager, and like Anne, I should >> file a bug and provide feedback if requested. In my case Network Manager >> seems to have a terribly difficult time connecting to my wireless >> network before I login. I always have to force a restart of the network >> service in order to get the magic "Connection Established" gui popup >> message and the connectivity bars icon showing at the top right of my >> screen. I think it may have something to do with a problem in ifup-eth >> and dhclient. >> > Part of the problem here is understanding the difference between the > network service and the NetworkManager service. The network service > will connect before you log in, while the NetworkManager service > connects after you log in. You normally want to run only one of > these services. I like the network service for servers and desktops, > and the NetworkManager service for laptops. (I need to be able to > connect to my desktop even if nobody is logged in.) You can have > both services running at the same time, but you have to make sure > you have the interfaces that you do not want NetworkManager to > control marked as such. > To add to the discussion, NM doesn't connect to the network without a gui. That seems a rather shortsighted design. I found this the hard way today when my gui got screwed after an update and some ill considered tinkering. > Mikkel > -- > > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing? nice sig :P -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Robert L Cochran wrote: > I too am having a problem with Network Manager, and like Anne, I should > file a bug and provide feedback if requested. In my case Network Manager > seems to have a terribly difficult time connecting to my wireless > network before I login. I always have to force a restart of the network > service in order to get the magic "Connection Established" gui popup > message and the connectivity bars icon showing at the top right of my > screen. I think it may have something to do with a problem in ifup-eth > and dhclient. > Part of the problem here is understanding the difference between the network service and the NetworkManager service. The network service will connect before you log in, while the NetworkManager service connects after you log in. You normally want to run only one of these services. I like the network service for servers and desktops, and the NetworkManager service for laptops. (I need to be able to connect to my desktop even if nobody is logged in.) You can have both services running at the same time, but you have to make sure you have the interfaces that you do not want NetworkManager to control marked as such. Mikkel -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
--- On Sun, 3/1/09, Timothy Murphy wrote: > From: Timothy Murphy > Subject: Re: NM: the usual rant > To: fedora-list@redhat.com > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:51 AM > Kevin Kofler wrote: > > >> I'm having problems with NM again. > >> I often have to re-boot once or twice before it > connects. > > > > It's probably a bug in your network (wireless?) > driver rather than NM. > > What driver are you using? > > orinoco_cs . > My impression is that NM does not wait long enough at some > point, > which if true could be reported in normal English. > > ... > >> Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible > >> by the common user? > >> Or are they intended solely for gurus? > > > They're intended solely for driver developers, > there's nothing you can do > > about these errors anyway if you're not a kernel > driver developer. Just > > file a bug against the network driver you're > using. > > In the good old days one could understand why They said > "error 478", > because space was so short. > Nowadays everyone has acres of space. > Even if the kernel error messages are kept secret, > I think the NM messages, "stage 6 -> stage 7", > etc, > could be made intelligible with very few extra bytes. > Eg "Contacted dhcp server. Response: unknown > device." > This would at least suggest where to look. > > > -- > Timothy Murphy > e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net > tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 > s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, > Ireland > > > -- Take a look at output of dmesg and/or tail -f /var/log/messages Usually, you will get a more detailed description of what is going on :) Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
I too am having a problem with Network Manager, and like Anne, I should
file a bug and provide feedback if requested. In my case Network Manager
seems to have a terribly difficult time connecting to my wireless
network before I login. I always have to force a restart of the network
service in order to get the magic "Connection Established" gui popup
message and the connectivity bars icon showing at the top right of my
screen. I think it may have something to do with a problem in ifup-eth
and dhclient.
[r...@deafeng3 ~]# service network restart
Shutting down interface eth0: [ OK ]
Shutting down interface wlan0: [ OK ]
Shutting down loopback interface: [ OK ]
Bringing up loopback interface: [ OK ]
Bringing up interface eth0:
Determining IP information for eth0... failed; no link present. Check cable?
[FAILED]
Bringing up interface wlan0:
Determining IP information for
wlan0.../etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-eth: line 291: 4291
Terminated /sbin/dhclient ${DHCLIENTARGS} ${DEVICE}
failed.
[FAILED]
(At this point, if I see the line about ifup-eth, the "Connection
established" GUI message will appear and I have wireless connectivity
regardless of the failure messages mentioned above.)
hardware:
Dell Latitude E6400, with this wireless device:
0c:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5300 AGN
[Shiloh] Network Connection
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 1121
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 17
Memory at f1ffe000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=8K]
Capabilities:
Kernel driver in use: iwlagn
Kernel modules: iwlagn
Maybe I ought to be using a different kernel driver...
Bob
Timothy Murphy wrote:
> I'm having problems with NM again.
> I often have to re-boot once or twice before it connects.
>
> But that is not the subject of this rant.
> To try to make sense of what is happening
> I have been looking through NM entries in /var/log/messages
> and I find these less than helpful.
>
> Was ever so much written to so little purpose?
>
> I see for example:
>
> Feb 23 14:49:41 mary NetworkManager: check_one_route():
>(eth1) error -34 returned from rtnl_route_del(): Sucess#012
> Feb 23 14:49:41 mary avahi-daemon[2272]:
> Withdrawing address record for 192.168.2.19 on eth1.
> Feb 23 14:49:41 mary avahi-daemon[2272]:
> Leaving mDNS multicast group on interface eth1.IPv4 with address
> 192.168.2.19.
> Feb 23 14:49:41 mary avahi-daemon[2272]:
> Interface eth1.IPv4 no longer relevant for mDNS.
> Feb 23 14:49:47 mary NetworkManager:
> (eth1): now unmanaged
>
> What does this mean?
> What is error -34?
> How can one find out?
>
> Or:
>
> Feb 24 20:47:58 mary NetworkManager: (
> eth1): supplicant interface state: starting -> ready
> Feb 24 20:50:29 mary kernel: eth1:
> Error -19 disabling MAC port
> Feb 24 20:50:30 mary NetworkManager:
> (eth1): now unmanaged
>
> What is error -19?
>
> Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible
> by the common user?
> Or are they intended solely for gurus?
>
> And what are all these states NM keeps going into
> and coming out of?
>
> Feb 24 20:50:38 mary NetworkManager:
> (eth1): preparing device.
> Feb 24 20:50:38 mary NetworkManager:
> (eth1): deactivating device (reason: 2).
> Feb 24 20:50:38 mary NetworkManager:
> (eth1): device state change: 2 -> 3
>
> What is "reason: 2"?
> Where are the states documented?
>
> NM = nightmare ...
>
>
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Anne Wilson wrote: > Hmm - I had a problem with NM. I reported it. I gave feedback as and when > requested. The problem is solved. I'm not complaining :-) I agree with you in principle. But it is very difficult to pin down a problem that only arises from time to time. In my experience NM starts on this laptop about 60% of the time, after one re-boot about 25% of the time, and after two re-boots about 10% of the time. I don't find anything that helps except a complete reboot. I wish I could get NM connecting before login; then I could tell if it wasn't working, and start again in that case. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Matthew Flaschen wrote: >> Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible >> by the common user? >> Or are they intended solely for gurus? > > Some are for end users, some are for gurus (meant for posting on bug > reports and mailing lists). "Translating" every error message is not a > good use of developer time. I probably shouldn't have said "error message". I should have said "informational message". Surely it would take very little effort to explain what "device state change: 1 -> 2" actually means? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Kevin Kofler wrote: >> I'm having problems with NM again. >> I often have to re-boot once or twice before it connects. > > It's probably a bug in your network (wireless?) driver rather than NM. > What driver are you using? orinoco_cs . My impression is that NM does not wait long enough at some point, which if true could be reported in normal English. ... >> Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible >> by the common user? >> Or are they intended solely for gurus? > They're intended solely for driver developers, there's nothing you can do > about these errors anyway if you're not a kernel driver developer. Just > file a bug against the network driver you're using. In the good old days one could understand why They said "error 478", because space was so short. Nowadays everyone has acres of space. Even if the kernel error messages are kept secret, I think the NM messages, "stage 6 -> stage 7", etc, could be made intelligible with very few extra bytes. Eg "Contacted dhcp server. Response: unknown device." This would at least suggest where to look. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:57:05 + Alan Cox wrote: > If you want to look at poor practice then gdm is a far better example Oh there is no doubt of that. I downloaded the source for gdm to try and understand how I might fix bug 451562, and it boggles the mind. An app who's one job is to validate a user and let him login has become a vast series of interlocking dbus connected apps, shuffling around information like some con artist running a shell game. If I were to try for years, I couldn't manage to make such a simple task so complex. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
> Didn't I agree NM was a nightmare? But your problem is not NM. Your > problem is you don't have a realistic view of software development > practices. If you want to look at poor practice then gdm is a far better example - that *used* to be a usable piece of software then it got "improved" and nobody bothered to finish the job and make the UI configurable or remote management configurable by mere mortals. Network Manager at least goes in a forward direction but horribly slowly - especially considering the Nokia maemo devices shipped with equivalent functionality to that aspired to by NM and has done so for years now. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tom Horsley wrote: > On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 10:26:09 -0500 > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > >> They read the source and developer >> documentation and solve the problem themselves > > Too bad the NM developers didn't feel like doing that > to fix the problems with network instead of deciding > to just chuck everything and write a completely > non-functional incompatible "replacement". Didn't I agree NM was a nightmare? But your problem is not NM. Your problem is you don't have a realistic view of software development practices. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sunday 01 March 2009 15:35:09 Tom Horsley wrote: > On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 10:26:09 -0500 > > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > > They read the source and developer > > documentation and solve the problem themselves > > Too bad the NM developers didn't feel like doing that > to fix the problems with network instead of deciding > to just chuck everything and write a completely > non-functional incompatible "replacement". Hmm - I had a problem with NM. I reported it. I gave feedback as and when requested. The problem is solved. I'm not complaining :-) Anne -- New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org Just found a cool new feature? Add it to UserBase signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, 2009-03-01 at 10:35 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 10:26:09 -0500 > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > > > They read the source and developer > > documentation and solve the problem themselves > > Too bad the NM developers didn't feel like doing that > to fix the problems with network instead of deciding > to just chuck everything and write a completely > non-functional incompatible "replacement". It's not "completely non-functional" for everybody. I for one have no problems with it (DHCP and wired LAN, one of the simplest cases of course). Hyperbole just alienates people and doesn't help get it fixed. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tom Horsley wrote: > Too bad the NM developers didn't feel like doing that > to fix the problems with network instead of deciding > to just chuck everything and write a completely > non-functional incompatible "replacement". What you're seeing are bugs in the _driver_, not in NM! Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 10:26:09 -0500 Matthew Flaschen wrote: > They read the source and developer > documentation and solve the problem themselves Too bad the NM developers didn't feel like doing that to fix the problems with network instead of deciding to just chuck everything and write a completely non-functional incompatible "replacement". -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Tom Horsley wrote: > On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 09:07:31 -0500 > Matthew Flaschen wrote: > >> "Translating" every error message is not a >> good use of developer time. > > Yes, it is a far better use of developer time to be inundated > by folks asking what the hell obscure messages and behaviour means. No, it's not. Note that I didn't say, "Email the error codes the developers personally." File a /thorough/ bug report on a bug tracker or developer mailing list, or ask for advice from users, such as here. > But, not to worry, it won't be the actual NM developers > who get that grief, but instead the poor fools who > offer commercial linux support. You're a fool. What do you think this magical commercial support does when confronted with a problem?They read the source and developer documentation and solve the problem themselves, or they report a bug once they have enough information. Exactly the same thing you could do if you weren't busy whining. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 09:07:31 -0500 Matthew Flaschen wrote: > "Translating" every error message is not a > good use of developer time. Yes, it is a far better use of developer time to be inundated by folks asking what the hell obscure messages and behaviour means. But, not to worry, it won't be the actual NM developers who get that grief, but instead the poor fools who offer commercial linux support. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: > I'm having problems with NM again. > I often have to re-boot once or twice before it connects. It's probably a bug in your network (wireless?) driver rather than NM. What driver are you using? > What is error -34? A kernel error code. > How can one find out? There's an enum somewhere in the kernel. > What is error -19? Another kernel error code. > Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible > by the common user? > Or are they intended solely for gurus? They're intended solely for driver developers, there's nothing you can do about these errors anyway if you're not a kernel driver developer. Just file a bug against the network driver you're using. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: NM: the usual rant
Timothy Murphy wrote: > Surely Linux error messages should be intelligible > by the common user? > Or are they intended solely for gurus? Some are for end users, some are for gurus (meant for posting on bug reports and mailing lists). "Translating" every error message is not a good use of developer time. > Where are the states documented? Use The Source, or be patient. > NM = nightmare ... True. Matt Flaschen -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
