Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bill Davidsen wrote: snip Lately I think sympathy would be appropriate. :-( 'snipping' history would also be appreciated. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIupNZ+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAsDFAKC2LwVQFIvNHD+VnjdfABfOu/YLxACgmyKU YZQaG9Y69KlWE2NHAGPEVXI= =NTBD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
This has been an interesting discussion, including some good tangents. I think there's a general consensus that a tighter focus on encouragement/advice/assistance (which shapes up as support without saying support, and meaning support in more than just a pure-technical sense). Based on this discussion I've changed the list description to read: fedora-list: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. This means that extended threads on philosophical and political topics are off-topic for this list. There are other lists, such as fedora-advisory-board, for discussion of these very valid issues, and proposals for the creation of a new list are welcome (though some groan at the prospect of yet another list, so I suspect you'd have to make a strong case!). There have also been a couple of offers to help with the list ownership (thank you!). Paul and I will reply privately to those volunteers early next week. -Chris -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Paul W. Frields wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 10:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. Historically we have avoided using the word support because for many people, it implied commercial support and to differentiate Fedora from RHEL. Not sure that is a problem anymore. Maybe the following is better: Community help and assistance for using the Fedora distribution of Linux Help and assistance are synonyms, so using both would be redundant. The word support would be more in line with succor (um, no) or encouragement (hey, that might work!). Lately I think sympathy would be appropriate. :-( -- Bill Davidsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
g wrote: Rahul is always gentlemanly enough to listen politely to other points of view, then he always responds - as he must - with the policy line. bull. he is very good at giving answers to questions. Yes, as long as they match the project's policies. It is easy enough to obtain a list of thousands of references to any and so it would be with setting up and using a wiki. Using a wiki is easy enough - setting one up so it is not constrained by the fedora projects restrictions yet is visible enough to become the central well-known repository for community provided information would not be so simple. see my reply to Antonio Olivares. I think you are mistaken. Are you on any mail lists that have run some time without an associated wiki, then added one? -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 04:51 +, g wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip Maybe these FAQs are good enough in terms of content (I don't know), but if newbies don't know about them and oldies very rarely refer to them then there's a piece missing. all of them were easily found by clicking menus at left of main pages. But how many people even bother to look at these pages? This was discussed recently. Until shown otherwise, I stand by my theory that the lack of search is due to the list being managed by Mailman. i really do not feel blame is 'mailman'. I'll repeat what I said a few days ago in another thread: even the Mailman archives (i.e. the archives of the mailman-users list) don't have a search box! See http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030520 which confirms this and suggests several alternatives. I'm sure if was easy to do this it would have been done long ago and this list would have a search function. Note: *easy*, not *possible*. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, dexter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu August 28 2008 19:40:10 Les Mikesell wrote: Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Well actually you only have to look to this list to find solutions for all these problems. Official Fedora people are bound and gagged, you me the Users can say and build what we like and help others do the same if they so wish. Just take the bits and mould them in your own image, Leave the politics for fedora legal. ...dex /me thinks we need another stanton-finley.net OS politics and legalism does not help me troubleshoot a broken system or application. If I have a problem with Fedora and I have to go elsewhere other than the fedora list, then I think there is a flaw somewhere. Very frequently there are ideological exchanges in this list, maybe there should be a new list called fedora-ideology-list. :-) That way the fedora-users would remain as technical repository of idea for less experienced users. ~af -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 04:51 +, g wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip Maybe these FAQs are good enough in terms of content (I don't know), but if newbies don't know about them and oldies very rarely refer to them then there's a piece missing. all of them were easily found by clicking menus at left of main pages. But how many people even bother to look at these pages? This was discussed recently. Until shown otherwise, I stand by my theory that the lack of search is due to the list being managed by Mailman. i really do not feel blame is 'mailman'. I'll repeat what I said a few days ago in another thread: even the Mailman archives (i.e. the archives of the mailman-users list) don't have a search box! See http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030520 which confirms this and suggests several alternatives. I'm sure if was easy to do this it would have been done long ago and this list would have a search function. Note: *easy*, not *possible*. poc Not easy, but not impossible... we simply got to stick to the limitations of the design. A search function would greatly simplify the search for answers. Don't we normally say google this, google that because we know the benefit of a search mechanism? ~af -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Aldo Foot wrote: I'm sure if was easy to do this it would have been done long ago and this list would have a search function. Note: *easy*, not *possible*. Not easy, but not impossible... we simply got to stick to the limitations of the design. A search function would greatly simplify the search for answers. Don't we normally say google this, google that because we know the benefit of a search mechanism? Yes, for someone who is used to the mechanism, a raw search will often turn up useful information that isn't available in a better-organized format anywhere. But you have to discard the questions and incorrect answers that a search will return and it's not really a good replacement for a tutorial on how to find, add, and maintain the components that fedora omits. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip But how many people even bother to look at these pages? and my point about 'another wiki'. I'll repeat what I said a few days ago in another thread: even the Mailman archives (i.e. the archives of the mailman-users list) don't have a search box! See http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030520 which confirms this and suggests several alternatives. so who is responsible for; http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ I'm sure if was easy to do this it would have been done long ago and this list would have a search function. Note: *easy*, not *possible*. looks like easy is using google's 'Search within a site or domain:'. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIuEOY+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAg6jAKC4lAYhxURw0ZKHzlimJCgDQBel3gCaAomf yUEr/KvDh5yHs9MRg71qL50= =kjz1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip Yes, as long as they match the project's policies. so what is wrong with that? Using a wiki is easy enough if you are so bent out of shape for a wiki, why do you not write up one yourself and stop saying how great and wonderful it would be? who knows, it just might make you famous. :o) see my reply to Antonio Olivares. I think you are mistaken. mistaken where? being that you obviously did not understand; 'buy the cow' | 'tough titty' is someone looking thru a faq or wiki. 'milk is free' | 'milk taste swell' is not bothering and just using a tech support list. Are you on any mail lists that have run some time without an associated wiki, then added one? depends on how you define 'associated'. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIuEOm+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAqGqAKCMxkwhUAwt6VeIfILmy1tYAr9sNACgjqk9 Xt2S13VdFb580X7Ostz8ErY= =geU+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
g wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: snip Yes, as long as they match the project's policies. so what is wrong with that? Many, perhaps most, issues that users have with fedora have to do with the policy of hostility towards software that is not included in the distribution (and there is no point in discussing the reasons for this again). Using a wiki is easy enough if you are so bent out of shape for a wiki, why do you not write up one yourself and stop saying how great and wonderful it would be? To be generally useful it has to be done by people who are legally permitted to talk about things like vlc. If the fedora legal team's assessment is right, that precludes the US and other places that observe software patents. Things like skype, nvidia, java and vmware could be discussed anywhere, but it all needs to be organized in one spot if you expect people to read it. see my reply to Antonio Olivares. I think you are mistaken. mistaken where? being that you obviously did not understand; Mistaken in thinking that adding a wiki would not improve the mail list. 'buy the cow' | 'tough titty' is someone looking thru a faq or wiki. 'milk is free' | 'milk taste swell' is not bothering and just using a tech support list. Everyone likes free samples - but when there are better organized and more complete versions easily available some of the traffic will go there instead of repeating on the list. Are you on any mail lists that have run some time without an associated wiki, then added one? depends on how you define 'associated'. I mean one where a wiki was added specifically to accumulate/organize the wisdom from the list and users were encouraged to both read and contribute to it. It has seemed successful on the ones I've observed. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 14:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: To be generally useful it has to be done by people who are legally permitted to talk about things like vlc. What makes you think that a wiki would not be able to do that, when this mailing list does it all the time? poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
* Ralf Corsepius [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20080827 21:41]: On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: [snip] Umm, the distro does not come with strings attached. Of cause it does. You might want to have some closer looks into the details, e.g. think about why you can't find certain SW bundled with the distro, think about why some people are agitating against OSS licenses or subsets of them? A bit bluntly formulated: Linux is more than a simple OS, Linux is part of a sociological and political movement. Correct. However, using Linux or requesting help with Linux does not require a full-blown education of that sociological and political movement in order to receive the help. What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires technical assistance. (I've made this point before.) Agreed, nevertheless, these folks should learn and understand about the backgrounds - It's why I am saying, restricting a fedora users-list to mere technical topics would be a severe mistake. Yes, they could learn about the background of Linux, FSF, the Fedora Project and all things good. But forcing them to assimilate your political and philosophical views in order to receive help or technical advice - that is simply bad attitude IMNSHO. If someone asks the question: - How can I create mp3's from my CD's in my clean new install of Fedora 9? answering that a simple explanation that the mp3 codec is not Free and can not be included in Fedora proper, but if you want it anyway, Livna has lame and quickly describe how to enable Livna and install it is IMHO a sensible approach. It does not require a lecture, it does not require them to be educated on sociological and political ideologies. It requires only a straight answer. The answer could contain a pointer to a Wiki page about Fedora policy on patent encumbered tools and codecs. Leave it at that. I agree heartily. I suggest that the non-technical/political aspects be reserved for another group, like Fedora-Advocacy or sth similar. You don't want to lean about your distro's heritage, backgrounds, objectives and the consequences of these? Learning about this you can do without having flame-fests on the very list people come to for help. An advocacy forum where people can debate ideological, philosophical and political viewpoints is plain and simple the sensible solution. It is not a new idea either. IIRC, FidoNet had forums specifically for the argumentative people. So does UseNet. Why? To keep the technical forums technical. This really is not rocket surgery. Any regularly posted FAQ to the list can contain links to Wiki pages that explain heritage, goals and reasons for doing some things a certain way. These pages can even explain the ideological, philosophical and political viewpoints. You want to keep you head in the sand - Ostrich policy? No. I happen to work in support, it's my job. If I started treating my customers the way you propose to treat the users that turn up here, I would be told in no uncertain terms what they think of such an arrogant attitude and what I could do with that attitude. Whether a customer is paying or not, treat them with respect. That may include swallowing your pride that they simply are not interested in knowing about your particular philosophical and political standpoint. If they are interested, they'll ask for or seek out/be directed to the appropriate forum. /Anders -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Tim: On a similar note, the unsubscribe link on each message is rather g: pressing ctrl+u in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more light on what to do. I don't know if the URI is obscurred on the HTML versions of the mail. But here, when I do get a HTML posting from the list, it's not. But that wasn't quite the point, it was the unsubscribe prompt associated with it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ideal situation is to have volunteers that organize and maintain the answers to common questions on the mail list into a wiki so repeat questions can be answered with a link - or avoided by searching there first. However, most of the repeat questions regarding fedora involve things that can only be found in 3rd party repositories that for legal reasons are not mentioned, and probably can't be on any official fedora wiki either. Huh? Is there something that can't be mentioned on this list? Can you provide an example? I'm not sure that it can't be mentioned on this list, but the things you need to make fedora generally useful won't be mentioned by anyone officially connected to fedora. Where do you get Nvidia drivers? Where do you get multimedia codecs? How do you install Sun Java? How do you make any commercial product work (flash/vmware/etc., etc.)? There are legal reasons for some of that for a US based company. Some is just anticompetitive philosophy. Regardless, what users need to know is not going to be supplied through any official channel. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 08:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. Just like how people use Google instead of asking about something on a mailing list... ;-) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
RE: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-Original Message- From: Les Mikesell I'm not sure that it can't be mentioned on this list, but the things you need to make fedora generally useful won't be mentioned by anyone officially connected to fedora. Where do you get Nvidia drivers? Where do you get multimedia codecs? How do you install Sun Java? How do you make any commercial product work (flash/vmware/etc., etc.)? There are legal reasons for some of that for a US based company. Some is just anticompetitive philosophy. Regardless, what users need to know is not going to be supplied through any official channel. Les, That is what I am questioning. It seems that you are suggesting that the makers of Fedora can't even tell us where to get Nvidia ( yes, just an example ), let alone include them with a distro or part of the automagic update process. Even Ubuntu does that with their 3rd party option when chosing what to install or update. What law or contract is broken when a company provides a link to another company's site? Particularly, when that other company would want to have that link. Or have I completely misunderstood and need to do some reading? Got some sites? thanks, Michael The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
What law or contract is broken when a company provides a link to another company's site? Particularly, when that other company would want to have that link. 2600 decision. Or have I completely misunderstood and need to do some reading? Got some sites? Read up on 'contributory infringement' and remember US so called free speech is strictly and narrowly defined to be political speech. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
[...]
I agree heartily. I suggest that the non-technical/political aspects
be reserved for another group, like Fedora-Advocacy or sth similar.
You don't want to lean about your distro's heritage, backgrounds,
objectives and the consequences of these?
You want to keep you head in the sand - Ostrich policy?
I don't need to learn. I first encountered Richard Stallman
in 1986, and we exchanged several e-mails about his ideas
at the time. I find the basis of the FSF very unappealing
to me personally. However, if that's what he wants to do, then
I'll take the product. Where it is good, that is. For a
while grep, for example, was an awful mess, and I wrote my
own and used it for a few years. Since that time grep has
undergone a complete rewrite.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Alan Cox wrote: What law or contract is broken when a company provides a link to another company's site? Particularly, when that other company would want to have that link. 2600 decision. Or have I completely misunderstood and need to do some reading? Got some sites? Read up on 'contributory infringement' and remember US so called free speech is strictly and narrowly defined to be political speech. _AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora users need to be prepared to find information and resources elsewhere. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:32 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
It's (traditional) C. Put it into a file like self-rep.c and then
$ gcc -o self-rep self-rep.c
$ ./self-rep
and see what happens.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ gcc -o test test.c
test.c:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class
test.c:1: warning: initialization makes integer from pointer without a
cast
test.c: In function ‘main’:
test.c:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in
function ‘printf’
test.c:1: warning: passing argument 1 of ‘printf’ makes pointer from
integer without a cast
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ ./test
p=p=%c%s%
c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);[EMAIL PROTECTED]
~]$
That's what happened when doing it on a F9 box.
--
Mike Chambers
Fedora Project - Ambassador, Bug Zapper, Tester, User, etc..
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip The 'database' is in the head of the person writing the answer - who is also likely to be the same person who just collated the relevant information into the wiki or recently read it there. Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. or, in other words, another 'faq'. so what you are saying is that this is not enough? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Main_Page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/Download#FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy/MailingLists?highlight=%28mailing+list%29 http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ if you believe that, then i would suggest that you contact rahul sundaram, as he is maintainer of 'wiki/faq'. i am sure that he would be interested in what you have to say, and more than happy to help you. for 'fedora-list', there is https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/ one thing that may be lacking is a way to search archives. if there is a search engine to do this, i have not found it. also, if one wants to check other mail list archives; https://www.redhat.com/archives/[desired-list]/, replacing [desired-list] with name of list archive to see - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIttsF+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAiqpAJ0QDPMrbEUWIBApc8mKFqplnfGLgQCgqOQo skjYFVw0ST5eeSkeLh05mLk= =BOrD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 12:09 AM, Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:32 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
It's (traditional) C. Put it into a file like self-rep.c and then
$ gcc -o self-rep self-rep.c
$ ./self-rep
and see what happens.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ gcc -o test test.c
test.c:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class
test.c:1: warning: initialization makes integer from pointer without a
cast
test.c: In function 'main':
test.c:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in
function 'printf'
test.c:1: warning: passing argument 1 of 'printf' makes pointer from
integer without a cast
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ ./test
p=p=%c%s%
c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);[EMAIL PROTECTED]
~]$
That's what happened when doing it on a F9 box.
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Hmmm... c++ vs standard C?
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:23 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: Alan Cox wrote: What law or contract is broken when a company provides a link to another company's site? Particularly, when that other company would want to have that link. 2600 decision. Or have I completely misunderstood and need to do some reading? Got some sites? Read up on 'contributory infringement' and remember US so called free speech is strictly and narrowly defined to be political speech. _AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora users need to be prepared to find information and resources elsewhere. So there should be an easy way to do this, right? poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 01:06 +0800, Fennix wrote:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 12:09 AM, Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:32 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
It's (traditional) C. Put it into a file like self-rep.c and
then
$ gcc -o self-rep self-rep.c
$ ./self-rep
and see what happens.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ gcc -o test test.c
test.c:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage
class
test.c:1: warning: initialization makes integer from pointer
without a
cast
test.c: In function 'main':
test.c:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of
built-in
function 'printf'
test.c:1: warning: passing argument 1 of 'printf' makes
pointer from
integer without a cast
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ ./test
p=p=%c%s%
c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);[EMAIL
PROTECTED]
~]$
That's what happened when doing it on a F9 box.
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Hmmm... c++ vs standard C?
It's not C++. The compiler warnings are because it violates the current
C standard regarding type safety. It would have compiled on a Unix
system 25 years ago without complaint, but now you'd need to add flags
to the gcc line to make it shut up.
poc
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 17:06 +, g wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip The 'database' is in the head of the person writing the answer - who is also likely to be the same person who just collated the relevant information into the wiki or recently read it there. Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. or, in other words, another 'faq'. so what you are saying is that this is not enough? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Main_Page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/Download#FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy/MailingLists?highlight=%28mailing+list%29 http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ if you believe that, then i would suggest that you contact rahul sundaram, as he is maintainer of 'wiki/faq'. i am sure that he would be interested in what you have to say, and more than happy to help you. Maybe these FAQs are good enough in terms of content (I don't know), but if newbies don't know about them and oldies very rarely refer to them then there's a piece missing. for 'fedora-list', there is https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/ one thing that may be lacking is a way to search archives. if there is a search engine to do this, i have not found it. This was discussed recently. Until shown otherwise, I stand by my theory that the lack of search is due to the list being managed by Mailman. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
_AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the Nvidia is a rather different case. original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora If they are shunned in official channels then how come there is a libflashsupport package. Clearly this URL is a figment of my imagination too: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JavaFAQ I think you need to take your anti-paranoia tablets. Alan -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thursday 28 August 2008 16:38:36 Les Mikesell wrote: Tim wrote: On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 08:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. Just like how people use Google instead of asking about something on a mailing list... ;-) Google is about as far from a specifically collated and indexed set of information as you can get. If you don't already almost know what you are looking for you are going to have a hard time sorting it out. And worse, old, incorrect information never dies there. A mail list provides timely/dated information but the questions and incorrect responses make it difficult to find the existing content. A wiki takes a little extra effort to maintain, but allows each person who uses the content to tweak it for correctness and their use cases. A wiki takes a *lot* of effort to maintain if you want it to stay relevant. Anne signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Alan Cox wrote: _AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the Nvidia is a rather different case. Not from the perspective of new users who have to re-configure their yum repositories to include an unmentionable site. original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora If they are shunned in official channels then how come there is a libflashsupport package. If it isn't shunned, why doesn't the adobe repository come pre-configured in yum? Or at least as a '--release' rpm that could be installed from an official site by feeding the URL to rpm? Clearly this URL is a figment of my imagination too: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JavaFAQ There's nothing on that page that would enable a new user to install a copy of Sun Java. That's slightly less important in f9 than it used to be but there are still plenty of things that won't work with openjdk. I think you need to take your anti-paranoia tablets. How many new users do you know that managed to get Sun Java and its browser plugin working correctly on fedora without using something like the K12LTSP spin? And how many did it following instructions provided by anyone related to fedora? Java has probably been worse than the other cases where anti-competitive spin regarding the included less functional versions was overwhelmingly provided instead of any help at installing what a user really needs to run existing java applications - even when other distributions made it a stock package. But the point I'm trying to make is that whether you interpret the missing information as legal constraints or political/business/philosophical agendas or just lack of time, it doesn't have to stop new users from finding it. It would just be nicer if there were some less-constrained, non-official, non-US site hosting a wiki to organize it (and perhaps those --release rpms to set up the missing yum repos). -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
g wrote: snip The 'database' is in the head of the person writing the answer - who is also likely to be the same person who just collated the relevant information into the wiki or recently read it there. Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. or, in other words, another 'faq'. so what you are saying is that this is not enough? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Main_Page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/Download#FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy/MailingLists?highlight=%28mailing+list%29 http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. if you believe that, then i would suggest that you contact rahul sundaram, as he is maintainer of 'wiki/faq'. i am sure that he would be interested in what you have to say, and more than happy to help you. Rahul is always gentlemanly enough to listen politely to other points of view, then he always responds - as he must - with the policy line. for 'fedora-list', there is https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/ one thing that may be lacking is a way to search archives. if there is a search engine to do this, i have not found it. also, if one wants to check other mail list archives; https://www.redhat.com/archives/[desired-list]/, replacing [desired-list] with name of list archive to see It is easy enough to obtain a list of thousands of references to any particular topic - but sorting out the correct/relevant answers is the hard part, especially when the right answer changes over time. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
g wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip The 'database' is in the head of the person writing the answer - who is also likely to be the same person who just collated the relevant information into the wiki or recently read it there. Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. or, in other words, another 'faq'. so what you are saying is that this is not enough? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Main_Page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/Download#FAQ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy/MailingLists?highlight=%28mailing+list%29 http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ if you believe that, then i would suggest that you contact rahul sundaram, as he is maintainer of 'wiki/faq'. i am sure that he would be interested in what you have to say, and more than happy to help you. for 'fedora-list', there is https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/ one thing that may be lacking is a way to search archives. if there is a search engine to do this, i have not found it. This is pretty useful: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=011057779923588025604%3Aakrqpglozlu -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Anne Wilson wrote: Just the same way things work now except that there would be less repetition and once a pattern of showing useful info in the wiki emerged, people would start to look there first. Just like how people use Google instead of asking about something on a mailing list... ;-) Google is about as far from a specifically collated and indexed set of information as you can get. If you don't already almost know what you are looking for you are going to have a hard time sorting it out. And worse, old, incorrect information never dies there. A mail list provides timely/dated information but the questions and incorrect responses make it difficult to find the existing content. A wiki takes a little extra effort to maintain, but allows each person who uses the content to tweak it for correctness and their use cases. A wiki takes a *lot* of effort to maintain if you want it to stay relevant. Anne Agreed, but there are a lot of people who can each contribute small portions - wikipedia being a large-scale example of the potential. It's really less effort than repeating things in an email list once a structure is established - at least for things that have 'right' answers. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Les Mikesell wrote: Agreed, but there are a lot of people who can each contribute small portions - wikipedia being a large-scale example of the potential. It's really less effort than repeating things in an email list once a structure is established - at least for things that have 'right' answers. rpmfusion.org already has a wiki which can be used if anybody is inclined. I don't think anybody is stopping people from signing up there and creating more content. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: _AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora users need to be prepared to find information and resources elsewhere. So there should be an easy way to do this, right? Yes, many other mail lists have been improved by adding related wikis. http://k12ltsp.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page http://backuppc.wiki.sourceforge.net/ are a couple that I know about. However, this is something of a special case in that there are reasons for it not to be closely associated with the project but you still need a single well-known location, at least as a starting point. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:38 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: Ralf Corsepius wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: [...] I agree heartily. I suggest that the non-technical/political aspects be reserved for another group, like Fedora-Advocacy or sth similar. You don't want to lean about your distro's heritage, backgrounds, objectives and the consequences of these? You want to keep you head in the sand - Ostrich policy? I don't need to learn.I first encountered Richard Stallman in 1986, and we exchanged several e-mails about his ideas at the time. Then you're better off not using open source software and to quit using Linux. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Les Mikesell wrote: That's slightly less important in f9 than it used to be but there are still plenty of things that won't work with openjdk. True but OpenJDK in Fedora 9 is 100% certified Java http://developer.redhatmagazine.com/2008/07/08/java-in-fedora-first/ You have argued before that, that the problems are due to the lack of official java moniker and that has never really been the case. The problems are either non-standard features used by Java applications or things not covered by the specification. For example, applets are not part of the tck test for compliance. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thursday 28 August 2008 20:15:17 Les Mikesell wrote: Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: _AND_ keep in mind that this has next-to-nothing to do with Nvidia or other vendor-provided drivers, commercial software (even free - in the original sense - stuff like VMware, flash, realplayer), or how to install Sun Java, yet they are all equally shunned subjects in official channels. That is their right, of course, but it means that fedora users need to be prepared to find information and resources elsewhere. So there should be an easy way to do this, right? Yes, many other mail lists have been improved by adding related wikis. http://k12ltsp.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page http://backuppc.wiki.sourceforge.net/ are a couple that I know about. However, this is something of a special case in that there are reasons for it not to be closely associated with the project but you still need a single well-known location, at least as a starting point. Since we're talking wikis, we are putting together one for all thinks kde. It's still very new - only went live this evening and most dns servers haven't picked it up yet, but the url is http://userbase.kde.org/. Some of the content is very new and some is rather old, and it needs much more input about applications. Until the migration of old wiki pages is complete, editing is restricted to a group, but registration will open soon. You can send ideas to me even before that. Anne signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 10:38 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
[...]
I first encountered Richard Stallman
in 1986, and we exchanged several e-mails about his ideas
at the time.
Then you're better off not using open source software and to quit using
Linux.
I'll bear your advice in mind. In fact, Solaris is an attractive
alternative.
Mike
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Rahul Sundaram wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: That's slightly less important in f9 than it used to be but there are still plenty of things that won't work with openjdk. True but OpenJDK in Fedora 9 is 100% certified Java http://developer.redhatmagazine.com/2008/07/08/java-in-fedora-first/ You have argued before that, that the problems are due to the lack of official java moniker and that has never really been the case. The problems are either non-standard features used by Java applications or things not covered by the specification. But that doesn't matter. Things work or not. And without a real Sun Java which could have been trivial to obtain/install, many things don't work. And instead of providing the trivial help to install a working java, someone must have spent an enormous amount of effort providing something sort-of-like java, ignoring the fact that it won't run everything that a user will need it to run. I'm sure it was an interesting project, but releasing it to end users in that state was just counterproductive regardless of your business/political/philosophical agenda for doing it. Going forward, now that Sun has removed any possible objection you could have to shipping their code, I expect this problem to just go away on its own but historically it has been a horrible user experience without any real justification. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Anne Wilson wrote: Since we're talking wikis, we are putting together one for all thinks kde. ^^ Very appropriate terminology, intentional or not. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Les Mikesell wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: That's slightly less important in f9 than it used to be but there are still plenty of things that won't work with openjdk. True but OpenJDK in Fedora 9 is 100% certified Java http://developer.redhatmagazine.com/2008/07/08/java-in-fedora-first/ You have argued before that, that the problems are due to the lack of official java moniker and that has never really been the case. The problems are either non-standard features used by Java applications or things not covered by the specification. But that doesn't matter. Sure, it does. Your claim was incorrect as I told you earlier and this only proves it. Things work or not. And without a real Sun Java which could have been trivial to obtain/install, many things don't work. And instead of providing the trivial help to install a working java, someone must have spent an enormous amount of effort providing something sort-of-like java, OpenJDK is Fedora 9 is officially Java and certified as such. You cannot continue to claim otherwise. If you still run into problems, you should be filing bug reports. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thursday 28 August 2008 21:47:04 Les Mikesell wrote:
Anne Wilson wrote:
Since we're talking wikis, we are putting together one for all thinks
kde.
^^
Very appropriate terminology, intentional or not.
Not :-) ('things', of course) My fingers do seem to get into a twist,
sometimes :-)
Anne
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
O If it isn't shunned, why doesn't the adobe repository come pre-configured in yum? Or at least as a '--release' rpm that could be installed from an official site by feeding the URL to rpm? Because Fedora is a free software distribution ? Because everyone making a Fedora CD would then have to signal a distribution contract with Adobe. Because every single package vendor on the planet would ask to be included and we'd have a million conflicting repositories. Because Adobe control it so the Fedora Project can't take responsibility for managing it for conflicts and bug handling ? And a few other reasons I am sure. Why not ask Microsoft why they don't include Linux install CDs in their Windows package... Clearly this URL is a figment of my imagination too: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JavaFAQ There's nothing on that page that would enable a new user to install a copy of Sun Java. That's slightly less important in f9 than it used to be but there are still plenty of things that won't work with openjdk. Sun choose not to provide a nice yummable rpm package but they've still made it pretty easy to install. There are indeed various things that don't work with OpenJDK - JMRI being a big one I make heavy use of. How many new users do you know that managed to get Sun Java and its browser plugin working correctly on fedora without using something like Dunno about the browser plug in but I've seen plenty of people do the rest without problems, including layering the J2ME devkit, Nokia phone simulators and other stuff on top. if there were some less-constrained, non-official, non-US site hosting a wiki to organize it (and perhaps those --release rpms to set up the missing yum repos). Go ahead - nobody is stopping you. Create the yummable repository of everything, negotiate all your need contracts and indemnities. Alan -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Oh dear me, paranoia pill dose is a bit low again The multi-media file thing was a good point once - and was addressed. Totem and friends now helpfully explain why your mp3 won't just play. Rahul is always gentlemanly enough to listen politely to other points of view, then he always responds - as he must - with the policy line. Definitely more pills needed. Alan -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Rahul Sundaram wrote: You have argued before that, that the problems are due to the lack of official java moniker and that has never really been the case. The problems are either non-standard features used by Java applications or things not covered by the specification. But that doesn't matter. Sure, it does. Your claim was incorrect as I told you earlier and this only proves it. That's a matter of opinion. It may matter to you why your 3rd party application doesn't run. It matters to me whether it runs or not. Things work or not. And without a real Sun Java which could have been trivial to obtain/install, many things don't work. And instead of providing the trivial help to install a working java, someone must have spent an enormous amount of effort providing something sort-of-like java, OpenJDK is Fedora 9 is officially Java and certified as such. You cannot continue to claim otherwise. If you still run into problems, you should be filing bug reports. Against what? Applications that specify that they require Sun Java 1.4 or 1.5? And what about that long history of shipping something known not to be Java? -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Alan Cox wrote: How many new users do you know that managed to get Sun Java and its browser plugin working correctly on fedora without using something like Dunno about the browser plug in but I've seen plenty of people do the rest without problems, including layering the J2ME devkit, Nokia phone simulators and other stuff on top. OK, your idea of a new user is clearly a lot different than mine. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Alan Cox wrote: Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Oh dear me, paranoia pill dose is a bit low again The multi-media file thing was a good point once - and was addressed. Totem and friends now helpfully explain why your mp3 won't just play. But why isn't quite the point, or what anyone wants to know. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu August 28 2008 19:40:10 Les Mikesell wrote: Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Well actually you only have to look to this list to find solutions for all these problems. Official Fedora people are bound and gagged, you me the Users can say and build what we like and help others do the same if they so wish. Just take the bits and mould them in your own image, Leave the politics for fedora legal. ...dex /me thinks we need another stanton-finley.net -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:04:19 -0500 Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan Cox wrote: Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Oh dear me, paranoia pill dose is a bit low again The multi-media file thing was a good point once - and was addressed. Totem and friends now helpfully explain why your mp3 won't just play. But why isn't quite the point, or what anyone wants to know. Which is why it also tells Americans where to go and buy codecs. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is why it also tells Americans where to go and buy codecs. I think it tells Germans as well. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
--- On Thu, 8/28/08, Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list To: Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 3:45 PM On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:04:19 -0500 Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan Cox wrote: Those are useful if you are curious about _why_ fedora doesn't play your multi-media files, run your java apps, or work with hardware that needs vendor-provided drivers. If you are interested in actually fixing these things you have to look elsewhere. Oh dear me, paranoia pill dose is a bit low again The multi-media file thing was a good point once - and was addressed. Totem and friends now helpfully explain why your mp3 won't just play. But why isn't quite the point, or what anyone wants to know. Which is why it also tells Americans where to go and buy codecs. -- Why buy the cow?, when you can get the milk for free! Regards. Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip Maybe these FAQs are good enough in terms of content (I don't know), but if newbies don't know about them and oldies very rarely refer to them then there's a piece missing. all of them were easily found by clicking menus at left of main pages. This was discussed recently. Until shown otherwise, I stand by my theory that the lack of search is due to the list being managed by Mailman. i really do not feel blame is 'mailman'. real answer is my reply to Antonio Olivares. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIt4Bq+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAnZbAJ901AemcpJKrhPTxI/HhI3+aIbXgQCfTWxp 9wrFWJWi3ar7ByJ7d9RmT2U= =qyMI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip Rahul is always gentlemanly enough to listen politely to other points of view, then he always responds - as he must - with the policy line. bull. he is very good at giving answers to questions. It is easy enough to obtain a list of thousands of references to any and so it would be with setting up and using a wiki. see my reply to Antonio Olivares. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIt4CE+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAtJfAJ90395rJrGvm87ArM7EBqAYriRdiwCgkeop 0yVsk66qTEhizKYj6F++TqM= =7Phe -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Antonio Olivares wrote: Why buy the cow?, when you can get the milk for free! exactly. why bother looking all over a web site when answers are just a mail list away. or, 'tough titty said the kitty, but the milk taste swell'. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIt4Cc+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAmFOAJ9fqbDuI7erl/pRS1dpawvxdLjO2ACfeBIs hLeV07Uz9R8p1HxGeUQgm34= =QZhK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tim wrote: snip g: pressing ctrl+u in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more light on what to do. as was pointed out, i used 'browsers' when i meant 'mail client'. tho with firefox, in similarity, you see page source. I don't know if the URI is obscurred on the HTML versions of the mail. But here, when I do get a HTML posting from the list, it's not. But that wasn't quite the point, it was the unsubscribe prompt associated with it. i do agree with your point. it is better defined in headers, ie; } Reply-To: For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com } List-Id: For users of Fedora fedora-list.redhat.com } List-Unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list, } mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] } List-Archive: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list } List-Post: mailto:fedora-list@redhat.com } List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] } List-Subscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list, } mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] and should be better defined in; -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIt4xT+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAtmPAJ9kQCV8gIxHdBD+ABzENPiDj+QyEwCgzYLG hFFBQxxuZ5FNULQ/Ie5vqS8= =3hdi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
* Ralf Corsepius [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20080826 21:36]: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement) Maybe. Maybe not. Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora) is a fully conscious active political statement/decision. Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a I picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be Linux. This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as a technical alternative to Vista, ... but whether you like it or not, Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether you agree to them or not. That is true. What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires technical assistance. (I've made this point before.) IMHO - the community would be much better served by letting the first list a new user subscribes to focus on help rather than indoctrination. After all, we do want more users, right? :) /Anders -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Paul W. Frields: maybe we should put a caveat emptor in the bit that the list management software applies to the end of every message? Only not so scary. James Wilkinson: If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a FAQ list? Possibly http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes? Yes, there should be something like that. People who sign up to the list should be presented with a link to the guidelines. It's a bit hard to expect people not to top-post if they've not been told that before they see/send any messages. On a similar note, the unsubscribe link on each message is rather offputting. People might avoid it, thinking that they'll unsubscribe themselves just by clicking on it. And conversely, people wanting to unsubscribe might be a bit bamboozled as to what to do next. There's got to be a simple way to say that it's for you subscription control, not just unsubscription. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tim wrote: snip On a similar note, the unsubscribe link on each message is rather pressing ctrl+u in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more light on what to do. problem is, not many know how to access 'headers'. much less that there is such a thing. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFItSF/+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAt8PAKCtN35cmYgyBuKUwRY4mIHaTpdq6QCfcf7b qtD1gHNkRlZ2qlLKHCl+Wn8= =4T2m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Anders Karlsson wrote: * Ralf Corsepius [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20080826 21:36]: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement) Maybe. Maybe not. Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora) is a fully conscious active political statement/decision. Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a I picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be Linux. This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as a technical alternative to Vista, ... but whether you like it or not, Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether you agree to them or not. That is true. What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires technical assistance. (I've made this point before.) You can't control who offers help or what terms they demand for it. I haven't seen anyone ram philosophicals down anyones throat. I have seen two or more eager parties go at it for weeks but I don't mind that, I will participate or I won't. IMHO - the community would be much better served by letting the first list a new user subscribes to focus on help rather than indoctrination. After all, we do want more users, right? :) If you want more users and less noise then you have to raise the bar. I like the fedora list but it seems that too often people are offered a solution with little or no explanation. Now you might say, who has the time? or they just want it to work. These attitudes promote ignorance. I personally want an explanation, I don't like blindly implementing other peoples ideas and in fact I don't. I don't ask for help too often here anymore, not because I don't need it but because I'll have to hunt down the explanation on my own, I figure while I am at it I might as well hunt down the solution too. Maybe its just people assuming the other OP has a certain level of knowledge but if they had that level of knowledge then I am guessing they wouldn't need help. Fact is I'd rather an explanation was offered than a solution. Solutions are often quite apparent when the situation is properly understood. I am in the minority on this I am sure. Should I go back and count how many flash threads I have stored in my archive? All started because someone didn't have sound on flash, how about all the bitching and moaning about KDE? Someone even attributed a quote bashing KDE to me, when in fact I like it, on the blog they pass off as news. How many other recurring questions can I find? lets seecodecs is another...shall I go on? You want a technical list? We need to start producing threads that really explain things so that people can get pointed to these messages to solve their problem, instead of rehashing the same shit over and over. I am not blaming the people that ask the questions, I am blaming the people that provide the answers. Instead of getting technical now the censorship is startingno I don't expect anyone will listen but i feel obligated to say it and no I am not interested in debating the matter I signed up for a technical discussion but its pretty thin around here. -Max -- Fortune favors the *BOLD* -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:42 +, g wrote: pressing ctrl+u in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more light on what to do. You mean mail clients. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 17:34 +0930, Tim wrote: Paul W. Frields: maybe we should put a caveat emptor in the bit that the list management software applies to the end of every message? Only not so scary. James Wilkinson: If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a FAQ list? Possibly http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes? Yes, there should be something like that. People who sign up to the list should be presented with a link to the guidelines. It's a bit hard to expect people not to top-post if they've not been told that before they see/send any messages. +1 to this. In fact +10 :-) On a similar note, the unsubscribe link on each message is rather offputting. People might avoid it, thinking that they'll unsubscribe themselves just by clicking on it. And conversely, people wanting to unsubscribe might be a bit bamboozled as to what to do next. There's got to be a simple way to say that it's for you subscription control, not just unsubscription. Yes, instead of To unsubscribe: it could say List options: or some such. I would propose something like: -- Fedora mailing list: fedora-list@redhat.com Please read the Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines Options: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:13 -0400, max wrote: You want a technical list? We need to start producing threads that really explain things so that people can get pointed to these messages to solve their problem, instead of rehashing the same shit over and over. I totally agree that this is needed, but I'm very sceptical about a mailing-list being the appropriate medium. The list can provide a gateway to the answers but any reasonably complete answer database has to be on a FAQ page somewhere. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:13 -0400, max wrote: You want a technical list? We need to start producing threads that really explain things so that people can get pointed to these messages to solve their problem, instead of rehashing the same shit over and over. I totally agree that this is needed, but I'm very sceptical about a mailing-list being the appropriate medium. The list can provide a gateway to the answers but any reasonably complete answer database has to be on a FAQ page somewhere. The ideal situation is to have volunteers that organize and maintain the answers to common questions on the mail list into a wiki so repeat questions can be answered with a link - or avoided by searching there first. However, most of the repeat questions regarding fedora involve things that can only be found in 3rd party repositories that for legal reasons are not mentioned, and probably can't be on any official fedora wiki either. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Anders Karlsson wrote:
* Ralf Corsepius [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20080826 21:36]:
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
(Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)
Maybe. Maybe not.
Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to
Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora)
is a fully conscious active political statement/decision.
Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a I
picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be
Linux.
That's my situation. I was requested by an employer who wanted
me to install it. I just haven't removed it, because it works.
This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as a
technical alternative to Vista, ... but whether you like it or not,
Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether
you agree to them or not.
That is true.
Umm, the distro does not come with strings attached. However help
from this forum often comes only with strings attached.
What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and
philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires
technical assistance. (I've made this point before.)
I agree heartily. I suggest that the non-technical/political aspects
be reserved for another group, like Fedora-Advocacy or sth similar.
IMHO - the community would be much better served by letting the first
list a new user subscribes to focus on help rather than
indoctrination. After all, we do want more users, right? :)
I agree heartily with this sentiment.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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RE: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
From: Les Mikesell The ideal situation is to have volunteers that organize and maintain the answers to common questions on the mail list into a wiki so repeat questions can be answered with a link - or avoided by searching there first. However, most of the repeat questions regarding fedora involve things that can only be found in 3rd party repositories that for legal reasons are not mentioned, and probably can't be on any official fedora wiki either. Huh? Is there something that can't be mentioned on this list? Can you provide an example? The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
RE: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:21 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there something that can't be mentioned on this list? Can you provide an example? You mean something like the following, that you sent: The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. ;-) Such boilerplate *nonsense* should not be sent to the list. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Not being a programmer or anything, WHAT in the heck IS that? LOL
I copied and pasted it into a bash shell and got error below..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ p=p=%c%s%
c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
bash: syntax error near unexpected token `{printf'
So what is that command and what do you get if it works?
(REALLY feel like a moron about now LOL)
--
Mike Chambers
Fedora Project - Ambassador, Bug Zapper, Tester, User, etc..
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Not being a programmer or anything, WHAT in the heck IS that? LOL
I copied and pasted it into a bash shell and got error below..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ p=p=%c%s%
c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
bash: syntax error near unexpected token `{printf'
So what is that command and what do you get if it works?
(REALLY feel like a moron about now LOL)
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Mike Chambers
Fedora Project - Ambassador, Bug Zapper, Tester, User, etc..
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
looks like perl to me -- not that I would execute random perl code
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( www.pembo13.com )
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 11:47 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: Anders Karlsson wrote: * Ralf Corsepius [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20080826 21:36]: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement) Maybe. Maybe not. Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora) is a fully conscious active political statement/decision. Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a I picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be Linux. That's my situation. I was requested by an employer who wanted me to install it. I just haven't removed it, because it works. Great, somebody made a decision for you. This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as a technical alternative to Vista, ... but whether you like it or not, Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether you agree to them or not. That is true. Umm, the distro does not come with strings attached. Of cause it does. You might want to have some closer looks into the details, e.g. think about why you can't find certain SW bundled with the distro, think about why some people are agitating against OSS licenses or subsets of them? A bit bluntly formulated: Linux is more than a simple OS, Linux is part of a sociological and political movement. What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires technical assistance. (I've made this point before.) Agreed, nevertheless, these folks should learn and understand about the backgrounds - It's why I am saying, restricting a fedora users-list to mere technical topics would be a severe mistake. I agree heartily. I suggest that the non-technical/political aspects be reserved for another group, like Fedora-Advocacy or sth similar. You don't want to lean about your distro's heritage, backgrounds, objectives and the consequences of these? You want to keep you head in the sand - Ostrich policy? Ralf -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:42 +, g wrote: pressing ctrl+u in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more light on what to do. You mean mail clients. yes i did. thank you for your keen eye. please note '09:42 +'. i had not had my coffee and my reading was groggier than my thinking and seeing. .o) - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIta/L+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAjg/AJ48/V5WSwkn2apKEBsMQDzx9zxZXwCcCKiZ wpq5zJEGilGnOiY7rgcmh60= =iD2A -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: SNIP I totally agree that this is needed, but I'm very sceptical about a mailing-list being the appropriate medium. The list can provide a gateway to the answers but any reasonably complete answer database has to be on a FAQ page somewhere. adding to your 'sig' can help. but then again, how many people read other peoples' 'sig'? - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFItbIA+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAg/9AJ9Ra2qJ+JRKXajHdR0uKBliH5+EAwCgwCJq 9IVJmkbyZ0lBxTpuBSBfBhQ= =XNld -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: snip The ideal situation is to have volunteers that organize and maintain the answers to common questions on the mail list into a wiki so repeat questions can be answered with a link - or avoided by searching there first. so then every one who is going to reply to a question is going to have a database on links to answer questions. i do not think so. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFItbU5+C4Bj9Rkw/wRApBZAJ9n0n2+eUOvUjo1jHME4qqk4kWYwwCdHAq3 jAaqGjV25YvgYoL0UUUJgqY= =i2wl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 13:18 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Not being a programmer or anything, WHAT in the heck IS that? LOL
It's C. There's a whole class of things like this. Google for
Obfuscated C Contest.
BTW it won't compile without a load of warnings. I can't be bothered
working out how to turn them off.
poc
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Self-printing program (was Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list)
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 16:54 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 13:18 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Not being a programmer or anything, WHAT in the heck IS that? LOL
It's C. There's a whole class of things like this. Google for
Obfuscated C Contest.
BTW it won't compile without a load of warnings. I can't be bothered
working out how to turn them off.
poc
This is a short program of the type that Thompson described in
Reflections on Trusting Trust[0]. This version can be compiled with
gcc (with one warning):
char* p=char*
p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
When run, it prints its own source code.
-Chris
[0] This is an amazing paper. It describes why you can't trust software
for which you have audited the source code and compiled your own binary.
Original PDF from the ACM site:
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210
or html format from Ken Thompson's site at Bell Labs:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
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Re: Self-printing program (was Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list)
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 18:46 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote: This is a short program of the type that Thompson described in Reflections on Trusting Trust[0]. [...] [0] This is an amazing paper. Agreed. It was Thompson's talk when he and Ritchie received the ACM Turing Award. Everyone with the slightest interest in security should read it once a year. It describes why you can't trust software for which you have audited the source code and compiled your own binary. Original PDF from the ACM site: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210 or html format from Ken Thompson's site at Bell Labs: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html I've more than once had to explain this to otherwise intelligent people who think they can, say, just run an auditing program to check if a voting machine is Trojanned. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:51 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote: The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. As Rahul said, that sounds official. I second his view that the description should make it clear that you're getting peer support. I don't quite think we need to go as far as what one of the Ubuntu forums did, in saying that you needed to be very careful of following the advice you receive, as it may be malicious. I haven't seen that sort of thing on this list (e.g. malcontents advising rm -rfd /*), but then we don't know what any private replies might say. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 05:55 +0100, dexter wrote: On Tue August 26 2008 04:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. It's good to see board members prepared to mix it with the great unwashed (err: users) but some questions: Is their an irc log of this public meeting?? I missed it. In this New low volume list, what who is off topic. How will this 'Help and support' take shape. More details/disscusion needed. No one implied this would be a low-volume list. Exactly the opposite; the high volume on fedora-list can continue unabated, but there's a better idea of what's on topic -- problems using Fedora, and how to fix them. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 09:43 +0200, Timothy Murphy wrote: Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. (1) I doubt if a change in the description of the list will make any difference. I for one long ago forgot the precise description, if I ever knew it. (2) I think the list works pretty well at present. The majority of postings seem to me to deal with problems that Fedora users have encountered. I think that's right. Having a better topic statement simply makes it easier for people to know when a discussion's off-topic, so they can have it elsewhere. Right now the statement is so general that it's difficult to know that. (3) The only way of reducing postings to the list - which seems to be the purpose of the exercise - would be to moderate it in some way. In my experience, moderating a newsgroup or mailing list involves a huge amount of time, which in your (or Paul Field's) case I would have thought would be better spent on something else. (note: Frields) :-) It's nice of you to be looking out for my time, and in all honesty I don't think I would have time to do true full-time moderation on a list with this much traffic. But I do check in on the list traffic from time to time just to see that folks are generally helping each other, in the spirit of the Fedora community. We want to gather a number of folks for this purpose because no one of us can do it all the time. (4) Basically, the proposal seems to be that the list should be censored in some way. I am not against that in principle, but I would like to know what would be disallowed. Eg would references to livna be removed? Not our purpose *at all*. We just want to work with the existing fedora-list community to ensure that users who are seeking help, advice -- hey Chris, there's another word you might want to use! -- and tips aren't overrun by threads on the composition of Gethsemane cheese. (Note to cheese lovers: Nothing against that type of cheese, I have personally enjoyed it many times.) Having a topical list is less confusing to users. I think in general this list does quite a good job of keeping on topic, but since other parts of our community have been on the receiving end of complaints, it would be unfair to ignore them. Changing the topic makes it clearer to people what's on-topic for this list, and it's easier to point to when someone goes off the topic. I don't foresee changing the way people give advice. That's what the community's all about -- helping each other. If you want to suggest that someone uses a solution from livna or some other third party repository as a way of helping that person, that's your prerogative as a helpful fellow community member. (5) The claim is that more experts would contribute to the list if it were shorter. I doubt if that is true; the reason experts do not contribute is that they are doing other things, eg contributing to bugzillas. In my experience, there are enough knowledgeable people on the list to give comprehensive answers to most queries. I'm not sure it's necessarily that the list is too high-volume in general, but that it's *perceived* to be high-volume because of a lot of off-topic chatter. I don't think that's a correct perception, but if we can help the perception by making sure the topic is clearer, that's a way of attracting more helpers on fedora-list. You're absolutely right that it might not help attract more experts, but it certainly couldn't hurt to clearly let users know what to expect on this list, could it? I don't take your statement to mean you don't want other helpers on this list, so if more people feel this is a good place to grow mutual support for using Fedora, I think you'd agree that's a worthy goal. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Chris Tyler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora Do you really mean 'fedora-list' and not 'fedora-users' or are you proposing a new list 'fedora-users'? Just want to be sure. The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Same comment. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. -- Chris Tyler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:52 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. Some clarification based on the discussion that's taken place (while I slept :-) ... - Yes, I meant fedora-list and not fedora-users (sorry!) - The intention is not to moderate or censor the list, but to make it more useful by clarifying the list description and encouraging participation in the list by more of the long-term community members. - Likewise, the intention is not to reduce the list traffic by moderation, but hopefully a clearer purpose and better participation will increase its value to the community. (Obviously, moderation is an option if things really get out of hand, but I don't think anyone really wants to go there, and moderating a high-volume list in a timely fashion is a huge task). - That the list needs some love is clearly shown by the 149 messages in the admin queue, dating back to early 2007 (mostly messages over the 60K length limit and messages with subjects like help and unsubscribe). There's been some great feedback and suggestions on the list description. How about this?-- fedora-list: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using the Fedora distribution. -- Chris -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tuesday 26 August 2008 00:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. -- Chris Tyler the using the Fedora distribution could be switched with using Fedora. Sounds more at home :) -- Armin -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Paul W. Frields wrote: You're absolutely right that it might not help attract more experts, but it certainly couldn't hurt to clearly let users know what to expect on this list, could it? I don't take your statement to mean you don't want other helpers on this list, so if more people feel this is a good place to grow mutual support for using Fedora, I think you'd agree that's a worthy goal. Anything that would bring in more experts would be excellent. I must say, I have asked many queries on the list on many aspects of Fedora, and had satisfying answers to almost all of them - most of the useful answers, I should say, coming from a very small phalanx of experts. Of the many lists and newsgroups I subscribe to, I would put the fedora list and comp.text.tex equal first, with sci.math unchallenged holder of the bottom place. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement) Maybe. Maybe not. Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora) is a fully conscious active political statement/decision. This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as a technical alternative to Vista, ... but whether you like it or not, Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether you agree to them or not. Ralf -- Registered Linux User #26 http://counter.li.org -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Paul W. Frields wrote: Good point Tim, maybe we should put a caveat emptor in the bit that the list management software applies to the end of every message? Only not so scary. If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a FAQ list? Possibly http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes? Thanks, James. -- E-mail: james@ | Please do not put sandwiches in the disk drive. aprilcottage.co.uk | -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am no newbie to Linux, and I consider it simply a technical alternative to other OS choices. Then I have to work harder to make sure you understand that this project is more than than the technical bits. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Mike McCarty
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am no newbie to Linux, and I consider it simply a technical
alternative to other OS choices.
Then I have to work harder to make sure you understand that this
project is more than than the technical bits.
The project may be, but my use of its results is not part of the
project.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:51:30 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. -- Chris Tyler I welcome the change, but what exactly is the difference? And how does this affect us? Will we find how to fix the bad flesh and the impulseaudio? -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. Historically we have avoided using the word support because for many people, it implied commercial support and to differentiate Fedora from RHEL. Not sure that is a problem anymore. Maybe the following is better: Community help and assistance for using the Fedora distribution of Linux Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list
On Tue August 26 2008 04:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote: This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community. However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't subscribed. As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current description of this list simply reads: fedora-users: For users of Fedora The proposed replacement is: fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution. Feedback on this proposed change is welcome. In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two experienced members of the community to join us. It's good to see board members prepared to mix it with the great unwashed (err: users) but some questions: Is their an irc log of this public meeting?? I missed it. In this New low volume list, what who is off topic. How will this 'Help and support' take shape. More details/disscusion needed. ...dex -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
