Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Aldo Foot wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 > > This week Announcements trumpets the arrival of a new version of Bodhi, > the freeze of Rawhide and some essential reading on the new package > keys. In Developments we shock you with > "Non-X System Consoles to be Removed". What is the point of removing the System Consoles? >>> Does this mean removing the console at ctrl-alt-F1? >> >> That's what I've gathered so far. > > You have gathered incorrectly. This whole thread is based on misconceptions. > Read > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-September/msg01417.html > > This is nothing new and how some other distributions have done things for > several years now. Move on folks. > > Rahul > Thanks for the clarification. I'll have to keep an eye on the fedora-devel-list. Using a kernel framebuffer is a great idea for working with a minimized X Windows environment. Good thing the 'nomodeset' option is there, otherwise newbies may have a tough time understanding kernel/video options to make the new concept work. But as you say it's nothing new. There are some troubleshooting utilities that use a few floppies to start a windows/gui environment and they work fine. ~af -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Aldo Foot wrote: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 This week Announcements trumpets the arrival of a new version of Bodhi, the freeze of Rawhide and some essential reading on the new package keys. In Developments we shock you with "Non-X System Consoles to be Removed". What is the point of removing the System Consoles? Does this mean removing the console at ctrl-alt-F1? That's what I've gathered so far. You have gathered incorrectly. This whole thread is based on misconceptions. Read https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-September/msg01417.html This is nothing new and how some other distributions have done things for several years now. Move on folks. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
>>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 >>> >>> This week Announcements trumpets the arrival of a new version of Bodhi, >>> the freeze of Rawhide and some essential reading on the new package >>> keys. In Developments we shock you with >>> "Non-X System Consoles to be Removed". >> >> What is the point of removing the System Consoles? >> >> > Does this mean removing the console at ctrl-alt-F1? That's what I've gathered so far. So now, what's going to be? There won't be any vt's when the X-Windows is running and if you press ctrl-alt-backspace you'll be drop to a text login? ~af -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/15/2008 06:46 AM, Dave Feustel wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 03:31:18PM +0530, Huzaifa Sidhpurwala wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Fedora Weekly News Issue 143 >> >> >> Welcome to Fedora Weekly News Issue 143 for the week ending September 7, >> 2008. >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 >> >> This week Announcements trumpets the arrival of a new version of Bodhi, >> the freeze of Rawhide and some essential reading on the new package >> keys. In Developments we shock you with >> "Non-X System Consoles to be Removed". > > What is the point of removing the System Consoles? > > Does this mean removing the console at ctrl-alt-F1? - -- Steve -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjRjzkACgkQeERILVgMyvD+pwCfYbT5WTl2Fom8zvvNJNG7tPXN wPkAni5cjoSIj+WPSqDzxTEq6Mc1kawz =/i7m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Dave Feustel wrote: > > Having spent some time running X on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Fedora, and now SUSE 11, > I am convinced that using X on any of these platforms enables exploits that > cannot be disabled. You cannot have both security and X. Take your pick. I do > not log in as root in X for any reason since there are ways in X to listen in > on keyboard communications and capture passwords. So far as I have been able > to > tell, this is not possible with non-X console io. > This is much harder to do with current versions of X. Unless you disable authorization, the X server will only talk to programs started by the user logged into the console. This includes logging into the cli as the user. (It is possible to do it as the user, or root, with some extra work.) As for reading a cli keyboard, you may want to look at the keybdev as well as the different keyboard drivers. I am not sure if it would be easier to modify one the keyboard drivers, or interface with keybdev - both look promising. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 05:50:18PM -0700, Rick Stevens wrote: > Dave Feustel wrote: > [snip] >>> 1. Machines do not have X installed and boot to run level 3 I did not write the above point 1. I did write the following: >> Having spent some time running X on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Fedora, and now SUSE >> 11, >> I am convinced that using X on any of these platforms enables exploits that >> cannot be disabled. You cannot have both security and X. Take your pick. I >> do >> not log in as root in X for any reason since there are ways in X to listen in >> on keyboard communications and capture passwords. So far as I have been able >> to >> tell, this is not possible with non-X console io. > > ANYTHING over the net can be hacked, given enough CPU cycles and time. > You can mitigate it requiring everything be heavily encrypted (including > X). It's not perfect, but it's as close as you're going to get. There > is such a thing as making a machine so secure it's unmanageable. I did not write the following: >>> 2. /etc/inittab modified to NOT spawn gettys on the VTs >>> 3. /etc/inittab spaws serial port getty connected to a serial KVM >>> 4. grub configured to also use the serial port for its console >>> >>> This is in addition to them being in cage with a deadbolt lock on the >>> door, and the cage being in a data center with physical access >>> restrictions, cardkey access and video surveillance. Yes, it's a bit >>> onerous, but it is required. Whether you think they're "good reasons" >>> is irrelevant. >> >> I have read that Congress passed a law in 1995 mandating undetectable >> hardware access to all computers connected to the internet. > > The law, IIRC, was held unconstitutional and the US Attorney stated that > it was unenforceable anyway. Subsequent laws may require it, but only > with a court order. I'm not sure how the Patriot Act (what a joke) > affects this. We don't care. We're PCI-compliant. If they want to see > our systems, they can get a court order and deal with our lawyers first. > > I mean, jeeze! Didn't we beat the Nazis some 65 years ago? Actually, the Allies defeated Germany in the war, but the German Nazis migrated to America. Google "operation paperclip" and/or read the book _Rise of the 4th Reich by Jim Marrs. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Dave Feustel wrote: [snip] 1. Machines do not have X installed and boot to run level 3 Having spent some time running X on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Fedora, and now SUSE 11, I am convinced that using X on any of these platforms enables exploits that cannot be disabled. You cannot have both security and X. Take your pick. I do not log in as root in X for any reason since there are ways in X to listen in on keyboard communications and capture passwords. So far as I have been able to tell, this is not possible with non-X console io. ANYTHING over the net can be hacked, given enough CPU cycles and time. You can mitigate it requiring everything be heavily encrypted (including X). It's not perfect, but it's as close as you're going to get. There is such a thing as making a machine so secure it's unmanageable. 2. /etc/inittab modified to NOT spawn gettys on the VTs 3. /etc/inittab spaws serial port getty connected to a serial KVM 4. grub configured to also use the serial port for its console This is in addition to them being in cage with a deadbolt lock on the door, and the cage being in a data center with physical access restrictions, cardkey access and video surveillance. Yes, it's a bit onerous, but it is required. Whether you think they're "good reasons" is irrelevant. I have read that Congress passed a law in 1995 mandating undetectable hardware access to all computers connected to the internet. The law, IIRC, was held unconstitutional and the US Attorney stated that it was unenforceable anyway. Subsequent laws may require it, but only with a court order. I'm not sure how the Patriot Act (what a joke) affects this. We don't care. We're PCI-compliant. If they want to see our systems, they can get a court order and deal with our lawyers first. I mean, jeeze! Didn't we beat the Nazis some 65 years ago? -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 - -- - The world is coming to an end ... SAVE YOUR FILES!!! - -- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:20:06AM -0700, Rick Stevens wrote: > Lyvim Xaphir wrote: >> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: >>> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand the thinking behind it. >>> Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message >>> on the fedora-test list: >>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html >>> which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up >>> code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. >>> >>> poc >>> >> >> >> It's still a stupid idea. There's no good reason to get rid of the vt >> consoles; they've been there for a very long time on rh, I use them all >> the time. As does alot of other people. As one other user pointed out >> on the link that *you provided, the lack of vt consoles is the number >> one problem with another distro, according to it's users. > > There are reasons for disabling consoles, however the term "good" is > subjective. For example, PCI compliance says that you must render the > machines as physically difficult to get into as you can. We, for > example, do the following: > > 1. Machines do not have X installed and boot to run level 3 Having spent some time running X on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Fedora, and now SUSE 11, I am convinced that using X on any of these platforms enables exploits that cannot be disabled. You cannot have both security and X. Take your pick. I do not log in as root in X for any reason since there are ways in X to listen in on keyboard communications and capture passwords. So far as I have been able to tell, this is not possible with non-X console io. > 2. /etc/inittab modified to NOT spawn gettys on the VTs > 3. /etc/inittab spaws serial port getty connected to a serial KVM > 4. grub configured to also use the serial port for its console > > This is in addition to them being in cage with a deadbolt lock on the > door, and the cage being in a data center with physical access > restrictions, cardkey access and video surveillance. Yes, it's a bit > onerous, but it is required. Whether you think they're "good reasons" > is irrelevant. I have read that Congress passed a law in 1995 mandating undetectable hardware access to all computers connected to the internet. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:20:06 -0700 Rick Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For example, PCI compliance says that you must render the machines as physically difficult to get into as you can. So, you let the Italian Communist Party dictate what you do? :-). That's what I love about acronyms...they can mean anything! ;-) -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 - -- - Errors have occurred. We won't tell you where or why. We have - - lazy programmers. - -- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:20:06 -0700 Rick Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For example, PCI compliance says that you must render the > machines as physically difficult to get into as you can. So, you let the Italian Communist Party dictate what you do? :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
> Mike Burger wrote: >>> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: >>> As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand the thinking behind it. >>> Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message >>> on the fedora-test list: >>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html >>> which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up >>> code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. >>> >> >> Now, I'm going to have to go back to the archives, and reread the start >> of >> this thread. I thought that the original poster was asking about doing >> so, not about the developers looking to do so. >> >> If I missed something in that, and that was not the original poster's >> question, then I stand corrected. >> >> > The OP asked the question: > > "What is the point of removing the System Consoles?" > > after referencing: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 > > Quote: > > At this point Colin Walters set off a firestorm of complaints and > queries when he announced[9], as an aside, that "[w]e're going to be > removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default in the long run." > > This appears to be related to kernel modesetting, also referenced by > this link in the same news letter: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting > > Quote: > > "...makes Fedora feel more like a polished, professional product." > > More like MS Windows, maybe? In that case, I misread the point of the original post, and stand corrected. I'll stand down, now. -- Mike Burger http://www.bubbanfriends.org Visit the Dog Pound II BBS telnet://dogpound2.citadel.org or http://dogpound2.citadel.org To be notified of updates to the web site, visit: https://www.bubbanfriends.org/mailman/listinfo/site-update or send a blank email message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand the thinking behind it. Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message on the fedora-test list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. poc It's still a stupid idea. There's no good reason to get rid of the vt consoles; they've been there for a very long time on rh, I use them all the time. As does alot of other people. As one other user pointed out on the link that *you provided, the lack of vt consoles is the number one problem with another distro, according to it's users. There are reasons for disabling consoles, however the term "good" is subjective. For example, PCI compliance says that you must render the machines as physically difficult to get into as you can. We, for example, do the following: 1. Machines do not have X installed and boot to run level 3 2. /etc/inittab modified to NOT spawn gettys on the VTs 3. /etc/inittab spaws serial port getty connected to a serial KVM 4. grub configured to also use the serial port for its console This is in addition to them being in cage with a deadbolt lock on the door, and the cage being in a data center with physical access restrictions, cardkey access and video surveillance. Yes, it's a bit onerous, but it is required. Whether you think they're "good reasons" is irrelevant. -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 - -- - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a - - rigged demo. - -- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
Mike Burger wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand the thinking behind it. Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message on the fedora-test list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. Now, I'm going to have to go back to the archives, and reread the start of this thread. I thought that the original poster was asking about doing so, not about the developers looking to do so. If I missed something in that, and that was not the original poster's question, then I stand corrected. The OP asked the question: "What is the point of removing the System Consoles?" after referencing: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue143 Quote: At this point Colin Walters set off a firestorm of complaints and queries when he announced[9], as an aside, that "[w]e're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default in the long run." This appears to be related to kernel modesetting, also referenced by this link in the same news letter: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting Quote: "...makes Fedora feel more like a polished, professional product." More like MS Windows, maybe? Bob -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: >> As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand >> the thinking behind it. > > Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message > on the fedora-test list: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html > which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up > code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. Now, I'm going to have to go back to the archives, and reread the start of this thread. I thought that the original poster was asking about doing so, not about the developers looking to do so. If I missed something in that, and that was not the original poster's question, then I stand corrected. -- Mike Burger http://www.bubbanfriends.org Visit the Dog Pound II BBS telnet://dogpound2.citadel.org or http://dogpound2.citadel.org To be notified of updates to the web site, visit: https://www.bubbanfriends.org/mailman/listinfo/site-update or send a blank email message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 10:40 -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: > > > As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand > > > the thinking behind it. > > > > Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message > > on the fedora-test list: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html > > which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up > > code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. > > > > poc > > > > > It's still a stupid idea. There's no good reason to get rid of the vt > consoles; they've been there for a very long time on rh, I use them all > the time. As does alot of other people. As one other user pointed out > on the link that *you provided, the lack of vt consoles is the number > one problem with another distro, according to it's users. AFAIK no-one is suggesting simply getting rid of the VT consoles without substituting something else. That would be a dumb idea and I doubt it's being considered. Alan's message enumerates the uses of VT and it's clear that these uses aren't going to go away. He even says this explicitly. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: > > As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand > > the thinking behind it. > > Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message > on the fedora-test list: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html > which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up code > and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. > > poc > It's still a stupid idea. There's no good reason to get rid of the vt consoles; they've been there for a very long time on rh, I use them all the time. As does alot of other people. As one other user pointed out on the link that *you provided, the lack of vt consoles is the number one problem with another distro, according to it's users. LX -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 09:11 -0400, Mike Burger wrote: > As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand > the thinking behind it. Sorry, but I think you don't. You might want to read Alan Cox's message on the fedora-test list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-September/msg00314.html which indicates that the motivation is much more to do with cleaning up code and APIs. I fact security isn't mentioned. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Removing System Consoles from Fedora
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Mike Burger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Mike Burger >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Mike Burger > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >>> Mike Burger wrote: >>> > What is the point of removing the System Consoles? Other than securing the system's keyboard/console from unintended login attempts? >>> >>> What exactly does this mean? >>> How does one make a login attempt without intending to? >> >> Sorry...allow me to be more clear: >> >> It would prevent attempts to access the system, at the console, by >> unauthorized persons who might otherwise have physical access to the >> box, >> but were not intended, by the system administrator, to actually have >> access to login to the system. >> >> I'm not saying I agree with it...just that I understand the thinking >> behind the question. >> > > I thought thats what passwords were for? Passwords *can* be cracked/hacked/obtained by unscrupulous individuals. >>> >>> How is that different when logging on to a X session? >> >> Do you mean other than having the physical access to the machine, which >> an >> X session does not afford you? >> > > If I am unscrupulous to have someone's password, and I have physical > access to a host, how is removing console sessions going to stop me > logging into that host? > > This is aside from the fact that someone who has physical access to a > host can break in very easily without having any passwords. As I said...I don't agree with it...I'm just saying that I understand the thinking behind it. -- Mike Burger http://www.bubbanfriends.org Visit the Dog Pound II BBS telnet://dogpound2.citadel.org or http://dogpound2.citadel.org To be notified of updates to the web site, visit: https://www.bubbanfriends.org/mailman/listinfo/site-update or send a blank email message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
