Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
 about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)

This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due to your 
setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my system, which 
uses maildir over imap.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Christoph Höger
Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
  Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
  about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
 
 This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due to 
 your 
 setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my system, which 
 uses maildir over imap.

Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP it's
IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.

But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.


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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Anne Wilson
On Friday 04 September 2009 11:23:53 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
  On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
   Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
   about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
 
  This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due to
  your setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my
  system, which uses maildir over imap.

 Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
 proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
 support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP it's
 IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.

 But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
 KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.

This is my last word on this.  You are talking utter nonsense.  I do not use 
any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird with maildir mail 
over imap.  Your 'Maildir' reference shows that you refuse to understand that 
the format and the directory are totally unrelated.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Anne Wilsonan...@kde.org wrote:
 On Friday 04 September 2009 11:23:53 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
  On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
   Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
   about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
 
  This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due to
  your setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my
  system, which uses maildir over imap.

 Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
 proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
 support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP it's
 IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.

 But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
 KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.

 This is my last word on this.  You are talking utter nonsense.  I do not use
 any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird with maildir mail
 over imap.  Your 'Maildir' reference shows that you refuse to understand that
 the format and the directory are totally unrelated.


Unfortunately, it was you who misunderstood the problem.

Thunderbird *does not* support Maildir format. There is a bug for it
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58308). It's 9 years
old, and still valid… (beats even KMail)

KMail does support Maildir format, but it moves all mails to its own
internal storage.

Setting up IMAP server and accessing the mail with this protocol
avoids both problems. But we would like to access Maildirs directly,
without IMAP, and without having all its content moved somewhere to
void. Which is exactly what KMail does, and the original question is:
How to avoid this behavior?

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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Christoph Höger
Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 12:27 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
 On Friday 04 September 2009 11:23:53 Christoph Höger wrote:
  Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
   On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
  
   This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due to
   your setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my
   system, which uses maildir over imap.
 
  Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
  proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
  support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP it's
  IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.
 
  But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
  KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.
 
 This is my last word on this.  You are talking utter nonsense.  I do not use 
 any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird with maildir mail 
 over imap.

You say it: OVER IMAP! YOU USE IT OVER IMAP! This is the whole point.
Calling my statements nonsense is bullshit!
I simply do not want to run an IMAP server on my notebook to allow kmail
read my maildir!



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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Tim
On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 12:27 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
 I do not use any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird
 with maildir mail over imap

For some parts of this conversation, you can equate proxy and server.
i.e. Directly accessing messages as local files with your mail client,
versus indirectly (however that's being achieved).

If you use IMAP, then the IMAP server's configuration determines how it
stores your mail (maildir, mbox, or otherwise).  Your mail client
doesn't control that, at all, doesn't care, and doesn't even know.  Your
mail client may also keep a local cache, and it can do that however it
likes.

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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Gene Heskett
On Friday 04 September 2009, Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Anne Wilsonan...@kde.org wrote:
 On Friday 04 September 2009 11:23:53 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
  On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
   Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not
   talking about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
 
  This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files - due
  to your setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does on my
  system, which uses maildir over imap.

 Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
 proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
 support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP it's
 IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.

 But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
 KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.

 This is my last word on this.  You are talking utter nonsense.  I do not
 use any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird with
 maildir mail over imap.  Your 'Maildir' reference shows that you refuse
 to understand that the format and the directory are totally unrelated.

Unfortunately, it was you who misunderstood the problem.

Thunderbird *does not* support Maildir format. There is a bug for it
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58308). It's 9 years
old, and still valid… (beats even KMail)

KMail does support Maildir format, but it moves all mails to its own
internal storage.

Which, for some reason, you haven't found.  FYI it will be to ~/Mail.
The rest is up to you.

Setting up IMAP server and accessing the mail with this protocol
avoids both problems. But we would like to access Maildirs directly,
without IMAP, and without having all its content moved somewhere to
void. Which is exactly what KMail does, and the original question is:
How to avoid this behavior?


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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Anne Wilson
On Friday 04 September 2009 13:25:48 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 12:27 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
  On Friday 04 September 2009 11:23:53 Christoph Höger wrote:
   Am Freitag, den 04.09.2009, 10:43 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
On Thursday 03 September 2009 19:02:33 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not
 talking about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)
   
This is nonsense.  It may not be able to read your maildir files -
due to your setup - but it can certainly read maildir mail.  It does
on my system, which uses maildir over imap.
  
   Thunderbird has no support for maildir. That's it. You can of course
   proxy your mail through whatever protocol you want. But there is no
   support of maildir! There is no Maildir Mail btw. if you use IMAP
   it's IMAP and no Maildir is visible anymore.
  
   But that is way offtopic: The original problem is that you cannot use
   KMail to work on a Maildir without killing the whole maildir.
 
  This is my last word on this.  You are talking utter nonsense.  I do not
  use any kind of proxy and I do use both kmail and thunderbird with
  maildir mail over imap.

 You say it: OVER IMAP! YOU USE IT OVER IMAP! This is the whole point.
 Calling my statements nonsense is bullshit!
 I simply do not want to run an IMAP server on my notebook to allow kmail
 read my maildir!

You do not need to.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-04 Thread Christoph Höger

 You do not need to.

Then: How can I make kmail behave sane? 
Again, to make my point clear: My email is and will stay stored on my
hard disk. No servers. No sockets. No IMAP/POP/whatever. Simple plain
Maildir.
And /me wants to access it with _multiple_ clients. I do not want kmail
to take my mail as hostage!


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kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Christoph Höger
Hi guys,

I recently tried KDE 4.3 and despite some gfx performance flaws this one got me 
screaming:
I installed kdepim 4.3 and run kmail, setup my maildir as inbox and the first 
thing I noticed: All mails were new, odd I thought and wanted to take a look 
at my maildir via mutt. To my surprise: My INBOX was empty now. RGHH. ALL 
MAILS GONE!

Is this really the way to go? Is there no way to keep a sync between the 
maildir and akonadi?

regards,

Christoph

ps: sent by mutt ;)

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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 13:39:36 Christoph Höger wrote:
 Hi guys,

 I recently tried KDE 4.3 and despite some gfx performance flaws this one
 got me screaming: I installed kdepim 4.3 and run kmail, setup my maildir as
 inbox and the first thing I noticed: All mails were new, odd I thought
 and wanted to take a look at my maildir via mutt. To my surprise: My INBOX
 was empty now. RGHH. ALL MAILS GONE!

 Is this really the way to go? Is there no way to keep a sync between the
 maildir and akonadi?

Are you using standard packages?  I have three installations all running KDE 
4.3, and all using KMail to access IMAP mail.  I have no such problem, so the 
question is, what is different about your install?

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Christoph Höger
Am Donnerstag, den 03.09.2009, 14:47 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 13:39:36 Christoph Höger wrote:
  Hi guys,
 
  I recently tried KDE 4.3 and despite some gfx performance flaws this one
  got me screaming: I installed kdepim 4.3 and run kmail, setup my maildir as
  inbox and the first thing I noticed: All mails were new, odd I thought
  and wanted to take a look at my maildir via mutt. To my surprise: My INBOX
  was empty now. RGHH. ALL MAILS GONE!
 
  Is this really the way to go? Is there no way to keep a sync between the
  maildir and akonadi?
 
 Are you using standard packages?  I have three installations all running KDE 
 4.3, and all using KMail to access IMAP mail.  I have no such problem, so the 
 question is, what is different about your install?

I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.


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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš
2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
 I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
 inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.


https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421

KMail can't do this. And it doesn't support Akonadi (which can do this) yet.
So IMAP is the only way...

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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Christoph Höger

 KMail can't do this. And it doesn't support Akonadi (which can do this) yet.
 So IMAP is the only way...

KMail can't do what? Simply reading Maildirs?


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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:41:20 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
 2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
  I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
  inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.

 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421

That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.

 KMail can't do this. And it doesn't support Akonadi (which can do this)
 yet. So IMAP is the only way...

I'm still not sure just what Honza is actually doing.  I suspect that he may 
be trying to use a mailbox set up by another client, in which case he will 
have to import his mail.

We need a great deal more information before there is any possibility of 
helping him.  I've been using KMail for 7  years, and not only have I never 
seen KMail eat mail, I've never seen anyone else experience it either.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:41:20 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
 2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
  I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
  inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.

 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421

 KMail can't do this. And it doesn't support Akonadi (which can do this)
 yet. So IMAP is the only way...

Sorry, in the preceding mail I referred to Honza, when I meant I didn't 
understand what Christophe was actually doing.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Christoph Höger
Am Donnerstag, den 03.09.2009, 16:23 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:41:20 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
  2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
   I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
   inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.
 
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421
 
 That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.
 
  KMail can't do this. And it doesn't support Akonadi (which can do this)
  yet. So IMAP is the only way...
 
 I'm still not sure just what Honza is actually doing.  I suspect that he may 
 be trying to use a mailbox set up by another client, in which case he will 
 have to import his mail.
 
 We need a great deal more information before there is any possibility of 
 helping him.  I've been using KMail for 7  years, and not only have I never 
 seen KMail eat mail, I've never seen anyone else experience it either.

It's easy to reproduce: Set up a Maildir (again: I am talking about the
Maildir format!) and put some mail in it. Then try to add that Maildir
to your account. After this reading that Maildir with mutt will show an
empty folder. 
This is clearly a design flaw: Any Mailclient that reads a Maildir
should not modify it's content without explicit permission by the user.




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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Anne Wilsonan...@kde.org wrote:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:41:20 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
 2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
  I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
  inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.

 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421

 That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.


I'd like to be wrong, but I'm afraid that the bug is still (yes, I
know how old it is) completely relevant, unfortunately.

If it wasn't, there would be a way to set up KMail to directly use a
Maildir placed somewhere in my $HOME and not copy or move any mail to
its own storage. In the same way that, for example, mutt does. I tried
to find how to do that, and failed miserably…

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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Christoph Höger
Am Donnerstag, den 03.09.2009, 18:55 +0100 schrieb Anne Wilson:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 16:32:28 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
   https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421
  
   That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.
 
  I'd like to be wrong, but I'm afraid that the bug is still (yes, I
  know how old it is) completely relevant, unfortunately.
 
 I've just read the bug report again.  It says that, due to the way kmail 
 works, it is not possible to read mail in other agents.  This is demonstrably 
 false.  Thunderbird and seamonkey have to problem whatsoever in reading the 
 mail - I haven't used any others.  The bug report replies did attempt to show 
 some of the other issues that may be confusing the reporter.

Thunderbird is not even able to read maildir. Again: We're not talking
about IMAP here (where this is a design principle) ;)


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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 16:32:28 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Anne Wilsonan...@kde.org wrote:
  On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:41:20 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
  2009/9/3 Christoph Höger choe...@cs.tu-berlin.de:
   I am using no IMAP. This is a plain Maildir. I simply have my mails
   inside a good old maildir - which is emptied by KMail.
 
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421
 
  That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.

 I'd like to be wrong, but I'm afraid that the bug is still (yes, I
 know how old it is) completely relevant, unfortunately.

 If it wasn't, there would be a way to set up KMail to directly use a
 Maildir placed somewhere in my $HOME and not copy or move any mail to
 its own storage. In the same way that, for example, mutt does. I tried
 to find how to do that, and failed miserably…

I'm sorry, I simply don't understand this thread.  Some time back - not as far 
as 2003, I think, Mandriva stored mail in ~/Mail - and kmail always worked 
with it.  I have never seen any indication that KMail either copies or moves 
mail from its origin.

The whole discussion is being made inpenetrable, too, by the use of a mail 
format name as a directory.  Maildir is a format, as is mbox.  What format of 
mail is this question about?

Christoph seems to say that he is talking about the Maildir format. If he 
looks, for instance, at Inbox he will see no mail.  If he looks at Inbox/cur 
his mail should be there.

I use maildir format, with kmail, for my mail, and thunderbird has no 
difficulty finding it.  I have never used mutt, but I suggest that it may well 
be looking in the wrong place.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Anne Wilson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 16:32:28 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421
 
  That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.

 I'd like to be wrong, but I'm afraid that the bug is still (yes, I
 know how old it is) completely relevant, unfortunately.

I've just read the bug report again.  It says that, due to the way kmail 
works, it is not possible to read mail in other agents.  This is demonstrably 
false.  Thunderbird and seamonkey have to problem whatsoever in reading the 
mail - I haven't used any others.  The bug report replies did attempt to show 
some of the other issues that may be confusing the reporter.

Anne
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Re: kmail eating my maildir???

2009-09-03 Thread Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Anne Wilsonan...@kde.org wrote:
 On Thursday 03 September 2009 16:32:28 Honza 'thingwath' Bartoš wrote:
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55421
 
  That bug report was in 2003, and is totally irrelevant to today's KMail.

 I'd like to be wrong, but I'm afraid that the bug is still (yes, I
 know how old it is) completely relevant, unfortunately.

 I've just read the bug report again.  It says that, due to the way kmail
 works, it is not possible to read mail in other agents.  This is demonstrably
 false.  Thunderbird and seamonkey have to problem whatsoever in reading the
 mail - I haven't used any others.  The bug report replies did attempt to show
 some of the other issues that may be confusing the reporter.

 Anne

It's really easy to reproduce.

Create a Maildir directory (~/mail-to-lose) and copy an existing
maildir there. Then create new KMail account, select Local maildir (or
something like that, I use KMail with czech l10n) and set the path
(~/mail-to-lose). Before I press check the mail button,
~/mail-to-lose is about 10MB in size. After I press the button, I see
~1000 new mails in KMail, but ~/mail-to-lose is empty. All the mail
went somewhere to .kde/share/apps/kmail/mail/inbox/. And I can't see
any option to tell KMail just keep the mail in ~/mail-to-lose.
Because, most likely, there isn't any.

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