Re: store SIG?
> 2008/10/26 Ian Weller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> Hey all, >> >> I haven't heard a thing about the Store SIG [1] for months. Is that >> still going on behind the scenes or does it need revived? The Store SIG is pretty much dead, AFAICS. But I'm actually thinking about just opening a store at spreadshirt.net (or similar) for Europe. There's been too much talking about this topic instead of just realizing the simple idea. If nobody has a sound objection, I'm going to propose/discuss this shortly at the upcoming FAD EMEA 2008 in Basel in mid-November before opening such a store for Europe (except France, where such a shop exists already). It's time to act. -- red -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: [Ambassadors] Re: store SIG?
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Clint Savage wrote: There was some discussion about reviving it FADNA this last month. Not sure there was a conclusion other than to say that we all were interested in discussing it more and getting it going IIRC. IMHO, the Store SIG was a more interesting idea before we got to the point where NA and EMEA ambassadors are both regionally self-sufficient in producing all the things they need. It seems like the evolution of Ambassadors may have rendered one of the Store SIG's goals irrelevant. That's not a bad thing -- progress was made on the root problem, just in a different way. Personally, I think the Store SIG can be retired for the time being. --Max -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: [Ambassadors] Re: store SIG?
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > IMHO, the Store SIG was a more interesting idea before we got to the > point where NA and EMEA ambassadors are both regionally self-sufficient > in producing all the things they need. I think that's true for ambassadors producing the polos and swag they need for events. But we'd still need a store for people who want to buy some merchandise over the internet. The online store can also offer more different products (with different printings) than we can at an event (because we're restricted in money to stock those things and in space to offer them at the events). -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas revisited
> I think OpenOffice.org ought to be by default on the gnome live cd because > everyone I know use it. I think Microsoft Office ought to be by default on each and every Fedora liveCD because everyone I know use it... The question is not what people want, but what Fedora wants to achieve. ;) -- Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) French Fedora Ambassador -- "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: New Interview! Better startup
On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 18:51 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > 2008/10/21 Nicu Buculei : > >> Jon, can you install a "digg this" widget on the blog? > >> http://digg.com/tools/integrate > >> Or maybe a widget to submit to multiple social networks. > > > > Wish I could. Seeing as we're not on Fedora infra yet, I can only > > enable what wordpress.com gives, and that doesn't seem to include > > digg/social network submission :( I agree it would be really nice 'cos > > I hate doing the submissions myself... > > But I think you still can add by hand this code to each post: > > > digg_url = 'ARTICLE_URL'; > > http://digg.com/tools/diggthis.js"; > type="text/javascript"> Can't you put that in to the PHP template? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Community Gardener Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: New Interview! Better startup
> Can't you put that in to the PHP template? If we were working on Fedora's servers, yes I think so. As we're on WP.com, I don't think we can without paying... Jon -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:13 -0300, Rafael Gomes wrote: > I agree 100% too, but we can do one of the two options: > > First, ask to upstream change this options to improve the life of > end-users or change this options in Fedora. The confusion I have reading the several replies you are all agreeing to is this: * People agree we need to work with upstream and not change their software, but * People agree we need to change the upstream software For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently. Any bug reports need to include a list of all the changes we made to the defaults, giving Fedora more to maintain. All based on some instincts and reports that really should be made as bug reports and observations directly to the upstream! There is very little benefit to Fedora, our users, and the overall community for us to focus on changes we can make to upstream to improve our own user's experience. If they change is valid and worthwhile, it needs to happen in the upstream. - Karsten > 2008/10/24 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote: > >> > >> Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to alter upstream > >> software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be! > >> > >> The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In > >> fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as long > >> as > >> the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating system. And the > >> GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are somethings that don't > >> imply altering the core of upstream projects in order to make the "out of > >> the box" user experience more happy :) > >> > >> A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when > >> entering GNOME on Fedora: > >> > >> gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true > >> > >> Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any rc.local > >> file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora Project should > >> make > >> the end-user experience a lot better. And it does not require any upstream > >> intervention or any opinion change by GNOME upstream team. And is very > >> simple to maintain. And that's it, the end-user would enter Fedora for the > >> first time and would not complain about a zilion windows opening every time > >> he clicks on a folder. > >> > >> It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that makes > >> the user experience better and does not require huge changes on coding. I > >> think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay attention to, > >> as > >> you adequately put. > >> > > I agree 100% here. > > > > There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user > > friendly to the end-user. > > ( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun going > > backwards on usability > > it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain > > options, buttons to be there along > > with hints if uncertain of how to do things ) > > > > Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and address > > those issues. > > ( if possible ). > > > > It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if Fedora > > does not make > > good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to get > > involved? > > > > Best regards > > Johann B. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > > -- > Rafael Gomes > Consultor em TI > Embaixador Fedora > LPIC-1 > (71) 8709-1289 > -- Karsten Wade, Community Gardener Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: developers vs grandmas
On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 12:43 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Arnav Kalra escribió: > > why dont we have a control panel type of thing in which all the bugs > > are saved and sent to bugzilla whenever that computer connects to > > internet > Automated submissions are not as reliable as the person in question > describing what was s/he doing when the problem showed. These are discussions to have on fedora-devel-list. As interesting as it is, nothing that occurs on this list is going to make a difference; marketing does not drive the course of development. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Community Gardener Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
I beg to differ regarding this comment: "For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently." The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc. Another single line there changing nautilus wouldn´t imply altering upstream, just as the above changes don´t. Maybe a little effort in some areas like this one should be considered. That is my suggestion. We must also take into consideration that many bug reports remain open forever, without any feedback. I have some like that filed by myself. And it gets worse if the enhancement suggested might go against the upstream´s point of view. Anyway, I think the issue is important and I hope the list receives my comments with an open spirit. All I say is in the best interests of end-users. It´s important such issues are discussed. Thanks a lot for the points that have been made so far. Karsten 'quaid' Wade escreveu: On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:13 -0300, Rafael Gomes wrote: I agree 100% too, but we can do one of the two options: First, ask to upstream change this options to improve the life of end-users or change this options in Fedora. The confusion I have reading the several replies you are all agreeing to is this: * People agree we need to work with upstream and not change their software, but * People agree we need to change the upstream software For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently. Any bug reports need to include a list of all the changes we made to the defaults, giving Fedora more to maintain. All based on some instincts and reports that really should be made as bug reports and observations directly to the upstream! There is very little benefit to Fedora, our users, and the overall community for us to focus on changes we can make to upstream to improve our own user's experience. If they change is valid and worthwhile, it needs to happen in the upstream. - Karsten 2008/10/24 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote: Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to alter upstream software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be! The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as long as the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating system. And the GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are somethings that don't imply altering the core of upstream projects in order to make the "out of the box" user experience more happy :) A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when entering GNOME on Fedora: gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any rc.local file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora Project should make the end-user experience a lot better. And it does not require any upstream intervention or any opinion change by GNOME upstream team. And is very simple to maintain. And that's it, the end-user would enter Fedora for the first time and would not complain about a zilion windows opening every time he clicks on a folder. It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that makes the user experience better and does not require huge changes on coding. I think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay attention to, as you adequately put. I agree 100% here. There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user friendly to the end-user. ( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun going backwards on usability it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain options, buttons to be there along with hints if uncertain of how to do things ) Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and address those issues. ( if possible ). It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if Fedora does not make good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to get involved? Best regards Johann B. -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Rafael Gomes Consultor em TI Embaixador Fedora LPIC-1 (71) 8709-1289 __ Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
> We must also take into consideration that many bug reports remain open > forever, without any feedback. I have some like that filed by myself. And it > gets worse if the enhancement suggested might go against the upstream´s > point of view. The bug triage team are working very hard on this, and if you're interested, I'd suggest you chat to them about ways you can help improve their work further :) > > Anyway, I think the issue is important and I hope the list receives my > comments with an open spirit. All I say is in the best interests of > end-users. It´s important such issues are discussed. As Karsten said, I would definitely recommend taking this conversation to the devel list, as people there are the one's who will implement future changes. Jon -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: [Ambassadors] Re: store SIG?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Sandro red Mathys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Store SIG is pretty much dead, AFAICS. But I'm actually thinking about > just opening a store at spreadshirt.net (or similar) for Europe. There's > been too much talking about this topic instead of just realizing the > simple idea. As Clint mentioned the Store SIG was discussed at the FADNA this year in Ohio. I was able to show the various quality of shirts from cafepress and spreadshirt in comparison to a similar shirt actually made at a screen printer. Though the color accuracy of spreadshirt is off a bit, it was deemed close enough to not be a major issue. While setting up the store seems simple there are a couple of details that need decided. One was what potential ramifications does it have on Fedora Project to sell items with a small profit. In the US that would require reporting said profit which Fedora Project is not really in the position to do. The EMEA group would likely be able to work around this by opening the store under their control and having it fall under the non-profit status. We do not have that in the US as of now. The other issue, which largely just requires some organization is to make sure access to the behind the scenes portion of the store is not left to a single person. People get busy and their amount of time to volunteer varies. So having a group of trusted people to manage the store is important as well - again, not a major issue but a decision that does need made. The Store SIG was also attempting to provide a front-end at store.fp.o to lead people to the on demand vendor of choice. That way ambassadors and such could easily refer people to store.fp.o when a person wanted to order an item from the store. Another decision the Store SIG had to reach was whether a single entity could serve everyone. After looking at the various options it is most likely that one store cannot adequately serve all areas of the world. Spreadshirt does lend itself well though to having one based in the European region and a second in the North American region to get started - though they would be two separate stores - they could be given a similar look and feel. Also, the French already have a spreadshirt store, so it might be wise for the EMEA to see about working with them to avoid paying the annual fees to have a customizable store twice. Thanks, Jeffrey -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote: I beg to differ regarding this comment: "For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently." The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc. These changes are made only for the live cd environment to make Fedora more suitable as a live CD. You would lose them all once you install it however. It appears that a nautilus change only for the live cd environment doesn't add any real value and hence changing the default file manager behavior is different from the other non-persistent changes you have pointed out. Rahul -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: New Interview! Better startup
Jonathan Roberts wrote: After the longest time, I've finally put together a new developer interview. This week's is with Ray Strode and Adam Jackson about the better startup feature. You can find it at http://fedoramagazine.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/interview-fedora-10s-better-startup/ Thanks go to Ray and Adam for helping me out with this. There's another interview to follow next week too, so hopefully I'm geting on a bit of a role with this :) I send it over to http://www.osnews.com/story/20435/Interview_Fedora_10_s_Better_Startup Will send it to LWN and distrowatch as well. If you can submit to Lxer, Linux today and slashdot, that would be good. I suspect slashdot might publish this as well: http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/fedora-10-a-detailed-discussion-on-the-features/ Rahul -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
Sure! But the idea behind it is what is valuable, I think! It shows a simple local file could improve the user experience without having to alter upstream hard-code, and in an easy to maintain manner. Why not do it in a persistent way locally, by Fedora Project, the same way logos, for example, are maintained? Well, if the name of this list is "expanding the Fedora user base", I think this is a tiny thing that would do it. But, anyway, this is just my humble opinion (based on what I hear from users near me). I certainly do not want to populate the wrong list if this is considered to be the case. Thanks for your comments. Rahul Sundaram escreveu: Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote: I beg to differ regarding this comment: "For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently." The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc. These changes are made only for the live cd environment to make Fedora more suitable as a live CD. You would lose them all once you install it however. It appears that a nautilus change only for the live cd environment doesn't add any real value and hence changing the default file manager behavior is different from the other non-persistent changes you have pointed out. Rahul -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Re: Developers vs Grandmas
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote: Sure! But the idea behind it is what is valuable, I think! It shows a simple local file could improve the user experience without having to alter upstream hard-code, and in an easy to maintain manner. Why not do it in a persistent way locally, by Fedora Project, the same way logos, for example, are maintained? Well, if the name of this list is "expanding the Fedora user base", I think this is a tiny thing that would do it. But, anyway, this is just my humble opinion (based on what I hear from users near me). I certainly do not want to populate the wrong list if this is considered to be the case. Thanks for your comments. If there is value in changing the setting, then there is value in discussing how disruptive it is. IMO, we haven't established that there is enough reasons for changing the settings beyond personal preferences. Since, there is already a discussion on this, in fedora-desktop list, I would recommend joining that if you have additional input. Rahul -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
